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Regional Boards => Mid-Atlantic => Topic started by: bing101 on March 09, 2019, 08:31:16 PM

Title: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: bing101 on March 09, 2019, 08:31:16 PM


Video by InterstateKS
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Mapmikey on March 09, 2019, 09:20:49 PM
Potholes are so bad on the B-W Pkwy this year that the NPS just lowered the speed limit to 40 mph (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/park-service-fix-for-potholes-slow-traffic-so-motorists-can-better-dodge-them/2019/03/09/4d1dc89a-3f62-11e9-a0d3-1210e58a94cf_story.html?utm_term=.ac91faf2b2d2) between MD 197 and MD 32.

The potholes in the DC area have been worse this year than the last couple, at least where I regularly go...
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: dlsterner on March 09, 2019, 11:31:45 PM
Potholes are so bad on the B-W Pkwy this year that the NPS just lowered the speed limit to 40 mph (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/park-service-fix-for-potholes-slow-traffic-so-motorists-can-better-dodge-them/2019/03/09/4d1dc89a-3f62-11e9-a0d3-1210e58a94cf_story.html?utm_term=.ac91faf2b2d2) between MD 197 and MD 32.

The potholes in the DC area have been worse this year than the last couple, at least where I regularly go...
Unfortunately I have to drive that daily (well Mon-Fri).  It's like a mine field masquerading as a highway.  So everybody ends up getting into the left lane which is in better shape - which leads to its own set of problems.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: MASTERNC on March 10, 2019, 08:19:33 PM
Potholes are so bad on the B-W Pkwy this year that the NPS just lowered the speed limit to 40 mph (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/park-service-fix-for-potholes-slow-traffic-so-motorists-can-better-dodge-them/2019/03/09/4d1dc89a-3f62-11e9-a0d3-1210e58a94cf_story.html?utm_term=.ac91faf2b2d2) between MD 197 and MD 32.

The potholes in the DC area have been worse this year than the last couple, at least where I regularly go...

It was bad enough four weeks ago.  Went down there again and exited onto the Beltway and I-95 when leaving DC instead of staying on the Parkway (GPS was going to take me the B-W Parkway and then I-895, which had single lane bridge and tunnel construction this weekend).
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: epzik8 on March 11, 2019, 07:40:46 PM
I have driven the Parkway numerous times.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: NJRoadfan on March 11, 2019, 09:20:38 PM
It was bad enough four weeks ago.  Went down there again and exited onto the Beltway and I-95 when leaving DC instead of staying on the Parkway (GPS was going to take me the B-W Parkway and then I-895, which had single lane bridge and tunnel construction this weekend).

The NPS section is looking worse than the section maintained by the City of Baltimore! Impressive in a not so good way. One can take the Parkway to I-95, but it involves a bumpy ride for a mile while in city limits.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: TheOneKEA on April 05, 2019, 06:05:57 PM
I have heard anecdotally that signs have been posted at the NPS maintenance boundary that loudly and conspicuously advertise that MD 295 south of there is not maintained by the SHA. Does anyone have any photos of these signs?
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: NJRoadfan on April 05, 2019, 11:41:31 PM
They aren't that big, but larger than most jurisdictional boundary markers.

https://goo.gl/maps/eucfi7W93ow

They are a recent installation as there were much smaller signs there prior to 2017.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: famartin on April 09, 2019, 05:23:31 PM
They aren't that big, but larger than most jurisdictional boundary markers.

https://goo.gl/maps/eucfi7W93ow

They are a recent installation as there were much smaller signs there prior to 2017.

