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Regional Boards => Canada => Topic started by: Richard3 on October 29, 2018, 01:53:33 AM

Title: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on October 29, 2018, 01:53:33 AM
As I predicted even before they inaugurated the work site, the delivery of the new Champlain Bridge, over the St. Lawrence River, between Montreal and Brossard, will be postponed to spring 2019.

Federal minister of Infrastructure, François-Philippe Champagne, announced that the bridge structure will be ready on time, but it will not be possible to put asphalt and to waterproof the road surface, due to winter's cold and humid weather.  So the surface will be done on next spring, at the latest by the end of June of 2019.

The old Champlain Bridge will remain open, and maintained in condition until the opening of the new bridge.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: ATLRedSoxFan on October 29, 2018, 02:20:37 AM
It will be nice once complete. But I'm not surprised, it's Quebec after all.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on November 01, 2018, 12:39:43 PM
In Quebec, you'll give government the Sahara, and they will turn shortly out of sand!  :banghead:

Even if the Champlain Bridge is a federal work, the MTQ (Quebec's DOT) posts some restrictions, like beam transportation, for example; the contractor had to carry beams by the river, instead than by the road.  Add to that some strikes (gov't engineers, construction workers, and crane operators), and you have the exact recipe of a fiasco!
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: webfil on November 04, 2018, 01:41:31 PM
you have the exact recipe of a fiasco!

A $ 4,240,000,000 rail and road bridge, not created ex-nihilo but very next to the one it replaces in a heavily populated, circulated and navigated area, completed under 4 years of contract awarding is not exactly a fiasco. It is, to the contrary, a quite refreshing success ― to say the least.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on November 04, 2018, 07:56:44 PM
The only thing that I'm a bit concerned about the new bridge are some of the allegations of quality problems.  There are always issues that arise during the construction of any major project, but some of the media coverage hasn't painted a pretty picture.

Some of these design-build projects can be prone to problems.  I remember the defective welds on the Windsor Essex Parkway for example, where half the bridge girders needed to be demolished and replaced because they didn't meet the Ontario Bridge Code.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on December 18, 2018, 09:49:53 AM
you have the exact recipe of a fiasco!

A $ 4,240,000,000 rail and road bridge, not created ex-nihilo but very next to the one it replaces in a heavily populated, circulated and navigated area, completed under 4 years of contract awarding is not exactly a fiasco. It is, to the contrary, a quite refreshing success ― to say the least.

All depends to what you compare to; the Decarie expressway bears 21 overpasses that were built within four months, in 1967. When they rebuilt them, around the 2000s, it took close to four years!  It's sure that they have to maintain traffic; that very specification can definitely extend delays on a work site.  But the new Champlain Bridge is built besides the actual bridge, so the traffic was not so much affected.  I may understand that workers - and public - safety issues also extend building delays, but I believe that if the willing is there, roadworks can be much faster that what we see nowadays.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: vdeane on December 18, 2018, 12:18:22 PM
How long did the current Champlain Bridge take?
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: ATLRedSoxFan on December 19, 2018, 01:05:01 AM
Construction on the bridge began in 1957 and opened in 1962.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on December 19, 2018, 07:38:48 AM
The new bridge now has its own (slightly different) name:  Pont Samuel-de-Champlain

French: https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/12/18/le-nom-du-nouveau-pont-champlain-maintenant-connu
English summarization: http://www.iheartradio.ca/cjad/news/new-champlain-bridge-to-be-named-samuel-de-champlain-bridge-1.8624242
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: webfil on December 19, 2018, 08:49:34 AM
The new bridge now has its own (slightly different) name:  Pont Samuel-de-Champlain

French: https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/12/18/le-nom-du-nouveau-pont-champlain-maintenant-connu
English summarization: http://www.iheartradio.ca/cjad/news/new-champlain-bridge-to-be-named-samuel-de-champlain-bridge-1.8624242
The right hyphenation and capitalisation is "Samuel-De Champlain", as De Champlain is a nobility title.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on December 19, 2018, 05:48:42 PM
The right hyphenation and capitalisation is "Samuel-De Champlain", as De Champlain is a nobility title.

Looks like there was a typo in the original story, which propagated.  That, or, Quebec is getting carried away with its hyphens.

A subsequent (French language) article loses the extra hyphen: https://www.journaldemontreal.com/nouveau-pont-champlain-le-ministre-des-transports-federal-content-de-lavancement-des-travaux

They're apparently less than a meter away from the "north" and "south" sides of the bridge meeting.  From what I could see driving across the old bridge this morning, there's still one small stretch (less than 100 meters) of deck to be built, and contractors vehicles could be seen on the "north" side of the bridge most of the way to the tower of the bridge.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Beltway on December 19, 2018, 09:53:27 PM
Harsh Conditions Put Team to the Test on Champlain Bridge
https://www.enr.com/articles/46112-harsh-conditions-put-team-to-the-test-on-champlain-bridge

Excerpts:

Designed to last 125 years despite its location in a harsh natural environment where it is part of a key international trade corridor, the Champlain Bridge will also add to Montreal’s skyline with its unusual asymmetrical cable-stayed span. The $3.1-billion project required vertical access engineering and designs for a variety of conditions, including seismicity, wind loads, ice loads, scour and the need to accommodate a future transitway.

