AARoads Forum

National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: webny99 on June 01, 2017, 09:03:45 PM

Title: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on June 01, 2017, 09:03:45 PM
Do you like it? Hate it? Do it yourself?

What are your thoughts on making and enforcing a law "keep right except to pass"? In countries such as Sweden, such a law already exists in the form of "no passing on the right". If you want to pass someone who is in the left lane, you flash them and wait until they get over.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 01, 2017, 10:04:06 PM
Do you like it? Hate it? Do it yourself?

What are your thoughts on making and enforcing a law "keep right except to pass"? In countries such as Sweden, such a law already exists in the form of "no passing on the right". If you want to pass someone who is in the left lane, you flash them and wait until they get over.

And when they don't get over, you're stuck behind them for potenially hours.

Here in the US, you're generally allowed to pass in any lane to avoid such a situation. Yes, traffic should keep right, but if it doesn't, the law doesn't penalize the passer.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 7/8 on June 01, 2017, 10:07:35 PM
Left lane camping is one of my biggest pet peeves. It seems to be a problem in Ontario, and I'm sure that our low freeway speed limits of 100 km/h are partly to blame.

My friend drove me and two other friends to Toronto a year ago and he stayed in the left lane the entire time we were on the 401 (65 km!). Naturally, he was doing 100-105, despite the fact that the unofficial speed limit in Ontario is 120. Needless to say, we got passed on the right countless times and got glared at by many drivers. His defence was that he was technically speeding, and therefore he could use the fast lane :pan:. He doesn't seem to do this as much anymore, probably after being criticized by friends and family.

I've given up on the no-passing-on-the-right suggestion. In my mind, if I can pass on the right, the driver I'm passing is likely in the wrong lane! In fact, in Ontario, it's not uncommon for the right lane to be empty. This is because the left lane can be blocked by a slow driver, the middle lane is seen as the default lane for many drivers (so they don't have to deal with trucks in the right lane). I'm willing to use the right lane for passing if people are blocking the left lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Max Rockatansky on June 01, 2017, 10:10:51 PM
Big problem out here on CA 99 between Bakersfield and Visalia.  You can end up with a freight train of 60-70 cars sometimes because you'll have slow poke hogging the left lane or not pushing it to pass.  Its one of the biggest reasons I avoid 99 like the plague, it is annoying as all hell and actually creates the potential for getting into a huge pileup....especially during the foggy season.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 01, 2017, 10:19:49 PM
Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 7/8 on June 01, 2017, 10:29:14 PM
Left lane camping is one of my biggest pet peeves. It seems to be a problem in Ontraio, and I'm sure that our low freeway speed limits of 100 km/h are partly to blame.

I agree to such an extent that I'll forgive the typo :D Try the QEW between the Falls and Burlington on a summer weekend  :wow:

Sorry, I find it hard not to make typos on my tablet. I found that stretch bad even on Friday evenings during September to December. The worst is that the right and middle lanes weren't that busy, but the left lane would be jammed because of a left lane slowpoke :ded:

Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?

I define it as a driver who won't move right when safe to do so, especially if someone behind them wants to drive faster.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Max Rockatansky on June 01, 2017, 10:30:57 PM
You can end up with a freight train of 60-70 cars sometimes because you'll have slow poke hogging the left lane or not pushing it to pass.

The thruway says hello :) Having traveled from the PA line to Rochester over Memorial weekend, I can relate.

Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?

If you're in the left lane and not passing, you're camping. Period.
That said, I'll go with "less than speed of traffic" because going below the limit in the left lane is relatively rare in my experience.

Usually CA 43 or CA 65 makes for a decent alternate.  It seems like most people can't handle a two-lane road, that being the case I'm generally more than happy to be out all by myself even if it is a little slower.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on June 01, 2017, 10:33:53 PM
I feel very strongly about staying out of the left lane when you're not passing, although I will allow for exceptions when a road is in particularly bad shape such that the left lane has fewer ruts and potholes (the one that immediately comes to mind is Quebec's Autoroute 15 between the border and Montreal, though maybe they've fixed it since the last time I was through there). Aside from that exception, I feel it's rude to make other drivers slow down or pass you on the right, regardless of what speed you're going, and I despise the idea that "I'm exiting on the left five miles up the road, so I'm using the left lane because nobody will let me over closer to my exit" (BS!).

None of this applies on most urban or suburban streets, of course, nor on urban or suburban Interstates or similar when the traffic is too congested to flow freely.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: tradephoric on June 01, 2017, 11:07:56 PM



Title: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Sam on June 01, 2017, 11:16:00 PM
What if "Car A" is in the left lane at 10 mph over the limit, passing 2-3 cars who are 5 mph over the limit, and "Car B" flies up behind "Car A" at 15 over, tailgating and acting impatient? What do you think "Car A" should do?



Edit:  "Car B" is not a police car :)
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2017, 06:18:30 AM
What if "Car A" is in the left lane at 10 mph over the limit, passing 2-3 cars who are 5 mph over the limit, and "Car B" flies up behind "Car A" at 15 over, tailgating and acting impatient? What do you think "Car A" should do?

Edit:  "Car B" is not a police car :)

If those 2 or 3 cars are close together, that's fine.  If those 2 or 3 cars are spaced apart so much that I could merge right, pass the vehicle in the left lane, then merge back in the left lane to pass those on the right, then Car A should've gotten over instead.

Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?

Technically, the board doesn't have any specific definitions.  It's up to the forum members, and our definitions will differ.  That said, I think the majority of us believe it to be travelling at less than the speed of traffic.

Here's my additional take on that:  If you're going less than the speed limit, can you drink a beer?  Of course not.  Thus, you can't camp in the left lane claiming that you're obeying the speed limit law.  The laws are separate and distinct, and by following one law, it doesn't exclude you from obeying other laws.  Another case in point: If the speed limit is 50, and you're doing 50, you're not allowed to ignore the stop sign on your road.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: tradephoric on June 02, 2017, 08:30:36 AM
What if "Car A" is in the left lane at 10 mph over the limit, passing 2-3 cars who are 5 mph over the limit, and "Car B" flies up behind "Car A" at 15 over, tailgating and acting impatient? What do you think "Car A" should do?

Edit:  "Car B" is not a police car :)

I would continue passing the cars in the left lane, even if there was enough space between cars to let Car B by.  If Car B attempted to pass me in the right lane and 'shoot the gap' between the cars i am passing, i would speed up so that they can't get by.  When i finish passing the cars i would continue to drive in the left lane with my right turn blinker on.  I would then wait for Car B to swerve back into the right lane to try to pass me, at which point i would quickly move back into the right lane infront of Car B (after all, i did have my blinker on).  When Car B swerves back into the left lane, i would gun it to match whatever speed they are willing to drive, making sure to stay in-front of Car B.  As i approach another vehicle in the right lane, i would move back into the left lane infront of Car B and reduce my speed to closely match the speed of the vehicle i am passing.... maybe going 0.2 mph faster so it would take a very long time to complete the pass.  At this point, i know the driver would be enraged so i would finally move over into the right lane to let them pass as they fly by me at 90-100 mph.  At this point, you just cross your fingers that there is a cop with his radar gun out a few miles down the road.

EDIT:  I forgot one thing.  In the perfect scenario where the guy gets pulled over a few miles down the road, you honk as you are passing them.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 02 Park Ave on June 02, 2017, 09:51:57 AM
It seems that on the three lane section of the Ohio Turnpike driving in the left lane is encouraged.  There are overhead signs above the right and center lanes stating that trucks and slower vehicles are to use those lanes.

With light traffic, cars drive in the left lanes until overtaken by a faster car.  Then the first car pulls into the center lane to let the faster car pass and then returns to the left lane.  Trucks almost always stay in the right lane.

I've seen cars drive in the left lane for miles on end with the right and center lanes almost empty.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: hbelkins on June 02, 2017, 12:45:17 PM
Waiting with bated breath to see how any Buckeyes monitoring this thread will respond, since many of them seem to enjoy cruising in the left lane on Kentucky four-lane routes.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: doorknob60 on June 02, 2017, 01:38:21 PM
Hate it. Now, I don't mind it on urban freeways so much, especially if there's a left exit (for example the eastbound exit from I-84 to I-184). With that much traffic, we need the capacity of all the lanes, no point in trying to force yourself over to the right (though if you're over there at least try to keep at minimum the speed limit, if not the flow of traffic; if you don't then I do have a problem). And I get staying out of the right lane near onramps with a lot of merging traffic (again urban/suburban, typically 3-4 lanes each direction). But on any rural highways I hate it and there's no excuse. I see it a lot with drivers with Washington plates, in my anecdotal experience.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Rothman on June 02, 2017, 02:46:44 PM
Waiting with bated breath to see how any Buckeyes monitoring this thread will respond, since many of them seem to enjoy cruising in the left lane on Kentucky four-lane routes.

This is so true.  Ohioans are the worst when it comes to left-lane blocking.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: CYoder on June 02, 2017, 02:55:32 PM
Waiting with bated breath to see how any Buckeyes monitoring this thread will respond, since many of them seem to enjoy cruising in the left lane on Kentucky four-lane routes.

This is so true.  Ohioans are the worst when it comes to left-lane blocking.
They are.  (Former Ohioan.)
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 02, 2017, 04:08:48 PM
Washingtonians really aren't that bad about keeping right. Neither are British Columbians. I see it from time to time, but a quick flash of the high beams usually gets them out of the way.

Washington's law seems to make sense...general rule of thumb is "drive in the right hand lane", but there are logical exceptions, such as moving over to allow traffic to merge.

The one odd thing is subsection B, which states that you must travel in the right hand lane unless you are "travelling at a speed greater than the traffic flow". I'm not even sure how to interpret that. Perhaps an odd way of saying "if you're going faster than traffic, use the left lane", or "no passing on the right"?

Quote from: RCW 46.61.100 ~2
Upon all roadways having two or more lanes for traffic moving in the same direction, all vehicles shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, except (a) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction, (b) when traveling at a speed greater than the traffic flow, (c) when moving left to allow traffic to merge, or (d) when preparing for a left turn at an intersection, exit, or into a private road or driveway when such left turn is legally permitted. On any such roadway, a vehicle or combination over ten thousand pounds shall be driven only in the right-hand lane except under the conditions enumerated in (a) through (d) of this subsection.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Bickendan on June 02, 2017, 06:20:19 PM
Oregonians tend to be bad about this. But, 65 on I-5...
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: machias on June 03, 2017, 02:50:48 PM
Waiting with bated breath to see how any Buckeyes monitoring this thread will respond, since many of them seem to enjoy cruising in the left lane on Kentucky four-lane routes.

This is so true.  Ohioans are the worst when it comes to left-lane blocking.

I second that emotion. I sometimes wonder if the Ohio Turnpike needed the third lane for such long stretches if folks used proper lane discipline. On the NYS Thruway, it's Ohio folks that hog the left lane in the western part of the state. In the eastern part of the state it's the Massholes (along with plenty of NYS tags as well).
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on June 03, 2017, 10:00:31 PM
There's no tent, and he's technically in the shoulder, but does this count as "left lane camping"?
(https://i.imgur.com/Qsr8Ef1.jpg)
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: DaBigE on June 03, 2017, 10:07:33 PM
There's no tent, and he's technically in the shoulder, but does this count as "left lane camping"?
(https://i.imgur.com/Qsr8Ef1.jpg)

I'd say no.

There's also no sleeping bag, either. Now if he was doing it in or with a camper/RV, then I'd say it counts.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: hm insulators on June 14, 2017, 02:19:34 PM
 :-D :spin: :clap:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 02 Park Ave on June 14, 2017, 04:24:40 PM
When self-driving cars become commonplace this topic will be moot.  The cars will all be programmed to drive at the posted speed limit while keeping a safe distance from other vehicles.  It will be ideal.  They will all be rolling along at the same speed with no need for passing.  The highways will take on the appearance of assembly lines.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 14, 2017, 05:18:29 PM
When self-driving cars become commonplace this topic will be moot.  The cars will all be programmed to drive at the posted speed limit while keeping a safe distance from other vehicles.  It will be ideal.  They will all be rolling along at the same speed with no need for passing.  The highways will take on the appearance of assembly lines.

They will go the "speed limit", but I suspect the "limit" will be much higher. As long as no one's crashing into each other, and all the cars and trucks are going the same speed, traffic could easily maintain 90-100 mph. Really, the theoretical maximum limit is the limit of the efficiency of our vehicles. Maintaining too-high of a speed for too long is terrible for fuel efficiency, gas or electric.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1 on June 14, 2017, 05:22:42 PM
When self-driving cars become commonplace this topic will be moot.  The cars will all be programmed to drive at the posted speed limit while keeping a safe distance from other vehicles.  It will be ideal.  They will all be rolling along at the same speed with no need for passing.  The highways will take on the appearance of assembly lines.

They will go the "speed limit", but I suspect the "limit" will be much higher. As long as no one's crashing into each other, and all the cars and trucks are going the same speed, traffic could easily maintain 90-100 mph. Really, the theoretical maximum limit is the limit of the efficiency of our vehicles. Maintaining too-high of a speed for too long is terrible for fuel efficiency, gas or electric.

There is maximum speed while turning (depending on coefficient of friction, and slope in the case of entrance/exit ramps), and there is a maximum acceleration that's safe for humans. I think this would limit it to some value below 90-100 mph in areas with frequent exits (and much lower on surface roads, where left turns are allowed).
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kkt on June 14, 2017, 05:28:55 PM
There's no tent, and he's technically in the shoulder, but does this count as "left lane camping"?
(https://i.imgur.com/Qsr8Ef1.jpg)

 :-D
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Rothman on June 14, 2017, 05:34:47 PM
When self-driving cars become commonplace this topic will be moot.  The cars will all be programmed to drive at the posted speed limit while keeping a safe distance from other vehicles.  It will be ideal.  They will all be rolling along at the same speed with no need for passing.  The highways will take on the appearance of assembly lines.
It will be awful as people think that they can get there faster if they were driving. 

All it will take is one malfunction that causes deaths to make people rethink this.  At least when accidents happen now, some driver is to blame.  When self-driving accidents happen, some opaque system will be. 

It is the first step towards the Apocalypse.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 14, 2017, 06:36:27 PM
When self-driving cars become commonplace this topic will be moot.  The cars will all be programmed to drive at the posted speed limit while keeping a safe distance from other vehicles.  It will be ideal.  They will all be rolling along at the same speed with no need for passing.  The highways will take on the appearance of assembly lines.

They will go the "speed limit", but I suspect the "limit" will be much higher. As long as no one's crashing into each other, and all the cars and trucks are going the same speed, traffic could easily maintain 90-100 mph. Really, the theoretical maximum limit is the limit of the efficiency of our vehicles. Maintaining too-high of a speed for too long is terrible for fuel efficiency, gas or electric.

There is maximum speed while turning (depending on coefficient of friction, and slope in the case of entrance/exit ramps), and there is a maximum acceleration that's safe for humans. I think this would limit it to some value below 90-100 mph in areas with frequent exits (and much lower on surface roads, where left turns are allowed).