Signs like that aren't that common in MD, but also not unique. This is a more unique sign combo I found in St. Mary's a few years ago...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2016-05-18_11_23_40_Signs_marking_the_end_of_county_maintenance_and_beginning_of_state_maintenance_at_the_north_end_of_Maryland_State_Route_471_(Indian_Bridge_Road)_at_the_Saint_Mary%27s_River_bridge_in_California,_St._Mary%27s_County,_Maryland.jpg
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/2016-05-18_11_23_40_Signs_marking_the_end_of_county_maintenance_and_beginning_of_state_maintenance_at_the_north_end_of_Maryland_State_Route_471_%28Indian_Bridge_Road%29_at_the_Saint_Mary%27s_River_bridge_in_California%2C_St._Mary%27s_County%2C_Maryland.jpg/320px-thumbnail.jpg)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2016-05-18_11_44_32_Signs_marking_the_end_of_county_maintenance_and_beginning_of_state_maintenance_at_the_south_end_of_Maryland_State_Route_249_(Piney_Point_Road)_near_Arthur_Fenwick_Lane_in_Piney_Point,_St._Mary%27s_County,_Maryland.jpg
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/2016-05-18_11_44_32_Signs_marking_the_end_of_county_maintenance_and_beginning_of_state_maintenance_at_the_south_end_of_Maryland_State_Route_249_%28Piney_Point_Road%29_near_Arthur_Fenwick_Lane_in_Piney_Point%2C_St._Mary%27s_County%2C_Maryland.jpg/360px-thumbnail.jpg)
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 25, 2019, 05:22:09 PM
And I've been on there many times, I don't get why it's only four lanes. It sucks as it gets so congested! It needs to be 6 or 8 lanes all the way. It's a nice bypass of I-95. My dad has also been complaining that it needs widening and I agree with him as well.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 25, 2019, 08:13:13 PM
And I've been on there many times, I don't get why it's only four lanes. It sucks as it gets so congested! It needs to be 6 or 8 lanes all the way. It's a nice bypass of I-95. My dad has also been complaining that it needs widening and I agree with him as well.

Problem in that the Parkway is owned by the National Park Service (NPS), a unit of the U.S. Department of the Interior between the southern end at U.S. 50 in the Tuxedo area of Prince George's County, Maryland and just south of the interchange at MD-175 in the Odenton area of Anne Arundel County, a distance of about 19 miles one-way.  NPS is chronically under-funded and cannot afford a widening project like that (and has difficulty keeping the parkways it owns properly maintained as it s).  North of MD-175 the Parkway is maintained by the MDOT/SHA, except for the short portion in Baltimore City leading to I-95, which is under municipal maintenance.

Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 27, 2019, 04:04:02 PM
And I've been on there many times, I don't get why it's only four lanes. It sucks as it gets so congested! It needs to be 6 or 8 lanes all the way. It's a nice bypass of I-95. My dad has also been complaining that it needs widening and I agree with him as well.

Problem in that the Parkway is owned by the National Park Service (NPS), a unit of the U.S. Department of the Interior between the southern end at U.S. 50 in the Tuxedo area of Prince George's County, Maryland and just south of the interchange at MD-175 in the Odenton area of Anne Arundel County, a distance of about 19 miles one-way.  NPS is chronically under-funded and cannot afford a widening project like that (and has difficulty keeping the parkways it owns properly maintained as it s).  North of MD-175 the Parkway is maintained by the MDOT/SHA, except for the short portion in Baltimore City leading to I-95, which is under municipal maintenance.

Well that sucks that it cannot be widened. People have also been debating that they should add a bike lane in each direction.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 27, 2019, 04:24:00 PM
People have also been debating that they should add a bike lane in each direction.
Maybe an off-road multi-use trail, but a bike lane would be extremely dangerous on a roadway that serves as a major freeway.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 27, 2019, 04:28:44 PM
I think MD-295 should have exit numbers (mileage-based, of course). Most of the other freeways/tollways in Maryland have exit numbers.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 27, 2019, 04:30:10 PM
People have also been debating that they should add a bike lane in each direction.
Maybe an off-road multi-use trail, but a bike lane would be extremely dangerous on a roadway that serves as a major freeway.

Yeah, have trees around the bike lanes make it a trail, that parallels the highway.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 27, 2019, 04:31:36 PM
I think MD-295 should have exit numbers (mileage-based, of course). Most of the other freeways/tollways in Maryland have exit numbers.

I also don't get how it looks like. It doesn't even look like an expressway or freeway. It looks like a major throughfare without exit numbers and what not. Thats probably why the speed limit is only 55.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 27, 2019, 04:34:21 PM
I think MD-295 should have exit numbers (mileage-based, of course). Most of the other freeways/tollways in Maryland have exit numbers.

