AARoads Forum

Regional Boards => Mid-Atlantic => Topic started by: kernals12 on December 14, 2020, 10:13:27 PM

Title: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 14, 2020, 10:13:27 PM
The Virginia DOT is considering replacing 3 grade-separated interchanges on Richmond Highway in Arlington near Crystal City with an at-grade boulevard. But the locals are pretty clear that they want them to stay.

In a survey (https://www.crystalcitycivic.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/2020-09-30-L22202-Rt-1-Survey-Handout-1.pdf) taken during a September 30 community meeting held by the group Livability 22202, participants overwhelmingly said they preferred crossing at the overpasses whereas they considered the existing at-grade intersections dangerous and inconvenient, as it requires crossing 6 lanes of traffic. We've had freeway revolts before, but this may be the first boulevard revolt.

In fact, maybe they can talk VDOT into doing the opposite and adding interchanges at 23rd and 20th streets, creating a freeway all the way to the Reagan Airport Connector, as was planned in the 70s.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 14, 2020, 10:40:00 PM
You mean Reagan Airport. Dulles Airport is about 20 to 25 miles to the west. Route 233 is a short stub route connecting Route 1 to Reagan Airport.

There is about zero chance of more interchanges being added through there. There was a survey last month or the month before about multi-modal improvements in that area. Arlington authorities view Route 1—with some justification, I have to say—as a sort of like a wall splitting Crystal City in two.

Bear in mind that Amazon is to become a major tenant in that area, plus Arlington County is not particularly interested in highway-style construction anyway because they’re more into the so-called "smart growth" concept than they are in making it easier for people to pass through. They would love it if they could find a way to create housing for Amazon workers who would then walk or bike to work.

This is similar to your other recent thread in which you didn’t believe those of us who live around here when we said Arlington County would have zero political interest in turning US-50 through the county into a full controlled-access freeway. Arlington is more interested in (a) the new Metrorail stop under construction at Potomac Yard, (b) the plan to twin the Long Bridge, and (c) the proposal to build a new dedicated bike and pedestrian bridge between the Long Bridge and the Fenwick Bridge.

I think right now the two most notable road projects on the horizon in Arlington County are the realignment of Columbia Pike near the Air Force Memorial to allow for the expansion of Arlington Cemetery and the reconstruction of the I-395/Boundary Channel Drive interchange.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 14, 2020, 10:45:16 PM
You mean Reagan Airport. Dulles Airport is about 20 to 25 miles to the west. Route 233 is a short stub route connecting Route 1 to Reagan Airport.

There is about zero chance of more interchanges being added through there. There was a survey last month or the month before about multi-modal improvements in that area. Arlington authorities view Route 1—with some justification, I have to say—as a sort of like a wall splitting Crystal City in two.


Bear in mind that Amazon is to become a major tenant in that area, plus Arlington County is not particularly interested in highway-style construction anyway because they’re more into the so-called "smart growth" concept than they are in making it easier for people to pass through. They would love it if they could find a way to create housing for Amazon workers who would then walk or bike to work.

This is similar to your other recent thread in which you didn’t believe those of us who live around here when we said Arlington County would have zero political interest in turning US-50 through the county into a full controlled-access freeway. Arlington is more interested in (a) the new Metrorail stop under construction at Potomac Yard, (b) the plan to twin the Long Bridge, and (c) the proposal to build a new dedicated bike and pedestrian bridge between the Long Bridge and the Fenwick Bridge.

I think right now the two most notable road projects on the horizon in Arlington County are the realignment of Columbia Pike near the Air Force Memorial to allow for the expansion of Arlington Cemetery and the reconstruction of the I-395/Boundary Channel Drive interchange.

And having it at-grade would make it worse.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 15, 2020, 07:33:47 AM
I didn’t say anything about removing interchanges to make it fully at-grade. I was only responding to your reference to adding interchanges, as set forth in your final paragraph.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 15, 2020, 10:59:10 AM
I know the area very well, and I'll offer that the survey population needs scrutiny.

Those living in the single-family homes in the western part of the survey area are much more likely to drive than to walk along the Route 1 corridor. Those living along Route 1 are more likely to walk (although a significant portion of them still own cars), particularly those east of Route 1. That will certainly impact the experiences for each of the parties involved.

There's zero chance Arlington will build new interchanges, and they're still looking to tear down the existing ones. One of the remedies to the amount of lanes needing to cross is to simply reduce the amount of lanes.

After all, it's not like US-1 is a continuous 6-lane highway all the way down through Alexandria. South of Reed Avenue, at Potomac Yard, US-1 is down to 2 lanes in each direction (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8312462,-77.0512819,156m/data=!3m1!1e3), in a very developed area.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 11:31:31 AM
I know the area very well, and I'll offer that the survey population needs scrutiny.

Those living in the single-family homes in the western part of the survey area are much more likely to drive than to walk along the Route 1 corridor. Those living along Route 1 are more likely to walk (although a significant portion of them still own cars), particularly those east of Route 1. That will certainly impact the experiences for each of the parties involved.

There's zero chance Arlington will build new interchanges, and they're still looking to tear down the existing ones. One of the remedies to the amount of lanes needing to cross is to simply reduce the amount of lanes.

After all, it's not like US-1 is a continuous 6-lane highway all the way down through Alexandria. South of Reed Avenue, at Potomac Yard, US-1 is down to 2 lanes in each direction (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8312462,-77.0512819,156m/data=!3m1!1e3), in a very developed area.
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: Jmiles32 on December 15, 2020, 01:07:59 PM
A few thoughts here:

1. While those survey results are very interesting and likely not what VDOT or Arlington expected, I think that a dirty little secret in planning is that surveys really don't mean much. Instead, it would probably have to take a bunch of intense opposition at a public meeting or two for VDOT and Arlington to really change their minds.

2. I'm not sure how from a safety perspective it can be justified that crossing six-ish lanes of traffic is safer for pedestrians than crossing via an underpass or overpass.

3. Finally and most importantly I think that is imperative that the $270ish million cost to do this according to the Reimagine Route 1 Executive Summary be funded by means other than smart scale and the already extremely limited state transportation fund. From a traffic standpoint, I think that there are a ton of more worthy projects across NOVA and the rest of the state that I would rather see funded than this. Now of course if Arlington and Amazon want to fund these improvements themselves then I'm all for it.
https://ctycms.com/va-national-landing/docs/reimagine-route-1-executive-summary---20201002.pdf
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 15, 2020, 01:14:44 PM
A few thoughts here:

1. While those survey results are very interesting and likely not what VDOT or Arlington expected, I think that a dirty little secret in planning is that surveys really don't mean much. Instead, it would probably have to take a bunch of intense opposition at a public meeting or two for VDOT and Arlington to really change their minds.

2. I'm not sure how from a safety perspective it can be justified that crossing six-ish lanes of traffic is safer for pedestrians than crossing via an underpass or overpass.

3. Finally and most importantly I think that is imperative that the $270ish million cost to do this according to the Reimagine Route 1 Executive Summary be funded by means other than smart scale and the already extremely limited state transportation fund. From a traffic standpoint, I think that there are a ton of more worthy projects across NOVA and the rest of the state that I would rather see funded than this. Now of course if Arlington and Amazon want to fund these improvements themselves then I'm all for it.
https://ctycms.com/va-national-landing/docs/reimagine-route-1-executive-summary---20201002.pdf

There are often slip lanes or dangerous right-on-red situations where people are going onto, or coming off of, the ramps. Plus the underpasses can be a bit sketchy with homeless people.

I remember there was an underpass/tunnel below route 1 near 23rd Street which is now shut down. I once was going to use it, but a homeless woman was sitting on the staircase down to the tunnel, and I opted to cross Rte 1 at street level instead.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 01:24:18 PM
A few thoughts here:

1. While those survey results are very interesting and likely not what VDOT or Arlington expected, I think that a dirty little secret in planning is that surveys really don't mean much. Instead, it would probably have to take a bunch of intense opposition at a public meeting or two for VDOT and Arlington to really change their minds.

2. I'm not sure how from a safety perspective it can be justified that crossing six-ish lanes of traffic is safer for pedestrians than crossing via an underpass or overpass.

3. Finally and most importantly I think that is imperative that the $270ish million cost to do this according to the Reimagine Route 1 Executive Summary be funded by means other than smart scale and the already extremely limited state transportation fund. From a traffic standpoint, I think that there are a ton of more worthy projects across NOVA and the rest of the state that I would rather see funded than this. Now of course if Arlington and Amazon want to fund these improvements themselves then I'm all for it.
https://ctycms.com/va-national-landing/docs/reimagine-route-1-executive-summary---20201002.pdf

There are often slip lanes or dangerous right-on-red situations where people are going onto, or coming off of, the ramps. Plus the underpasses can be a bit sketchy with homeless people.

I remember there was an underpass/tunnel below route 1 near 23rd Street which is now shut down. I once was going to use it, but a homeless woman was sitting on the staircase down to the tunnel, and I opted to cross Rte 1 at street level instead.

They offered suggestions for fixing those problems like using the space under the highway for commercial development
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1 on December 15, 2020, 01:25:34 PM
There are often slip lanes or dangerous right-on-red situations where people are going onto, or coming off of, the ramps. Plus the underpasses can be a bit sketchy with homeless people.

I remember there was an underpass/tunnel below route 1 near 23rd Street which is now shut down. I once was going to use it, but a homeless woman was sitting on the staircase down to the tunnel, and I opted to cross Rte 1 at street level instead.

1. Single slip lanes shouldn't be an issue. You're crossing a single lane of traffic, and you only have to look from one direction. Sometimes you'll need to wait for a car to pass first, but it's easier than crossing both directions of traffic at the same time.