Yes, true. But as cars advance, the amount of force they can handle will inevitably go up. There used to be a point where all SUVs had tip-over warnings on the visor. While some still have the warning, most don't because manufacturers have found many, many clever ways of preventing a car from tipping over on a sharp corner (ESC, lower center of gravity, amongst other things). This is just in about twenty years. By the time self-driving cars are mainstream, I can't even imagine how much safer they'll be.

There's still a physical limit, I won't deny that. But we'll quickly approach that limit. My feeling is that cars will go as fast as they can on the straights, and intelligently slow down in advance of the 'hard stuff' (chiefly, bends).

Surface streets are another story entirely. I have not the slightest idea how they'll work.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kkt on June 14, 2017, 06:44:50 PM
They still have a very long ways to go.  The car can't tell the difference between a semi trailer and a BGS?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 14, 2017, 08:25:49 PM
The car can't tell the difference between a semi trailer and a BGS?

Where'd you see this?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kkt on June 15, 2017, 05:29:59 PM
The car can't tell the difference between a semi trailer and a BGS?

Where'd you see this?

We just talked about this in another thread, didn't we?  Maybe it was some other board.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/6/30/12072408/tesla-autopilot-car-crash-death-autonomous-model-s

Quote
The accident occurred on a divided highway in central Florida when a tractor trailer drove across the highway perpendicular to the Model S. Neither the driver — who Tesla notes is ultimately responsible for the vehicle’s actions, even with Autopilot on — nor the car noticed the big rig or the trailer "against a brightly lit sky" and brakes were not applied. In a tweet, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said that the vehicle's radar didn't help in this case because it "tunes out what looks like an overhead road sign to avoid false braking events."





Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 16, 2017, 01:17:04 AM
The car can't tell the difference between a semi trailer and a BGS?

Where'd you see this?

We just talked about this in another thread, didn't we?  Maybe it was some other board.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/6/30/12072408/tesla-autopilot-car-crash-death-autonomous-model-s

Tesla's Autopilot is way behind the technologies being developed by Waymo, Uber, etc. It's hardly even the same thing.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on June 16, 2017, 08:07:49 AM
When self-driving cars become commonplace this topic will be moot.  The cars will all be programmed to drive at the posted speed limit while keeping a safe distance from other vehicles.  It will be ideal.  They will all be rolling along at the same speed with no need for passing.  The highways will take on the appearance of assembly lines.


Mandate on having same type of tires, same type of brake pads and same degree of wear-out for those would also make things work better.
There is also a need to have same load in truck to make sure they accelerate and slow down at the same rate. No full or empty, every truck on the road has to be half-full, period. Those oversize or heavy trucks, underpowered vehicles - they have no right to drive on public road!


Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Super Mateo on June 16, 2017, 09:38:48 AM
When self-driving cars become commonplace this topic will be moot.  The cars will all be programmed to drive at the posted speed limit while keeping a safe distance from other vehicles.  It will be ideal.  They will all be rolling along at the same speed with no need for passing.  The highways will take on the appearance of assembly lines.

Which is the exact reason I don't think they'll ever become commonplace.  Governments won't want to give up the revenue that comes along with speeding tickets, and I think many people will want to go faster than those cars will allow, meaning they'll drive their own cars.

And I hate slow left lane drivers as much as anyone.  It's a pattern with them:  they camp out in the left lane, blocking traffic.  Because of that, passing traffic is trying to get around them now, too.  the passers get impatient, so they end up cutting off the left lane car.  Then that lefty feels unsafe and starts going even slower, getting cut off by even more people.  Never do they realize that the problem it that they're in the left lane.  Never.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 16, 2017, 05:36:41 PM
...I don't think [self driving cars will] ever become commonplace.  Governments won't want to give up the revenue that comes along with speeding tickets, and I think many people will want to go faster than those cars will allow, meaning they'll drive their own cars.

Eventually, people won't be allowed to drive anymore, at least not on public streets. Tens of thousands are people are killed on the roads every year, but we turn a blind eye because we're used to it. The second the government figures out a way to prevent most of those fatalities from occurring, the "old way" will quickly become obselete or illegal. Humans just don't have a good history when it comes to operating large vehicles.

As for speeding revenue, while that could be true, there's no way that could ever be a reason. I can imagine it now, "yeah, uhhh, those self driving things are uhh, too good. yeah, we aren't making uhh any money anymore, so yeah they gotta go mkay".
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on June 16, 2017, 08:43:56 PM
...I don't think [self driving cars will] ever become commonplace.  Governments won't want to give up the revenue that comes along with speeding tickets, and I think many people will want to go faster than those cars will allow, meaning they'll drive their own cars.

Eventually, people won't be allowed to drive anymore, at least not on public streets. Tens of thousands are people are killed on the roads every year, but we turn a blind eye because we're used to it. The second the government figures out a way to prevent most of those fatalities from occurring, the "old way" will quickly become obselete or illegal. Humans just don't have a good history when it comes to operating large vehicles.

As for speeding revenue, while that could be true, there's no way that could ever be a reason. I can imagine it now, "yeah, uhhh, those self driving things are uhh, too good. yeah, we aren't making uhh any money anymore, so yeah they gotta go mkay".
So far, approach to vehicle certification seem to be "legal to sale on manufacturing date - legal to drive forever". I've met several Ford-T on the parking lot the other day... With license plates making them legal for the road. No seatbelts, though.
So I don't see manual driving becoming illegal effective 1/1/20XX, because that will outlaw those Ford-Ts.. ANd there is no way to make them self0driving, apparently.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 16, 2017, 11:14:46 PM
...I don't think [self driving cars will] ever become commonplace.  Governments won't want to give up the revenue that comes along with speeding tickets, and I think many people will want to go faster than those cars will allow, meaning they'll drive their own cars.

Eventually, people won't be allowed to drive anymore, at least not on public streets. Tens of thousands are people are killed on the roads every year, but we turn a blind eye because we're used to it. The second the government figures out a way to prevent most of those fatalities from occurring, the "old way" will quickly become obselete or illegal. Humans just don't have a good history when it comes to operating large vehicles.

As for speeding revenue, while that could be true, there's no way that could ever be a reason. I can imagine it now, "yeah, uhhh, those self driving things are uhh, too good. yeah, we aren't making uhh any money anymore, so yeah they gotta go mkay".

So far, approach to vehicle certification seem to be "legal to sale on manufacturing date - legal to drive forever". I've met several Ford-T on the parking lot the other day... With license plates making them legal for the road. No seatbelts, though.
So I don't see manual driving becoming illegal effective 1/1/20XX, because that will outlaw those Ford-Ts.. ANd there is no way to make them self0driving, apparently.

Banning manual-drive vehicles certainly seems far-out, considering how ingrained they are in our culture. And I'm certainly not looking forward to the day that they do get banned (and its hard to say if it will be a specific day or a gradual process). I'm just not sure how else we're going to reach that "vision zero" target (even if it takes way longer than that 2030s goal). Like I said above, humans just aren't trustworthy.

My guess is that we'll build roads that don't allow self-driving, and after a while, merge everything.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: amroad17 on June 16, 2017, 11:53:13 PM
aka "Nestoring"

I saw many cars with Ohio tags "Nestoring" on the WV Turnpike on my recent vacation to Va. Beach.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: thenetwork on June 17, 2017, 12:41:32 AM
Quote from: upstatenyroads
I sometimes wonder if the Ohio Turnpike needed the third lane for such long stretches if folks used proper lane discipline.

Three-laning was necessary due to the amount of traffic using the pike between Youngstown and Toledo.  When they rehabbed/paved the Turnpike in the 2 lane-days, one direction. Would cross over and there would be 1-lane traffic in both directions. 

During those times, there were weekends and holidays where you would regularly have miles-long backups and delays approaching these zones.  Multiply that times 3 or 4 zones between those two cities and you can see that adding a lane was sorely needed. 

Now there is almost always at least 2 lanes in each direction in work zones and no cross-overs. 
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: bzakharin on June 20, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
I will stay in the left lane when not passing in the following situations:
I will stay in the non-rightmost lane of a 3+ lane road in the following additional situations:
In addition, if I miscalculated the need for passing or the car I was planning to pass has sped up or left the road, I will let whoever will be passing me on the right to complete said action before returning to the right lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 20, 2017, 01:34:49 PM
There's no tent, and he's technically in the shoulder, but does this count as "left lane camping"?
(https://i.imgur.com/Qsr8Ef1.jpg)

Looks like I-64 westbound in Norfolk, Virginia approaching the  Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel (HRBT), a place notorious for queues like this.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 20, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
Do you like it? Hate it? Do it yourself?

What are your thoughts on making and enforcing a law "keep right except to pass"? In countries such as Sweden, such a law already exists in the form of "no passing on the right". If you want to pass someone who is in the left lane, you flash them and wait until they get over.

Swedish drivers do something else that I like (on Super-2 highways  and on 2-lane undivided rural arterials - they will move onto the shoulder (when  available, and it  is not always there) to let faster traffic by.

This is not just on long uphills either.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2017, 01:48:48 PM
I will stay in the left lane when not passing in the following situations:
  • There is a flooding risk and the left lane is higher than the right lane
  • Poor visibility (usually heavy rain) and I can see a car in front of me in the left lane, but not in the right
  • Unfamiliar roadway with left exit (or turn on a non-freeway) I need to take coming up in a few miles
  • Express tolls where there is a chance the cars in the right lane will slow down
I will stay in the non-rightmost lane of a 3+ lane road in the following additional situations:
  • I am done passing, but the next vehicle ahead in the right lane is a truck, however far away it is
  • At night or in poor visibility, for a few miles after passing or any of the above situations
  • Unfamiliar roadway with frequent lane drops and additions (think Schuylkill Expressway)
In addition, if I miscalculated the need for passing or the car I was planning to pass has sped up or left the road, I will let whoever will be passing me on the right to complete said action before returning to the right lane.

These are all reasons why our roads are more jammed than needed.  If there's someone (or multiple) people behind you in the left lane, and you're staying in the left lane for any of the above reasons, you're the one causing the problem.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: bzakharin on June 20, 2017, 02:49:20 PM
I will stay in the left lane when not passing in the following situations:
  • There is a flooding risk and the left lane is higher than the right lane
  • Poor visibility (usually heavy rain) and I can see a car in front of me in the left lane, but not in the right
  • Unfamiliar roadway with left exit (or turn on a non-freeway) I need to take coming up in a few miles
  • Express tolls where there is a chance the cars in the right lane will slow down
I will stay in the non-rightmost lane of a 3+ lane road in the following additional situations:
  • I am done passing, but the next vehicle ahead in the right lane is a truck, however far away it is
  • At night or in poor visibility, for a few miles after passing or any of the above situations
  • Unfamiliar roadway with frequent lane drops and additions (think Schuylkill Expressway)
In addition, if I miscalculated the need for passing or the car I was planning to pass has sped up or left the road, I will let whoever will be passing me on the right to complete said action before returning to the right lane.

These are all reasons why our roads are more jammed than needed.  If there's someone (or multiple) people behind you in the left lane, and you're staying in the left lane for any of the above reasons, you're the one causing the problem.
I will modify my behavior when there are vehicles behind me trying to go faster, and no free lane to the left of me. If I can safely get into the right lane in such a situation without considerably dropping my speed, I do. If I can't, I speed up to whatever speed I feel safe going on that road (or to match their speed, whichever is lower) until I can get out of the way.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 21, 2017, 01:04:44 AM
Do you like it? Hate it? Do it yourself?

What are your thoughts on making and enforcing a law "keep right except to pass"? In countries such as Sweden, such a law already exists in the form of "no passing on the right". If you want to pass someone who is in the left lane, you flash them and wait until they get over.

Swedish drivers do something else that I like (on Super-2 highways  and on 2-lane undivided rural arterials - they will move onto the shoulder (when  available, and it  is not always there) to let faster traffic by.

This is not just on long uphills either.

I see this from time to time in the US. But usually only when the shoulder becomes a dedicated lay-by/pull-off. So I guess it doesn't count.

In South Africa, I see cars pass directly on the center line, while traffic from either direction drifts into the shoulder as to accommodate. I don't think I've seen that maneuver in the US before.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: corco on June 21, 2017, 01:22:30 AM
Do you like it? Hate it? Do it yourself?

What are your thoughts on making and enforcing a law "keep right except to pass"? In countries such as Sweden, such a law already exists in the form of "no passing on the right". If you want to pass someone who is in the left lane, you flash them and wait until they get over.

Swedish drivers do something else that I like (on Super-2 highways  and on 2-lane undivided rural arterials - they will move onto the shoulder (when  available, and it  is not always there) to let faster traffic by.

This is not just on long uphills either.

I see this from time to time in the US. But usually only when the shoulder becomes a dedicated lay-by/pull-off. So I guess it doesn't count.

In South Africa, I see cars pass directly on the center line, while traffic from either direction drifts into the shoulder as to accommodate. I don't think I've seen that maneuver in the US before.

The only place I've actually seen it is in Washington - on SR 112 there is a signed opportunity to use the shoulder for passing, and a sign posted to that effect ("driving on shoulder permitted" or something to that effect). I feel like there's one or two other places on the Olympic Peninsula where that is the case too but can't remember off the top of my head.

Center line passing is pretty common in Mexico - and in Bulgaria (as far as other countries I've driven in). I like driving where people do that - traffic flows really smoothly, and it doesn't seem particularly dangerous if everybody is paying attention.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 21, 2017, 01:37:15 AM
Do you like it? Hate it? Do it yourself?

What are your thoughts on making and enforcing a law "keep right except to pass"? In countries such as Sweden, such a law already exists in the form of "no passing on the right". If you want to pass someone who is in the left lane, you flash them and wait until they get over.

Swedish drivers do something else that I like (on Super-2 highways  and on 2-lane undivided rural arterials - they will move onto the shoulder (when  available, and it  is not always there) to let faster traffic by.

This is not just on long uphills either.

I see this from time to time in the US. But usually only when the shoulder becomes a dedicated lay-by/pull-off. So I guess it doesn't count.

In South Africa, I see cars pass directly on the center line, while traffic from either direction drifts into the shoulder as to accommodate. I don't think I've seen that maneuver in the US before.

The only place I've actually seen it is in Washington - on SR 112 there is a signed opportunity to use the shoulder for passing, and a sign posted to that effect ("driving on shoulder permitted" or something to that effect). I feel like there's one or two other places on the Olympic Peninsula where that is the case too but can't remember off the top of my head.

I drive Hwy 410 between Yakima and Bonney Lake every summer, and there are several areas along the route where signs point to the shoulder with "SLOW VEHICLE PULLOUT" written on them, indicating to slow drivers to use the shoulder to allow faster vehicles by. This low-res Street View link (https://goo.gl/zwj5aV) was the first example I could find, but there are more. I think there's even one example where the shoulder line becomes dotted, but I can't quite remember where.

Center line passing is pretty common in Mexico - and in Bulgaria (as far as other countries I've driven in). I like driving where people do that - traffic flows really smoothly, and it doesn't seem particularly dangerous if everybody is paying attention.