I also don't get how it looks like. It doesn't even look like an expressway or freeway. It looks like a major throughfare without exit numbers and what not. Thats probably why the speed limit is only 55.
You see highways like this all over New York City and the surrounding areas. There's the parkways which have substandard designs and then you have the expressways which are mostly interstate highways that still are substandard.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 27, 2019, 05:21:11 PM
I think MD-295 should have exit numbers (mileage-based, of course). Most of the other freeways/tollways in Maryland have exit numbers.

I also don't get how it looks like. It doesn't even look like an expressway or freeway. It looks like a major throughfare without exit numbers and what not. Thats probably why the speed limit is only 55.
You see highways like this all over New York City and the surrounding areas. There's the parkways which have substandard designs and then you have the expressways which are mostly interstate highways that still are substandard.

I mean, they are nice to drive on but there's no way to upgrade them to interstate standards.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: mrsman on July 28, 2019, 12:01:15 PM
I think MD-295 should have exit numbers (mileage-based, of course). Most of the other freeways/tollways in Maryland have exit numbers.

I also don't get how it looks like. It doesn't even look like an expressway or freeway. It looks like a major throughfare without exit numbers and what not. Thats probably why the speed limit is only 55.
You see highways like this all over New York City and the surrounding areas. There's the parkways which have substandard designs and then you have the expressways which are mostly interstate highways that still are substandard.

I mean, they are nice to drive on but there's no way to upgrade them to interstate standards.

I hope that the governor will push to take over the BW Pkwy from the National Park Service.  If the road were under state jurisdiction, we can upgrade the road and put in toll lanes to widen the stretch between MD 175 (about halfway between DC and Baltimore) and the DC line.  Currently, it's a 2-2 roadway, with a lot of deficiencies in design and signage.  Perhaps they can even upgrade it for truck usage as trucks are allowed on the MD-295 and DC-295 portions south of NPS's zone of maintenance.

The BW Parkway is the only direct roadway (without signals) from Baltimore to DC.  The roadway is busy enough to justify 3-3 free or 2-2-2-2 (with middle lanes being toll lanes).  A reversible tollway of 2-2-2 may also work, but 2-2-2-2 is preferred.

I believe that the widening of the Parkway would not require too many houses and businesses being condemned, because the Parkway has a wide median and otherwise has a generous ROW.  [There is some consternation over proposed Beltway widening because of the loss to homes and businesses, especially in the Silver Spring area.]
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 28, 2019, 12:09:18 PM
I think MD-295 should have exit numbers (mileage-based, of course). Most of the other freeways/tollways in Maryland have exit numbers.

I also don't get how it looks like. It doesn't even look like an expressway or freeway. It looks like a major throughfare without exit numbers and what not. Thats probably why the speed limit is only 55.
You see highways like this all over New York City and the surrounding areas. There's the parkways which have substandard designs and then you have the expressways which are mostly interstate highways that still are substandard.

I mean, they are nice to drive on but there's no way to upgrade them to interstate standards.

I hope that the governor will push to take over the BW Pkwy from the National Park Service.  If the road were under state jurisdiction, we can upgrade the road and put in toll lanes to widen the stretch between MD 175 (about halfway between DC and Baltimore) and the DC line.  Currently, it's a 2-2 roadway, with a lot of deficiencies in design and signage.  Perhaps they can even upgrade it for truck usage as trucks are allowed on the MD-295 and DC-295 portions south of NPS's zone of maintenance.

The BW Parkway is the only direct roadway (without signals) from Baltimore to DC.  The roadway is busy enough to justify 3-3 free or 2-2-2-2 (with middle lanes being toll lanes).  A reversible tollway of 2-2-2 may also work, but 2-2-2-2 is preferred.

I believe that the widening of the Parkway would not require too many houses and businesses being condemned, because the Parkway has a wide median and otherwise has a generous ROW.  [There is some consternation over proposed Beltway widening because of the loss to homes and businesses, especially in the Silver Spring area.]
It's about time they widen it because it can only hold maybe 40,000 or 50,000 vehicles per day. The beltway and route 32 interchanges SUCK.