The project—which includes another 5 kilometers of highway expansions and improvements along with the 3.4-km-long bridge over the St. Lawrence River—has been beset by challenges such as extreme winters, governmental changes and a crane operators’ strike. Signature on the Saint Lawrence (SSL), a consortium comprising SNC-Lavalin, ACS and Hochtief, faces penalties from owner Infrastructure Canada for missing its scheduled Dec. 21 completion, but it hopes to complete the bridge by next summer, and the team is in discussions with Infrastructure Canada about the penalties (ENR 11/5-12 p. 14). The contract calls for the consortium to build, operate and maintain the bridge for 30 years, but a new government in 2015 canceled the bridge tolls, so discussions about revenue are ongoing as well.

“We had a 42-month schedule, but only 30 months of good weather,” says Daniel Genest, project director with SSL. He adds that the 16-day crane operator strike in June also had a ripple effect on construction progress.

When completed, the bridge will connect the South Shore suburbs to Montreal with two three-lane corridors for traffic, a two-lane transit corridor and a separate pedestrian/bike path. It will handle 60 million vehicles a year [about average 164,000 per day] and support approximately $15 billion in U.S.-Canada trade. It replaces a 6-km-long steel truss bridge with concrete approach viaducts that opened in 1962 and has deteriorated due to deicing salts and inefficient drainage. “It cost up to $100 million a year just to maintain the old bridge,” says Guy Mailhot, chief engineer with Infrastructure Canada.


See URL for rest of article, and construction photo.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Alps on December 20, 2018, 12:29:53 AM
AADT of 164,000 and they're only building 3 lanes each way? What a waste.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Beltway on December 20, 2018, 06:08:39 AM
AADT of 164,000 and they're only building 3 lanes each way? What a waste.

Includes a 'two-lane transit corridor' as well.  Wonder if that is a HOV/busway.

The 'it will handle' may be an unclear way of stating the design year, i.e. 20 years or more in the future.

ENR is more of a journalistic publication for the engineering and construction industry, than an engineering publication, despite its name.

Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on December 20, 2018, 10:07:07 AM
Includes a 'two-lane transit corridor' as well.  Wonder if that is a HOV/busway.

The bridge will apparently carry:
...versus the current six lanes total (one restricted to buses during commute hours).

Pre-construction AADT for the main span was 150k.  To me, that traffic level seems to beg for more lanes (although...how do you plan with traffic levels in mind for a bridge that is supposed to last at least 125 years), but considering the local push to transit, and the fact that funding hasn't been completely sourced since plans to toll the bridge were axed....

(*sigh*  I wish they would hurry up and finish the work needed to restart the Montrealer rail service.)
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: vdeane on December 20, 2018, 01:04:48 PM
Meanwhile, the Tappan Zee carries "only" 139k and the new bridges will have eight general purpose lanes (4 east/4 west), two bus lanes, and a multi-use path once the westbound span is done.  IMO the new Champlain Bridge should have been the same... major missed opportunity here!
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Alps on December 20, 2018, 02:25:27 PM
Meanwhile, the Tappan Zee carries "only" 139k and the new bridges will have eight general purpose lanes (4 east/4 west), two bus lanes, and a multi-use path once the westbound span is done.  IMO the new Champlain Bridge should have been the same... major missed opportunity here!
And that was exactly my point. The south shore is very constrained by capacity into Montreal, especially when an incident closes any bridge.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Beltway on December 20, 2018, 02:52:23 PM
Meanwhile, the Tappan Zee carries "only" 139k and the new bridges will have eight general purpose lanes (4 east/4 west), two bus lanes, and a multi-use path once the westbound span is done.  IMO the new Champlain Bridge should have been the same... major missed opportunity here!
And that was exactly my point. The south shore is very constrained by capacity into Montreal, especially when an incident closes any bridge.

The Champlain Bridge is part of an urban radial freeway with a high directional split, and will have 5 lanes in the direction of peak traffic?  Is that the case?  If so then more AADT might be handled and tolerated in a case like that.

The Tappan Zee Bridge is part of an outer belt freeway and 139 thousand AADT is very high for such a facility.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Alps on December 20, 2018, 03:37:08 PM
Meanwhile, the Tappan Zee carries "only" 139k and the new bridges will have eight general purpose lanes (4 east/4 west), two bus lanes, and a multi-use path once the westbound span is done.  IMO the new Champlain Bridge should have been the same... major missed opportunity here!
And that was exactly my point. The south shore is very constrained by capacity into Montreal, especially when an incident closes any bridge.

The Champlain Bridge is part of an urban radial freeway with a high directional split, and will have 5 lanes in the direction of peak traffic?  Is that the case?  If so then more AADT might be handled and tolerated in a case like that.

The Tappan Zee Bridge is part of an outer belt freeway and 139 thousand AADT is very high for such a facility.
No that is not the case. It will only have 3 lanes being utilized. Transit does not put an appreciable dent in AADT. The new bridge needs 4 per direction.
As for 287, it also carries the NY Thruway mainline to NYC. 8 lanes is not overkill at all.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: kphoger on December 20, 2018, 03:42:59 PM
Includes a 'two-lane transit corridor' as well.  Wonder if that is a HOV/busway.