Yeah, I quite like it! I seem to recall having read somewhere that "improper passing" was the third most common cause of road deaths in South Africa, so I approach the idea cautiously. But lack of driver education/training makes the maneuver more dangerous than it needs to be.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: corco on June 21, 2017, 01:51:36 AM
Yeah regular slow vehicle turnouts are pretty common in the west - very common in Idaho especially (and strictly enforced!).

This is what I was referring to on 112:
https://goo.gl/maps/WxiBoq4Lbi32

with an end sign:
https://goo.gl/maps/Qb9s8PdwPWn
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on June 21, 2017, 11:54:31 AM
Yeah regular slow vehicle turnouts are pretty common in the west - very common in Idaho especially (and strictly enforced!).

This is what I was referring to on 112:
https://goo.gl/maps/WxiBoq4Lbi32

with an end sign:
https://goo.gl/maps/Qb9s8PdwPWn

Wow, I've never seen something like that. Which makes sense, because I've never been out that way. But WSDOT has been open to shoulder driving for a while now. Started with the "WB" Hwy 16 off-ramp towards Purdy. Now, the 405 has shoulder driving NW of Bothell. I'm not sure when this particular stretch of shoulder driving was put in, but I'd love to see more of them.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on June 21, 2017, 06:37:19 PM
Do you like it? Hate it? Do it yourself?

What are your thoughts on making and enforcing a law "keep right except to pass"? In countries such as Sweden, such a law already exists in the form of "no passing on the right". If you want to pass someone who is in the left lane, you flash them and wait until they get over.

Swedish drivers do something else that I like (on Super-2 highways  and on 2-lane undivided rural arterials - they will move onto the shoulder (when  available, and it  is not always there) to let faster traffic by.

This is not just on long uphills either.

I've seen this in Canada and Mexico, too. Tried it in the USA to let someone past and it baffled her.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Rothman on June 21, 2017, 07:57:19 PM
You have to put your hand out the window and wave them by in the U.S.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: bmorrill on June 21, 2017, 09:14:11 PM

Swedish drivers do something else that I like (on Super-2 highways  and on 2-lane undivided rural arterials - they will move onto the shoulder (when  available, and it  is not always there) to let faster traffic by.


Commonly seen behavior in West Texas - it's considered to be the courteous thing to do. The State encourages it so long as the shoulder is sufficiently wide to be able to do it safely.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: thenetwork on June 21, 2017, 09:34:15 PM

Swedish drivers do something else that I like (on Super-2 highways  and on 2-lane undivided rural arterials - they will move onto the shoulder (when  available, and it  is not always there) to let faster traffic by.


Commonly seen behavior in West Texas - it's considered to be the courteous thing to do. The State encourages it so long as the shoulder is sufficiently wide to be able to do it safely.

Also in the San Antonio/Corpus Christi area as well.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Jim on June 24, 2017, 01:11:16 PM
Have to say driving down much of I-81 in Virginia yesterday made me think of this thread.  If you want to pass someone going 50 MPH in a 70 MPH zone but don't want to exceed 50.5 MPH yourself, maybe you don't need to pass at all.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on July 19, 2017, 08:36:16 AM
The other day we rode across I-75 (Alligator Alley) roundtrip to Naples. My brother-in-law was driving and he's a left-lane camper, tailgater, and late-braker. I found it more than a little hypocritical when he complained about a left-lane hog doing 75 mph (he had been doing about 90, much to our wives' displeasure)—it seems to me that when you've been parked in the left lane for the past 50 miles even though you could have moved over when you weren't passing anyone, you kind of lose standing to complain.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 7/8 on July 19, 2017, 09:12:58 AM
I drove with my friend down to Indianapolis on Canada Day weekend (July 1st weekend), and we took turns for the drive. My biggest pet peeve with him is that he's a left-lane camper. He'll see a truck a mile a way and think that justifies him being in the left lane, even though he's only going a few mph faster than the truck! (and someone is already behind him waiting to pass) :pan:

On the way to Indianapolis, he said that he hates when people flash their lights at him to move over, and that he'll purposely speed up to block people from passing after they do that. I was surprised that he would say this, since I don't see anything offensive about flashing your headlights.

On the way back, I was driving I-70 in Eastern IN and was behind a slower driver after we both passed a truck. After waiting a minute, I flashed my headlights to ask them to move over. My friend immediately turns to me and says "did you just flash your headlights" like I committed a crime! I told him that I think it's safer and more polite than passing on the right. And sure enough, the car moved over to let me pass. He didn't say anything after that :-D

One more thing, I found it hypocritical how for the headlight thing, he said he doesn't mind passing others on the right when he needs to, but almost everytime someone passed him on the right, he would curse at them :confused:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: LM117 on July 19, 2017, 11:41:09 AM
Don't pass left lane campers in Goldsboro, NC unless you want to take a cough syrup bottle to the face. I love it when my hometown stays classy. :rolleyes:

http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/ (http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/)

Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: ekt8750 on July 19, 2017, 12:11:08 PM
Don't pass left lane campers in Goldsboro, NC unless you want to take a cough syrup bottle to the face. I love it when my hometown stays classy. :rolleyes:

http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/ (http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/)

She was clearly under the influence of the contents of said cough syrup bottle. What a bitch.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on July 19, 2017, 12:28:34 PM
Don't pass left lane campers in Goldsboro, NC unless you want to take a cough syrup bottle to the face. I love it when my hometown stays classy. :rolleyes:

http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/ (http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/)

She was clearly under the influence of the contents of said cough syrup bottle. What a bitch.
I wonder if license plate was also reported, or "black Hyundai Sonata" is all that they have...
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 19, 2017, 02:08:14 PM
Don't pass left lane campers in Goldsboro, NC unless you want to take a cough syrup bottle to the face. I love it when my hometown stays classy. :rolleyes:

http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/ (http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/)

She was clearly under the influence of the contents of said cough syrup bottle. What a bitch.
I wonder if license plate was also reported, or "black Hyundai Sonata" is all that they have...

I always tell people - get the license plate number.  That mean so much more than general descriptions of a car.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: LM117 on July 19, 2017, 03:12:11 PM
Don't pass left lane campers in Goldsboro, NC unless you want to take a cough syrup bottle to the face. I love it when my hometown stays classy. :rolleyes:

http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/ (http://www.newsargus.com/news/archives/2017/07/18/driver_struck_by_cough_syrup_bottle/)

She was clearly under the influence of the contents of said cough syrup bottle. What a bitch.
I wonder if license plate was also reported, or "black Hyundai Sonata" is all that they have...

That was my first thought as well. I would hope the guy had enough sense to get the plate number. I can handle someone cussing at me, but when someone starts throwing shit at me, Mr. Nice Guy goes bye-bye. :ninja:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: rte66man on July 19, 2017, 04:21:31 PM
Oklahoma's new left lane blocker law to take effect November 1:

http://www.news9.com/story/35852883/my-2-cents-new-left-lane-passing-law-to-go-into-effect-nov-1

Quote
Finally, the left lane of Interstate 35, Interstate 40, the turnpikes in Oklahoma might actually be used for what they were designed for -- getting around slower vehicles.
At some point, everyone who has a driver's license is aware that the left lane is for passing, but almost as certainly 50 percent of them, at least here in Oklahoma, will forget that rule and choose the left lane for their pleasure cruise.

Who can blame them, it's usually a smoother surface, because of course, the rest of us know the rule and spend most of our time wearing out the right lane.

But finally the Legislature has given the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and others a law they can actually enforce.

Right now, you can pass in the left lane and stay there if nobody is behind you, but in my mind that gives a motorist way to much wiggle room to linger in the passing lane.   

The law, which takes effect November 1, says you can get in the left lane to pass and when you have get back over in the right lane. That's cut and dried and should lead to less road rage on the highways.

And by the way, getting pulled over for hovering in the left lane can get you a ticket for $235.

I'm Kelly Ogle and that's My 2 Cents.

My daughter got a ticket from the City of Edmond 2 years ago on I-35 between Covell and Waterloo.  She pulled out to pass a truck and stayed in the left lane to pass another truck about 1/2 mile ahead.  That ticket cost her $175.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on July 19, 2017, 08:18:23 PM
My daughter got a ticket from the City of Edmond 2 years ago on I-35 between Covell and Waterloo.  She pulled out to pass a truck and stayed in the left lane to pass another truck about 1/2 mile ahead.  That ticket cost her $175.

1/2 mile ahead? That's quite a long ways. I have no idea how to do the math, but if she was only going a little faster than the truck, it's going to be several minutes before she catches up. That's plenty of time to get back over, and let whatever traffic approached from behind, pass.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on July 19, 2017, 09:06:23 PM
Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?

A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him

None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on July 20, 2017, 12:10:01 PM
Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.

That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2017, 12:12:22 PM
Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.

That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.

In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on July 20, 2017, 12:17:13 PM
OK, to put some more gas in this dying flame:
there is another thread about zipper merge, where one of common arguments is "using all available pavement"
How does that correlate with "do not use left lane for normal driving" philosophy?
For example, quote from that thread ( http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18745 ):
Bullshit.  As soon as we're past the merge point around here, traffic speeds up.  The merge point IS the blockage point around Chicago.

Seconded. Anytime I've gone thru the Zoo Interchange construction zone zipper, traffic has sped up once we were out of the zipper.

But if traffic merges too quickly into one lane, it's going to slow down. Cars cannot all universally react to a merge. Most react by braking to create a safe following distance, but that creates a chain reaction of braking, inevitably creating another slowdown. A safe gap to you, may not be a safe gap to the car behind you.

Rather than have multiple merge points, with multiple reactionary braking points, it's better just to have one. Use all the available lane space.

To make things worse, I'll quote one of articles linked here:
Quote
Who can blame them, it's usually a smoother surface, because of course, the rest of us know the rule and spend most of our time wearing out the right lane.
So, apparently, author believes right-lane-no-matter-what non-uniformly increases road wear, increases car wear, and reduces road maintenance intervals (although all that is probably wrong)
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on July 20, 2017, 12:58:23 PM
Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.

That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.

In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.

I think I remember reading that there's at least one, in the southeast somewhere (North Carolina maybe?).
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Rothman on July 20, 2017, 03:02:33 PM
Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.

That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.

In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.

I think I remember reading that there's at least one, in the southeast somewhere (North Carolina maybe?).
I thought passing on the right was considered aggressive driving in Maryland?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on July 20, 2017, 04:22:48 PM
Does this board define left lane hogging as travelling at less than the speed limit in the extreme left hand lane or as travelling at less than the speed of traffic?
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.

That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.

In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.
I gave a definition. I didn't state that the actions of other drivers had to be legal. I didn't state that "Left Lane Hogging" was illegal (It is in California, and the definition is close to what I have defined). I just defined the term as it is and ought to be used.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on July 20, 2017, 04:38:43 PM
OK, to put some more gas in this dying flame:
there is another thread about zipper merge, where one of common arguments is "using all available pavement"
How does that correlate with "do not use left lane for normal driving" philosophy?

Two different scenarios. "Use all available pavement" applies when traffic is heavy. "Keep right except to pass" applies when traffic is light.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on July 20, 2017, 07:11:37 PM
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.
That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.
In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.
I gave a definition. I didn't state that the actions of other drivers had to be legal. I didn't state that "Left Lane Hogging" was illegal (It is in California, and the definition is close to what I have defined). I just defined the term as it is and ought to be used.

Then that is just your opinion.  Anyone can have an opinion on any side of an issue.  A good starting point IMHO is with the coded laws of the respective state as to what has been debated by the general assembly and passed into law.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on July 21, 2017, 09:40:54 PM
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.
That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.
In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.
I gave a definition. I didn't state that the actions of other drivers had to be legal. I didn't state that "Left Lane Hogging" was illegal (It is in California, and the definition is close to what I have defined). I just defined the term as it is and ought to be used.

Then that is just your opinion.  Anyone can have an opinion on any side of an issue.  A good starting point IMHO is with the coded laws of the respective state as to what has been debated by the general assembly and passed into law.

Just a couple of quotes from the CVC should strengthen my position:


California Vehicle code
Section 21654
a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation of subdivision (a) of this section.
(c) The Department of Transportation, with respect to state highways, and local authorities, with respect to highways under their jurisdiction, may place and maintain upon highways official signs directing slow-moving traffic to use the right-hand traffic lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or preparing for a left turn.

Section 21656.  On a two-lane highway where passing is unsafe because of traffic in the opposite direction or other conditions, any vehicle proceeding upon the highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in line, shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway, or wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists, in order to permit the vehicles following it to proceed.

Section 21753.  Except when passing on the right is permitted, the driver of an overtaken vehicle shall safely move to the right-hand side of the highway in favor of the overtaking vehicle after an audible signal or a momentary flash of headlights by the overtaking vehicle, and shall not increase the speed of his or her vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle. This section does not require the driver of an overtaken vehicle to drive on the shoulder of the highway in order to allow the overtaking vehicle to pass.

Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 21, 2017, 10:48:18 PM
Quote
I think I remember reading that there's at least one, in the southeast somewhere (North Carolina maybe?).

Quote
I thought passing on the right was considered aggressive driving in Maryland?

Neither are true. To show why: Let's say a car decides to do 50 mph in the left lane. Does that mean the entire highway becomes jammed until that person speeds up or exits?

Sadly, it does happen on occasion where someone going well below the limit drives the left lane.

Also, we have several people as members in those states. No doubt they would be familiar with such limiting laws if they existed.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Takumi on July 21, 2017, 10:52:51 PM
While driving to Richmond on I-95 northbound yesterday, the VMS's said "slower traffic keep right / fines higher" and "left lane is for passing only, not cruising" or something to R hat effect.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 12:12:01 AM
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.
That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.
In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.
I gave a definition. I didn't state that the actions of other drivers had to be legal. I didn't state that "Left Lane Hogging" was illegal (It is in California, and the definition is close to what I have defined). I just defined the term as it is and ought to be used.
Then that is just your opinion.  Anyone can have an opinion on any side of an issue.  A good starting point IMHO is with the coded laws of the respective state as to what has been debated by the general assembly and passed into law.
Just a couple of quotes from the CVC should strengthen my position:
California Vehicle code

All that does is cite what one state does.  There are 50 states.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on July 22, 2017, 05:05:27 AM
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.
That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.
In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.
I gave a definition. I didn't state that the actions of other drivers had to be legal. I didn't state that "Left Lane Hogging" was illegal (It is in California, and the definition is close to what I have defined). I just defined the term as it is and ought to be used.
Then that is just your opinion.  Anyone can have an opinion on any side of an issue.  A good starting point IMHO is with the coded laws of the respective state as to what has been debated by the general assembly and passed into law.
Just a couple of quotes from the CVC should strengthen my position:
California Vehicle code

All that does is cite what one state does.  There are 50 states.