2. Homeless people don't go away when you remove locations where they can stay. They have to be accommodated somehow.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 01:27:54 PM
A few thoughts here:

1. While those survey results are very interesting and likely not what VDOT or Arlington expected, I think that a dirty little secret in planning is that surveys really don't mean much. Instead, it would probably have to take a bunch of intense opposition at a public meeting or two for VDOT and Arlington to really change their minds.

2. I'm not sure how from a safety perspective it can be justified that crossing six-ish lanes of traffic is safer for pedestrians than crossing via an underpass or overpass.

3. Finally and most importantly I think that is imperative that the $270ish million cost to do this according to the Reimagine Route 1 Executive Summary be funded by means other than smart scale and the already extremely limited state transportation fund. From a traffic standpoint, I think that there are a ton of more worthy projects across NOVA and the rest of the state that I would rather see funded than this. Now of course if Arlington and Amazon want to fund these improvements themselves then I'm all for it.
https://ctycms.com/va-national-landing/docs/reimagine-route-1-executive-summary---20201002.pdf

$270 million to make traffic worse? What are they thinking?
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 15, 2020, 01:55:43 PM
I don't think some of you guys appreciate how this is pretty much in the heart of Amazon City (i.e. HQ-2). This is pretty much going to be a third commercial power center in Northern VA (after Tysons Corner and Rosslyn).

The projects will pay for themselves in the long run. Tysons Corner is a permanent mess because of its expansive highway-like road grid. Rosslyn is continuing to break up its mega-blocks; Crystal City is doing the same.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 02:02:23 PM
I don't think some of you guys appreciate how this is pretty much in the heart of Amazon City (i.e. HQ-2). This is pretty much going to be a third commercial power center in Northern VA (after Tysons Corner and Rosslyn).

The projects will pay for themselves in the long run. Tysons Corner is a permanent mess because of its expansive highway-like road grid. Rosslyn is continuing to break up its mega-blocks; Crystal City is doing the same.
They're spending hundreds of millions of dollars to build new streets that will make traffic worse due to the increased number of intersections. Maybe they should try turning 7, 123, and international drive into Superstreets.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: seicer on December 15, 2020, 03:56:25 PM
With the increased density, the focus on walkable environments, and the proximity of transit stations, 45 MPH highways ("superstreets") would not be feasible. Tysons Corner and Rosslyn are rapidly redeveloping from automobile-centered suburbs into true mixed-use transit-oriented centers. Still accessible by car with plenty of parking garages but also walkable and accessible from Metro and bus routes.

Amazon isn't choosing to locate its newest developments in suburbs. It's Seattle and Northern VA developments are deliberately near transit-oriented developments. The same could have been said for Amazon in New York City had that been built.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 15, 2020, 04:04:43 PM
Thank you. You get the big picture. The 1960s model of close-in suburban development is dead - I'm not even passing judgement on its merits. But the fact is that institutional landlords around here have to stay ahead of demand, and work with the local government to help deliver.

The fact is none of the major commercial tenants seem to want to immediate freeway access and huge surface parking infrastructure. You can debate it all you want, but there's a reason that the low-rise office parks off the Dulles Toll Road have been floundering, while hubs such as Rosslyn and Crystal City are booming.

Finally, I find it silly to mope about "traffic" on Rte 1. There's stoplights all the way down to Groveton (and beyond). If you want to move quickly north-south in those parts, take I-395 or the GW Parkway. Rte 1 is in effect a local road.

Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 15, 2020, 04:09:56 PM
Bear in mind what the tagline below kernals12's avatar says. This is not someone who is necessarily attempting to consider reality.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 04:12:13 PM
With the increased density, the focus on walkable environments, and the proximity of transit stations, 45 MPH highways ("superstreets") would not be feasible. Tysons Corner and Rosslyn are rapidly redeveloping from automobile-centered suburbs into true mixed-use transit-oriented centers. Still accessible by car with plenty of parking garages but also walkable and accessible from Metro and bus routes.

Amazon isn't choosing to locate its newest developments in suburbs. It's Seattle and Northern VA developments are deliberately near transit-oriented developments. The same could have been said for Amazon in New York City had that been built.
It's weird that developing a city that's not car-centric means making more space for moving cars.

(https://i.imgur.com/sE1JPRm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 04:13:19 PM
Thank you. You get the big picture. The 1960s model of close-in suburban development is dead - I'm not even passing judgement on its merits. But the fact is that institutional landlords around here have to stay ahead of demand, and work with the local government to help deliver.

The fact is none of the major commercial tenants seem to want to immediate freeway access and huge surface parking infrastructure. You can debate it all you want, but there's a reason that the low-rise office parks off the Dulles Toll Road have been floundering, while hubs such as Rosslyn and Crystal City are booming.

Finally, I find it silly to mope about "traffic" on Rte 1. There's stoplights all the way down to Groveton (and beyond). If you want to move quickly north-south in those parts, take I-395 or the GW Parkway. Rte 1 is in effect a local road.
Tax increment financing.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: seicer on December 15, 2020, 04:27:04 PM
You don't think developers and corporations in Manassas, Woodbridge, and Laurel request tax breaks too? It's a no-win situation.

Going back to the original purpose of this thread, renderings, and comparisons of the project can be found at https://www.arlnow.com/2020/10/06/new-report-shows-route-1-in-crystal-city-as-a-tree-lined-urban-boulevard/. It's not unreasonable to consider this proposal. It will be no wider than any other six-lane road in say... Chicago or New York City where pedestrians safely cross traffic without issue.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 15, 2020, 04:33:19 PM
Exactly. A few well-designed pedestrian islands, with ample crossing time, and what's the problem? If you need to get from southern Alexandria to northern Arlington in a hurry, take 395 or the GW Parkway. Not every road needs to be a freeway.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 04:47:44 PM
Exactly. A few well-designed pedestrian islands, with ample crossing time, and what's the problem? If you need to get from southern Alexandria to northern Arlington in a hurry, take 395 or the GW Parkway. Not every road needs to be a freeway.
Why have hamburger when you can have steak?
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on December 15, 2020, 04:49:46 PM
I'm fine with how it is... it helps for a quick connection to the airport and Alexandria, and it segues nicely coming in from the Mixing Bowl. The pedestrian situation is better under an elevated highway as well.
I will admit though, the Clark Street ramp was a bit useless, I didn't mind that getting torn down particularly.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 04:55:17 PM
I'm fine with how it is... it helps for a quick connection to the airport and Alexandria, and it segues nicely coming in from the Mixing Bowl. The pedestrian situation is better under an elevated highway as well.
I will admit though, the Clark Street ramp was a bit useless, I didn't mind that getting torn down particularly.

It seems like they could've turned the ramp into a pedestrian overpass.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 05:03:53 PM

There are often slip lanes or dangerous right-on-red situations where people are going onto, or coming off of, the ramps. Plus the underpasses can be a bit sketchy with homeless people.

I remember there was an underpass/tunnel below route 1 near 23rd Street which is now shut down. I once was going to use it, but a homeless woman was sitting on the staircase down to the tunnel, and I opted to cross Rte 1 at street level instead.

2. Homeless people don't go away when you remove locations where they can stay. They have to be accommodated somehow.

It isn't homeless people who worry me in pedestrian underpasses, it's "hoodlums" with nothing better to do than hang around in the shadows and mess with people.  (I speak as someone who has—in the past—invited a homeless person to sleep the night in my rented room, shared many a secluded or otherwise vacant train platform with homeless people, been protected in a rough neighborhood by a man from his own nearby non-homeless nephew "hoodlums" in exchange for breakfast, and once came within an inch of being mugged in broad daylight by a non-homeless "hoodlum".)  I'll take homeless people over shadow-lurkers any day.

I'm more interested in the fact that underpasses and overpasses generally either have staircases or fairly steep ramps.  This is obviously not ideal for people in wheelchairs.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 15, 2020, 05:06:37 PM
Exactly. A few well-designed pedestrian islands, with ample crossing time, and what's the problem? If you need to get from southern Alexandria to northern Arlington in a hurry, take 395 or the GW Parkway. Not every road needs to be a freeway.

One thing I wish they'd consider is on roads like that is the sort of pedestrian island the Brits sometimes use when it's difficult or impossible to get all the way across the street on one light cycle. The one that comes to mind for me is on Parliament Street outside the Tube stop (https://goo.gl/maps/AyTQNZHGA4zo8JBs7). Notice in that Street View how you cross to the central island, then fences prevent you from jaywalking the rest of the way or trying to sprint across if you see a gap in traffic—instead, you walk down to the other offset crossing down at the corner where the walkway to Westminster Bridge is.

I don't see as many pedestrians doing dumb things on Route 1 in Crystal City as I do elsewhere, probably due to how wide the road is, but better-designed pedestrian islands are a good idea.

The worst intersection along there, IMO, as either a driver or a pedestrian, is the one at 23d Street. (Viewing that on Street View also helps give an idea of how exposed to traffic a pedestrian feels on the median islands.)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1 on December 15, 2020, 05:19:42 PM
I don't know if this would help or not, but what about banning left turns between VA 120 (inclusive) and the 15th St. interchange (exclusive)? They would become two-phase signals. If you were going northbound and wanted to go west, you would either turn before the restricted area at Glebe Rd. or you would turn right onto Crystal Dr. and go straight across at one of the other intersections (or turn left at 15th if it's close to your destination). If you were going southbound and wanted to go east, take the 15th St. interchange and go along Crystal Dr.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: oscar on December 15, 2020, 06:06:36 PM
I don't know if this would help or not, but what about banning left turns between VA 120 (inclusive) and the 15th St. interchange (exclusive)?

