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Regional Boards => Ohio Valley => Topic started by: bandit957 on February 08, 2018, 09:18:57 PM

Title: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: bandit957 on February 08, 2018, 09:18:57 PM
Why???

S.B. 136 is a bill in Kentucky that would rename all the formerly toll "parkways" to "freeways." For instance, the Audubon Parkway would become the Audubon Freeway, etc.

So is this a really pressing issue?
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: GreenLanternCorps on February 08, 2018, 10:03:36 PM
Why???

S.B. 136 is a bill in Kentucky that would rename all the formerly toll "parkways" to "freeways." For instance, the Audubon Parkway would become the Audubon Freeway, etc.

So is this a really pressing issue?


No, itís a Marketing gimmick.

Douglas Adams had the best comment on marketing departments...

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Sirius_Cybernetics_Corporation
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: seicer on February 08, 2018, 11:41:24 PM
It would be nice if a bill would be introduced to give some of these parkways back their unique logos.

Mountain Parkway
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_T._Combs_Mountain_Parkway#/media/File:Bert_T._Combs_Mountain_Parkway_logo.png)

Mountain Parkway expansion, which will follow along KY 114 to Prestonsburg. I suspect this logo is just for promotional purposes, but one can only hope!

(https://ekueasternview.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/screen-shot-2015-03-06-at-5-20-13-pm.png)

Daniel Boone Parkway, now the Hal Rogers Parkway.

(http://www.kentuckyroads.com/images/shields/hrdb.gif)
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Rothman on February 09, 2018, 08:04:21 AM
I would kill to get my hands on the old Mountain Parkway shield, with the Hal Rogers banner.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: hbelkins on February 09, 2018, 12:32:50 PM
I can confirm that the Mountain Parkway Expansion logo sign is just that; a promotional/marketing thing.

There are three old-style Mountain Parkway signs remaining in the wild of which I am aware. All three are located in towns at busy intersections that would make acquisition by means of questionable legality a bit difficult.

I have a second-generation (logo in the square instead of the cutout circle), uninstalled, Daniel Boone Parkway sign in my office.

I would kill to get my hands on the old Mountain Parkway shield, with the Hal Rogers banner.

I think you mean Bert T. Combs.

As for the bill itself, I haven't seen it, but it would require another wasteful massive resigning such was done when the signage was changed to the current format. I understand that was done in an attempt to proliferate the "Kentucky Unbridled Spirit" logo, but as big of a supporter as I was of Gov. Fletcher and his administration and his Transportation Cabinet leadership, I think this was a mistake.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Rothman on February 09, 2018, 12:54:30 PM
Of course I meant Bert T. Combs. *sigh*

Today over yet?
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: froggie on February 09, 2018, 01:39:02 PM
^ It's always Beer:30 somewhere...
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 09, 2018, 05:59:37 PM
Which are those multiple highways with the parkway name closer to? Freeways or Parkways? In any event, the name "parkways" has been a part of the Kentucky highway system for decades. There's no need for a parkways-to-freeways name change.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: 1 on February 09, 2018, 06:04:25 PM
Which are those multiple highways with the parkway name closer to? Freeways or Parkways? In any event, the name "parkways" has been a part of the Kentucky highway system for decades. There's no need for a parkways-to-freeways name change.

Some of them have at-grade intersections and are therefore not full freeways.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: hbelkins on February 09, 2018, 08:19:39 PM
Which are those multiple highways with the parkway name closer to? Freeways or Parkways? In any event, the name "parkways" has been a part of the Kentucky highway system for decades. There's no need for a parkways-to-freeways name change.

Some of them have at-grade intersections and are therefore not full freeways.

Only the Hal Rogers, which is, for the most part, a Super-2. There's one at-grade on the Mountain Parkway's two-lane section, but it will be eliminated in favor of an interchange in the widening project.

Of course, the problem with the Mountain Parkway is that the extension from Salyersville to Prestonsburg may end up being a widening of KY 114 with all of its at-grades, and even if they build a limited-access road on a new alignment, you've got the segment in Salyersville that's going to have a bunch of traffic lights.