So? There are 56 or 57 separate state-entitled jurisdictions in the US and another 250 or so nation-entitled jurisdictions in the world. Just because you can count stars on a flag doesn't give you moral authority to deny the definition. If you don't like my definition or California's laws, feel free to give an alternate credible definition or propose how you would like the law to read. That's the purpose of a forum!
I gave my definition of "Left Lane Hogging". I gave it as a model for what is certainly is annoying driving behavior and what a jurisdiction might reasonably choose to prohibit. In fact, at least one jurisdiction *HAS* chosen to prohibit approximately what I defined and in a rather obvious way.
... and yes, California is only one state in one country. But it has about 20% of the cars in the US. There are probably more licensed drivers in California than there are *PEOPLE* in Texas. ... and probably more registered vehicles in California that there are PEOPLE in Texas and Florida combined. Now, California would do well to adopt 130 km/h (or 80 or 85MPH) speed limits in areas where it is safe (as Texas has), but  it does a number of things right as far as driving is concerned (like making every effort to separate truck traffic from auto traffic whenever possible). As a state, we learned how to drive before everyone else. In fact, the condition of our roads shows it in a lot of cases.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 07:33:18 AM
While driving to Richmond on I-95 northbound yesterday, the VMS's said "slower traffic keep right / fines higher" and "left lane is for passing only, not cruising" or something to R hat effect.

There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: LM117 on July 22, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.

Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 12:03:59 PM
Just a couple of quotes from the CVC should strengthen my position:
California Vehicle code
All that does is cite what one state does.  There are 50 states.
So? There are 56 or 57 separate state-entitled jurisdictions in the US and another 250 or so nation-entitled jurisdictions in the world. Just because you can count stars on a flag doesn't give you moral authority to deny the definition. If you don't like my definition or California's laws, feel free to give an alternate credible definition or propose how you would like the law to read. That's the purpose of a forum!
I gave my definition of "Left Lane Hogging". I gave it as a model for what is certainly is annoying driving behavior and what a jurisdiction might reasonably choose to prohibit. In fact, at least one jurisdiction *HAS* chosen to prohibit approximately what I defined and in a rather obvious way.
... and yes, California is only one state in one country. But it has about 20% of the cars in the US. There are probably more licensed drivers in California than there are *PEOPLE* in Texas. ... and probably more registered vehicles in California that there are PEOPLE in Texas and Florida combined. Now, California would do well to adopt 130 km/h (or 80 or 85MPH) speed limits in areas where it is safe (as Texas has), but  it does a number of things right as far as driving is concerned (like making every effort to separate truck traffic from auto traffic whenever possible). As a state, we learned how to drive before everyone else. In fact, the condition of our roads shows it in a lot of cases.

Well, I live on the other side of the country, and like many people all over the country we have no interest in emulating, in general, California ideas and practices.

I have driven over a million miles in almost 50 years of driving, the bulk of it in the region between Richmond, VA and Philadelphia inclusive, and with significant amounts in central Florida, western New York state, greater Chicago and Los Angeles.

My observations is that there is very little actual "left lane hogging" in the sense of driving slower than the general traffic stream on Interstate highways.

Apparently it is the people who want to drive 20 to 25 miles or more over the speed limit that encounters these "obstacles" in the left lane, in actuality other drivers that are legitimately using the left lane.  I have no sympathy for this attitude.

I have cited the true problem of "middle lane hogging".  That is on 6-lane (3 each way) Interstates where drivers going 5 to 10 mph or more below the speed limit camp out in the middle lane, apparently thinking that it is OK because they are not in the inner lane.  In heavy traffic this causes congestion as traffic has to slow down and flow around these jerks.  BTW, flashing headlights or horn and hand signals rarely get these drivers to get over into the right lane.  These are not cases where pavement conditions in the right lane have anything to do with it.  This problem is quite common.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 02:05:09 PM
I have no problem with him citing California law as the basis for his opinions. It makes sense that if he's from California, he'd be most familiar with their rules. I do have a problem with the way many people from California (I've seen this on other discussion sites as well) seem to think their state's definition is THE definition, such as the post above that says "as it is and ought to be used."

I'm typing this at the train station in Sanford. Driving up Florida's Turnpike today we kept encountering the types of drivers I regard as the bigger problem than the left-lane hogs—the people who are determined to try to impose their preferred speed on everyone else in both lanes. I'm anything but a left-lane hog. I spent most of the trip in the right lane going 75 and when I'd pass, I'd speed up if needed and I always get back over. As usual down here, lots of other people don't move back over. There are an awful lot of people who, when they get frustrated with the left lane traffic, will try to pass on the right and will proceed to tailgate people like me. I don't understand the point of that. I'm in the right lane. Why should I speed up just because the guy behind me wants to get past the guy in the left lane? I know it's frustrating, but I'm the one doing the right thing.

On a semi-related note, my wife's new car has radar-based adaptive cruise control. Older radar detectors must get fooled by it because several times people passing us abruptly slowed when no cops were anywhere around.  :-D
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on July 22, 2017, 02:23:08 PM
On a semi-related note, my wife's new car has radar-based adaptive cruise control. Older radar detectors must get fooled by it because several times people passing us abruptly slowed when no cops were anywhere around.  :-D

I really, really want to like these new adaptive cruise systems. But it seems like the closest distance you're allowed to follow at (at least in the last car I drove with it, a Toyota Highlander) is still many car lengths back. We kept getting cut off, over and over again, and we could sense a large amount of annoyance from drivers behind us (we were in the right lane, FWIW).

Jeremy Clarkson demonstrated adaptive cruise several years ago when he was racing the Jaguar XJ against the sun. He showed the closest distance as being no more than two car lengths away from the car in front (dubbed the "Full Audi" (https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aYbnwvw_700b.jpg)). But I think he was just playing around and not using cruise, because I've never seen an adaptive cruise system that lets you follow at 3-4 car lengths (what I consider normal following distance here in Seattle).
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 03:19:23 PM
Ours lets you change the following distance and I shortened it somewhat. Still need to play with it some more outside of urban areas. What is taking time to adjust to is planning ahead for when it's likely to brake versus when I might want to prepare to pass someone such that I'm better off hitting the "cancel" button.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on July 22, 2017, 06:12:20 PM
My observations is that there is very little actual "left lane hogging" in the sense of driving slower than the general traffic stream on Interstate highways.

Apparently it is the people who want to drive 20 to 25 miles or more over the speed limit that encounters these "obstacles" in the left lane, in actuality other drivers that are legitimately using the left lane.  I have no sympathy for this attitude.
I have seen people being an obstacle in the left lane of the Thruway as little as 5 mph over (which is itself often well below the speed of traffic on that road).

Ours lets you change the following distance and I shortened it somewhat. Still need to play with it some more outside of urban areas. What is taking time to adjust to is planning ahead for when it's likely to brake versus when I might want to prepare to pass someone such that I'm better off hitting the "cancel" button.
And these reasons are exactly why I'm glad I don't have this "feature" on my Civic.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 06:57:25 PM
The adaptive cruise was kinda cool on the way south last week. We hit a work zone north of Fort Pierce and the speed limit dropped from 70 to 60. I had the cruise control set at 70 or 75 and the guy ahead of us slowed to 60. Our car did the same and held 60 all the way through the work zone (in the right lane) without my doing anything, and then it sped right back up after we emerged from the work zone and the guy sped up. Pretty neat.

What I am a little concerned about is whether it would be dangerous to use when there are tailgaters around. If someone cuts abruptly in front of you at close range, the system can brake fairly hard.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on July 22, 2017, 07:42:56 PM
I find the comments about adaptive cruise control interesting:  I have been wondering if such systems universally include a mechanism for adjusting following distance, and if so, what the limits of adjustment are.  It would be desirable to set a following distance equal in seconds to 9% of the speed limit in mph, to keep the car out of stone chip range.

The strategy an adaptive cruise control system uses to renew following distance after a car cuts in also matters.  Ideally it should drop back by coasting or by holding speed as the other vehicle pulls away, unless the vehicle in front brakes heavily, in which case it should also be able to operate the brakes.  To do this effectively, it should have the ability to check change of speed as well as speed and position of the vehicle in front.  A system of this kind would be fairly well foolproofed against tailgaters as long as the following distance was set to a fairly high value, though high-level driver supervision would still be necessary to cope with abrupt slowdowns that are too far ahead to be visible to the system, and it is still desirable to observe a longer-than-usual following distance when being tailgated.

I know of no good solution to the middle-lane crawling problem, which basically results from the interaction of congestion on both mainline and ramp.

As for the left-lane camping question in the OP, I take the view that use of the left lane is governed by a social contract.  I will complete an overtake at a speed differential that is as generous as I think is safe, and once I am done, I will return to the right-hand lane (unless there are other slower vehicles in my following-distance envelope that I will also attempt to pass).  In return, you wait your turn, and do not honk at me, flash lights at me, or try to slalom around me if I hang back at what I think is a safe following distance as the person in front of me finishes his or her overtake.

I also try to follow a no-platooning policy.  If I am on a two-lane road, traffic is stacking behind me, and the shoulder is clear, free of debris, and reasonably wide, I will move onto it and coast to let traffic past.  However, if I am on a freeway where applying the no-platooning policy would mean giving up my place in a queue of overtaking vehicles, I will usually consider it only if there is a workable solution--such as setting my cruise control several mph below the prevailing speed of traffic--that does not unduly disadvantage me in terms of forward visibility.  I don't like spending long freeway drives staring at the backs of eighteen-wheelers.

I know my limits in terms of alertness, response time, and appetite for risk, so I won't trim headways purely for the sake of not taking up more than an abstractly conceived fair share of roadspace.  If this makes me obnoxious to other drivers under bad LOS conditions, so be it:  my central preoccupation is remaining both mobile and accident-free.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 08:21:04 PM
I know of no good solution to the middle-lane crawling problem, which basically results from the interaction of congestion on both mainline and ramp.

Not in the situations where I find it most problematic, rural 6-lane Interstates where interchanges average about 5 miles apart, and where the right lane is not experiencing any major congestion at that point.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on July 22, 2017, 08:49:42 PM
I know of no good solution to the middle-lane crawling problem, which basically results from the interaction of congestion on both mainline and ramp.

Not in the situations where I find it most problematic, rural 6-lane Interstates where interchanges average about 5 miles apart, and where the right lane is not experiencing any major congestion at that point.

If there is congestion, it's not crawling. It's trying not to hit someone and not to be hit. I think that, at some point, driver training pointed out the advantages of using the middle lane of three whenever possible (but that was one one-way streets with permitted left turns). It keeps you out of the right lane where people are entering and exiting and out of the left lane where people are passing. But, in rural situations such as described, the right lane is a perfectly good driving lane except for about 5% of the ride. So, people should use it, especially, if they are going to crawl. But, if the problem is that people are concentrating on something besides driving and it requires that they slow down to keep both things under control, maybe they should get off the road, do whatever commands their attention, and them get back on the road and drive at normal speed. They would probably get to their destinations sooner, safer, with both things accomplished, and wouldn't cause a nuisance to the rest of the traffic.

In a couple decades, I am sure that we will be expecting the car to take care of things while we are no more than passengers. People wishing to enjoy Fahrvergnügen will have to go to closed roadways. I am glad that by then, I will be one of those old guys who takes my old '22 Jetta (one of the last production "full gas" cars ever made) out to the driving track on Wednesday mornings. Until then, dividing attention is just not cool!
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on July 22, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
What's a "full gas" car?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1 on July 22, 2017, 09:11:08 PM
What's a "full gas" car?

From what I can tell, the Jetta did not start production until 1979, and "full gas car" is not an existing phrase. It may be a future prediction where 2022 is the last year that there will be cars that are not electric or hybrids.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 09:14:42 PM
I know of no good solution to the middle-lane crawling problem, which basically results from the interaction of congestion on both mainline and ramp.
Not in the situations where I find it most problematic, rural 6-lane Interstates where interchanges average about 5 miles apart, and where the right lane is not experiencing any major congestion at that point.
If there is congestion, it's not crawling. It's trying not to hit someone and not to be hit. I think that, at some point, driver training pointed out the advantages of using the middle lane of three whenever possible (but that was one one-way streets with permitted left turns). It keeps you out of the right lane where people are entering and exiting and out of the left lane where people are passing. But, in rural situations such as described, the right lane is a perfectly good driving lane except for about 5% of the ride. So, people should use it, especially, if they are going to crawl.

I was talking about situations where they are going 5 to 10 mph or more below the speed limit in the middle lane.  Maybe I should have made it clear that there was no impediment to them going the speed limit in the middle lane, in these cases that I am complaining about.  Also not near an interchange, they do this mile after mile after mile.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on July 23, 2017, 12:54:46 AM
What's a "full gas" car?

From what I can tell, the Jetta did not start production until 1979, and "full gas car" is not an existing phrase. It may be a future prediction where 2022 is the last year that there will be cars that are not electric or hybrids.
I was speaking futuristically for 2045. So, "'22" is 2022. My term "full gas car" is one that runs on gasoline and is no part electric, solar, or dilithium crystals.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Buffaboy on July 23, 2017, 02:34:02 AM
The 65 MPH speed limit on the Thruway enables drivers to haul ass doing 75-80 in the left lane on straight and slightly curved sections of highway.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Bickendan on July 23, 2017, 03:48:28 AM
The Thruway is underposted at 65. It should be 70 or 75.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: ekt8750 on July 23, 2017, 11:31:28 AM
The Thruway is underposted at 65. It should be 70 or 75.

But posted just right for state fundraising efforts. :spin:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on July 23, 2017, 01:12:42 PM
There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.

Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

I don't, for a fact, know much about Virginia's enforcement tendencies, but it would seem to me that a little bit of enforcement of KRETP laws (or other useful traffic blocking laws) would aid in revenue enforcement. It would give those who intend to speed a clear path to do so.
Officer Hotpencil: Do you know how many drivers who wanted to speed you kept me from citing today?
Motorist Slowpoke: I'm sorry, officer! Can you let me off with a warning?
Officer Hotpencil: Sorry, Ma'am. I can't do that. You probably cost the state at least $1000 in fines.
Motorist Slowpoke: I just didn't think it was safe to go any faster while I was texting, putting in my contacts, and shooting up. ... and you know how dangerous the right lane is ....
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on July 23, 2017, 02:27:28 PM
There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

That's baloney any way you slice it.

Been driving almost 40 years in this state, and never stopped for 5 to 7 miles over the limit.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: LM117 on July 23, 2017, 02:51:12 PM
There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

That's baloney any way you slice it.

Been driving almost 40 years in this state, and never stopped for 5 to 7 miles over the limit.

I don't care if you believe it or not. It's happened in my area. I know several people here who've gotten nailed for less than 10 over. It's not rampant like Emporia and Hopewell, but it does happen time to time while more serious offenses often go unpunished.

If you've never been stopped, then good for you.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on July 23, 2017, 03:03:40 PM
Now, what about states that have an exemption for keeping right except to pass on highways with three or more lanes?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on July 23, 2017, 05:27:49 PM
What's a "full gas" car?