Does "VA 120 (inclusive)" mean that left turns would be banned at the VA 120 intersection, or rather starting north of that intersection? The VA 120 intersection has a dual left-turn lane from US 1 NB to VA 120 WB, reflecting the traffic volume making that movement, that would be hard to accommodate some other way. But leaving the VA 120 intersection out of your plan might not prevent the rest of the plan from working.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1 on December 15, 2020, 06:14:41 PM
I don't know if this would help or not, but what about banning left turns between VA 120 (inclusive) and the 15th St. interchange (exclusive)?

Does "VA 120 (inclusive)" mean that left turns would be banned at the VA 120 intersection, or rather starting north of that intersection? The VA 120 intersection has a dual left-turn lane from US 1 NB to VA 120 WB, reflecting the traffic volume making that movement, that would be hard to accommodate some other way. But leaving the VA 120 intersection out of your plan might not prevent the rest of the plan from working.

I meant that left turns would be banned there, seeing W/E Glebe Rd. south of the river as an alternate. I didn't realize it was a double left turn lane. Left turns should probably be allowed here and banned only north of here. (Allowing left turns here would also make the SB → EB movement easier.)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 08:54:46 PM
You mean Reagan Airport. Dulles Airport is about 20 to 25 miles to the west. Route 233 is a short stub route connecting Route 1 to Reagan Airport.

There is about zero chance of more interchanges being added through there. There was a survey last month or the month before about multi-modal improvements in that area. Arlington authorities view Route 1—with some justification, I have to say—as a sort of like a wall splitting Crystal City in two.

Bear in mind that Amazon is to become a major tenant in that area, plus Arlington County is not particularly interested in highway-style construction anyway because they’re more into the so-called "smart growth" concept than they are in making it easier for people to pass through. They would love it if they could find a way to create housing for Amazon workers who would then walk or bike to work.

This is similar to your other recent thread in which you didn’t believe those of us who live around here when we said Arlington County would have zero political interest in turning US-50 through the county into a full controlled-access freeway. Arlington is more interested in (a) the new Metrorail stop under construction at Potomac Yard, (b) the plan to twin the Long Bridge, and (c) the proposal to build a new dedicated bike and pedestrian bridge between the Long Bridge and the Fenwick Bridge.

I think right now the two most notable road projects on the horizon in Arlington County are the realignment of Columbia Pike near the Air Force Memorial to allow for the expansion of Arlington Cemetery and the reconstruction of the I-395/Boundary Channel Drive interchange.

Philadelphia wants to turn a similar road, Roosevelt Boulevard, into a freeway.
Title: Re: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: odditude on December 15, 2020, 09:05:28 PM

Philadelphia wants to turn a similar road, Roosevelt Boulevard, into a freeway.

apples and oranges... Roosevelt Blvd is a completely different beast.
Title: Re: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 09:13:29 PM

Philadelphia wants to turn a similar road, Roosevelt Boulevard, into a freeway.

apples and oranges... Roosevelt Blvd is a completely different beast.

How? They're both very wide arterials with frontage roads.
Title: Re: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 15, 2020, 09:28:25 PM
Who cares what Philadelphia is doing? How does that have any relevance at all to Arlington, Virginia, and how does it even remotely matter in terms of local politics?

You really don’t like people throwing cold water on your ideas, do you?
Title: Re: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 15, 2020, 09:32:52 PM
Who cares what Philadelphia is doing? How does that have any relevance at all to Arlington, Virginia, and how does it even remotely matter in terms of local politics?

You really don’t like people throwing cold water on your ideas, do you?

Philadelphia wants to build a freeway there to improve safety, traffic flow, and make the area more pleasant. I think the people of Arlington value the same things.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 15, 2020, 10:28:05 PM
Who cares what Philadelphia is doing? How does that have any relevance at all to Arlington, Virginia, and how does it even remotely matter in terms of local politics?

You really don’t like people throwing cold water on your ideas, do you?

Philadelphia wants to build a freeway there to improve safety, traffic flow, and make the area more pleasant. I think the people of Arlington value the same things.

You’re making an invalid assumption that the people in Arlington think a freeway would in fact "make the area more pleasant."

I’m just really puzzled as to why, for someone who has a profile listing Boston as home, you seem so obsessed with trying to make us believe you know more about what Northern Virginia residents want than anyone else, such as people who live in Northern Virginia—other than your tag line about a dislike for public transit, that is.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 16, 2020, 10:32:42 AM
Who are you gonna trust - the kid from Boston suburbs, or three posters from the area?  :rolleyes:

Hoo- Arlington also has plans to break up some of the megablocks in Rosslyn, but that's contingent on parcel-by-parcel development. PS - did you see the Holiday Inn implosion? I visited the remnants yesterday...The hole in the ground really lays bare how much of an incline that part of Rosslyn is built on.

There's also a long-planned road diet for Army-Navy Drive near the Pentagon City mall.




Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 16, 2020, 10:40:46 AM
Who are you gonna trust - the kid from Boston suburbs, or three posters from the area?  :rolleyes:

Hoo- Arlington also has plans to break up some of the megablocks in Rosslyn, but that's contingent on parcel-by-parcel development. PS - did you see the Holiday Inn implosion? I visited the remnants yesterday...The hole in the ground really lays bare how much of an incline that part of Rosslyn is built on.

There's also a long-planned road diet for Army-Navy Drive near the Pentagon City mall.

I saw the video of the implosion on Adam Tuss's twitter feed. We went to Arlington Cemetery that morning to place a wreath at my father's niche and, for obvious reasons, that was far more important to me than the hotel project.

I've never really liked Rosslyn or the part of Crystal City east of Route 1. They just don't appeal to me at all. I'm not sure breaking up the megablocks would change my opinion, either, but it's fair to recognize that I grew up outside the Beltway in Fairfax County and that surely influences my view. I was aware of the incline on which Rosslyn is built, though, because back in the 1980s when I was a Boy Scout pursuing the Cycling merit badge we regularly passed through Rosslyn as part of trips along the Custis Trail.

There was a road diet implemented on a portion of Kingstowne Village Parkway (between Beulah Street and Hayfield Road) not too far from where I live. On that road, it's been perfectly fine, but the people who live at that end don't like it because they say it makes it too hard "to pass slowpokes." Since it's a residential area with multiple uncontrolled crosswalks and the speed limit is 35, I tend to keep it to 35 on there. I have been passed over the double yellow line more than once, and one angry guy in a pickup who wanted me to go faster followed me to Wegmans and continued to follow me around the parking lot until I lost him by going around the back of the store and flooring it (I was not about to park until I lost him).
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 16, 2020, 10:45:17 AM
I split the posts about Roosevelt Blvd out intending those to be moved to that thread. It is locked so that no one posts in it. -Mark
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1 on December 16, 2020, 10:46:59 AM
Who are you gonna trust - the kid from Boston suburbs, or three posters from the area?  :rolleyes:

I'm also a kid (or at least a college student) from the Boston suburbs, and oscar, who lives in the area, said my idea might work with a small modification.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 16, 2020, 11:52:45 AM
I have very little patience for the people who feel entitled to speed on residential roads, no matter how wide. I was taught the "kid chasing a ball" test while learning to drive; if you can't stop in time for that contingency (based on sight lines, and spacing and everything else), it's too fast.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 16, 2020, 12:15:59 PM
I have very little patience for the people who feel entitled to speed on residential roads, no matter how wide. I was taught the "kid chasing a ball" test while learning to drive; if you can't stop in time for that contingency (based on sight lines, and spacing and everything else), it's too fast.

Agreed, and I will often set my cruise control at approximately the speed limit (a tick over, if the limit is 25, since my cruise control seems to work only above that speed), both to keep my own speed down and to prevent myself from unconsciously speeding up if someone tailgates me. It's not just kids, either. There are a good number of deer in the woods in our neighborhood—I've seen as many as six at one time along the side of the road—and I don't particularly care for the idea of hitting one of them (or a squirrel, for that matter).
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: seicer on December 16, 2020, 01:18:45 PM
In the discussion about pedestrian overpasses and tunnels, they are never all that popular and seemingly reinforce an idea that the roadway below needs to be divorced of any non-car interaction. If the goal is to reinforce the idea that US 1 does not need to be a freeway through Crystal City, a pedestrian overpass/underpass is not needed. As it is, the freeway is short, has a 35 MPH speed limit, and doesn't serve much of a larger purpose if it isn't extended to the south - which is highly unlikely considering the dense transit-oriented development being built.
 
https://www.itdp.org/2019/10/01/pedestrian-bridges-make-cities-less-walkable-why-do-cities-keep-building-them/
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/03/30/instead-of-a-pedestrian-bridge-how-about-a-street-that-works-for-walking-biking-and-transit/
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 16, 2020, 01:32:02 PM
^^^^

The pedestrian bridge outside Home Depot at Seven Corners didn’t get used until VDOT put up chain link fences to prevent people from trying to attempt the suicidal run across Route 50.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 16, 2020, 01:40:53 PM
In the discussion about pedestrian overpasses and tunnels, they are never all that popular and seemingly reinforce an idea that the roadway below needs to be divorced of any non-car interaction. If the goal is to reinforce the idea that US 1 does not need to be a freeway through Crystal City, a pedestrian overpass/underpass is not needed. As it is, the freeway is short, has a 35 MPH speed limit, and doesn't serve much of a larger purpose if it isn't extended to the south - which is highly unlikely considering the dense transit-oriented development being built.
 
https://www.itdp.org/2019/10/01/pedestrian-bridges-make-cities-less-walkable-why-do-cities-keep-building-them/
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/03/30/instead-of-a-pedestrian-bridge-how-about-a-street-that-works-for-walking-biking-and-transit/

This is a zero sum mentality. It's possible to make roads better for all users, motorized or not, simultaneously. As it happens, the current overpasses do that.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1 on December 16, 2020, 02:04:12 PM
Not everyone can walk up stairs easily, making it a shallow ramp adds a lot of distance, and if it's an elevator (I know of no examples), you're going to have to wait until the previous person is done before you can go.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 02:13:45 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that underpasses and overpasses generally either have staircases or fairly steep ramps.  This is obviously not ideal for people in wheelchairs.