In terms of terminology, the routes are definitely not like the NYC parkways, which prohibit commercial traffic.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Bitmapped on February 11, 2018, 06:16:52 PM
If KYTC is going to do anything, I think giving the routes numbers would make the most sense. The names don't show up on maps well, and now that some are Interstates, the dam has broken in terms of posting numbers.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Rick Powell on February 12, 2018, 06:20:22 PM
In terms of terminology, the routes are definitely not like the NYC parkways, which prohibit commercial traffic.

A "parkway" is best defined by Merriam-Webster - "a broad landscaped highway" which the Kentucky parkways certainly are, although some would want to limit their definition by adding "traversing a park". I see no harm in re-signing the parkways to "freeway" where the definition fits, as part of normal sign replacement, but seems like an unwise expenditure to go off on a sign-changing spree. Besides, the Kentucky "parkways" have their own historic charm, and would lose a little bit if they were re-named like everyone else's freeway.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Stephane Dumas on February 13, 2018, 01:44:03 PM
I'm surprised then they didn't called them "turnpike" like the former Kentucky Turnpike back then.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Avalanchez71 on February 13, 2018, 02:00:37 PM
I like the traditional names.  They should just use the numbers like in Florida with an auxiliary banner.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Brandon on February 13, 2018, 04:07:09 PM
I like the traditional names.  They should just use the numbers like in Florida with an auxiliary banner.

Hell, they could do that along the Pennyrile and Western Kentucky Parkways where it's I-69.  KTC could even follow *gasp* IDOT here:

{69} NORTH
        Pennyrile Pkwy
Henderson
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: seicer on February 13, 2018, 08:38:21 PM
Yes - text would be far better. It's darn near impossible to read out the shields at high speeds in many cases - and the same goes for other states.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Henry on February 14, 2018, 10:04:25 AM
There are lots of bad ideas for renaming highways, and this is definitely one of them.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: jnewkirk77 on February 14, 2018, 01:21:30 PM
I don't have ideas for all of them, but here's what I would like to see:

Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 14, 2018, 01:35:18 PM
In terms of terminology, the routes are definitely not like the NYC parkways, which prohibit commercial traffic.

A "parkway" is best defined by Merriam-Webster - "a broad landscaped highway" which the Kentucky parkways certainly are, although some would want to limit their definition by adding "traversing a park". I see no harm in re-signing the parkways to "freeway" where the definition fits, as part of normal sign replacement, but seems like an unwise expenditure to go off on a sign-changing spree. Besides, the Kentucky "parkways" have their own historic charm, and would lose a little bit if they were re-named like everyone else's freeway.

It's also a little subjective, and can change based on whatever the locality wants to use.

The Ben Franklin Parkway in Philadelphia is only half tree-lined, has traffic lights at every intersection, and even has a circle named Logan Square.

In this bill's case, renaming them seems like some anal person consistently contacted their elected officials complaining that they're free, so they should be freeways.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: hbelkins on February 14, 2018, 03:32:56 PM
Actually, I'm guessing that there's an economic development factor in play here.

If parkways have the stigma of not being full interstate-quality freeways, then perhaps someone wants the name changed to freeway.

One of the sponsors is from Owensboro, so I understand the concern there. The other is from northern Kentucky, however, which isn't served by any parkways.
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: Stephane Dumas on February 14, 2018, 06:45:48 PM
I don't have ideas for all of them, but here's what I would like to see:
Extend I-71 south to E-town concurrent with I-65, then put I-71 on the WKP over to I-69.[/li][/list]

I thought of the same thing about a I-71 extension on the WKP and multiplex it with I-65 to reach I-69.  The main upgrade would be some interchanges, mainly the cloverleaf of WKP/I-65.

Edit: Some folks on Google maps seem to have the nostalgy of the Kentucky Turnpike era. They referred I-65 from Elizabethtown to Louisville as Kentucky Turnpike. http://archive.is/xpytb
Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
Post by: jnewkirk77 on February 15, 2018, 12:51:21 AM
    I don't have ideas for all of them, but here's what I would like to see:
    Extend I-71 south to E-town concurrent with I-65, then put I-71 on the WKP over to I-69.[/li][/list]

    I thought of the same thing about a I-71 extension on the WKP and multiplex it with I-65 to reach I-69.  The main upgrade would be some interchanges, mainly the cloverleaf of WKP/I-65.