From what I can tell, the Jetta did not start production until 1979, and "full gas car" is not an existing phrase. It may be a future prediction where 2022 is the last year that there will be cars that are not electric or hybrids.
I was speaking futuristically for 2045. So, "'22" is 2022. My term "full gas car" is one that runs on gasoline and is no part electric, solar, or dilithium crystals.
Oh.  I thought you meant 1922 and referred to some classic car you already owned!
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on July 23, 2017, 08:11:03 PM
There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:
That's baloney any way you slice it.
Been driving almost 40 years in this state, and never stopped for 5 to 7 miles over the limit.
I don't care if you believe it or not. It's happened in my area. I know several people here who've gotten nailed for less than 10 over. It's not rampant like Emporia and Hopewell, but it does happen time to time while more serious offenses often go unpunished.
If you've never been stopped, then good for you.

What other infraction(s) were they committing?  If speed was the only thing then excepting the occasional rogue cop they would not be stopped for what you said.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 23, 2017, 10:51:53 PM
There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

That's baloney any way you slice it.

Been driving almost 40 years in this state, and never stopped for 5 to 7 miles over the limit.

I don't care if you believe it or not. It's happened in my area. I know several people here who've gotten nailed for less than 10 over. It's not rampant like Emporia and Hopewell, but it does happen time to time while more serious offenses often go unpunished.

If you've never been stopped, then good for you.

Some small towns do stop people for a little over the limit, although 3 over and "under 10 over" is a bit of a difference. And I wouldn't say that's all of VA as you're eluding to, as most of us know just stay under 80 and we're fine.

What are the other more serious infractions that you believe are being ignored?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: LM117 on July 24, 2017, 11:53:29 AM
There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

That's baloney any way you slice it.

Been driving almost 40 years in this state, and never stopped for 5 to 7 miles over the limit.

I don't care if you believe it or not. It's happened in my area. I know several people here who've gotten nailed for less than 10 over. It's not rampant like Emporia and Hopewell, but it does happen time to time while more serious offenses often go unpunished.

If you've never been stopped, then good for you.

Some small towns do stop people for a little over the limit, although 3 over and "under 10 over" is a bit of a difference. And I wouldn't say that's all of VA as you're eluding to, as most of us know just stay under 80 and we're fine.

I'm well aware that not every town/city in VA is anal about speeding, but as a whole, VA is usually stricter than neighboring states, especially NC. I lived in Farmville from 2009-2011 and there's never been a problem.

Quote
What are the other more serious infractions that you believe are being ignored?

The first one that comes to mind is one SUV that pulled out in front of me on VA-41. The driver was playing with her phone not paying any attention and pulled out in front of me at an intersection (she had the stop sign). I had to slam my brakes to keep from hitting her. One of Pittsylvania County's finest saw it and just sat there. I've been in the area since 2011 and there were several instances of people playing on their phones not paying attention, or think that stop signs are just suggestions. Piney Forest Road (US-29 Business) in Danville is a goddamn free-for-all with little help from the city police. The state police used to run a speed trap on US-29 Business just before getting to Blairs, but they seemed to have backed off lately.

Whether or not anybody believes what I said is their perogative. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it either way. That's all I have to say about it.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: plain on July 24, 2017, 01:23:13 PM
Some small towns do stop people for a little over the limit, although 3 over and "under 10 over" is a bit of a difference. And I wouldn't say that's all of VA as you're eluding to, as most of us know just stay under 80 and we're fine.

Ashland, VA was notorious for this at one point. When I lived in western Hanover County (Montpelier) I was riding with my neighbor through Ashland and he got ticketed for going 39 in a 35 zone (SR 657). My uncle came down from Jersey, rode through town and got ticketed for going 50 in a 45 zone (US 1) smdh Ashland police was terrible
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: hm insulators on July 27, 2017, 01:11:57 PM
There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.

Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

I don't, for a fact, know much about Virginia's enforcement tendencies, but it would seem to me that a little bit of enforcement of KRETP laws (or other useful traffic blocking laws) would aid in revenue enforcement. It would give those who intend to speed a clear path to do so.
Officer Hotpencil: Do you know how many drivers who wanted to speed you kept me from citing today?
Motorist Slowpoke: I'm sorry, officer! Can you let me off with a warning?
Officer Hotpencil: Sorry, Ma'am. I can't do that. You probably cost the state at least $1000 in fines.
Motorist Slowpoke: I just didn't think it was safe to go any faster while I was texting, putting in my contacts, and shooting up. ... and you know how dangerous the right lane is ....

I love it!  :-D :clap: :spin:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: mrsman on August 28, 2017, 08:54:59 AM
From my experience, KREPT  is followed pretty well in southern NJ, especially the southern part of I-295.  NJ does a very good job of posting signs about the law and people for the most part do try to follow it in order to be courteous.

Northern NJ is a lot less courteous and it isn't followed as much despite the signage being displayed regularly.

I feel KREPT would probably be followed more in other states if it were signed regularly along the freeway.

This is similar to left lane camping on escalators.  On many transit systems, the escalator should not be viewed as a ride.   There is an unwritten policy that those who aren't in the mood to walk should stay on the right side and let others pass and walk along the left. I wish that such a rule were signed along the DC Metro system, since there are many clueless tourists who just ride along the left.  Most people will move to the right if you say "excuse me" but if the policy were signed in the first place, then it wouldn't be necessary.

And Metro would never sign such a sign because they would say that they would not want to encourage people walking on the escalator because of liability concerns if someone should slip and fall.  But Metro's escalators (and elevators) are generally very slow, slower than those you would see at a department store.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on August 28, 2017, 09:30:30 AM
KREPT

Did you mean "KRETP" or is that another acronym? I only ask because you used "KREPT" twice so I wasn't sure if it was a typo.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1 on August 28, 2017, 09:42:44 AM
KREPT

Did you mean "KRETP" or is that another acronym? I only ask because you used "KREPT" twice so I wasn't sure if it was a typo.

I thought it was because KREPT is easier to pronounce than KRETP. Sometimes acronyms (usually for company/organization names) intentionally have letters switched so that they are actually pronounceable.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on August 28, 2017, 10:42:25 AM
KREPT

Did you mean "KRETP" or is that another acronym? I only ask because you used "KREPT" twice so I wasn't sure if it was a typo.

I thought it was because KREPT is easier to pronounce than KRETP. Sometimes acronyms (usually for company/organization names) intentionally have letters switched so that they are actually pronounceable.

I usually spell out the acronym as I'm reading it (instead of trying to say KRETP as a word, I will read out the meaning of each letter). Same manner as you might read out FWIW ("for what it's worth") or AFAIK ("as far as I know").

A better acronym (or initialism, whichever it is) might be KREP ("keep right except to pass, since KREPT has the words out of order. As far as I know, acronyms can often use any letter in the word (although most often the first), but each word must be represented in the order pronounced.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on August 28, 2017, 02:56:30 PM
I can't stand it. People constantly riding in the left lane doing the speed limit or just a few miles over it and thinking that they are actually in the right. When I'm driving on an Interstate here in Michigan I'm doing 80 mph no matter what the speed limit is, I don't care if it goes down to 55 mph I'm still doing 80 and if people can't get enough common sense to move over than they must like being tailgated because that's exactly what's going to happen, then get your break and move over to the next lane knowing damn well that the car your passing should be the one in the right lane not you.

If you can't do 80 mph on an Interstate in Michigan then you don't belong on the Interstate.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: tradephoric on August 28, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
I can't stand it. People constantly riding in the left lane doing the speed limit or just a few miles over it and thinking that they are actually in the right. When I'm driving on an Interstate here in Michigan I'm doing 80 mph no matter what the speed limit is, I don't care if it goes down to 55 mph I'm still doing 80 and if people can't get enough common sense to move over than they must like being tailgated because that's exactly what's going to happen, then get your break and move over to the next lane knowing damn well that the car your passing should be the one in the right lane not you.

If you can't do 80 mph on an Interstate in Michigan then you don't belong on the Interstate.

There are plenty of exceptions to the keep right law in Michigan.  Motorists may drive in the left lane if passing, if there is a continuous flow of traffic, if turning left, or if on the freeway (i.e., the "expressway") and there are three or more lanes in one direction.  There are so many antiquated interchanges in Michigan that have left hand exits that require drivers to be in the left-most lane to make their exit... Lodge/I-75; Lodge/I-94; Square Lake/I-75 (being rebuilt this year); Lodge/Davison; I-75/Dixie.  If you are doing 80 mph in the left most lane going SB Lodge approaching the Davison interchange, i hope you at least make sure there's nobody to your immediate right so you can take evasive action when you encounter someone merging onto the freeway at 50 mph.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2017, 01:58:04 PM
I can't stand it. People constantly riding in the left lane doing the speed limit or just a few miles over it and thinking that they are actually in the right. When I'm driving on an Interstate here in Michigan I'm doing 80 mph no matter what the speed limit is, I don't care if it goes down to 55 mph I'm still doing 80 and if people can't get enough common sense to move over than they must like being tailgated because that's exactly what's going to happen, then get your break and move over to the next lane knowing damn well that the car your passing should be the one in the right lane not you.

If you can't do 80 mph on an Interstate in Michigan then you don't belong on the Interstate.

There are plenty of exceptions to the keep right law in Michigan.  Motorists may drive in the left lane if passing, if there is a continuous flow of traffic, if turning left, or if on the freeway (i.e., the "expressway") and there are three or more lanes in one direction.  There are so many antiquated interchanges in Michigan that have left hand exits that require drivers to be in the left-most lane to make their exit... Lodge/I-75; Lodge/I-94; Square Lake/I-75 (being rebuilt this year); Lodge/Davison; I-75/Dixie.  If you are doing 80 mph in the left most lane going SB Lodge approaching the Davison interchange, i hope you at least make sure there's nobody to your immediate right so you can take evasive action when you encounter someone merging onto the freeway at 50 mph.
I would say out of all the one's you mentioned the Lodge/Davison is the worst because many times I've been punching it down the Lodge I'll even do over 80 mph in spots only to have to slow down before the Davison because of 50 mph merging traffic. The I-75/Dixie one at exit 93 is bad too, I think I remember a couple of years ago a really bad accident at that interchange, I'm talking about going from NB Dixie to NB I-75 going towards Flint being the worst part of that interchange, the one on the SB side doesn't seem quite as bad. SB I-75 for some reason makes a dip right there causing the need for those left exits. They really could have designed that exit much better.

The one at I-96 and US-23 has a 35 mph ramp coming from the left lane of US-23 to the left lane of I-96 in both directions.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: GaryV on August 29, 2017, 04:52:20 PM
I can't stand it. People constantly riding in the left lane doing the speed limit or just a few miles over it and thinking that they are actually in the right. When I'm driving on an Interstate here in Michigan I'm doing 80 mph no matter what the speed limit is, I don't care if it goes down to 55 mph I'm still doing 80 and if people can't get enough common sense to move over than they must like being tailgated because that's exactly what's going to happen, then get your break and move over to the next lane knowing damn well that the car your passing should be the one in the right lane not you.

If you can't do 80 mph on an Interstate in Michigan then you don't belong on the Interstate.

There are plenty of exceptions to the keep right law in Michigan.  Motorists may drive in the left lane if passing, if there is a continuous flow of traffic, if turning left, or if on the freeway (i.e., the "expressway") and there are three or more lanes in one direction.  There are so many antiquated interchanges in Michigan that have left hand exits that require drivers to be in the left-most lane to make their exit... Lodge/I-75; Lodge/I-94; Square Lake/I-75 (being rebuilt this year); Lodge/Davison; I-75/Dixie.  If you are doing 80 mph in the left most lane going SB Lodge approaching the Davison interchange, i hope you at least make sure there's nobody to your immediate right so you can take evasive action when you encounter someone merging onto the freeway at 50 mph.
I would say out of all the one's you mentioned the Lodge/Davison is the worst because many times I've been punching it down the Lodge I'll even do over 80 mph in spots only to have to slow down before the Davison because of 50 mph merging traffic. The I-75/Dixie one at exit 93 is bad too, I think I remember a couple of years ago a really bad accident at that interchange, I'm talking about going from NB Dixie to NB I-75 going towards Flint being the worst part of that interchange, the one on the SB side doesn't seem quite as bad. SB I-75 for some reason makes a dip right there causing the need for those left exits. They really could have designed that exit much better.
Yes, a motorcycle policeman was hit and trapped under a trailer, and dragged several miles to his death.  Given the oblique angle of the roads involved, they probably figured they couldn't do a typical cloverleaf or par-clo, and they didn't want to do left turns off Dixie Highway.  The northern intersection of I-75 and Dixie Highway/Saginaw Road (changes name at the county line in the middle of the intersection) at Exit 106 also has left entrances.  That section opened in 1962; presumably they didn't know all the problems of left entrances then.

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The one at I-96 and US-23 has a 35 mph ramp coming from the left lane of US-23 to the left lane of I-96 in both directions.
Not any more.  There still are left lane exits from US-23.  But no left lane entrances.
But why they had to reduce mainline I-96 from 3 lanes to 2 through the interchange ....
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on August 29, 2017, 07:55:08 PM
I can't stand it. People constantly riding in the left lane doing the speed limit or just a few miles over it and thinking that they are actually in the right. When I'm driving on an Interstate here in Michigan I'm doing 80 mph no matter what the speed limit is, I don't care if it goes down to 55 mph I'm still doing 80 and if people can't get enough common sense to move over than they must like being tailgated because that's exactly what's going to happen, then get your break and move over to the next lane knowing damn well that the car your passing should be the one in the right lane not you.

If you can't do 80 mph on an Interstate in Michigan then you don't belong on the Interstate.

There are plenty of exceptions to the keep right law in Michigan.  Motorists may drive in the left lane if passing, if there is a continuous flow of traffic, if turning left, or if on the freeway (i.e., the "expressway") and there are three or more lanes in one direction.  There are so many antiquated interchanges in Michigan that have left hand exits that require drivers to be in the left-most lane to make their exit... Lodge/I-75; Lodge/I-94; Square Lake/I-75 (being rebuilt this year); Lodge/Davison; I-75/Dixie.  If you are doing 80 mph in the left most lane going SB Lodge approaching the Davison interchange, i hope you at least make sure there's nobody to your immediate right so you can take evasive action when you encounter someone merging onto the freeway at 50 mph.
I would say out of all the one's you mentioned the Lodge/Davison is the worst because many times I've been punching it down the Lodge I'll even do over 80 mph in spots only to have to slow down before the Davison because of 50 mph merging traffic. The I-75/Dixie one at exit 93 is bad too, I think I remember a couple of years ago a really bad accident at that interchange, I'm talking about going from NB Dixie to NB I-75 going towards Flint being the worst part of that interchange, the one on the SB side doesn't seem quite as bad. SB I-75 for some reason makes a dip right there causing the need for those left exits. They really could have designed that exit much better.
Yes, a motorcycle policeman was hit and trapped under a trailer, and dragged several miles to his death.  Given the oblique angle of the roads involved, they probably figured they couldn't do a typical cloverleaf or par-clo, and they didn't want to do left turns off Dixie Highway.  The northern intersection of I-75 and Dixie Highway/Saginaw Road (changes name at the county line in the middle of the intersection) at Exit 106 also has left entrances.  That section opened in 1962; presumably they didn't know all the problems of left entrances then.