Not everyone can walk up stairs easily, making it a shallow ramp adds a lot of distance, and if it's an elevator (I know of no examples), you're going to have to wait until the previous person is done before you can go.

I've used spiral ramps like this (https://goo.gl/maps/aNLLpzL1RciY8U6K8) or this (https://goo.gl/maps/4tXpUaETawkEB7GH8) a few times by bicycle, and it's challenging enough.  I certainly wouldn't want to have to do that as a pedestrian with mobility problems.  And underpasses like this (https://goo.gl/maps/LR6SDr9sAPMeYMR66) or overpasses like this (https://goo.gl/maps/vtn1ZE41vvLUQA5UA) are worthless to anybody in a wheelchair.

(In the case of that last one, I've seen plenty of able-bodied students jaywalk across Broadway, rather than take the extra time and energy to use the overpass.)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 16, 2020, 02:34:51 PM
In the discussion about pedestrian overpasses and tunnels, they are never all that popular and seemingly reinforce an idea that the roadway below needs to be divorced of any non-car interaction. If the goal is to reinforce the idea that US 1 does not need to be a freeway through Crystal City, a pedestrian overpass/underpass is not needed. As it is, the freeway is short, has a 35 MPH speed limit, and doesn't serve much of a larger purpose if it isn't extended to the south - which is highly unlikely considering the dense transit-oriented development being built.
 
https://www.itdp.org/2019/10/01/pedestrian-bridges-make-cities-less-walkable-why-do-cities-keep-building-them/
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/03/30/instead-of-a-pedestrian-bridge-how-about-a-street-that-works-for-walking-biking-and-transit/

This is a zero sum mentality. It's possible to make roads better for all users, motorized or not, simultaneously. As it happens, the current overpasses do that.

I still don't understand why you automatically assume that municipalities want to make roads better for "all users."
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on December 16, 2020, 02:35:10 PM
Another resident here. I live in Crystal City part-time and my main metro station is the Crystal City station at 18th & Bell (which I access using the BRT from the southern end of Crystal City).

My thoughts:

* the freeway will never get extended south, so it serves no real purpose for traffic flow other than adding more room between the 395 and the first traffic light;
* the underpasses are dark and not enjoyable to use. I still have to cross four lanes of ramp traffic to access the underpass at 23rd anyways;
* the underpass at 18th is decent but still dark; both underpasses would be better if there was a cut-out in the middle of the overpass to allow natural light in (though I'd rather both were removed anyways);
* the overpass at 12th St likely needs to remain, but it's actually pretty decent and could be made quite good with road modifications and lighting improvements.
* exiting the BRT at Bell to get on the metro, it feels very uninviting since Route 1 creates a wall just west of the bus station. Not inviting at all, especially already being underneath the large building;
* bringing down Route 1 to grade level would require some tricky signalization, but I would invite anything that adds some noise and activity to Crystal City since the east side of Route 1 is...well it's pretty dead, honestly;
* DCA traffic seems to largely originate from the Parkway...I think we could safely eliminate the trumpet interchange at Route 1 and create a regular signal there (also eliminate the slip ramp to Crystal Dr).
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 16, 2020, 02:36:48 PM
In the discussion about pedestrian overpasses and tunnels, they are never all that popular and seemingly reinforce an idea that the roadway below needs to be divorced of any non-car interaction. If the goal is to reinforce the idea that US 1 does not need to be a freeway through Crystal City, a pedestrian overpass/underpass is not needed. As it is, the freeway is short, has a 35 MPH speed limit, and doesn't serve much of a larger purpose if it isn't extended to the south - which is highly unlikely considering the dense transit-oriented development being built.
 
https://www.itdp.org/2019/10/01/pedestrian-bridges-make-cities-less-walkable-why-do-cities-keep-building-them/
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/03/30/instead-of-a-pedestrian-bridge-how-about-a-street-that-works-for-walking-biking-and-transit/

This is a zero sum mentality. It's possible to make roads better for all users, motorized or not, simultaneously. As it happens, the current overpasses do that.

I still don't understand why you automatically assume that municipalities want to make roads better for "all users."

That's the whole idea behind "complete streets"
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on December 16, 2020, 02:38:16 PM
Another resident here. I live in Crystal City part-time and my main metro station is the Crystal City station at 18th & Bell (which I access using the BRT from the southern end of Crystal City).

My thoughts:

* the freeway will never get extended south, so it serves no real purpose for traffic flow other than adding more room between the 395 and the first traffic light;
* the underpasses are dark and not enjoyable to use. I still have to cross four lanes of ramp traffic to access the underpass at 23rd anyways;
* the underpass at 18th is decent but still dark; both underpasses would be better if there was a cut-out in the middle of the overpass to allow natural light in (though I'd rather both were removed anyways);
* the overpass at 12th St likely needs to remain, but it's actually pretty decent and could be made quite good with road modifications and lighting improvements.
* exiting the BRT at Bell to get on the metro, it feels very uninviting since Route 1 creates a wall just west of the bus station. Not inviting at all, especially already being underneath the large building;
* bringing down Route 1 to grade level would require some tricky signalization, but I would invite anything that adds some noise and activity to Crystal City since the east side of Route 1 is...well it's pretty dead, honestly;
* DCA traffic seems to largely originate from the Parkway...I think we could safely eliminate the trumpet interchange at Route 1 and create a regular signal there (also eliminate the slip ramp to Crystal Dr).

The group Livability 22202 suggested livening things up by building commercial space into the overpass (https://livability22202.org/route-1-working-group/)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kphoger on December 16, 2020, 02:41:47 PM

I still don't understand why you automatically assume that municipalities want to make roads better for "all users."

That's the whole idea behind "complete streets"

I'm pretty sure he knows that.  What he's questioning is your assumption that municipalities actually want that.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1 on December 16, 2020, 02:44:10 PM
In the discussion about pedestrian overpasses and tunnels, they are never all that popular and seemingly reinforce an idea that the roadway below needs to be divorced of any non-car interaction. If the goal is to reinforce the idea that US 1 does not need to be a freeway through Crystal City, a pedestrian overpass/underpass is not needed. As it is, the freeway is short, has a 35 MPH speed limit, and doesn't serve much of a larger purpose if it isn't extended to the south - which is highly unlikely considering the dense transit-oriented development being built.
 
https://www.itdp.org/2019/10/01/pedestrian-bridges-make-cities-less-walkable-why-do-cities-keep-building-them/
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/03/30/instead-of-a-pedestrian-bridge-how-about-a-street-that-works-for-walking-biking-and-transit/

This is a zero sum mentality. It's possible to make roads better for all users, motorized or not, simultaneously. As it happens, the current overpasses do that.

I still don't understand why you automatically assume that municipalities want to make roads better for "all users."

That's the whole idea behind "complete streets"

Complete streets make roads worse for cars and intended to be better for pedestrians and bicycles. However, crossing more lanes, especially if it's two-way traffic, is often worse as a pedestrian.

My left turn ban proposal would help vehicle traffic (it doesn't everywhere, but oscar said it at least theoretically works here), and doesn't affect pedestrians much but is a slight help. The most important thing to keep in mind for pedestrian crossings is that they should only have to cross one direction at a time; this does seem to be the case for Route 1, as there's a wide median, but compare 15th St. to 20th St. Route 1 is easier to cross at 15th because it's an interchange, and even easier at 12th and 18th because there are no conflict points at all.

If the part east of Route 1 is "dead", my proposed left turn ban will help with that, too.

Finally, this area is not located within a municipality. The only municipalities in Virginia are independent cities; contrary to popular belief, Arlington is not one of them.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on December 16, 2020, 02:56:47 PM
Another resident here. I live in Crystal City part-time and my main metro station is the Crystal City station at 18th & Bell (which I access using the BRT from the southern end of Crystal City).

My thoughts:

* the freeway will never get extended south, so it serves no real purpose for traffic flow other than adding more room between the 395 and the first traffic light;
* the underpasses are dark and not enjoyable to use. I still have to cross four lanes of ramp traffic to access the underpass at 23rd anyways;
* the underpass at 18th is decent but still dark; both underpasses would be better if there was a cut-out in the middle of the overpass to allow natural light in (though I'd rather both were removed anyways);
* the overpass at 12th St likely needs to remain, but it's actually pretty decent and could be made quite good with road modifications and lighting improvements.
* exiting the BRT at Bell to get on the metro, it feels very uninviting since Route 1 creates a wall just west of the bus station. Not inviting at all, especially already being underneath the large building;
* bringing down Route 1 to grade level would require some tricky signalization, but I would invite anything that adds some noise and activity to Crystal City since the east side of Route 1 is...well it's pretty dead, honestly;
* DCA traffic seems to largely originate from the Parkway...I think we could safely eliminate the trumpet interchange at Route 1 and create a regular signal there (also eliminate the slip ramp to Crystal Dr).

The group Livability 22202 suggested livening things up by building commercial space into the overpass (https://livability22202.org/route-1-working-group/)

The amount of structural work required to make that work would likely only be undertaken if the overpasses were deemed necessary for various other reasons. Given that traffic flow is not an important factor, and all else being equal, dark underpasses are generally frowned upon from an urban design perspective, it's far more likely that the overpasses would be removed rather than improved.

Their inspiration from the Netherlands is sketchy. The overpass in Koog aan de Zaan, NL is narrower, and only exists because of the River Zaan to the east. Plus, that road is part of the larger A8 Motorway, and could not have been removed. It was either liven up the area beneath, or not. Arlington can remove the overpasses, harming traffic flow a bit, but improving many other things in the process. There's a net gain.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on December 16, 2020, 03:03:02 PM
....