The bridge will apparently carry:
  • Six general purpose lanes (3 north/3 south)
  • Two transit lanes (bus, REM)
  • Bike/pedestrian path
...versus the current six lanes total (one restricted to buses during commute hours).

Are you saying that one of the "lanes" being counted is for light rail?
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Beltway on December 20, 2018, 04:10:25 PM
The Champlain Bridge is part of an urban radial freeway with a high directional split, and will have 5 lanes in the direction of peak traffic?  Is that the case?  If so then more AADT might be handled and tolerated in a case like that.
The Tappan Zee Bridge is part of an outer belt freeway and 139 thousand AADT is very high for such a facility.
No that is not the case. It will only have 3 lanes being utilized. Transit does not put an appreciable dent in AADT. The new bridge needs 4 per direction.
As for 287, it also carries the NY Thruway mainline to NYC. 8 lanes is not overkill at all.

The Tappan Zee Bridge carries both I-87 and I-287; the outer belt freeway, and like you say the NY Thruway mainline which serves as a radial freeway also.  Given the amount of long-distance traffic as well as large truck percentage, 139 thousand AADT does warrant 8 lanes.

Is the Champlain Bridge 2-lane transit roadway going to carry HOV/busway?  If so that could handle substantial VPD as well as passengers.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: froggie on December 20, 2018, 06:11:13 PM
Quote from: Alps
Transit does not put an appreciable dent in AADT.

This is the case in most of the U.S.  But it does make an appreciable dent in Montreal's traffic.  Giving the multitude of packed peak-hour buses their own lane instead of taking from an existing lane will improve capacity on the new Champlain Bridge.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: vdeane on December 20, 2018, 07:23:05 PM
But is it enough?  150k is a LOT for only three lanes each way, and the Montréal area is growing.  Not to mention, it also carries the A-10/15/20 triplex, and is part of one of only two toll-free ways to get through the metro area (the other being the perpetually congested Metropolitan - Canada's equivalent of the Cross-Bronx Expressway).
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Beltway on December 20, 2018, 08:13:50 PM
But is it enough?  150k is a LOT for only three lanes each way, and the Montréal area is growing.  Not to mention, it also carries the A-10/15/20 triplex, and is part of one of only two toll-free ways to get through the metro area (the other being the perpetually congested Metropolitan - Canada's equivalent of the Cross-Bronx Expressway).

What about the Victoria Bridge and the Jacques-Cartier Bridge, the two other St. Lawrence River bridges that connect to the urban core of Montreal?  Definitely very aged bridges.  If there is a plan to eventually upgrade (widen, parallel or replace) one or both, then that could be part of the decision on the width of the new Champlain Bridge.

Need to consider the approaches of the Champlain Bridge as well.  If they were to build a 10- or 12-lane bridge, then they need equally capacious approach freeways to take full advantage of the size of the bridge.  Given on how urbanized that area is it looks rather difficult to widen those freeways beyond 6 lanes, maybe to 8 lanes, but then the new bridge will be able to throw 5 lanes in the direction of peak traffic.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Alps on December 20, 2018, 11:19:28 PM
But is it enough?  150k is a LOT for only three lanes each way, and the Montréal area is growing.  Not to mention, it also carries the A-10/15/20 triplex, and is part of one of only two toll-free ways to get through the metro area (the other being the perpetually congested Metropolitan - Canada's equivalent of the Cross-Bronx Expressway).

What about the Victoria Bridge and the Jacques-Cartier Bridge, the two other St. Lawrence River bridges that connect to the urban core of Montreal?  Definitely very aged bridges.  If there is a plan to eventually upgrade (widen, parallel or replace) one or both, then that could be part of the decision on the width of the new Champlain Bridge.

Need to consider the approaches of the Champlain Bridge as well.  If they were to build a 10- or 12-lane bridge, then they need equally capacious approach freeways to take full advantage of the size of the bridge.  Given on how urbanized that area is it looks rather difficult to widen those freeways beyond 6 lanes, maybe to 8 lanes, but then the new bridge will be able to throw 5 lanes in the direction of peak traffic.
There's definitely room. A-10, 15, and 20 are all squeezing together. A properly designed interchange on each side would be able to get to at least 8 lanes, if not 10, without modifying beyond the various splits.
As for making a dent, I'll disagree because we're talking about AADT. That's not the same as number of people. Even if you replace 5,000 vehicles a day with 100 buses, your AADT goes from 150K to 145K. That's still enough for 8 lanes.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Beltway on December 21, 2018, 07:35:13 AM
What about the Victoria Bridge and the Jacques-Cartier Bridge, the two other St. Lawrence River bridges that connect to the urban core of Montreal?  Definitely very aged bridges.  If there is a plan to eventually upgrade (widen, parallel or replace) one or both, then that could be part of the decision on the width of the new Champlain Bridge.
Need to consider the approaches of the Champlain Bridge as well.  If they were to build a 10- or 12-lane bridge, then they need equally capacious approach freeways to take full advantage of the size of the bridge.  Given on how urbanized that area is it looks rather difficult to widen those freeways beyond 6 lanes, maybe to 8 lanes, but then the new bridge will be able to throw 5 lanes in the direction of peak traffic.
There's definitely room. A-10, 15, and 20 are all squeezing together. A properly designed interchange on each side would be able to get to at least 8 lanes, if not 10, without modifying beyond the various splits.
As for making a dent, I'll disagree because we're talking about AADT. That's not the same as number of people. Even if you replace 5,000 vehicles a day with 100 buses, your AADT goes from 150K to 145K. That's still enough for 8 lanes.