Quote
The one at I-96 and US-23 has a 35 mph ramp coming from the left lane of US-23 to the left lane of I-96 in both directions.
Not any more.  There still are left lane exits from US-23.  But no left lane entrances.
But why they had to reduce mainline I-96 from 3 lanes to 2 through the interchange ....
Yup that's what happened. And I'm pretty familiar with exit 106 on the Genesee/Oakland county line the only non-left ramp at that exit is the northbound off ramp onto Saginaw Road. The design of that exit isn't too bad though but still has the left ramps.

And I forgot that they rebuilt the I-96/US-23 interchange like that. Going from three lanes to two reminds me of the interchange where I-94 becomes the Dan Ryan in Chicago, goes from three lanes on the Bishop Ford, down to two lanes through the curve, then becomes the massive Dan Ryan Expressway. I-96 though doesn't narrow down to four lanes until M-59 so that really puzzles me why they built it like that.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Quillz on August 29, 2017, 11:08:36 PM
I do try to stay in the right lane as much as possible, but on urban freeways where you've got exits every so often, it can get annoying have to slow down for oncoming traffic. So I generally try to use the middle lane as much as possible, it usually works out well for me. If I do use the left lane extensively, it's usually for long-distance travel where I know I'm not going to be getting off for a while. And I'm usually well above the speed limit because I have to be. The other day, had to do around 85 just to keep up with the flow of traffic, despite a 60 mph speed limit.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on August 30, 2017, 01:03:35 AM
I do try to stay in the right lane as much as possible, but on urban freeways where you've got exits every so often, it can get annoying have to slow down for oncoming traffic. So I generally try to use the middle lane as much as possible, it usually works out well for me. If I do use the left lane extensively, it's usually for long-distance travel where I know I'm not going to be getting off for a while. And I'm usually well above the speed limit because I have to be. The other day, had to do around 85 just to keep up with the flow of traffic, despite a 60 mph speed limit.
I do that quite often on I-75 between Saginaw and Flint. Cars will be doing the speed limit or a little under the speed limit, it's four lanes in each direction though so if I'm in the left lane in that stretch I'm doing 85 mph I can back down to 80 once I hit I-475.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: plain on October 31, 2017, 01:32:03 AM
Another question I frequently ponder (probably because I can't drive five freeway miles without encountering this): Who is worse, the left lane camper, or the tailgater?

As much as I despise left lane campers, Tailgaters are much, MUCH worse.. they're just wrecks waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on October 31, 2017, 08:46:39 AM
Another question I frequently ponder (probably because I can't drive five freeway miles without encountering this): Who is worse, the left lane camper, or the tailgater?

As much as I despise left lane campers, Tailgaters are much, MUCH worse.. they're just wrecks waiting to happen.
An other way to ask - Who is worse, the left lane camper, or "keep right no matter what" driver turning others into tailgaters by moving right at less than a safe distance?
Upstream in this thread, later was deemed acceptable...
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on October 31, 2017, 09:11:47 AM
Regarding moving back over at a safe distance, I'm wondering whether they still teach the technique of ensuring you can see both headlights on the vehicle you're passing in your rearview mirror before you move back over. That was standard instruction when I learned to drive, but when I mentioned it recently I was told I was showing my age.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on October 31, 2017, 09:23:40 AM
Regarding moving back over at a safe distance, I'm wondering whether they still teach the technique of ensuring you can see both headlights on the vehicle you're passing in your rearview mirror before you move back over. That was standard instruction when I learned to drive, but when I mentioned it recently I was told I was showing my age.
I was told "entire front of the car", not "both headlights" - which should be essentially the same. 
But thinking about it, this is way too close for a highway - and this distance doesn't depend in speed: my mirror is 10" wide, car is under 6', and mirror to eye is about 2'. That translates into mere 15' of distance.. Were mirrors smaller back then?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 31, 2017, 09:30:13 AM
Another question I frequently ponder (probably because I can't drive five freeway miles without encountering this): Who is worse, the left lane camper, or the tailgater?

As much as I despise left lane campers, Tailgaters are much, MUCH worse.. they're just wrecks waiting to happen.

They're both at fault.  Someone shouldn't be tailgating, but that person is probably tailgating when someone else is driving too slow in front of them.  If the left lane camper wasn't in the left lane, the other person wouldn't be tailgating.

Regarding moving back over at a safe distance, I'm wondering whether they still teach the technique of ensuring you can see both headlights on the vehicle you're passing in your rearview mirror before you move back over. That was standard instruction when I learned to drive, but when I mentioned it recently I was told I was showing my age.
I was told "entire front of the car", not "both headlights" - which should be essentially the same. 
But thinking about it, this is way too close for a highway - and this distance doesn't depend in speed: my mirror is 10" wide, car is under 6', and mirror to eye is about 2'. That translates into mere 15' of distance.. Were mirrors smaller back then?

I learned the 2 headlights in the mirror technique as well.

As far as your calculations go though, I think some of it has to do with your seating position as well.  15' of distance is roughly a little longer than a standard skip line which can be about 10 - 12 feet.  There's definitely more room than that between me and the other car in the next lane over once I can see both their headlights.

Then again, if you're moving at a reasonably faster pace than the car you're passing, by the time you pass them, see their headlights or front of their car, and turn on your signal, you're still supposed to wait 100 feet prior to merging, which increases the distance between you and the passed vehicle.  Note...I'm not saying you'll be another 100 feet in front of them because they're still moving, but you'll still have some extra distance.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on October 31, 2017, 09:52:43 AM
Another way to ask - Who is worse, the left lane camper, or "keep right no matter what" driver turning others into tailgaters by moving right at less than a safe distance?

Upstream in this thread, later was deemed acceptable...

I think I said that was my preference, in line with a general expectation to be "held harmless" when other people undertake discretionary overtaking maneuvers.  However, I don't think this sentiment was universally shared.

If a person passes me and then cuts back in front of me, I will often disengage cruise control, let my speed drop by as much as 10 mph while I "row back" to restore an acceptable following distance, and then speed back up and re-engage cruise control.  I am usually the only person I see on the road doing this.

Regarding moving back over at a safe distance, I'm wondering whether they still teach the technique of ensuring you can see both headlights on the vehicle you're passing in your rearview mirror before you move back over. That was standard instruction when I learned to drive, but when I mentioned it recently I was told I was showing my age.

I am not that far from your age and I don't think it was ever taught when I was learning to drive, admittedly in a city with far less congestion.  This particular rule of thumb still leaves too little space, so I wouldn't apply it except in cases where the overtaking vehicle is going considerably faster than the overtaken vehicle but is being tailgated by another would-be overtaker and wishes to move right ASAP to remove the temptation for the tailgater to slalom.

My personal preference is to redevelop at least a standard two-second following distance before I move back over.  At highway speeds I would like to do at least four seconds (per AAA's Sportsmanlike Driving).
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on October 31, 2017, 10:22:18 AM
Another way to ask - Who is worse, the left lane camper, or "keep right no matter what" driver turning others into tailgaters by moving right at less than a safe distance?

Upstream in this thread, later was deemed acceptable...

I think I said that was my preference, in line with a general expectation to be "held harmless" when other people undertake discretionary overtaking maneuvers.  However, I don't think this sentiment was universally shared.
From my on-road experience, cutting off to keep right no matter what is a very common behavior. I believe it is second worst highway offense, right after driving with high beams in dense traffic.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on October 31, 2017, 10:51:50 AM
I've been wondering recently how others define a left lane camper. Here's my definition:
Left Lane Camper (n): A driver who fails to move right when there is sufficient space to do so without slowing down, regardless of his/her current speed.

I know some of you must not use that definition, if you don't think Ohio has a lot of these people  :-D



Another question I frequently ponder (probably because I can't drive five freeway miles without encountering this): Who is worse, the left lane camper, or the tailgater?

A left lane dawdler is one who stays in the left lane because he's daydreaming, distracted, or has no clue he's supposed to move over.
A left lane camper is one who stays in the left lane for no good reason, typically because he doesn't feel like having to move left again later.
A left lane hog is one who insists on driving in the far left lane no matter what, everyone else be damned.



Even though I hate left lane dawdlers/campers/hogs, I still say tailgaters are worse.  Tailgaters tend to tailgate even in the absence of a left lane camper—i.e., tailgating in the right lane, or just not being patient enough to let the slower driver complete the passing maneuver.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on November 01, 2017, 07:53:03 AM
An other way to ask - Who is worse, the left lane camper, or "keep right no matter what" driver turning others into tailgaters by moving right at less than a safe distance?
Upstream in this thread, latter was deemed acceptable...

It should be noted that if you passed someone, you are moving at a faster speed than they are. Therefore, all other factors aside, the distance between the two cars will continue to increase. Unless the person moving right cuts in close enough to force the person behind them to brake, which is extremely rare in my experience, there is nothing wrong with moving right as soon as you have completed the pass.
Under no normal circumstances does moving right turn the guy behind you into a tailgater (unless he/she decides to keep up with you, but that's not strictly relevant here).
in your dreams. Often they slow down after a lane change...
What you should really do is to ask a friend with a dashcam to be a passing target for you - and try to look at your driving from outside. Most likely you'll be surprised...
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on November 01, 2017, 01:50:27 PM
An other way to ask - Who is worse, the left lane camper, or "keep right no matter what" driver turning others into tailgaters by moving right at less than a safe distance?
Upstream in this thread, latter was deemed acceptable...

It should be noted that if you passed someone, you are moving at a faster speed than they are. Therefore, all other factors aside, the distance between the two cars will continue to increase. Unless the person moving right cuts in close enough to force the person behind them to brake, which is extremely rare in my experience, there is nothing wrong with moving right as soon as you have completed the pass.
Under no normal circumstances does moving right turn the guy behind you into a tailgater (unless he/she decides to keep up with you, but that's not strictly relevant here).

I agree.  Any unsafe following distance you created by moving right early only increases with every passing second.  And, the more of a difference between your speeds, the more quickly that following distance expands.  And, and, if there was room for you to move right to begin with, then there's generally not any obstruction in that lane to cause you to brake suddenly anyway.  And, and, and, choosing that small sliver of risk over the imminent and apparent risk presented by a tailgater riding your bumper is, IMHO, a wise choice to make.

Now, this is banking on the "normal circumstances" part of your statement.  Obviously, circumstances can be less than normal, but I agree that those are the exception rather than the rule.

Often they slow down after a lane change...

That's annoying, isn't it?  Also annoying are those drivers who dawdle in the left lane while people get impatient behind them, then speed up after moving right so no one can pass each other anyway—leaving everyone behind the now-first car in line still impatient and stuck.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on November 01, 2017, 02:00:19 PM
An other way to ask - Who is worse, the left lane camper, or "keep right no matter what" driver turning others into tailgaters by moving right at less than a safe distance?
Upstream in this thread, latter was deemed acceptable...

It should be noted that if you passed someone, you are moving at a faster speed than they are. Therefore, all other factors aside, the distance between the two cars will continue to increase. Unless the person moving right cuts in close enough to force the person behind them to brake, which is extremely rare in my experience, there is nothing wrong with moving right as soon as you have completed the pass.
Under no normal circumstances does moving right turn the guy behind you into a tailgater (unless he/she decides to keep up with you, but that's not strictly relevant here).

I agree.  Any unsafe following distance you created by moving right early only increases with every passing second.  And, the more of a difference between your speeds, the more quickly that following distance expands.  And, and, if there was room for you to move right to begin with, then there's generally not any obstruction in that lane to cause you to brake suddenly anyway.  And, and, and, choosing that small sliver of risk over the imminent and apparent risk presented by a tailgater riding your bumper is, IMHO, a wise choice to make.

Now, this is banking on the "normal circumstances" part of your statement.  Obviously, circumstances can be less than normal, but I agree that those are the exception rather than the rule.

Often they slow down after a lane change...

That's annoying, isn't it?  Also annoying are those drivers who dawdle in the left lane while people get impatient behind them, then speed up after moving right so no one can pass each other anyway—leaving everyone behind the now-first car in line still impatient and stuck.
Annoying.. but  changing lane is a choice, braking to avoid hitting nomatterwatter is not.
Space in front of my car is MY space to control, not yours.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on November 01, 2017, 02:25:11 PM
I think a factor the cut-right crowd underestimates is the great annoyance of having a large solid angle suddenly subtended by a car that cut in front.  And while it is true that an overtake at whatever speed implies a speed differential, it can be quite small to begin with and dwindle down to less than zero.  And a recent victim of cutting-in who stays on cruise control in the expectation of a following distance continuing to open up is still vulnerable to additional misbehavior like brake-checking.

That's annoying, isn't it?  Also annoying are those drivers who dawdle in the left lane while people get impatient behind them, then speed up after moving right so no one can pass each other anyway—leaving everyone behind the now-first car in line still impatient and stuck.

When maintaining position with regard to other vehicles (my personal preference is to choose speed and position so that other vehicles are at or near the vanishing point in both directions--on the highway I am very, very antisocial), one has to have appreciation for the total strategic picture.

I find the annoying behavior you describe is often a response to someone sitting in the left lane on cruise control and passing one car after another without ever adding speed to complete each overtake at a reasonable speed differential.  Putting on extra speed is one way of dealing with the misbehaving vehicle without losing freedom to maneuver or slowing down to the point where cars you have just overtaken must now overtake you.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on November 01, 2017, 02:56:23 PM
Also annoying are those drivers who dawdle in the left lane while people get impatient behind them, then speed up after moving right so no one can pass each other anyway—leaving everyone behind the now-first car in line still impatient and stuck.

I find the annoying behavior you describe is often a response to someone sitting in the left lane on cruise control and passing one car after another without ever adding speed to complete each overtake at a reasonable speed differential.

More often, it appears to be due to their being distracted by a phone conversation.  All of a sudden, they realize they're blocking traffic, so they both move over to the right and speed up.  Well, all they've succeeded in doing, practically, is to make the first car trying to pass them the new left lane clog.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 01, 2017, 03:32:15 PM
An other way to ask - Who is worse, the left lane camper, or "keep right no matter what" driver turning others into tailgaters by moving right at less than a safe distance?
Upstream in this thread, latter was deemed acceptable...

It should be noted that if you passed someone, you are moving at a faster speed than they are. Therefore, all other factors aside, the distance between the two cars will continue to increase. Unless the person moving right cuts in close enough to force the person behind them to brake, which is extremely rare in my experience, there is nothing wrong with moving right as soon as you have completed the pass.
Under no normal circumstances does moving right turn the guy behind you into a tailgater (unless he/she decides to keep up with you, but that's not strictly relevant here).

I agree.  Any unsafe following distance you created by moving right early only increases with every passing second.  And, the more of a difference between your speeds, the more quickly that following distance expands.  And, and, if there was room for you to move right to begin with, then there's generally not any obstruction in that lane to cause you to brake suddenly anyway.  And, and, and, choosing that small sliver of risk over the imminent and apparent risk presented by a tailgater riding your bumper is, IMHO, a wise choice to make.