Finally, this area is not located within a municipality. The only municipalities in Virginia are independent cities; contrary to popular belief, Arlington is not one of them.

I'm well-aware of that—probably considerably more so than you are (have you passed the Virginia bar exam that includes a section on local government law?)—but it was the convenient term to use in the context of this thread.





I still don't understand why you automatically assume that municipalities want to make roads better for "all users."

That's the whole idea behind "complete streets"

I'm pretty sure he knows that.  What he's questioning is your assumption that municipalities actually want that.

Thank you. That's exactly the point. Of course, I think kernals12 knows that and is just deliberately being obtuse.




....

* DCA traffic seems to largely originate from the Parkway...I think we could safely eliminate the trumpet interchange at Route 1 and create a regular signal there (also eliminate the slip ramp to Crystal Dr).

I'm not sure that would be a great option. That light would be pretty close to the two existing lights at 23d and 27th Streets, and under normal (i.e., non-pandemic) circumstances the northbound traffic is very heavy through there in the mornings, such that another light might really gum up the works. (I haven't been that way as often during the afternoons because when I worked downtown, I seldom left work early enough to be in the peak part of rush hour, and so I can't comment as readily about that time of day.) The elevated road has to be there due to the railroad tracks to the east (unless you eliminate that road altogether), so I wonder whether lowering it to create a traffic light would be more trouble and expense than it's worth.

I haven't heard anything more about the new pedestrian/bike bridge they were to build between the area near the VRE stop and the airport as part of the Amazon package.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: Alps on December 16, 2020, 03:13:13 PM
I split the posts about Roosevelt Blvd out intending those to be moved to that thread. It is locked so that no one posts in it. -Mark
I moved a few of those to the roosevelt thread in Northeast: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28141.0
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: seicer on December 16, 2020, 03:28:05 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that underpasses and overpasses generally either have staircases or fairly steep ramps.  This is obviously not ideal for people in wheelchairs.

Not everyone can walk up stairs easily, making it a shallow ramp adds a lot of distance, and if it's an elevator (I know of no examples), you're going to have to wait until the previous person is done before you can go.

I've used spiral ramps like this (https://goo.gl/maps/aNLLpzL1RciY8U6K8) or this (https://goo.gl/maps/4tXpUaETawkEB7GH8) a few times by bicycle, and it's challenging enough.  I certainly wouldn't want to have to do that as a pedestrian with mobility problems.  And underpasses like this (https://goo.gl/maps/LR6SDr9sAPMeYMR66) or overpasses like this (https://goo.gl/maps/vtn1ZE41vvLUQA5UA) are worthless to anybody in a wheelchair.

(In the case of that last one, I've seen plenty of able-bodied students jaywalk across Broadway, rather than take the extra time and energy to use the overpass.)

One was built in Morehead, Kentucky to link an elementary school and a parking lot across the street which features stairs and elevators, but it was rarely used because it didn't work off of the natural flow of pedestrians from the school nor did it eliminate pedestrians from simply using the crosswalks that existed. Additionally, the side road and intersection no longer exist, and the parking lot for the school is now owned by a hospital, so the overpass is even more useless: https://goo.gl/maps/hZndGvqNxfSHkAZMA

At the cost of building the bridge, adding two staircases, and two elevators - and having to maintain it with inspections and repairs over the years, traffic calming could have been implemented in the vicinity of the school and hospital at a far cheaper cost if the goal was to reduce pedestrian/vehicle incidents.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on December 16, 2020, 03:54:04 PM
....

* DCA traffic seems to largely originate from the Parkway...I think we could safely eliminate the trumpet interchange at Route 1 and create a regular signal there (also eliminate the slip ramp to Crystal Dr).

I'm not sure that would be a great option. That light would be pretty close to the two existing lights at 23d and 27th Streets, and under normal (i.e., non-pandemic) circumstances the northbound traffic is very heavy through there in the mornings, such that another light might really gum up the works. (I haven't been that way as often during the afternoons because when I worked downtown, I seldom left work early enough to be in the peak part of rush hour, and so I can't comment as readily about that time of day.) The elevated road has to be there due to the railroad tracks to the east (unless you eliminate that road altogether), so I wonder whether lowering it to create a traffic light would be more trouble and expense than it's worth.

I haven't heard anything more about the new pedestrian/bike bridge they were to build between the area near the VRE stop and the airport as part of the Amazon package.

As long as those rail lines to the east are there, the overpasses over Clark St and Crystal Drive definitely must remain. I do recognize that. Much as I hate the viaduct feel in that part of Crystal City, I recognize that it's necessary.

You could definitely keep the overpasses but then modify the interchange with Route 1. My main issue is the sidewalk along the east side of Route 1 kind of falls apart in that area. I could see removing the two ramps on the east side of Route 1, and then putting in a left turn from northbound Route 1 to the access road to the north. Traffic that needs to go north (which would need to have used the northern removed ramp) could use the Crystal Drive ramp to 23rd. This would add no traffic signals (the left turn could be a yield), and would allow for a continuous sidewalk along Route 1.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 16, 2020, 06:04:29 PM
Some, although by no means all, of the parcels east of Rte. 1 will be improved as Amazon City-related renovations by the property owner get underway.

It's sort of sad about how all of the potential street life is pretty much bottled-up on one little stretch of Crystal Drive near the Chik-Fil-A. But that mostly deals with building form: inward-looking concrete bunkers, based on their own parking garages.

I often mused to myself about how the builder of Crystal City took all of the nice shops that would pull people in, and bury them underground in that weird-ass "mall". The 60s were a strange time indeed...
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 16, 2020, 06:29:50 PM
Not everyone can walk up stairs easily, making it a shallow ramp adds a lot of distance, and if it's an elevator (I know of no examples), you're going to have to wait until the previous person is done before you can go.

Here's one with an elevator, over NJ 38 at the Cherry Hill Mall.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2AMaNznNnqBeHpEo6

The opposite side has a ramp.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: D-Dey65 on January 25, 2021, 11:34:50 PM
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
I wish everybody who has been calling for the demolition of freeways understood that. They're thinking seems to be the opposite.



Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on January 27, 2021, 01:40:22 PM
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
I wish everybody who has been calling for the demolition of freeways understood that. They're thinking seems to be the opposite.

It's not that simple. Freeways often create dead-ends; overall average travel time is likely no different post-freeway as you have to detour to specific underpasses. Grade-level roads have far more frequent crossings.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on January 27, 2021, 01:47:17 PM
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
I wish everybody who has been calling for the demolition of freeways understood that. They're thinking seems to be the opposite.

It's not that simple. Freeways often create dead-ends; overall average travel time is likely no different post-freeway as you have to detour to specific underpasses. Grade-level roads have far more frequent crossings.

But they have no traffic lights.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on January 27, 2021, 01:51:43 PM
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
I wish everybody who has been calling for the demolition of freeways understood that. They're thinking seems to be the opposite.

It's not that simple. Freeways often create dead-ends; overall average travel time is likely no different post-freeway as you have to detour to specific underpasses. Grade-level roads have far more frequent crossings.

But they have no traffic lights.

But you still have the whole "great for those on the road with the crossing, awful for everyone else" situation.

It's not that traffic lights are great, but rather that there are more crossing opportunities.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 27, 2021, 01:56:06 PM
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
I wish everybody who has been calling for the demolition of freeways understood that. They're thinking seems to be the opposite.

It's not that simple. Freeways often create dead-ends; overall average travel time is likely no different post-freeway as you have to detour to specific underpasses. Grade-level roads have far more frequent crossings.

Delays are typically quoted as overall delays.  Sure, some people on a side road may have access cut off and will need to use other roadways that may add a short bit of time to their ride.  But on the main roads, the traffic free flows much better, so the average delay is reduced.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on January 27, 2021, 01:59:14 PM
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
I wish everybody who has been calling for the demolition of freeways understood that. They're thinking seems to be the opposite.

It's not that simple. Freeways often create dead-ends; overall average travel time is likely no different post-freeway as you have to detour to specific underpasses. Grade-level roads have far more frequent crossings.

Delays are typically quoted as overall delays.  Sure, some people on a side road may have access cut off and will need to use other roadways that may add a short bit of time to their ride.  But on the main roads, the traffic free flows much better, so the average delay is reduced.

I'm speaking more to those not driving. Having to use specific overpasses and underpasses introduces delay when you have to go out of your way to locate a crossing. Which is totally fine since you cannot have grade-level crossings of freeways, but it gets us back to the point about Crystal City. Might the urban design of Crystal City improve without the US-1 "freeway" and with new grade-level crossings at far more frequent intervals? I think so.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on January 27, 2021, 02:06:36 PM
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
I wish everybody who has been calling for the demolition of freeways understood that. They're thinking seems to be the opposite.

It's not that simple. Freeways often create dead-ends; overall average travel time is likely no different post-freeway as you have to detour to specific underpasses. Grade-level roads have far more frequent crossings.

Delays are typically quoted as overall delays.  Sure, some people on a side road may have access cut off and will need to use other roadways that may add a short bit of time to their ride.  But on the main roads, the traffic free flows much better, so the average delay is reduced.

I'm speaking more to those not driving. Having to use specific overpasses and underpasses introduces delay when you have to go out of your way to locate a crossing. Which is totally fine since you cannot have grade-level crossings of freeways, but it gets us back to the point about Crystal City. Might the urban design of Crystal City improve without the US-1 "freeway" and with new grade-level crossings at far more frequent intervals? I think so.

Just like in the thread about suburban sprawl, you are completely ignoring the stated opinions of the locals who clearly prefer to use the grade separated crossings.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on January 27, 2021, 02:14:05 PM
Ignoring the impact on congestion, it's still easier to walk under a 6 lane underpass than cross a 4 lane boulevard.
I wish everybody who has been calling for the demolition of freeways understood that. They're thinking seems to be the opposite.