Route 32 interchange should be relocated south of the original one.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Rothman on July 28, 2019, 12:47:17 PM
Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Alps on July 28, 2019, 02:37:58 PM
Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Rothman on July 28, 2019, 03:47:48 PM


Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 28, 2019, 03:53:15 PM
NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.
NYSDOT is not MDOT.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Rothman on July 28, 2019, 04:27:24 PM
NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.
NYSDOT is not MDOT.
And I bet MD and most states have a similar split due to the federal apportionment formulas and state tax revenues.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 28, 2019, 06:21:27 PM
NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.
NYSDOT is not MDOT.
And I bet MD and most states have a similar split due to the federal apportionment formulas and state tax revenues.

I'm not sure if they are too lazy to fix or widen ANYTHING. Because there's a big gap of I-95 express lanes just sitting there and not being expanded. And MD 295 they are not doing anything at all. Although they are studying I-95 west of it because of northbound traffic gets congested.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Alps on July 28, 2019, 08:42:57 PM


Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: famartin on July 28, 2019, 09:09:45 PM


Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

NPSs arguement has always been that their parkways were never meant to become the commuter routes they now are. Of course, that would suggest that these roads do indeed need to be taken over by agencies more suited to their current usage.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 28, 2019, 09:14:44 PM


Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

NPSs arguement has always been that their parkways were never meant to become the commuter routes they now are. Of course, that would suggest that these roads do indeed need to be taken over by agencies more suited to their current usage.
Wasn't the parkway built specifically as a main highway between DC and Baltimore? IIRC, it was the first limited-access highway between the two cities. It should've been expected it would draw a lot of traffic and become a major highway.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Rothman on July 28, 2019, 09:21:13 PM


Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

If the NPS was properly funded, then they'd get the work done.  Their overall maintenance backlog and woeful understaffing is staggering.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Rothman on July 28, 2019, 09:23:10 PM


Any governor that would push to take over a facility that needs millions to fix would be an absolute idiot.  There is no way MD could absorb that kind of fiscal liability.

Just give the NPS the funding to fix the road!
:-D
"Just have the Federal government fund road repairs!"
Man. I want what you're having. And more lanes on the BW.

Huh?  The bulk of transportation funding is federal.  NYSDOT's federal spending is probably around 70% of its capital program.  So, yes, fund the NPS, feds, rather than squeeze that liability into MD's capital program.
Granted all of that, but the NPS does not receive much funding for roads. The roads the Feds maintain are basically left to rot - see the GW Pkwy. potholes that became famous earlier this year.

NPSs arguement has always been that their parkways were never meant to become the commuter routes they now are. Of course, that would suggest that these roads do indeed need to be taken over by agencies more suited to their current usage.
Wasn't the parkway built specifically as a main highway between DC and Baltimore? IIRC, it was the first limited-access highway between the two cities. It should've been expected it would draw a lot of traffic and become a major highway.

I think it's more likely that the "parkway" was meant to be like the parkways in NY were originally intended:  As routes for the rich to drive on in their leisure time. 

If MD was to take it over and I were governor, I'd insist that it be eligible for 90% NHPP funding and demand an increase in apportionment and obligation limitation to cover the immediate needs.  The feds would probably balk at that, since they haven't looked at highway data for core apportionments in over a decade.  Recent federal acts were based upon FFY 09 apportionment percentages (e.g. FAST Act).

And, to be frank, there does seem to be some recent FHWA actions that seem more than politically motivated to hurt (well, poke, anyway) blue states.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Beltway on July 28, 2019, 10:40:49 PM
It is -highly- unlikely that the NPS would -ever- give up control over one of its parkways in the Baltimore-Washington area.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: froggie on July 28, 2019, 10:50:35 PM
Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible.  And I distinctly recall articles in the local media within the past year suggesting that NPS was in preliminary negotiations with Maryland about taking over more of the BW Pkwy....with the caveat that any official transfer would require Congressional legislation.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Beltway on July 28, 2019, 11:01:35 PM
Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible.  And I distinctly recall articles in the local media within the past year suggesting that NPS was in preliminary negotiations with Maryland about taking over more of the BW Pkwy....with the caveat that any official transfer would require Congressional legislation.