Now, this is banking on the "normal circumstances" part of your statement.  Obviously, circumstances can be less than normal, but I agree that those are the exception rather than the rule.

Often they slow down after a lane change...

That's annoying, isn't it?  Also annoying are those drivers who dawdle in the left lane while people get impatient behind them, then speed up after moving right so no one can pass each other anyway—leaving everyone behind the now-first car in line still impatient and stuck.
Annoying.. but  changing lane is a choice, braking to avoid hitting nomatterwatter is not.
Space in front of my car is MY space to control, not yours.

The only space you can control is the space you're in.  If someone decides to merge in front of you, there's not a darn thing you can do about it, other than what you decide to do with your vehicle, whether it be slow down, merge over, maintain your speed, speed up, slam into the guardrail, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on November 01, 2017, 05:14:47 PM
An other way to ask - Who is worse, the left lane camper, or "keep right no matter what" driver turning others into tailgaters by moving right at less than a safe distance?
Upstream in this thread, latter was deemed acceptable...

It should be noted that if you passed someone, you are moving at a faster speed than they are. Therefore, all other factors aside, the distance between the two cars will continue to increase. Unless the person moving right cuts in close enough to force the person behind them to brake, which is extremely rare in my experience, there is nothing wrong with moving right as soon as you have completed the pass.
Under no normal circumstances does moving right turn the guy behind you into a tailgater (unless he/she decides to keep up with you, but that's not strictly relevant here).

I agree.  Any unsafe following distance you created by moving right early only increases with every passing second.  And, the more of a difference between your speeds, the more quickly that following distance expands.  And, and, if there was room for you to move right to begin with, then there's generally not any obstruction in that lane to cause you to brake suddenly anyway.  And, and, and, choosing that small sliver of risk over the imminent and apparent risk presented by a tailgater riding your bumper is, IMHO, a wise choice to make.

Now, this is banking on the "normal circumstances" part of your statement.  Obviously, circumstances can be less than normal, but I agree that those are the exception rather than the rule.

Often they slow down after a lane change...

That's annoying, isn't it?  Also annoying are those drivers who dawdle in the left lane while people get impatient behind them, then speed up after moving right so no one can pass each other anyway—leaving everyone behind the now-first car in line still impatient and stuck.
Annoying.. but  changing lane is a choice, braking to avoid hitting nomatterwatter is not.
Space in front of my car is MY space to control, not yours.

The only space you can control is the space you're in.  If someone decides to merge in front of you, there's not a darn thing you can do about it, other than what you decide to do with your vehicle, whether it be slow down, merge over, maintain your speed, speed up, slam into the guardrail, etc, etc.
Well, if it is dark - them not seeing me is always an option. So I increase my visibility by turning on high beams...
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on November 01, 2017, 08:13:54 PM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Slowing down after passing can be the result of asshats speeding up when someone tries to pass but slowing back down when that person gives up, forcing them to significantly increase speed to complete a pass.  Of course, this just results in the person who was passed trying to play leapfrog.  I don't know why, but it seems like some people really hate being passed.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on November 01, 2017, 08:15:23 PM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Slowing down after passing can be the result of asshats speeding up when someone tries to pass but slowing back down when that person gives up, forcing them to significantly increase speed to complete a pass.  Of course, this just results in the person who was passed trying to play leapfrog.  I don't know why, but it seems like some people really hate being passed.
Well, if they didn't see me to begin with - no big loss..
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on November 01, 2017, 08:22:09 PM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Well, if they didn't see me to begin with - no big loss..

It's possible they saw you, but were f-ing with you.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on November 01, 2017, 09:05:01 PM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Well, if they didn't see me to begin with - no big loss..

It's possible they saw you, but were f-ing with you.
I don't believe people would intentionally cause unsafe situation - so it must be lack of visibility that caused the issue.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 01, 2017, 09:13:41 PM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Well, if they didn't see me to begin with - no big loss..

It's possible they saw you, but were f-ing with you.
I don't believe people would intentionally cause unsafe situation - so it must be lack of visibility that caused the issue.

Seriously? You say you intentionally try to momentarily blind people by using your high beams, then say people don't intentionally cause unsafe situations?

You may want to consider what you say online. Those things are permanent, and can be used against you.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on November 01, 2017, 09:21:08 PM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Well, if they didn't see me to begin with - no big loss..

It's possible they saw you, but were f-ing with you.
I don't believe people would intentionally cause unsafe situation - so it must be lack of visibility that caused the issue.

Seriously? You say you intentionally try to momentarily blind people by using your high beams, then say people don't intentionally cause unsafe situations?

You may want to consider what you say online. Those things are permanent, and can be used against you.
Why, I am just advertising my accident avoidance technique. It is done exclusively in unsafe condition created by lack of situational awareness of other driver, when I am in the imminent danger of potentially deadly high speed collision. My actions are directed solely at resolving that underlying condition... Horn is another option, but on a highway it is often less than efficient as source of sound is difficult to identify.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: bzakharin on November 02, 2017, 09:44:49 AM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Well, if they didn't see me to begin with - no big loss..

It's possible they saw you, but were f-ing with you.
I don't believe people would intentionally cause unsafe situation - so it must be lack of visibility that caused the issue.
I beg to differ. I've had a situation where I accidentally cut someone off (that is to say, merged in ahead of someone and was forced to slam the breaks almost immediately because of what was unexpectedly happening ahead of me in my new lane). The person I cut off then passed me and slammed *his* brakes for the express purpose of "returning the favor". How would you describe that behavior?
Seriously? You say you intentionally try to momentarily blind people by using your high beams, then say people don't intentionally cause unsafe situations?
The key word is intentionally
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on November 02, 2017, 11:26:55 AM
I beg to differ. I've had a situation where I accidentally cut someone off (that is to say, merged in ahead of someone and was forced to slam the brakes almost immediately because of what was unexpectedly happening ahead of me in my new lane). The person I cut off then passed me and slammed *his* brakes for the express purpose of "returning the favor". How would you describe that behavior?

This is called "brake-checking."  As a misbehavior I expect it to become more common because of all the brake-checking videos posted to Facebook (often by truckers' magazines looking to develop virality) that effectively teach drivers how to do it and normalize it.

In practice, a defensive driver who is scrupulous about maintaining adequate following distance will generally never be brake-checked.  I cannot remember the last time I have been brake-checked on a freeway mainline.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: bzakharin on November 02, 2017, 12:14:02 PM
I beg to differ. I've had a situation where I accidentally cut someone off (that is to say, merged in ahead of someone and was forced to slam the brakes almost immediately because of what was unexpectedly happening ahead of me in my new lane). The person I cut off then passed me and slammed *his* brakes for the express purpose of "returning the favor". How would you describe that behavior?

This is called "brake-checking."  As a misbehavior I expect it to become more common because of all the brake-checking videos posted to Facebook (often by truckers' magazines looking to develop virality) that effectively teach drivers how to do it and normalize it.

In practice, a defensive driver who is scrupulous about maintaining adequate following distance will generally never be brake-checked.  I cannot remember the last time I have been brake-checked on a freeway mainline.
Never heard  the term. It wasn't a freeway, but a two-lane divided highway with traffic lights. Whether I could avoid the situation by slowing down when the car moved in front of me is up for debate (and I don't remember the incident well enough to argue anyway), but regardless, it's definitely a case of intentionally causing an unsafe situation, including for himself (sure, had there been an accident, I might have been deemed at fault for hitting him, but I would still be hitting him, potentially harming him and his car)
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on November 02, 2017, 12:58:32 PM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Well, if they didn't see me to begin with - no big loss..

It's possible they saw you, but were f-ing with you.
I don't believe people would intentionally cause unsafe situation - so it must be lack of visibility that caused the issue.

Seriously? You say you intentionally try to momentarily blind people by using your high beams, then say people don't intentionally cause unsafe situations?

You may want to consider what you say online. Those things are permanent, and can be used against you.
Why, I am just advertising my accident avoidance technique. It is done exclusively in unsafe condition created by lack of situational awareness of other driver, when I am in the imminent danger of potentially deadly high speed collision. My actions are directed solely at resolving that underlying condition... Horn is another option, but on a highway it is often less than efficient as source of sound is difficult to identify.
Honestly, it's probably caused by the fact that many drivers here feel entitled to merge onto a road and feel it's the other driver's responsibility to let them in.  Better to just slow down or move over.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 02, 2017, 01:03:53 PM
So then they're blinded and probably stopped using their mirrors...

Well, if they didn't see me to begin with - no big loss..

It's possible they saw you, but were f-ing with you.
I don't believe people would intentionally cause unsafe situation - so it must be lack of visibility that caused the issue.

Seriously? You say you intentionally try to momentarily blind people by using your high beams, then say people don't intentionally cause unsafe situations?

You may want to consider what you say online. Those things are permanent, and can be used against you.
Why, I am just advertising my accident avoidance technique. It is done exclusively in unsafe condition created by lack of situational awareness of other driver, when I am in the imminent danger of potentially deadly high speed collision. My actions are directed solely at resolving that underlying condition... Horn is another option, but on a highway it is often less than efficient as source of sound is difficult to identify.
Honestly, it's probably caused by the fact that many drivers here feel entitled to merge onto a road and feel it's the other driver's responsibility to let them in.  Better to just slow down or move over.

Unfortunately, too many drivers already in the road slow down to allow the incoming driver in.  In most cases, the driver already on the road would easily pass the slower vehicle entering the road if they had simply maintained their speed.

And, since someone on the highway entered the highway at some point, they probably merged over too soon to begin with, under that belief that they get priority when entering the road.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on November 02, 2017, 01:16:49 PM
Around here that belief is very common.  People also don't accelerate until they're already in the travel lane, either.  I've lost count of the number of times when I had to slow down to let someone in when they could have easily slipped in front of me if only they had used the ramp and acceleration lane for what they're designed for.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on November 02, 2017, 01:35:00 PM
I've lost count of the number of times when I had to slow down to let someone in when they could have easily slipped in front of me if only they had used the ramp and acceleration lane for what they're designed for.

I beg to differ on "easily."  I don't think the majority of drivers on the road have vehicles maintained well enough to shift smoothly at wide throttle openings.  In my experience it is also far from universal for agencies to compensate for adverse grades by increasing the length available for speed changing, and to facilitate smooth acceleration to mainline operating speed by refraining from putting a curve just behind the merge nose.  In Kansas, for example, on-ramps at diamond interchanges tend to be long tangents that finish at a fairly sharp curve at the merge nose, so if you try to accelerate to mainline speed on the tangent, you have to wrench the steering wheel sharply to the right to avoid fouling the nose.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on November 02, 2017, 01:50:36 PM
I beg to differ. I've had a situation where I accidentally cut someone off (that is to say, merged in ahead of someone and was forced to slam the brakes almost immediately because of what was unexpectedly happening ahead of me in my new lane). The person I cut off then passed me and slammed *his* brakes for the express purpose of "returning the favor". How would you describe that behavior?
This is called "brake-checking."  As a misbehavior I expect it to become more common because of all the brake-checking videos posted to Facebook (often by truckers' magazines looking to develop virality) that effectively teach drivers how to do it and normalize it.
In practice, a defensive driver who is scrupulous about maintaining adequate following distance will generally never be brake-checked.  I cannot remember the last time I have been brake-checked on a freeway mainline.

"Brake-checking" is a good way to have a high speed accident with vehicles spinning out and crashing, if the vehicle behind doesn't slow down enough.  People who engage in "brake-checking" are probably dense enough that they would do it to a large truck.  Shovel up for safety.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on November 02, 2017, 01:58:21 PM
"Brake-checking" is a good way to have a high speed accident with vehicles spinning out and crashing, if the vehicle behind doesn't slow down enough.  People who engage in "brake-checking" are probably dense enough that they would do it to a large truck.  Shovel up for safety.

The Facebook click pieces I see go like this:  "See this asshole get brake-checked."  "Look what happens when people try to brake-check a large truck."  My real objection to these pieces is that they drag the level of culture down.  If you grab people's attention by showing them mistakes they would know to avoid after literally only five minutes' worth of driver instruction, then that is headspace they cannot dedicate to addressing the more subtle issues that come up on the road and differentiate the best drivers from the merely good.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on November 02, 2017, 02:13:15 PM
Confession time.

I used to get really upset at left-lane campers.  Which is stupid, looking back, because getting mad never accomplishes anything.  Anyway, I developed the terrible habit of showing my ire by riding the lane stripe while passing on the right, intentionally forcing the other driver to ride the shoulder line, then cutting left again once I was a mere couple of feet in front of the other car's bumper.  As I said, this was stupid, stupid, aggressive behavior.  Well, one day on my way to work, the other driver decided to chase me down.  Wishing to avoid a confrontation (ironic, right?), I attempted to outmaneuver him a couple of times by exiting at the last second.  But he, being a car-length behind me, could always anticipate my moves, so I kept going along the Interstate.  I finally ended up shaking him by doing a hairpin at my work exit on-ramp and driving the wrong way down the ramp to the crossroad.  That shook me up pretty badly and has dramatically changed my outlook on the road.  I still get irritated at left-lane campers, but I'm able to control myself now.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on November 02, 2017, 02:37:58 PM
"Brake-checking" is a good way to have a high speed accident with vehicles spinning out and crashing, if the vehicle behind doesn't slow down enough.  People who engage in "brake-checking" are probably dense enough that they would do it to a large truck.  Shovel up for safety.
The Facebook click pieces I see go like this:  "See this asshole get brake-checked."  "Look what happens when people try to brake-check a large truck."  My real objection to these pieces is that they drag the level of culture down.  If you grab people's attention by showing them mistakes they would know to avoid after literally only five minutes' worth of driver instruction, then that is headspace they cannot dedicate to addressing the more subtle issues that come up on the road and differentiate the best drivers from the merely good.

I just checked YouTube on the search "brake-checked" and paged down several pages, and the vast majority of the titles were about something going wrong, such as miscalculating and crashing, or brake-checking an unmarked police car.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on November 02, 2017, 07:50:17 PM
I've lost count of the number of times when I had to slow down to let someone in when they could have easily slipped in front of me if only they had used the ramp and acceleration lane for what they're designed for.

I beg to differ on "easily."  I don't think the majority of drivers on the road have vehicles maintained well enough to shift smoothly at wide throttle openings.  In my experience it is also far from universal for agencies to compensate for adverse grades by increasing the length available for speed changing, and to facilitate smooth acceleration to mainline operating speed by refraining from putting a curve just behind the merge nose.  In Kansas, for example, on-ramps at diamond interchanges tend to be long tangents that finish at a fairly sharp curve at the merge nose, so if you try to accelerate to mainline speed on the tangent, you have to wrench the steering wheel sharply to the right to avoid fouling the nose.
I'm talking about drivers that merge into traffic at 40 mph immediately when the gore ends despite there being plenty of acceleration lane left.  In any case, I can usually make any end of ramp curves at 50 mph barring a loop ramp.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on November 05, 2017, 07:55:03 AM
I've lost count of the number of times when I had to slow down to let someone in when they could have easily slipped in front of me if only they had used the ramp and acceleration lane for what they're designed for.