It's not that simple. Freeways often create dead-ends; overall average travel time is likely no different post-freeway as you have to detour to specific underpasses. Grade-level roads have far more frequent crossings.

Delays are typically quoted as overall delays.  Sure, some people on a side road may have access cut off and will need to use other roadways that may add a short bit of time to their ride.  But on the main roads, the traffic free flows much better, so the average delay is reduced.

I'm speaking more to those not driving. Having to use specific overpasses and underpasses introduces delay when you have to go out of your way to locate a crossing. Which is totally fine since you cannot have grade-level crossings of freeways, but it gets us back to the point about Crystal City. Might the urban design of Crystal City improve without the US-1 "freeway" and with new grade-level crossings at far more frequent intervals? I think so.

Just like in the thread about suburban sprawl, you are completely ignoring the stated opinions of the locals who clearly prefer to use the grade separated crossings.

"The locals" are now a group of 289 people, in a neighborhood of 23k? Surveys should always be taken with a grain of salt.

Also: I'm a local. I live in Crystal City part of the year.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: Alps on January 27, 2021, 07:36:09 PM
I have no issues crossing at the nearest cross street...
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: D-Dey65 on January 27, 2021, 11:14:44 PM
But you still have the whole "great for those on the road with the crossing, awful for everyone else" situation.
Is it really so awful? Instead of crossing big wide lanes of traffic directly, you cross a bridge over the road, because the drivers on that road and the people crossing over or under it don't interact with one another, so less risk of an accident. You mentioned the creation of dead ends for local streets in the previous post, but grade eliminations on railroad lines do the same things as the construction of freeways and other limited-access highways. I was going to bring up something about this when I was doing a GSV shot of the Metro-North New Haven Line in Mount Vernon, New York a day or two ago, but I think I'd rather bring that up on the Mass Transit board.

Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 28, 2021, 10:46:55 AM
Not sure if this was mentioned, but one reason why a grade-separated underpass, under Rt 1, in Crystal City was shut down a few years ago was due to underutilization by the public. There was always an above-grade option as well:

https://www.arlnow.com/2018/03/22/crystal-city-pedestrian-tunnel-to-eventually-close/

Quote
The tunnel may be closed before the project begins, “because it is underutilized” and because of upkeep costs, according to a county spokesperson. The tunnel was intended as a safety improvement, though many locals take their chances at street level due to the tunnel being dark and smelling like urine.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 01:56:31 PM
But you still have the whole "great for those on the road with the crossing, awful for everyone else" situation.

Is it really so awful? Instead of crossing big wide lanes of traffic directly, you cross a bridge over the road, because the drivers on that road and the people crossing over or under it don't interact with one another, so less risk of an accident. You mentioned the creation of dead ends for local streets in the previous post, but grade eliminations on railroad lines do the same things as the construction of freeways and other limited-access highways. I was going to bring up something about this when I was doing a GSV shot of the Metro-North New Haven Line in Mount Vernon, New York a day or two ago, but I think I'd rather bring that up on the Mass Transit board.

Definitely consider the reply above mine. The comfort of using a crossing is measured by more than just how many "big wide lanes" you have to cross. Much of the time, being alone in a narrow place or having to go through somewhere dark just isn't an enjoyable experience. Then yeah, you have to consider the detour time, which can sometimes add a significant amount of time to someone's foot-based journey over just using a crossing. This is especially true for those on bikes or in wheelchairs, where ramps can add a lot of time to a journey over just crossing at-grade.

To those worried about traffic: totally fair! There is no way an at-grade US-1 through Crystal City could possible improve over grade-separation (but then, the freeway is pretty short already). And for pedestrians, we're talking about increased crossing time at those roads with underpasses (I'm not aware of any overpasses). But Crystal City and Pentagon City, especially the northern areas near the two metro stations and the Fashion Centre, is really meant to be more of an urban, walkable area, and US-1 creates this wall that segregates traffic to just a few crossing points (not ideal for a walkable area). Pentagon City has always felt nicer to me, and that might be because of how crammed Crystal City is, having a bit on either side of US-1, but with the eastern side sandwiched between US-1 and the railway; bringing the two neighborhoods together by eliminating the raised freeway and using some creative urban design could really stand to help Crystal City by physically opening it up a bit. And speaking frankly, Crystal City needs help...it's like a 70s dream frozen in time.

One thing I'd love to consider is a one-way couplet with a wide median. The US-1 right-of-way is wide enough to potentially separate the two carriageways enough that signalization could actually be improved even at the current at-grade intersections, and there'd be this large open area that could be used for many different purposes. I'm imagining it like Texas frontage roads but without the overpasses.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on January 28, 2021, 02:04:14 PM
Can't they just put in some illumination for the overpasses to make them more inviting?
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:44:29 PM
Can't they just put in some illumination for the overpasses to make them more inviting?

I assume you mean underpasses. And not really, no. Natural light is not the same as artificial lighting. The best they could do is eliminate the inside shoulder of the overpasses to create an opening for light to enter.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kphoger on January 28, 2021, 02:50:19 PM
https://www.arlnow.com/2018/03/22/crystal-city-pedestrian-tunnel-to-eventually-close/

Quote
The tunnel was intended as a safety improvement, though many locals take their chances at street level due to the tunnel being dark and smelling like urine.


Can't they just put in some illumination for the overpasses to make them more inviting?

And install some room deodorizers, I guess.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on January 28, 2021, 03:00:21 PM
Can't they just put in some illumination for the overpasses to make them more inviting?

I assume you mean underpasses. And not really, no. Natural light is not the same as artificial lighting. The best they could do is eliminate the inside shoulder of the overpasses to create an opening for light to enter.

I was referring to the grade separated intersections.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 02, 2021, 09:03:39 AM
Since there's been discussion here about Amazon, I see they've submitted plans to build this 350-foot thing at the corner of South 12th and Eads Streets. It's to be surrounded by three 22-story buildings with 2.8 million square feet of office space and—this will surely please kernals12 to no end—no parking garages.

(https://media.nbcwashington.com/2021/02/AERIAL-reduced-1.jpg?resize=850%2C478)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on February 02, 2021, 09:47:40 AM
Since there's been discussion here about Amazon, I see they've submitted plans to build this 350-foot thing at the corner of South 12th and Eads Streets. It's to be surrounded by three 22-story buildings with 2.8 million square feet of office space and—this will surely please kernals12 to no end—no parking garages.

(https://media.nbcwashington.com/2021/02/AERIAL-reduced-1.jpg?resize=850%2C478)

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: odditude on February 02, 2021, 06:22:37 PM
Since there's been discussion here about Amazon, I see they've submitted plans to build this 350-foot thing at the corner of South 12th and Eads Streets. It's to be surrounded by three 22-story buildings with 2.8 million square feet of office space and—this will surely please kernals12 to no end—no parking garages.

(image snipped)

so Seattle gets Bezos's Balls (https://www.seattlespheres.com/); NOVA gets Bezos's... poopmoji?
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: ITB on February 02, 2021, 06:33:29 PM
Since there's been discussion here about Amazon, I see they've submitted plans to build this 350-foot thing at the corner of South 12th and Eads Streets. It's to be surrounded by three 22-story buildings with 2.8 million square feet of office space and—this will surely please kernals12 to no end—no parking garages.

(https://media.nbcwashington.com/2021/02/AERIAL-reduced-1.jpg?resize=850%2C478)

Wow! Now that an unusual and unique structure. Build it!
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 03, 2021, 07:39:44 AM
....

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of employers in downtown DC don’t "provide" parking because the employees still have to pay for it, even if they get a pretax subsidy?
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on February 03, 2021, 08:18:54 AM
....

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of employers in downtown DC don’t "provide" parking because the employees still have to pay for it, even if they get a pretax subsidy?

You do realize that most DC area residents don't work downtown? Have you seen the massive parking lots around the Pentagon?
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jmacswimmer on February 03, 2021, 09:15:57 AM
....

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of employers in downtown DC don’t "provide" parking because the employees still have to pay for it, even if they get a pretax subsidy?

There's also, you know, other ways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro) to commute to work in DC (which some employers subsidize, to my understanding).

Specifically regarding the development 1995hoo mentioned, this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8626726,-77.0596939,3a,15y,251.16h,88.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf3RsDcvxN48snauv6diPGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is just 2 blocks away!

*ducks*
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: seicer on February 03, 2021, 09:31:55 AM
And not surprising, the amenities of Crystal City is one of the reasons as to why they are building there: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/02/02/amazon-arlingon-headquarters-helix/

"Company officials said they want the corporate complex to blend with the neighborhood, offering features such as a community center, an amphitheater, a dog run, new bicycle lanes and 2.5 acres of green space that would be open to anyone." (The bike lanes I believe refer to the separated bike path Amazon will help build along Army and Navy Dr.)

"The expected influx into National Landing has already inflated housing prices in the area and sparked several new transportation projects, including expansion of Amtrak and Virginia Railway Express services."

And from https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/national-landing-amazon-transportation/2020/12/22/94a4cdd4-4088-11eb-8bc0-ae155bee4aff_story.html:

"Eight major transportation projects are underway in the area, with the aim of turning what is often seen as a busy pass-through into a truly urban neighborhood where residents, office workers and visitors have easy access to local and regional amenities as well as long-distance travel."

"The projects will expand heavy rail services such as Amtrak and the Virginia Railway Express; add four new miles of protected bike lanes; turn a busy elevated highway into an urban boulevard that emphasizes safety and walkability; add additional Metro entrances; extend dedicated bus lanes; widen sidewalks and create new trailheads; and construct a pedestrian bridge over the George Washington Memorial Parkway between Crystal City and Reagan National Airport."