    Edit: Some folks on Google maps seem to have the nostalgy of the Kentucky Turnpike era. They referred I-65 from Elizabethtown to Louisville as Kentucky Turnpike. http://archive.is/xpytb

    I kinda like that little nugget of history.  I'd love to see a historical marker somewhere along the way to remind motorists of what once was.  ;-)
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: SP Cook on February 15, 2018, 01:03:55 PM
    If KYTC is going to do anything, I think giving the routes numbers would make the most sense. The names don't show up on maps well, and now that some are Interstates, the dam has broken in terms of posting numbers.

    THIS.

    When they were toll roads, names made some sense, as ordinary people accept named toll roads.  Named ordinary highways in one state and one state only just make no sense.  They do not show up well on maps, make giving directions difficult, and are confusing to non-locals, particularly with the overburden of politician names added on.   

    Just move the nearby route number (KY 80 as an example) and forget about it. 
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: Avalanchez71 on February 15, 2018, 01:50:30 PM
    They already have internal state route numbers.  You could unmask them. 

    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: sparker on February 15, 2018, 03:58:04 PM
    They already have internal state route numbers.  You could unmask them. 



    Q1:  "How do I get to your place?"
    A1:  "Take Kentucky 9007 until............."
    Q2 (interruption): "Take what?"
    A2: "Yeah, it used to be the Hal Rogers Parkway!  Was the Daniel Boone for a while."
    Q3: "So they changed it to a really weird number that nobody's gonna remember?"
    A3: "Uhh....I guess so."
    Q4: "What a stupid concept!"

    ......sorry; had to finish off the Python theme carried over from another thread.

    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: SP Cook on February 16, 2018, 09:29:59 AM
    KISS (and leaving out I-69 discussions) :

    Audubon: US 60, current 60 becomes SR
    Mountain: US 460, with 460 ending at I-64 in Winchester, current 460 becomes SR
    Bluegrass: US 62, current 62 becomes SR
    Cumberland: KY 80
    Purchase: US 45
    Natcher: US 231
    Pennyrile: US 41
    Western Kentucky: US 62
    Hal Rogers: KY 80


    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: mrsman on February 16, 2018, 01:53:55 PM
    Which are those multiple highways with the parkway name closer to? Freeways or Parkways? In any event, the name "parkways" has been a part of the Kentucky highway system for decades. There's no need for a parkways-to-freeways name change.

    Some of them have at-grade intersections and are therefore not full freeways.

    Only the Hal Rogers, which is, for the most part, a Super-2. There's one at-grade on the Mountain Parkway's two-lane section, but it will be eliminated in favor of an interchange in the widening project.

    Of course, the problem with the Mountain Parkway is that the extension from Salyersville to Prestonsburg may end up being a widening of KY 114 with all of its at-grades, and even if they build a limited-access road on a new alignment, you've got the segment in Salyersville that's going to have a bunch of traffic lights.

    In terms of terminology, the routes are definitely not like the NYC parkways, which prohibit commercial traffic.

    If this is indeed the case, it seems to me that these roadways should be renumbered as non-chargeable interstates.  From what I can tell, they all connect to the interstate highways like I-65, I-69, and I-75.  Plus, there is no reason that the roadways could not be referred to by both names and numbers.  In NYC and Chicago prominent freeways like the I-495 Long Island Expressway and the I-90/94 Dan Ryan Expressway are referred to by both name and number, including on the highway signs.

    The interstate shields are great indications that these are high quality roadways for efficient movement.