It looks pretty tight in some places especially between a line of buildings and a canal, but I will grant that there may be space for 8 or 10 general purpose lanes.  I found the environmental document, but it didn't answer several questions, 1) alternatives analysis including that of a wider bridge and approach highways, 2) how/where the 2-lane transit roadway connects to other roads, 3) operational plan for transitway such as besides buses what other vehicles will be allowed (HOV or HOT could mean lots of AADT), and when it may be converted to light rail (and presumably eliminate HOV or HOT).

They may have reasoned that providing 8 lanes on 3 separate roadways (3-2-3 config) was enough of an improvement given the massive costs of $3.5 billion.  But I would like to see an official analysis for the design and costs of say a 4-2-4 config and associated freeway approach upgrades.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on December 21, 2018, 09:15:16 AM
The bridge will apparently carry:
  • Six general purpose lanes (3 north/3 south)
  • Two transit lanes (bus, REM)
  • Bike/pedestrian path
...versus the current six lanes total (one restricted to buses during commute hours).

Are you saying that one of the "lanes" being counted is for light rail?

I don't know.   When I read that, I assumed that the South Shore Branch of the REM would engage in street-running to cross the bridge -- that each transit lane would also have rails.

If they went with one lane and one railway, then they'd be limited to operating one direction only...and I think that would create an issue for the viability of that branch of the REM.

Wikipedia claims that REM would run on "a rail deck"....but I'm not certain where they would add a separate rail deck; and with South Shore service scheduled to begin in 2021, there isn't much time to add one.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on December 21, 2018, 09:46:38 AM
The "pre-feasibility study" is here: https://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01297/Pre-feasibility_st_1297707a.pdf

Discussion of number of lanes begins on page 14.  Someone with better knowledge of traffic engineering could probably do a better job of summarizing/interpreting, but to my inexpert eye, it looks like the study said "3 lanes gets us LOS E or F.  A 4th lane would add capacity, but demand would increase so we'd still have LOS E or F."   Given the local push for transit, the powers that be presumably didn't see "more traffic in a bigger traffic jam" as a desirable outcome.

Trivia: the study indicates that pre-construction, during peak hours, the bus-only lane was carrying at least as many commuters  as the two general-purpose lanes
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Beltway on December 21, 2018, 10:13:21 AM
The "pre-feasibility study" is here: https://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01297/Pre-feasibility_st_1297707a.pdf
Discussion of number of lanes begins on page 14.  Someone with better knowledge of traffic engineering could probably do a better job of summarizing/interpreting, but to my inexpert eye, it looks like the study said "3 lanes gets us LOS E or F.  A 4th lane would add capacity, but demand would increase so we'd still have LOS E or F."   Given the local push for transit, the powers that be presumably didn't see "more traffic in a bigger traffic jam" as a desirable outcome.

Those LOS are the highest level of congestion.  What the analysis doesn't show is the relative impact on the -length- of the congested period, i.e. a time profile curve of the levels of congestion.  Even if more lanes might not have a major effect on peak congestion, it might considerably shorten the time length of it.

"Analysis of the levels of service (LOS) of the various scenarios shows that adding a 4th lane on the bridge (Scenarios C and D) would offer little benefit in terms of levels of service on the Champlain"

They also said that the 4th lanes would merely attact traffic from the other river bridges and then total Champlain traffic would increase to cause what the above quote says.

"The addition of a fourth lane in each direction on the Champlain Bridge would obviously allow it to carry a larger flow.  However, according to the demand simulated for the 2026 PPPM, this fourth lane would not result in an improvement in traffic conditions on this main artery: in fact, whether the bridge has three or four lanes, the level of service would remain at “F” and at the same time cause significant transfers of traffic from other bridges to the Champlain Bridge. "

Translation:  "No matter what we do traffic will still be horrible so why bother with 4th lanes".
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on December 21, 2018, 11:09:15 AM
Those LOS are the highest level of congestion.  What the analysis doesn't show is the relative impact on the -length- of the congested period, i.e. a time profile curve of the levels of congestion.  Even if more lanes might not have a major effect on peak congestion, it might considerably shorten the time length of it.

FWIW, while they don't have by-hour impacts of the different lane options, they do provide a 2004 profile for the old bridge on page 11.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: cbeach40 on December 21, 2018, 12:06:57 PM
The staging study did include volume profile curves for the Champlain and other crossings (pg 65 for the Champlain).
http://mitl.mcmaster.ca/reports/MITL_Champlain_Bridge_Report.pdf

As the pre-feasibility study said, in order to justify widening the bridge the approaching freeways would need to be widened. Given how that's pretty well a non-starter in this day and age there's no sense adding the extra cost to the bridge.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Alps on December 21, 2018, 05:19:29 PM
Removing traffic from other bridges sounds like a positive. That means people are better served by the Champlain Bridge but can't get there today. Per-person savings of time and mileage add up quickly.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: vdeane on December 21, 2018, 09:14:16 PM
Not to mention that an 8 lane bridge doesn't mean the approaches need to be that wide.  The A-10 overlap is only on the bridge, so dropping to 6 lanes on either end of the bridge would make sense (would still require some widening to the west, but not as much).