"“Access to good-quality, multimodal transit options was one of the key drivers in Amazon’s decision to locate in Arlington,” Brian Huseman, the retail behemoth’s vice president of public policy, said in a statement. “The additional investments in transportation infrastructure from the County and the Commonwealth will make this one of the most connected and innovative jurisdictions — benefitting the community at large.”"

Amazon chose Arlington / Crystal City -not- for the US Route 1 freeway or for Interstate 395, but for its mass transit, rail access, and walkability (among other reasons, like tax breaks).
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: kernals12 on February 03, 2021, 10:04:45 AM
....

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of employers in downtown DC don’t "provide" parking because the employees still have to pay for it, even if they get a pretax subsidy?

There's also, you know, other ways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro) to commute to work in DC (which some employers subsidize, to my understanding).

Specifically regarding the development 1995hoo mentioned, this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8626726,-77.0596939,3a,15y,251.16h,88.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf3RsDcvxN48snauv6diPGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is just 2 blocks away!

*ducks*

It's a way of commuting alright, a very miserable one. All these yuppie oriented developments are going to become ghost towns in this aging suburbanizing world of ours.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: froggie on February 03, 2021, 12:26:49 PM
Since there's been discussion here about Amazon, I see they've submitted plans to build this 350-foot thing at the corner of South 12th and Eads Streets. It's to be surrounded by three 22-story buildings with 2.8 million square feet of office space and—this will surely please kernals12 to no end—no parking garages.

(image snipped)

so Seattle gets Bezos's Balls (https://www.seattlespheres.com/); NOVA gets Bezos's... poopmoji?

You're not the first one I've seen to make the comparison...it lit up on DC area twitter yesterday.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1 on February 03, 2021, 12:30:52 PM
Since there's been discussion here about Amazon, I see they've submitted plans to build this 350-foot thing at the corner of South 12th and Eads Streets. It's to be surrounded by three 22-story buildings with 2.8 million square feet of office space and—this will surely please kernals12 to no end—no parking garages.

(image snipped)

so Seattle gets Bezos's Balls (https://www.seattlespheres.com/); NOVA gets Bezos's... poopmoji?

You're not the first one I've seen to make the comparison...it lit up on DC area twitter yesterday.

When I saw the picture, I actually thought it was intentionally built to resemble the emoji.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: Alps on February 03, 2021, 06:02:10 PM
....

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of employers in downtown DC don’t "provide" parking because the employees still have to pay for it, even if they get a pretax subsidy?

There's also, you know, other ways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro) to commute to work in DC (which some employers subsidize, to my understanding).

Specifically regarding the development 1995hoo mentioned, this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8626726,-77.0596939,3a,15y,251.16h,88.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf3RsDcvxN48snauv6diPGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is just 2 blocks away!

*ducks*

It's a way of commuting alright, a very miserable one. All these yuppie oriented developments are going to become ghost towns in this aging suburbanizing world of ours.
Personal opinion emphasized over fact.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 07:36:34 AM
....

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of employers in downtown DC don’t "provide" parking because the employees still have to pay for it, even if they get a pretax subsidy?

You do realize that most DC area residents don't work downtown? Have you seen the massive parking lots around the Pentagon?

Are you really as stupid as you make yourself sound? It’s not a secret on this forum where I live. My profile even tells you without having to click on my username.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1 on February 04, 2021, 07:43:31 AM
Are you really as stupid as you make yourself sound? It’s not a secret on this forum where I live. My profile even tells you without having to click on my username.

kernals12 might not be aware of where Fairfax County is. In addition, your location is listed as one county away; I would imagine that most people don't go to every single adjacent county (or independent city in this case) on a regular basis. For example, I live in the Lowell/Lawrence/Haverhill area, but I don't go more than a mile inside 128 that often (which is inward just like Fairfax County → Pentagon is).

You also don't need to be a local to propose a potential improvement, like I did with the left turn ban proposal and also jakeroot's analysis.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 08:09:44 AM
Are you really as stupid as you make yourself sound? It’s not a secret on this forum where I live. My profile even tells you without having to click on my username.

kernals12 might not be aware of where Fairfax County is. In addition, your location is listed as one county away; I would imagine that most people don't go to every single adjacent county (or independent city in this case) on a regular basis. For example, I live in the Lowell/Lawrence/Haverhill area, but I don't go more than a mile inside 128 that often (which is inward just like Fairfax County → Pentagon is).

You also don't need to be a local to propose a potential improvement, like I did with the left turn ban proposal and also jakeroot's analysis.

Have you read his other threads? Once upon a time, I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, much as you seem to be suggesting. But I think he's forfeited that privilege by now.

Edited to add: In addition, if kernals12 is really as much of an expert on the DC area as he claims to be, then it's reasonable to expect him to know where Fairfax County is.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jmacswimmer on February 04, 2021, 08:35:10 AM
....

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of employers in downtown DC don’t "provide" parking because the employees still have to pay for it, even if they get a pretax subsidy?

There's also, you know, other ways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro) to commute to work in DC (which some employers subsidize, to my understanding).

Specifically regarding the development 1995hoo mentioned, this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8626726,-77.0596939,3a,15y,251.16h,88.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf3RsDcvxN48snauv6diPGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is just 2 blocks away!

*ducks*

It's a way of commuting alright, a very miserable one. All these yuppie oriented developments are going to become ghost towns in this aging suburbanizing world of ours.
Personal opinion emphasized over fact.

The "yuppie oriented developments" will be just fine as long as the jobs are there to support it.  Crystal City/Pentagon City will be just fine with Amazon coming to town (as seicer explained quite nicely above).  Not to mention that big 5-sided building just on the other side of I-395!
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 08:58:14 AM
....

I'm sure they'll find it very easy to attract workers to a place like that. It's not like Washington DC has other prestigious employers that provide their employees with parking... wait.

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of employers in downtown DC don’t "provide" parking because the employees still have to pay for it, even if they get a pretax subsidy?

There's also, you know, other ways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro) to commute to work in DC (which some employers subsidize, to my understanding).

Specifically regarding the development 1995hoo mentioned, this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8626726,-77.0596939,3a,15y,251.16h,88.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf3RsDcvxN48snauv6diPGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is just 2 blocks away!

*ducks*

It's a way of commuting alright, a very miserable one. All these yuppie oriented developments are going to become ghost towns in this aging suburbanizing world of ours.
Personal opinion emphasized over fact.

The "yuppie oriented developments" will be just fine as long as the jobs are there to support it.  Crystal City/Pentagon City will be just fine with Amazon coming to town (as seicer explained quite nicely above).  Not to mention that big 5-sided building just on the other side of I-395!

Speaking of that big five-sided building, a certain someone might be surprised to see just how many people in military uniforms commute to said building on the Metrorail. Plenty of others drive, of course.

That building's parking lots are also the location of some of the most thriving slug lines in the DC area. The Street View imagery is outdated due to the surrounding roads being reconfigured in the past few years, but you can see the slug line area along here—those aren't bus shelters (https://goo.gl/maps/QDbHrq64gpMkReCT7). The overall slugging configuration remained the same after the Pentagon reconfigured the "Pork Chop" area—it's the bus access to the Pentagon Transit Center that was reconfigured to run around the outside of the Pork Chop to facilitate both vehicular and pedestrian access to and from that area by reducing conflict with traffic heading to and from the Transit Center. The satellite view gives a more accurate current image of where the roads go. (During the summer of 2019 I was working downtown at an office with no parking and the Metro was shut down south of the airport, so I rode the free shuttle bus to the Pentagon and caught the train there and thus got to see this area in operation every day.)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: seicer on February 04, 2021, 09:00:46 AM
The interesting thing is that the Pentagon has a well used Metro stop on two lines, a bus hub serving eight providers, and a long-term master plan that calls for the removal of much of the surrounding parking lots and the reconstruction of many of those wasteful loop ramps (in coordination with VDOT). For comparison purposes, the Metro stop serves ~14,000 people per day while there are 8,494 parking spaces. Additionally, federal guidelines call for a ratio of 1 parking space per 4 employees; the Pentagon is somewhere around 1:2.7, with long-term improvements taking that ratio to 1:3.2. Lastly, the surface parking lots consume up twice as much land in comparison to the buildings themselves. I've always wondered why the Pentagon doesn't build parking garages to house the cars as was originally proposed in the 2005 Master Plan (and not proposed in the 2014 Master Plan).

https://www.ncpc.gov/files/Pentagon_Reservation_Master_Plan_Project_Design_MP174_Jan2015.pdf

If you page through the years on Historic Aerials, note the prevalence of loop ramps - like it was a fashion statement that wasn't going away. Also, see page 2-7 in the document above.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 09:19:40 AM
.... I've always wondered why the Pentagon doesn't build parking garages to house the cars as was originally proposed in the 2005 Master Plan (and not proposed in the 2014 Master Plan).

....

I wonder whether it might have something to do with security and dispersing the blast effect if someone managed to set off a car bomb. I assume, but don't know for sure, that an explosion in a garage would likely be more damaging than an explosion in that big surface sea of parking because of the way the garage would presumably concentrate the blast (and, of course, if the garage collapsed).