There were proposals back in the 1980s to widen it to 8 lanes and upgrade to Interstate standards and allow trucks, but NPS objected so strenuously that it hasn't come up since.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: froggie on July 28, 2019, 11:02:53 PM
I know you don't like the WaPo...but they've had a couple articles on the resurrection of the idea (I believe coming from Governor Hogan) within the past year.  Perhaps that's why you weren't aware of the recent push?
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Beltway on July 28, 2019, 11:04:44 PM
I know you don't like the WaPo...but they've had a couple articles on the resurrection of the idea (I believe coming from Governor Hogan) within the past year.  Perhaps that's why you weren't aware of the recent push?

The state governor wouldn't seem to have much influence over a federal agency ... who was proposing it and what agency?
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: froggie on July 28, 2019, 11:06:29 PM
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/06/feds-md-agree-to-work-toward-b-w-parkway-toll-lanes/
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 28, 2019, 11:10:54 PM
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/06/feds-md-agree-to-work-toward-b-w-parkway-toll-lanes/

That's some need stuff. It's about time that the highway needs widening. and look at all the other highways in Northern Virginia, DC, and Maryland. It's TERRIBLE. That's a reason why i don't like driving through there.

I hope that they would fix interchanges and not just widen the highway.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Beltway on July 28, 2019, 11:17:48 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 29, 2019, 02:45:48 PM
Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible.  And I distinctly recall articles in the local media within the past year suggesting that NPS was in preliminary negotiations with Maryland about taking over more of the BW Pkwy....with the caveat that any official transfer would require Congressional legislation.

There were proposals back in the 1980s to widen it to 8 lanes and upgrade to Interstate standards and allow trucks, but NPS objected so strenuously that it hasn't come up since.

But the senior MDOT and MDOT/SHA staff really did not want to have the added expense of maintaining the federal part of the B-W Parkway.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 29, 2019, 02:48:09 PM
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/06/feds-md-agree-to-work-toward-b-w-parkway-toll-lanes/

This would require approval of the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate.  I am not at all sure that the Maryland Democratic members of either body are interested in approving such a proposal.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 29, 2019, 08:03:29 PM
I've always figured the NPS would want to get out of the highway business in the DC area, and instead focus on, you know, parks. The GW parkway is typically atrocious of course - definitely eat-or-be-eaten on that roadway. BW isn't any better - not a good place to break down.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 29, 2019, 09:55:17 PM
Wasn't the parkway built specifically as a main highway between DC and Baltimore? IIRC, it was the first limited-access highway between the two cities. It should've been expected it would draw a lot of traffic and become a major highway.

Though they were not Interstate highways, several of the NPS Parkways in and near Washington, D.C. were built to provide a highway under federal control and ownership between D.C. and military bases located outside the city.   So far, some of the parkways have been used one time to get troops to and from D.C. - during and immediately after the April, 1968 riots in D.C. following the assassination of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

The B-W Parkway was built in part to provide such a connection between Fort George G. Meade in Anne Arundel County and Washington - and in particular to provide a high-speed road to the National Security Agency (which moved to Fort Meade in the 1950's not long before the parkway was completed).

The southern George Washington Memorial Parkway was built to the south to provide a connection to George Washington's Mount Vernon, but also to provide a federal road connection to Fort Belvoir (though between Mount Vernon and the gate at Fort Belvoir, VA-235 must be used).

The northern part of the GWMP and the Clara Barton Parkway were built to provide a highway connection to what is now called the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Carderock Division on the Clara Baron Parkway near the Maryland end of the American Legion Bridge. In the past, U.S. Army troops have been encamped there for some reason in tents, even though this place is a U.S. Navy base.

The Suitland Parkway was built to provide a connection to Joint Base Andrews (formerly Andrews Air Force Base), even though the D.C. part is now maintained by DDOT, it is used by dignitaries (foreign and domestic) to travel by highway between Andrews and downtown D.C.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 29, 2019, 09:57:26 PM
The Suitland Parkway was built to provide a connection to Joint Base Andrews (formerly Andrews Air Force Base), even though the D.C. part is now maintained by DDOT, it is used by dignitaries (foreign and domestic) to travel between Andrews and downtown D.C.