Seriously, Montréal is congested pretty much all the time.  Something needs to be done.  It's amazing how Canadian cities tend to be more congested than similar-sized American counterparts.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on December 22, 2018, 07:53:19 PM
Not to mention that an 8 lane bridge doesn't mean the approaches need to be that wide.  The A-10 overlap is only on the bridge, so dropping to 6 lanes on either end of the bridge would make sense (would still require some widening to the west, but not as much).

Seriously, Montréal is congested pretty much all the time.  Something needs to be done.  It's amazing how Canadian cities tend to be more congested than similar-sized American counterparts.

Absolutely!

Montreal is so much congested that adding a brand new six-lane (3-3) bridge, between Montreal and its south shore, would not be enough to solve traffic problems.  A six-lane bridge was added between Montreal and Laval (Olivier-Charbonneau bridge, A-25) in May 2011, but no notable traffic improvement was seen since then. It would be the same for south shore.  Just remember that no lane was added since the opening of the Lafontaine Tunnel, in 1967; it's like 51 years ago! Don't try to convince me that population, on both sides of the bridge, didn't increase since 51 years!

In Montreal, when a problem occurs, they shovel it forward; the Champlain problem was shoveled forward since over 30 years! So since this time, the bridge decayed so much that it now costs over 100M$ a year just to keep it strong enough to support traffic.  With that pile of money, we would build many miles of new highways.

About approaches, let's look first on the south shore; there's three lanes coming from the Autoroute des Cantons-de-l'Est (Eastern Townships Highway, A-10 west), plus one from each direction on René-Lévesque Highway (A-15 north/A-20 west/QC-132), those two merging together into one lane, for a total of 4 lanes.  Champlain has three lanes towards Montreal, so there's a "funnel effect", there, every morning rush hour.

On the Montreal side, now; actually, there's two lanes from Turcot Interchange (A-15 south/A-20 east), and two from Bonaventure Expressway (A-10 east). Without counting Nun's Island ramps, we have a total of 4 lanes, so we have, again, a funnel effect when going towards the three lanes of the bridge.  With the new bridge, we will have one more lane coming from Turcot (3 instead of 2), for a new total of 5 lanes that, believe me on that, will be full at every afternoon rush hour.  And how much lanes will we have on the brand new Samuel-de Champlain Bridge?  Yeah, only three!

So I'm still looking, more than 4B$ later, for any kind of traffic improvement.

And for those who were questioning about the transit lanes, on the center carriageway of the new bridge, forget about running any kind of vehicles on those lanes!  The federal government offered those two lanes for transit to Quebec, letting that government going on with their own project, so the MTQ decided to forward them to the REM, so don't even think about turning them in HOVs.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Beltway on December 22, 2018, 08:57:10 PM
Montreal is so much congested that adding a brand new six-lane (3-3) bridge, between Montreal and its south shore, would not be enough to solve traffic problems.  A six-lane bridge was added between Montreal and Laval (Olivier-Charbonneau bridge, A-25) in May 2011, but no notable traffic improvement was seen since then.

That doesn't mean that building the new freeway and river bridge was worthless.  Without that the traffic conditions may have grown much worse, in intensity and/or length.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: vdeane on December 23, 2018, 08:21:05 PM
Montreal is so much congested that adding a brand new six-lane (3-3) bridge, between Montreal and its south shore, would not be enough to solve traffic problems.  A six-lane bridge was added between Montreal and Laval (Olivier-Charbonneau bridge, A-25) in May 2011, but no notable traffic improvement was seen since then.

That doesn't mean that building the new freeway and river bridge was worthless.  Without that the traffic conditions may have grown much worse, in intensity and/or length.
It's worth noting that the new bridge may be under-utilized due to the rather high tolls charged for crossing it.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on December 24, 2018, 10:17:05 AM
It's worth noting that the new bridge may be under-utilized due to the rather high tolls charged for crossing it.

After extensive protests from the national government in Quebec, Trudeau had the federal government drop the demand that the new bridge be tolled.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: ghYHZ on December 24, 2018, 12:15:41 PM
What about the Victoria Bridge and the Jacques-Cartier Bridge, the two other St. Lawrence River bridges that connect to the urban core of Montreal?  Definitely very aged bridges.  If there is a plan to eventually upgrade (widen, parallel or replace) one or both, then that could be part of the decision on the width of the new Champlain Bridge.

Pont Victoria is primarily a railroad bridge owned by and carrying the double track mainline of the Canadian National Railways to Quebec City, Halifax and the eastern US.