There used to be a direct entrance into the Pentagon from the Metro station. If you get on or off the trains there, you can see where it was—it was directly across from fare control where there is now a big bricked-up wall. It was an obvious security risk. I don't remember when they closed that, but I assume it would be easy to find online. (I do recall when some security-related changes in the DC area happened: East Executive Avenue between the White House and the Treasury was closed to public vehicles after the Marine barracks in Beirut were bombed in the early 1980s. The parking garage under the Air and Space Museum was closed to the public after tensions with Libya around 1986. Pennsylvania Avenue past the White House was closed to the public during the summer of 1995, a few months after the Oklahoma City bombing.)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 04, 2021, 10:00:44 AM
The ignorance on this discussion is staggering.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 01:38:19 PM
The interesting thing is that the Pentagon has a well used Metro stop on two lines, a bus hub serving eight providers, and a long-term master plan that calls for the removal of much of the surrounding parking lots and the reconstruction of many of those wasteful loop ramps (in coordination with VDOT). For comparison purposes, the Metro stop serves ~14,000 people per day while there are 8,494 parking spaces. Additionally, federal guidelines call for a ratio of 1 parking space per 4 employees; the Pentagon is somewhere around 1:2.7, with long-term improvements taking that ratio to 1:3.2. Lastly, the surface parking lots consume up twice as much land in comparison to the buildings themselves. I've always wondered why the Pentagon doesn't build parking garages to house the cars as was originally proposed in the 2005 Master Plan (and not proposed in the 2014 Master Plan).

https://www.ncpc.gov/files/Pentagon_Reservation_Master_Plan_Project_Design_MP174_Jan2015.pdf

If you page through the years on Historic Aerials, note the prevalence of loop ramps - like it was a fashion statement that wasn't going away. Also, see page 2-7 in the document above.

I got a chance to look at that document while I was eating lunch and I notice there are mentions that parking garages were considered over the years, but then there is no discussion of them. Because several portions relating to security were redacted, that further suggests to me that the parking garages would present a security problem.

It's interesting to note all the discussion of alternatives to driving in that report. A certain someone won't read it, of course, because it doesn't fit in with his view of the "massive parking lots around the Pentagon."

Regarding the loop ramps around the Pentagon, I know there used to be a cloverleaf between what is now Pentagon City and the Pentagon Reservation. My late father was stationed at the Pentagon for the final part of his military service in the 1970s and he had a photo of it as it looked then, signed by his colleagues, from when he was discharged. That cloverleaf was in the foreground. I haven't seen that photo in a long time, but I recall thinking it looked like the interchange was with the roadways that are now the HO/T lanes just to the east of the spot where the reversible roadway used to end (or begin). (I say "used to" because reversible operations now extend east to Eads Street.)
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 04, 2021, 01:56:14 PM
Something that's crossed my mind before are the lots on the far side of 395 from the Pentagon along the north side of Army-Navy Drive:

Hayes St (across from Pentagon City Mall): https://www.google.com/maps/@38.86609,-77.06102,162m/data=!3m1!1e3

Eads St lots: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8653645,-77.0549516,162m/data=!3m1!1e3

They're really not all that convenient for getting to the Pentagon, and it seems like the DoD has to put in a disproportionate amount of resources to operates those lots (shuttles, security, etc). There's a good amount of parking, but hardly totally consequential in the big picture.

If there was ever going to be a garage compromise, I figured it would involve "transferring" those spots to a garage somewhere on the Pentagon compound, and then selling/swapping the land for separate developments.

Note that I'm not personally complaining - I find the Hayes St. lot, across from the Pentagon City mall, extremely convenient to use when I go (or used to go, pre-COVID) shopping at that mall on nights, weekends, and holidays (all free-use for the public).

Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 02:00:08 PM
....

Note that I'm not personally complaining - I find the Hayes St. lot, across from the Pentagon City mall, extremely convenient to use when I go (or used to go, pre-COVID) shopping at that mall on nights, weekends, and holidays (all free-use for the public).

I did not know about this availability, and I was contemplating going to that mall this weekend. Thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 04, 2021, 02:04:55 PM
Maybe I shouldn't haven given away my good tips!

If the weather is bad, or if I know I'll conduct business at Macy's/Nordstroms, I'll take the free validated parking.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8657889,-77.0606,3a,15y,49.1h,90.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEediFE1tBuStqCzthj3KhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

And since the recent removal of the guard shack (a couple years ago), you can probably test your luck and even get in a bit before 5:00 PM, but YMMV.

I realize the sign doesn't explicitly say "Public parking allowed during other hours", but I've parked there literally at least 50 times in the past few years, without any issue. The thing to remember is that this is one of the main ways to get to the 9-11 memorial, so I imagine they might prefer to allow the general public to use this particular lot, and walk over to the memorial. I'll note that there are now a few motorcoach parking spaces there as well.

Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on February 04, 2021, 02:20:32 PM
On the two Pentagon lots south of 395:

I measured on Google Maps, and both lots are about 1500 feet from main Pentagon entrances. About three-tenths of a mile, give or take. Doesn't seem long enough to justify a shuttle. Especially when you consider how big the Pentagon already is. I walked a loop of the place in December 2019, and it's not exactly a short walk round. I'm sure the workers are more than fit enough to stomach that walk!
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2021, 02:26:20 PM
On the two Pentagon lots south of 395:

I measured on Google Maps, and both lots are about 1500 feet from main Pentagon entrances. About three-tenths of a mile, give or take. Doesn't seem long enough to justify a shuttle. Especially when you consider how big the Pentagon already is. I walked a loop of the place in December 2019, and it's not exactly a short walk round. I'm sure the workers are more than fit enough to stomach that walk!

Could the shuttles perhaps relate to accessibility for handicapped personnel?
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 04, 2021, 02:45:06 PM
On the two Pentagon lots south of 395:

I measured on Google Maps, and both lots are about 1500 feet from main Pentagon entrances. About three-tenths of a mile, give or take. Doesn't seem long enough to justify a shuttle. Especially when you consider how big the Pentagon already is. I walked a loop of the place in December 2019, and it's not exactly a short walk round. I'm sure the workers are more than fit enough to stomach that walk!

Could the shuttles perhaps relate to accessibility for handicapped personnel?

Or bad weather, or elderly, or carrying heavy objects, etc.

Honestly, shuttles are a really cheap and easy way to augment parking capacity when you don't have enough land in adjoining areas.

Also, if you ever wait for a bus at the Pentagon, you can see the "shadow" bus system that WHS runs between DOD sites in Northern VA and Downtown DC.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: jakeroot on February 04, 2021, 02:56:56 PM
On the two Pentagon lots south of 395:

I measured on Google Maps, and both lots are about 1500 feet from main Pentagon entrances. About three-tenths of a mile, give or take. Doesn't seem long enough to justify a shuttle. Especially when you consider how big the Pentagon already is. I walked a loop of the place in December 2019, and it's not exactly a short walk round. I'm sure the workers are more than fit enough to stomach that walk!

Could the shuttles perhaps relate to accessibility for handicapped personnel?

Or bad weather, or elderly, or carrying heavy objects, etc.

Honestly, shuttles are a really cheap and easy way to augment parking capacity when you don't have enough land in adjoining areas.

Also, if you ever wait for a bus at the Pentagon, you can see the "shadow" bus system that WHS runs between DOD sites in Northern VA and Downtown DC.

I don't think the parking would be for ADA. There's no ADA parking in those lots.

But sure, yeah, I mean bad weather and other stuff sure. But then the walk between those lots and the primary non-shuttle lots are almost totally covered by the freeway.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: NJRoadfan on February 04, 2021, 07:11:46 PM
Speaking of that big five-sided building, a certain someone might be surprised to see just how many people in military uniforms commute to said building on the Metrorail. Plenty of others drive, of course.

The ads directed at the patrons of the Pentagon City Metro station are a sight to see as well (its all military contractors).

As for Crystal City, many years ago I stayed at the Marriott Crystal Gateway in a room that overlooked US-1. If they remove the interchange, there may be queuing issues on I-395 South due to the traffic backing up at the lights. Its already pretty bad with things as they are right now during rush hour.

I did some walking around the area for a bite to eat and I wouldn't say US-1 right now is too pedestrian friendly. Just a ton of traffic, most of which not expecting too many peds crossing the street.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: froggie on February 07, 2021, 09:42:07 AM
It's worth noting that the Hayes St lot has a pedestrian tunnel under 395.  I used it a few times when I bike commuted to the Pentagon.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: mrsman on February 22, 2021, 08:11:42 AM
Curious about the huge Pentagon lots.  I expect that senior staff and registered carpools can get spots there.  Given the large number, even a market rate charge is probably not too expensive, and probably a lot cheaper than private lots in Pentagon City or Crystal City.  For even something like $50/month, it is far more convenient to drive than to take public transportation, even if the subsidies make the cost $0.  The Pentagon is probably one of the easiest parts of the area, outside of Downtown DC, to commute by alternate transportation.

If they really want to push more people out of their cars, they can simply close some of the lots and raise the prices.
Title: Re: Locals don't want the US 1 overpasses near Crystal City torn down
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 24, 2021, 12:14:06 PM
Parking lots *on* government facilities are generally, if not always, free. In fact, I don't even know if the agencies that own the parking lots/garages have the authority to charge for parking if it was warranted.

Note that this does not include private buildings in and around DC which are partially or fully-leased by federal agencies - a not uncommon arrangement.

Your policy recommendation (close the lots and institute a parking fee) wouldn't make it past a first-level review at the Pentagon, let alone Congressional oversight.

The only way I could see surface lots closing is for a replacement with parking garages (i.e. retain or grow the amount of parking spaces, but with less square footage involved).

Because if you close the lots - then what do you do with them? There's already a full transit hub there, so there's no real growth opportunity for mass transit. In theory you could develop the land by selling it off, but I can't see that happening for reasons related to security and the real estate market.

If you're going to get rid of *any* Pentagon-owned lots, it would be the ones on the south side of I-395, along Army-Navy Drive:

1) They're the furthest away and hence least convenient
2) They don't hold too many spots (although they do have parking for motor coaches visiting the 9/11 memorial, and also the Pentagon Reservation shuttle bus fleet)
3) They're the most likely to be possibly developed in the future, along with the Amazon City/National Landing/Bezosville developments.