    And there is no reason why these roads can't maintain the name parkway.  There are interstate quality freeways with the name parkway as it is.  One example is the I-376 Penn-Lincoln Parkway in Pittsburgh.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: hbelkins on February 16, 2018, 09:59:38 PM
    ^^^^

    There are issues with portions of the roads not meeting current interstate standards, even excluding the old toll booth cloverleaf interchanges. Mostly bridge clearances, exit/entrance accel/decel lanes, and so on. This is why substantial work had to be done before I-69 could be signed.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: mrsman on February 18, 2018, 10:53:34 PM
    ^^^^

    There are issues with portions of the roads not meeting current interstate standards, even excluding the old toll booth cloverleaf interchanges. Mostly bridge clearances, exit/entrance accel/decel lanes, and so on. This is why substantial work had to be done before I-69 could be signed.

    Then the next best approach would be to number them as state highway 3dis.*  And it would be extra helpful if those highways had unique shields to distinguish between surface level state highways.  The signage and numbering can still be used to indicate that they are at least informally part of the national highway network and that significant long-distance travel can use them and not limit thesmselves to I-65 and I-75.



    *  What I mean by state highway 3dis are highways that are numbered as 3dis, but are still state routes.  There are a number of these out there.  CC 215 near Las Vegas, CA 905 near San Diego,  VA 895 in Richmond, NY 878 near NYC's JFK Airport.  Then, there are examples of non-qualifying extensions of interstate highways like I-210/CA 210 in California, I-295/MD 295 in Baltimore/DC area.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: roadman65 on February 18, 2018, 10:57:48 PM
    I do not see why it still cannot be a Parkway despite the interstates.

    Also is the Western Kentucky solo east of I-69 ever to become I-66?  If I remember that correctly the current I-69 on the Western Kentucky would have been a two interstate concurrency along with I-24 having a three interstate concurrency.

    I heard it was dead for lack of support, but it Kentucky still going to keep the possibility alive though?
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: hbelkins on February 19, 2018, 11:12:13 AM
    I do not see why it still cannot be a Parkway despite the interstates.

    Also is the Western Kentucky solo east of I-69 ever to become I-66?  If I remember that correctly the current I-69 on the Western Kentucky would have been a two interstate concurrency along with I-24 having a three interstate concurrency.

    I heard it was dead for lack of support, but it Kentucky still going to keep the possibility alive though?

    The settled I-66 corridor followed the Cumberland Parkway, and then the Natcher, to intersect the WK. There was a discussion about using the Hal Rogers and Cumberland vs. I-64 and the Bluegrass, and in the end the southern route won.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: Bitmapped on February 21, 2018, 09:53:00 PM
    ^^^^

    There are issues with portions of the roads not meeting current interstate standards, even excluding the old toll booth cloverleaf interchanges. Mostly bridge clearances, exit/entrance accel/decel lanes, and so on. This is why substantial work had to be done before I-69 could be signed.

    Then the next best approach would be to number them as state highway 3dis.*  And it would be extra helpful if those highways had unique shields to distinguish between surface level state highways.  The signage and numbering can still be used to indicate that they are at least informally part of the national highway network and that significant long-distance travel can use them and not limit thesmselves to I-65 and I-75.

    As SP Cook noted, there are existing US routes and major state routes that parallel these corridors. It makes a lot more sense (to me, at least) to move these routes onto the parkways rather than designate new numbers. As an example, KY 80 is a major high-quality route across Kentucky except where it parallels the Cumberland and Hal Rogers Parkways. Move it onto the parkways so it is a major route across the state.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: sparker on February 22, 2018, 02:41:46 AM
    I do not see why it still cannot be a Parkway despite the interstates.

    Also is the Western Kentucky solo east of I-69 ever to become I-66?  If I remember that correctly the current I-69 on the Western Kentucky would have been a two interstate concurrency along with I-24 having a three interstate concurrency.

    I heard it was dead for lack of support, but it Kentucky still going to keep the possibility alive though?

    The settled I-66 corridor followed the Cumberland Parkway, and then the Natcher, to intersect the WK. There was a discussion about using the Hal Rogers and Cumberland vs. I-64 and the Bluegrass, and in the end the southern route won.