There are single lanes on outriggers on each side of the rail bridge......and I can't really see how additional lanes could be added without a major reconstruction. It would probably make more sense to twin or replace the Jacques-Cartier.

https://goo.gl/maps/ntKTM6UVWAR2

When the St. Lawrence Seaway - St. Lambert Lock was constructed in the '50s.....the eastern end of the Victoria Bridge was reconstructed with a lift span inserted and a bypass constructed to the south so rail or road traffic could continue unimpeded if a ship was locking through.

https://goo.gl/maps/egqu87zcc2q
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: vdeane on December 24, 2018, 03:10:58 PM
It's worth noting that the new bridge may be under-utilized due to the rather high tolls charged for crossing it.

After extensive protests from the national government in Quebec, Trudeau had the federal government drop the demand that the new bridge be tolled.
My comment was in response to Beltway's comment regarding the A-25 bridge.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on December 31, 2018, 11:54:10 PM
It's worth noting that the new bridge may be under-utilized due to the rather high tolls charged for crossing it.

After extensive protests from the national government in Quebec, Trudeau had the federal government drop the demand that the new bridge be tolled.
My comment was in response to Beltway's comment regarding the A-25 bridge.

Trudeau removed toll on the future Samuel-de Champlain Bridge.

About Olivier-Charbonneau (A-25) Bridge, there was a deal between the operator and the MTQ; if AADT comes over a certain amount of vehicles per day, the toll has to be strongly increased, creating an effect to remove traffic from that bridge.  That's probably why the toll increased strongly in the last years, because at the opening of the bridge, the toll was quite reasonable.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: vdeane on January 01, 2019, 08:39:58 PM
Not to mention, there's a significant increase in the toll amount for not having a transponder, and the transponder has a monthly charge.  Meanwhile on the Thruway, the cash/bill by mail tolls are not much more than the NY E-ZPass rate, and there are no fees of any kind for having a transponder (there is a $25 deposit for opening an account, but the entire amount can be used for tolls with automatic account replenishment).  And the A-25 transponder isn't interoperable with anything, not even A-30!  I don't think I've even heard of a metro area having two, non-interoperable transponders anywhere else.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on January 09, 2019, 12:17:20 AM
A new picture of the Samuel-de Champlain Bridge was posted on Reddit: https://i.redd.it/7ossbsh0ka921.png
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: ATLRedSoxFan on January 09, 2019, 01:55:15 AM
It's gonna be a nice looking bridge, no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on January 21, 2019, 01:29:33 AM
Not to mention, there's a significant increase in the toll amount for not having a transponder, and the transponder has a monthly charge.  Meanwhile on the Thruway, the cash/bill by mail tolls are not much more than the NY E-ZPass rate, and there are no fees of any kind for having a transponder (there is a $25 deposit for opening an account, but the entire amount can be used for tolls with automatic account replenishment).  And the A-25 transponder isn't interoperable with anything, not even A-30!  I don't think I've even heard of a metro area having two, non-interoperable transponders anywhere else.

I don't know how the Thruway Authority works with state administrations about pay-by-the-license-plate, but in QC, A-25 administration cannot keep SAAQ information on file, so it must request the info at each and every passage on the bridge, at about over 5$ per shot. That's why it's so expensive without the transponder.  At least, it's what they say.

On the fact that A-25 transponder does not work on A-30 (and vice-versa), it seems that the MTQ did not put in their contract with those hiighways operators that their transponders must work on other highways, so each highway operator built up his own system, without any connectivity with others. It's a standard in province of Quebec; everyone works for himself! It would be too easy to work with others; imagine a "Québécois" transponder that works with EZ-Pass!
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on January 25, 2019, 06:36:32 PM
From what I could see when driving home today, the gap between the two sides of the southbound carriageway is down to about 1-2 meters.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 05, 2019, 05:39:19 PM
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2019/04/04/le-nouveau-pont-ouvrirait-le-3-juin

The new bridge is scheduled to open on 3 June northbound, and 17 June southbound
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Alps on April 05, 2019, 10:39:11 PM
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2019/04/04/le-nouveau-pont-ouvrirait-le-3-juin

The new bridge is scheduled to open on 3 June northbound, and 17 June southbound
Road meet expected 6/8 or 6/15.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: vdeane on April 06, 2019, 11:07:46 PM
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2019/04/04/le-nouveau-pont-ouvrirait-le-3-juin

The new bridge is scheduled to open on 3 June northbound, and 17 June southbound
Maybe it's just Chrome's translation, but it looks from the article like the federal government doesn't think the bridge will actually be open by then.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Alps on April 07, 2019, 01:59:38 AM
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2019/04/04/le-nouveau-pont-ouvrirait-le-3-juin

The new bridge is scheduled to open on 3 June northbound, and 17 June southbound
Maybe it's just Chrome's translation, but it looks from the article like the federal government doesn't think the bridge will actually be open by then.
That's correct. Contractor says earlier, Feds say later. I guess we'll see...
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: webfil on April 07, 2019, 11:04:10 PM
https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2019/04/04/le-nouveau-pont-ouvrirait-le-3-juin

The new bridge is scheduled to open on 3 June northbound, and 17 June southbound
Maybe it's just Chrome's translation, but it looks from the article like the federal government doesn't think the bridge will actually be open by then.
That's correct. Contractor says earlier, Feds say later. I guess we'll see...
Pre-electoral ribbon cutting. There's a campaign coming up late next summer or early next fall. A multi-billion-dollar bridge inauguration is always a good Kodak Moment®
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Duke87 on April 08, 2019, 12:02:30 AM
I don't think I've even heard of a metro area having two, non-interoperable transponders anywhere else.