Fun fact - no Beltway connection despite an overpass!
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 29, 2019, 10:02:33 PM
I've always figured the NPS would want to get out of the highway business in the DC area, and instead focus on, you know, parks. The GW parkway is typically atrocious of course - definitely eat-or-be-eaten on that roadway. BW isn't any better - not a good place to break down.

One major reason why the states may not wish to deal with the current NPS parkways, in addition to not being state-of-the-art freeways, and needing a lot of work on infrastructure like stormwater management and drainage. Both the Baltimore-Washington and George Washington Memorial Parkway are on the National Register of Historical Places (both were added in the 1990s), which makes modification of any kind difficult, expensive and time-consuming (but not impossible). 

I did not check to see if the Suitland Parkway, Clara Barton  Parkway, Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway and Beach Drive (at least the D.C. part) are on the National Register or not, but they may well be.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 29, 2019, 10:14:31 PM
The Suitland Parkway was built to provide a connection to Joint Base Andrews (formerly Andrews Air Force Base), even though the D.C. part is now maintained by DDOT, it is used by dignitaries (foreign and domestic) to travel between Andrews and downtown D.C.
Fun fact - no Beltway connection despite an overpass!

Fun fact - no room on the Capital Beltway between the half interchange at Forestville Road (signed MD-337 on the Inner Loop) and the cloverleaf interchange at MD-4 (Pennsylvania Avenue Extended).   On the Outer Loop, it is about 0.7 miles between the end of the entrance ramp from Forestville Road and MD-337 to the beginning of the exit ramp for MD-4 eastbound.   On the Inner Loop it is about 0.8 miles from the entrance ramp from MD-4 eastbound to the exit ramp for Forestville Road. 

I suspect that the SRC engineers (and their consulting engineers) that designed the Maryland part of the Capital Beltway also assumed that reaching the Suitland Parkway from the Beltway would not be unreasonable by way of MD-4 east to the Maryland end of the Parkway, or by MD-4 west to Forestville Road to the at-grade signalized intersection with the parkway.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 29, 2019, 10:32:27 PM
The Suitland Parkway was built to provide a connection to Joint Base Andrews (formerly Andrews Air Force Base), even though the D.C. part is now maintained by DDOT, it is used by dignitaries (foreign and domestic) to travel between Andrews and downtown D.C.
Fun fact - no Beltway connection despite an overpass!

Fun fact - no room on the Capital Beltway between the half interchange at Forestville Road (signed MD-337 on the Inner Loop) and the cloverleaf interchange at MD-4 (Pennsylvania Avenue Extended).   On the Outer Loop, it is about 0.7 miles between the end of the entrance ramp from Forestville Road and MD-337 to the beginning of the exit ramp for MD-4 eastbound.   On the Inner Loop it is about 0.8 miles from the entrance ramp from MD-4 eastbound to the exit ramp for Forestville Road. 

I suspect that the SRC engineers (and their consulting engineers) that designed the Maryland part of the Capital Beltway also assumed that reaching the Suitland Parkway from the Beltway would not be unreasonable by way of MD-4 east to the Maryland end of the Parkway, or by MD-4 west to Forestville Road to the at-grade signalized intersection with the parkway.
I think his comment wasn't referring to building an interchange now, rather an interchange should have been provided between the two from the beginning when the Beltway was built in the 60s.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 29, 2019, 11:29:12 PM
I think his comment wasn't referring to building an interchange now, rather an interchange should have been provided between the two from the beginning when the Beltway was built in the 60s.

I cannot speak for him on that.  But what is there today (in terms of interchange ramps) was there when the Capital Beltway was completed and opened to traffic in 1964 (I remember the road then). Also consider that Andrews AFB then (Joint Base Andrews now) employs a lot of people (military and civilian) round-the-clock, and the federal government would likely not have gone along with a proposal to remove the Forestville Road ramps from the planned Beltway. 

The distance between the ramps at the half-interchange at Forestville Road and MD-4 is unchanged from 1964.  It is unworkable now, and it was unworkable then. 

At least MDOT/SHA has  a project under way to replace the signalized iat-grade ntersection at MD-4 and Suitland Parkway with a grade-separated interchange, though progress seems very, very slow.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 29, 2019, 11:38:42 PM
It is unworkable now, and it was unworkable then. 
Remove the ramps at Forestville Rd, and convert the interchange at Suitland Rd into a full interchange. That opens up room for an interchange at Suitland Pkwy.