    IIRC, the Natcher/WKY I-66 routing was suggested (particularly after the combination WKY/Pennyrile alignment was chosen for I-69) but never finalized.  And now that the Natcher is legally designated as future I-165; that in itself would tend to indicate that the nails are ready for the coffin regarding that alignment for I-66 west of I-65.  Perhaps the originally conceived alignment along US 68/KY 80 might be resurrected at least as far west as I-24.

    And I certainly agree with HB's oft-expressed sentiment that any I-66 (or other) extension in the western tip of the state should include a direct bridge into MO from somewhere in the Wickliffe area.   
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: seicer on February 22, 2018, 07:38:07 AM
    They can always redesignate it, if need be.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: hbelkins on February 22, 2018, 10:57:38 AM
    And I certainly agree with HB's oft-expressed sentiment that any I-66 (or other) extension in the western tip of the state should include a direct bridge into MO from somewhere in the Wickliffe area.   

    Both of those bridges at Cairo are ancient, in addition to being substandard in terms of width. Meeting a tractor-trailer on them isn't exactly fun. There's a viable detour for the Mississippi bridge; that being I-57 a few miles to the north. There's no good detour for the Ohio bridge, and the road is subject to flooding between Wickliffe and the bridge. I could be convinced that instead of building a new Mississippi crossing directly from Kentucky, a new Ohio crossing and a connection to I-57 would suffice. But that would require cooperation from IDiOT ($1 to Brandon).
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: seicer on February 22, 2018, 02:35:17 PM
    The Cairo Bridge coming from Kentucky is slated for either overhaul or replacement. I'll miss the old cantilever truss but yeah, meeting a truck on there isn't fun.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: sparker on February 22, 2018, 04:25:51 PM
    And I certainly agree with HB's oft-expressed sentiment that any I-66 (or other) extension in the western tip of the state should include a direct bridge into MO from somewhere in the Wickliffe area.   

    Both of those bridges at Cairo are ancient, in addition to being substandard in terms of width. Meeting a tractor-trailer on them isn't exactly fun. There's a viable detour for the Mississippi bridge; that being I-57 a few miles to the north. There's no good detour for the Ohio bridge, and the road is subject to flooding between Wickliffe and the bridge. I could be convinced that instead of building a new Mississippi crossing directly from Kentucky, a new Ohio crossing and a connection to I-57 would suffice. But that would require cooperation from IDiOT ($1 to Brandon).

    Given their precarious financial straits, it would seem that cooperation from MODOT would be something of a crapshoot as well; it appears that bypassing Cairo and its old bridges -- regardless of specific location -- will be problematic (when you don't have your choice of neighbors, that can always be an issue!).
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: Brandon on February 23, 2018, 03:19:17 PM
    KISS (and leaving out I-69 discussions) :

    Audubon: US 60, current 60 becomes SR
    Mountain: US 460, with 460 ending at I-64 in Winchester, current 460 becomes SR
    Bluegrass: US 62, current 62 becomes SR
    Cumberland: KY 80
    Purchase: US 45
    Natcher: US 231
    Pennyrile: US 41
    Western Kentucky: US 62
    Hal Rogers: KY 80

    Best idea of the thread.  There is no reason they cannot be US (and State) route freeways a la US-31, US-131, US-23, US-10 in Michigan.  Not everything needs an I-number.  But moving the parallel routes, especially the US-routes, over to the freeway is always a great idea.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 23, 2018, 06:14:41 PM
    Does Kentucky allow or disallow highway number duplications (SR/US/Interstate)?
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: 1 on February 23, 2018, 06:23:43 PM
    Does Kentucky allow or disallow highway number duplications (SR/US/Interstate)?

    I think the only duplication is US/KY 79 (which effectively acts as a single route), but there might be one or two I missed.
    Title: Re: Kentucky bill would rename "parkways" to "freeways"
    Post by: hbelkins on February 23, 2018, 07:35:18 PM
    Does Kentucky allow or disallow highway number duplications (SR/US/Interstate)?

    I think the only duplication is US/KY 79 (which effectively acts as a single route), but there might be one or two I missed.

    Well, we have I-69 and KY 69 now. Other than that, no duplications, and I don't know if KY 69 will be changed or not. KY 24 was changed when I-24 came into existence.