Miami comes to mind - Rickenbacker Causeway does not take SunPass (which all the other toll roads in the area do), but they do have their own "C-Pass".
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: webfil on April 08, 2019, 12:43:01 PM
I don't think I've even heard of a metro area having two, non-interoperable transponders anywhere else.

Miami comes to mind - Rickenbacker Causeway does not take SunPass (which all the other toll roads in the area do), but they do have their own "C-Pass".
C-Pass is not accepted anymore; Sun Pass is.
https://www.miamidade.gov/parks/rickenbacker.asp
https://www.sunpass.com/en/tolls/tollsSunPass.shtml

EDIT : This just shows non-interoperability is not a sealed fate. It just takes some political will and a reasonable motive (whether engineeral or economical).
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Joe The Dragon on April 09, 2019, 12:42:28 AM
I don't think I've even heard of a metro area having two, non-interoperable transponders anywhere else.

Miami comes to mind - Rickenbacker Causeway does not take SunPass (which all the other toll roads in the area do), but they do have their own "C-Pass".
C-Pass is not accepted anymore; Sun Pass is.
https://www.miamidade.gov/parks/rickenbacker.asp
https://www.sunpass.com/en/tolls/tollsSunPass.shtml

EDIT : This just shows non-interoperability is not a sealed fate. It just takes some political will and a reasonable motive (whether engineeral or economical).
we need an senator or congressman to get hit with the insane rent a car toll fees to force change.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on April 14, 2019, 11:22:05 PM
I don't think I've even heard of a metro area having two, non-interoperable transponders anywhere else.

Miami comes to mind - Rickenbacker Causeway does not take SunPass (which all the other toll roads in the area do), but they do have their own "C-Pass".
C-Pass is not accepted anymore; Sun Pass is.
https://www.miamidade.gov/parks/rickenbacker.asp
https://www.sunpass.com/en/tolls/tollsSunPass.shtml

EDIT : This just shows non-interoperability is not a sealed fate. It just takes some political will and a reasonable motive (whether engineeral or economical).

...and in Quebec, for sure, a politician having some political will and a reasonable motive at the same time will definitely be accused of corruption.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Stephane Dumas on June 02, 2019, 03:58:44 PM
On a off-topic sidenote, here an overview of the new Champlain bridge filmed last May.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on June 12, 2019, 09:55:27 PM
So, I drove up to Montréal today for my June work trip.

From what I could see, it looks most of the signage is up on the new bridge, but they were working on installing the safety barriers at the apex of the new bridge, where it crosses over the seaway.

I couldn't tell for certain from my vantage point, going into the city while trying not to be smushed by a semi that just didn't want to stay in his lane, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is still some work to be done to configure temporary, much less permanent, ramps for the interchange on the south side of the bridge.  On the Montréal side of the bridge...I can make an educated guess on how they will be reconfiguring exits, based on some currently-covered signs, and some currently-visible signs on closed roadways.

Has a new opening date been announced?   I'm guessing that this evening's crossing might have been the last time I'll get to drive the old bridge northbound.  I'm looking forward to not repeating the experience.  :)
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on June 17, 2019, 08:51:04 AM
https://www.985fm.ca/nouvelles/politique/226850/primeur-le-pont-samuel-de-champlain-ouvrira-un-premier-troncon-le-24-juin

New bridge opens northbound the morning of 24 June, and southbound on 1 July.  Opening ceremony is 28 June.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: froggie on June 17, 2019, 09:57:01 PM
Anyone up for a quick Montreal trip on the weekend in between?
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: 1995hoo on June 24, 2019, 10:52:15 PM
The bridge opened (one way only so far) as advertised today, per the evening news on local TV here in Toronto tonight. They didn’t have any interesting pictures, though.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: KEVIN_224 on June 25, 2019, 07:06:18 AM
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/drivers-line-up-to-be-the-first-across-new-champlain-bridge

I saw this link at least. The outbound direction FROM Montreal will open on Monday, July 1st (Canada Day).
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: ixnay on June 25, 2019, 08:31:08 AM
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/drivers-line-up-to-be-the-first-across-new-champlain-bridge

I saw this link at least. The outbound direction FROM Montreal will open on Monday, July 1st (Canada Day).

Like the new Tappan Zee Bridge(es) (and IIRC the Zakim Bridge as well), they're opening *just* one direction at a time for no good reason that I can see.  What prevented both directions from being opened at once?

ixnay
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on June 25, 2019, 10:17:39 AM
^ Construction staging.  The old northbound lanes need to be removed before the new southbound lanes can be tied in to the new bridge.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on June 25, 2019, 11:20:14 AM
^ Construction staging.  The old northbound lanes need to be removed before the new southbound lanes can be tied in to the new bridge.

...and ramps to/from the southbound lanes.

https://goo.gl/maps/qEhk8GadTzmu5YdB7

As of this writing, the imagery is dated, but you can see the where the new bridge is located "east" of the old bridge.  The northbound lanes, as of a couple of weeks ago, were pretty much in-line with the new bridge, to the extent that someone (a roadgeek perhaps) driving northbound might have been tempted to drive onto the new bridge had they not been paying attention to the barriers and the roadway shift to the old bridge.