Use braided ramps also if necessary.

EDIT - Here's a conceptual design that could have worked when I-495 was built and still serve everything the current setup does, with the addition of Suitland Pkwy. In this design, the interchange at Forestville Rd is eliminated.
(https://i.ibb.co/m8j38VS/I495-Suitland.png)
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: froggie on July 30, 2019, 08:45:19 AM
A few things:

- The 4-laning and limited access on Route 4 predates the Beltway.  It was considered a more important route than Suitland Parkway, especially considering there were long-range plans at the time for a freeway upgrade of Route 4 from what is now the Beltway to Upper Marlborough.

- Route 4 is too close to Suitland Parkway to have interchanges at both.  Route 4 was deemed more important.

- More important than having a Suitland Parkway interchange at the Beltway would be a Suitland interchange at Forestville Rd.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2019, 09:05:32 PM
A few things:

- The 4-laning and limited access on Route 4 predates the Beltway.  It was considered a more important route than Suitland Parkway, especially considering there were long-range plans at the time for a freeway upgrade of Route 4 from what is now the Beltway to Upper Marlborough.

Correct.  The four lane MD-4 came to a halt at what is now the signals at Dower House Road in 1964 (many crashes here over the years - this needs to be an interchange).  For reasons not clear, in 1964 the four lanes resumed at the old half interchange at Ritchie Marlboro Road (former MD-221).

Also, the Suitland Parkway was onlu widened to four lane divided from MD-4 to MD-458 (Silver Hill Road) in the early 1990's.  Before that, it was two lanes undivided using what are now the outbound lanes.  The grading work for the inbound lanes was done when the parkway was built, but there was no subgrade or anything else.

Quote
- Route 4 is too close to Suitland Parkway to have interchanges at both.  Route 4 was deemed more important.

Correct. Also consider that prior to the NMSL in 1973, the posted limit here on I-495 was 70 MPH.

Quote
- More important than having a Suitland Parkway interchange at the Beltway would be a Suitland interchange at Forestville Rd.

Also remember that the primary reason for building the Suitland Parkway was to provide federal road access to and from D.C. to what was then Andrews AFB. not the Capital Beltway.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: sprjus4 on August 01, 2019, 06:59:57 AM
to the NMSL in 1973, the posted limit here on I-495 was 70 MPH.
And even today most people still do 65-75 mph on it. Id argue it should be at least 60 mph, or even 65 mph. 70 mph might be acceptable if some of the interchanges were better designed and farther spread out.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: froggie on August 01, 2019, 07:27:40 AM
Quote from: sprjus4
70 mph might be acceptable if some of the interchanges were better designed and farther spread out.

(emphasis mine)

...which runs counter to the idea of having a Suitland Pkwy interchange given its proximity to Route 4.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: sprjus4 on August 01, 2019, 07:36:43 AM
Quote from: sprjus4
70 mph might be acceptable if some of the interchanges were better designed and farther spread out.

(emphasis mine)

...which runs counter to the idea of having a Suitland Pkwy interchange given its proximity to Route 4.
Nowadays an interchange with Suitland Pkwy would be problematic due to close proximity and high traffic volumes, but in a time where I-495 was considered as a rural highway with lighter volumes, it could have been acceptable in a 60s design.

Braided ramps could also be used to eliminate the weaving issues.
Title: Re: MD-295, The Baltimore - Washington Parkway
Post by: Alps on August 01, 2019, 10:10:59 PM
Quote from: sprjus4
70 mph might be acceptable if some of the interchanges were better designed and farther spread out.

(emphasis mine)

...which runs counter to the idea of having a Suitland Pkwy interchange given its proximity to Route 4.
Nowadays an interchange with Suitland Pkwy would be problematic due to close proximity and high traffic volumes, but in a time where I-495 was considered as a rural highway with lighter volumes, it could have been acceptable in a 60s design.

Braided ramps could also be used to eliminate the weaving issues.
That design was never acceptable, even less so on a rural highway where interchanges should be spaced farther. A C-D road might have helped. Braided ramps are a more modern concept.