The path from the southbound span to the southbound roadway on both sides of the bridge crosses the old northbound roadways.  The new ramp for traffic for southbound 15 likewise crosses the old roadway.  The extra week gives crews a chance to almost finish the connections without additional northbound closures.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on June 25, 2019, 11:24:08 AM
I just came across two bits of video that might be of interest here:

This MTLBlog article (https://www.mtlblog.com/news/canada/qc/montreal/montreals-all-new-samuel-de-champlain-bridge-is-now-open-video) has an embedded video shot by someone crossing the new bridge around sunset yesterday.  The quality's not great, but...

And somehow I missed this post on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/montreal/comments/bu9lr2/montreals_new_rgb_bridge/) where someone shared what I hope is just a test of the decorative LED lights on the new bridge.


EDIT:  MUCH better video of crossing the new bridge:
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on June 28, 2019, 11:43:34 PM
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/drivers-line-up-to-be-the-first-across-new-champlain-bridge

I saw this link at least. The outbound direction FROM Montreal will open on Monday, July 1st (Canada Day).

Like the new Tappan Zee Bridge(es) (and IIRC the Zakim Bridge as well), they're opening *just* one direction at a time for no good reason that I can see.  What prevented both directions from being opened at once?

ixnay

In that case, the new Samuel-de-Champlain Bridge replaces the actual Champlain Bridge, that is still open, so the workers took the June 21-to-24 long week-end (June 24th is a day off in province of Quebec) to demolish approaches of the former bridge, and connect the new bridge to the actual highway on northbound side.  From tonight, and for the next long week-end (June 28-to-July 1st, this day being Canada Day), they will do the same operation on southbound side.  All of this in order to avoid stopping the traffic for too much time; the total closing time for both operations will be a bit  less than three days (Friday at night to Monday in the morning). In the Greater Montreal Area, the traffic situation is as deficient that just closing a bridge for one week would be catastrophic.

When building a brand-new highway from scratch, both sides of the bridge opens at the same time, as of the opening of the Olivier-Charbonneau Bridge, on a brand-new strecth of Autoroute 25, between Montreal and Laval, on May 21st, 2011.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: froggie on July 01, 2019, 06:28:48 PM
Here's a few quick photos (https://www.facebook.com/groups/96206174878/permalink/10158096825164879/) I took of the inbound/northbound side this morning.  FreewayJim is a public group so you shouldn't need a Facebook account to view it.  I also took video of both directions that I hope to post by tomorrow.
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: MikeTheActuary on July 14, 2019, 01:42:00 PM
Bilingual signage?  That's a sure sign of Ottawa's involvement!
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: webfil on July 14, 2019, 03:07:51 PM
Bilingual signage?  That's a sure sign of Ottawa's involvement!
PJCCI, a federal crown corporation, owns Champlain and Jacques-Cartier bridges, as well as Meocheville tunnel, Bonaventure Autoroute, A-15 south of La Vérendrye exit and the part of Mercier bridge over the seaway, explaining the off-par signage. PJCCI uses bilingual signage by default, in accordance with section 23 (1) of the Official Languages Act (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/o-3.01/FullText.html#h-384283). Mercier has french-only signage even on the federal part, though ― I couldn't explain.

In Québec, the other provincial highway with bilingual signage that I know of (some municipalities do enjoy a bilingual status) outside federal parks and away from borders is Victoria bridge, owned by the CN Railway. Signage is not only off-par; it's subpar. That place is a sign hellhole (https://goo.gl/maps/8j4kwTk2jEfeJZ4Q8).
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: Richard3 on July 19, 2019, 03:15:08 AM
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.3720899,-73.7078161,3a,75y,80.17h,106.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJGp-jN9TXfTbpDk3M--CkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=fr

On this link, from Google Street View, we can see a sign, written in Mohawk language, for the bus-reserved lane on shoulder. That reserved lane was built when QC-132/QC-138, between Chateauguay limits and Blind Lady's Hill Road, in Kahnawake, was redone by the MTQ about 10-15 years ago.  On the distance, signs alternate from Mohawk language to French language, with not a single sign in English. But the most spoken languages in Kahnawake are Mohawk and English. And not necessarily in that order!

How can we explain that?
Title: Re: Montreal: Champlain Bridge Opening Postponed to June 2019
Post by: cbeach40 on July 22, 2019, 10:06:28 AM
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.3720899,-73.7078161,3a,75y,80.17h,106.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJGp-jN9TXfTbpDk3M--CkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=fr

On this link, from Google Street View, we can see a sign, written in Mohawk language, for the bus-reserved lane on shoulder. That reserved lane was built when QC-132/QC-138, between Chateauguay limits and Blind Lady's Hill Road, in Kahnawake, was redone by the MTQ about 10-15 years ago.  On the distance, signs alternate from Mohawk language to French language, with not a single sign in English. But the most spoken languages in Kahnawake are Mohawk and English. And not necessarily in that order!

How can we explain that?

Québec politics for the last 60+ years.