I beg to differ on "easily."  I don't think the majority of drivers on the road have vehicles maintained well enough to shift smoothly at wide throttle openings.  In my experience it is also far from universal for agencies to compensate for adverse grades by increasing the length available for speed changing, and to facilitate smooth acceleration to mainline operating speed by refraining from putting a curve just behind the merge nose.  In Kansas, for example, on-ramps at diamond interchanges tend to be long tangents that finish at a fairly sharp curve at the merge nose, so if you try to accelerate to mainline speed on the tangent, you have to wrench the steering wheel sharply to the right to avoid fouling the nose.
I'm talking about drivers that merge into traffic at 40 mph immediately when the gore ends despite there being plenty of acceleration lane left.  In any case, I can usually make any end of ramp curves at 50 mph barring a loop ramp.
I bet they do that because they think they're already going the speed limit.  My opinion has always been that because most people look straight ahead when driving they don't looks at the speedometer so they always assume they're going the speed limit.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: bzakharin on November 06, 2017, 12:26:08 PM
I've lost count of the number of times when I had to slow down to let someone in when they could have easily slipped in front of me if only they had used the ramp and acceleration lane for what they're designed for.

I beg to differ on "easily."  I don't think the majority of drivers on the road have vehicles maintained well enough to shift smoothly at wide throttle openings.  In my experience it is also far from universal for agencies to compensate for adverse grades by increasing the length available for speed changing, and to facilitate smooth acceleration to mainline operating speed by refraining from putting a curve just behind the merge nose.  In Kansas, for example, on-ramps at diamond interchanges tend to be long tangents that finish at a fairly sharp curve at the merge nose, so if you try to accelerate to mainline speed on the tangent, you have to wrench the steering wheel sharply to the right to avoid fouling the nose.
I'm talking about drivers that merge into traffic at 40 mph immediately when the gore ends despite there being plenty of acceleration lane left.  In any case, I can usually make any end of ramp curves at 50 mph barring a loop ramp.
I bet they do that because they think they're already going the speed limit.  My opinion has always been that because most people look straight ahead when driving they don't looks at the speedometer so they always assume they're going the speed limit.
That can't be possible. Why do they eventually speed up then? How do they adjust their speed when the speed limit changes?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kalvado on November 06, 2017, 12:56:35 PM
That can't be possible. Why do they eventually speed up then? How do they adjust their speed when the speed limit changes?
One of the concepts about speed limit is that speed most people would use on a given stretch of the road is the safe speed, and only top 15-30% have to be slower down. Not fully correct, most likely, and definitely not implemented that way - but driving at the speed you feel comfortable with is often close enough to stay out of trouble.
And a problem here can be with transition from slower street traffic  to highway and back. Going too fast coming from the highway is not uncommon.
DOesn't make it right - but attempts to explain why it happens. 
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on March 18, 2019, 01:38:53 PM
Here is a sign (admittedly over-simplified and kind of ugly) that I designed that I believe should be posted at every freeway entrance in the US:

(https://imgur.com/1dKARp5.jpg)


Thoughts?  :-P
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Rothman on March 18, 2019, 01:48:54 PM
Here is a sign (admittedly over-simplified and kind of ugly) that I designed that I believe should be posted at every freeway entrance in the US:

(https://imgur.com/1dKARp5.jpg)


Thoughts?  :-P
Pass the truck?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on March 18, 2019, 02:10:30 PM
This is the sign used in British Columbia, which I think would work elsewhere:

(http://www.vancouversun.com/cms/binary/11132342.jpg?size=sw620x65)
(image from Vancouver Sun)
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 18, 2019, 02:52:22 PM
Here is a sign (admittedly over-simplified and kind of ugly) that I designed that I believe should be posted at every freeway entrance in the US:

(https://imgur.com/1dKARp5.jpg)


Thoughts?  :-P
Except some states are "slower traffic keep right" for 3+ lane freeways not "keep right except to pass".
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2019, 03:16:37 PM
This is the sign used in British Columbia, which I think would work elsewhere:

(http://www.vancouversun.com/cms/binary/11132342.jpg?size=sw620x65)
(image from Vancouver Sun)

That seems to indicate that faster traffic should be passing on the right!

The black vehicle on the right, with a arrow thru the faster looking green car going from the right lane to the left lane would be a more accurate description of a motorist passing.  The black car shouldn't have been in the left lane to begin with!
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on March 18, 2019, 05:20:35 PM
This is the sign used in British Columbia, which I think would work elsewhere:

(http://www.vancouversun.com/cms/binary/11132342.jpg?size=sw620x65)
(image from Vancouver Sun)

That seems to indicate that faster traffic should be passing on the right!

The black vehicle on the right, with a arrow thru the faster looking green car going from the right lane to the left lane would be a more accurate description of a motorist passing.  The black car shouldn't have been in the left lane to begin with!

The sign was created with the expectation that it would need to speak directly to left lane hogs: "change into the right lane to allow cars, behind you, to then pass you". The black arrow is telling drivers what to do, and the green car with the streaks behind it, is indicating that your action will allow a faster car to continue.

I think most people know that the left lane is only for passing. What they don't seem to understand is that, in most places, you then have to get back over. This is to whom this sign is directed towards.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on March 18, 2019, 06:17:44 PM
The sign was created with the expectation that it would need to speak directly to left lane hogs: "change into the right lane to allow cars, behind you, to then pass you". The black arrow is telling drivers what to do, and the green car with the streaks behind it, is indicating that your action will allow a faster car to continue.

I think most people know that the left lane is only for passing. What they don't seem to understand is that, in most places, you then have to get back over. This is to whom this sign is directed towards.

That sign is definitely a step in the right direction.

However, it has been my experience that most drivers hanging out in the left lane believe it is the "fast" lane, and that they somehow have exclusive rights to decide what "fast" means. They regard the act of passing other cars as the effect of being in the fast lane, rather than the cause for being there.

This backwards thinking is what causes so many problems on busy rural freeways. I think my diagram gets at the issue in a more explicit way than the BC sign. There should not need to be faster traffic present to oblige/pressure you to move right, it should be instinctive.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2019, 06:35:49 PM
The sign was created with the expectation that it would need to speak directly to left lane hogs: "change into the right lane to allow cars, behind you, to then pass you". The black arrow is telling drivers what to do, and the green car with the streaks behind it, is indicating that your action will allow a faster car to continue.

I think most people know that the left lane is only for passing. What they don't seem to understand is that, in most places, you then have to get back over. This is to whom this sign is directed towards.

That sign is definitely a step in the right direction.

However, it has been my experience that most drivers hanging out in the left lane believe it is the "fast" lane, and that they somehow have exclusive rights to decide what "fast" means. They regard the act of passing other cars as the effect of being in the fast lane, rather than the cause for being there.


I've also heard the excuse that it's the safer lane to be in.  So they just get over because it's safer, and they don't have to deal with merging traffic.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on March 18, 2019, 07:09:47 PM
I travel on I-75 a lot between Saginaw and Detroit. In Flint at the I-69 interchange you also have the Miller Road interchange tied in with the I-69 interchange, then have the Bristol Road interchange right after that, then the US-23 split soon after that. So the best way to get around all the traffic is to get in the left lane right before the Corunna exit and stay in it until the US-23 split, if you're staying on I-75 you can stay in the left lane but would need to at least get in the middle lane to continue on US-23. It's just a major mess of traffic entering and exiting the freeway. I-69 doesn't have this problem because it doesn't have the interchanges like I-75 does.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on March 18, 2019, 09:22:30 PM
The sign was created with the expectation that it would need to speak directly to left lane hogs: "change into the right lane to allow cars, behind you, to then pass you". The black arrow is telling drivers what to do, and the green car with the streaks behind it, is indicating that your action will allow a faster car to continue.
I think most people know that the left lane is only for passing. What they don't seem to understand is that, in most places, you then have to get back over. This is to whom this sign is directed towards.
That sign is definitely a step in the right direction.
However, it has been my experience that most drivers hanging out in the left lane believe it is the "fast" lane, and that they somehow have exclusive rights to decide what "fast" means. They regard the act of passing other cars as the effect of being in the fast lane, rather than the cause for being there.
I've also heard the excuse that it's the safer lane to be in.  So they just get over because it's safer, and they don't have to deal with merging traffic.

Yeah, it's certainly easier cruising at whatever speed you want and not worrying about anyone interfering, but I don't think that translates to safer. It ends up being a recipe for road rage as drivers pile up behind, pass on the right, etc. See: NYS Thruway.

I travel on I-75 a lot between Saginaw and Detroit. In Flint at the I-69 interchange you also have the Miller Road interchange tied in with the I-69 interchange, then have the Bristol Road interchange right after that, then the US-23 split soon after that. So the best way to get around all the traffic is to get in the left lane right before the Corunna exit and stay in it until the US-23 split, if you're staying on I-75 you can stay in the left lane but would need to at least get in the middle lane to continue on US-23. It's just a major mess of traffic entering and exiting the freeway.

I-75 is six or more lanes all the way through that area. I wouldn't think it's necessary to be in the far left lane just because of merging traffic. Better to stick to the middle unless you really are among the fastest traffic. If both the right and center lanes fill up, you always have the option of moving left, but I wouldn't expect that to always be the case.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on March 19, 2019, 07:00:33 AM
The sign was created with the expectation that it would need to speak directly to left lane hogs: "change into the right lane to allow cars, behind you, to then pass you". The black arrow is telling drivers what to do, and the green car with the streaks behind it, is indicating that your action will allow a faster car to continue.
I think most people know that the left lane is only for passing. What they don't seem to understand is that, in most places, you then have to get back over. This is to whom this sign is directed towards.
That sign is definitely a step in the right direction.
However, it has been my experience that most drivers hanging out in the left lane believe it is the "fast" lane, and that they somehow have exclusive rights to decide what "fast" means. They regard the act of passing other cars as the effect of being in the fast lane, rather than the cause for being there.
I've also heard the excuse that it's the safer lane to be in.  So they just get over because it's safer, and they don't have to deal with merging traffic.

Yeah, it's certainly easier cruising at whatever speed you want and not worrying about anyone interfering, but I don't think that translates to safer. It ends up being a recipe for road rage as drivers pile up behind, pass on the right, etc. See: NYS Thruway.

I travel on I-75 a lot between Saginaw and Detroit. In Flint at the I-69 interchange you also have the Miller Road interchange tied in with the I-69 interchange, then have the Bristol Road interchange right after that, then the US-23 split soon after that. So the best way to get around all the traffic is to get in the left lane right before the Corunna exit and stay in it until the US-23 split, if you're staying on I-75 you can stay in the left lane but would need to at least get in the middle lane to continue on US-23. It's just a major mess of traffic entering and exiting the freeway.

I-75 is six or more lanes all the way through that area. I wouldn't think it's necessary to be in the far left lane just because of merging traffic. Better to stick to the middle unless you really are among the fastest traffic. If both the right and center lanes fill up, you always have the option of moving left, but I wouldn't expect that to always be the case.
It's six lanes and then drops down to four for 4 miles after the US-23 split, then gets it's other lane back after the I-475 merges into it. The I-475 interchange the one at MM 111 is just northbound to northbound and southbound to southbound movements you can't go southbound I-75 to northbound I-475 you'd have to go up to the next exit at Dort Hwy. and turn around.

It's just easier to use the left lane to pass all the traffic entering and exiting the freeway. It's a 3 mile stretch of 5 exits and entrances all leading from or going to major roads.

This is a little further north between Saginaw and Flint and I think I've seen you say that you've been through this area before. After MM 125 which is the northern terminus of I-475 it's eight lanes all the way to MM 148, then goes back to six lanes until MM 155 and then becomes eight lanes again until MM 164 then it's four lanes most of the way to the northern terminus in Sault Ste. Marie but has a stretch or two that has six lanes but not for very long. The entire U.P. stretch of I-75 is one of the least traveled stretches of Interstate anywhere. Most of the traffic crossing the Mackinac Bridge U.P. bound gets off at US-2 and heads west.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 19, 2019, 07:49:25 AM
It's just easier to use the left lane to pass all the traffic entering and exiting the freeway. It's a 3 mile stretch of 5 exits and entrances all leading from or going to major roads.

How many pass traffic on the right?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on March 19, 2019, 10:39:34 AM
It's just easier to use the left lane to pass all the traffic entering and exiting the freeway. It's a 3 mile stretch of 5 exits and entrances all leading from or going to major roads.

How many pass traffic on the right?
In Michigan a lot. I did it this morning on SB I-75. I was in the left lane and the car in front of me was moving slower than a truck in the middle lane so I switched to the middle lane then into the right lane past them both and got back in the middle lane ahead of the truck. I could have probably waited because it was in the stretch where it was going from 3 Lanes to 4 Lanes.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on March 20, 2019, 07:52:11 AM
It's just easier to use the left lane to pass all the traffic entering and exiting the freeway. It's a 3 mile stretch of 5 exits and entrances all leading from or going to major roads.
How many pass traffic on the right?
In Michigan a lot. I did it this morning on SB I-75. I was in the left lane and the car in front of me was moving slower than a truck in the middle lane so I switched to the middle lane then into the right lane past them both and got back in the middle lane ahead of the truck. I could have probably waited because it was in the stretch where it was going from 3 Lanes to 4 Lanes.

That's where the problem is. The truck should have been in the right lane, and the car in front of you should have been in the middle lane. If people are passing on the right under normal conditions, somebody is doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 20, 2019, 08:16:43 AM
It's just easier to use the left lane to pass all the traffic entering and exiting the freeway. It's a 3 mile stretch of 5 exits and entrances all leading from or going to major roads.
How many pass traffic on the right?
In Michigan a lot. I did it this morning on SB I-75. I was in the left lane and the car in front of me was moving slower than a truck in the middle lane so I switched to the middle lane then into the right lane past them both and got back in the middle lane ahead of the truck. I could have probably waited because it was in the stretch where it was going from 3 Lanes to 4 Lanes.

That's where the problem is. The truck should have been in the right lane, and the car in front of you should have been in the middle lane. If people are passing on the right under normal conditions, somebody is doing something wrong.
The bold might not necessarily apply if the car in front is moving with the speed of traffic. IIRC Michigan has a 3+ lane exception for keep right except to pass.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on March 20, 2019, 01:51:18 PM
IIRC Michigan has a 3+ lane exception for keep right except to pass.

↓  Yep.  ↓

Quote from: Michigan Vehicle Code 257.634 (3)
This section shall not be construed to prohibit a vehicle traveling in the appropriate direction from traveling in any lane of a freeway having 3 or more lanes for travel in the same direction.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on March 20, 2019, 02:24:28 PM
It's just easier to use the left lane to pass all the traffic entering and exiting the freeway. It's a 3 mile stretch of 5 exits and entrances all leading from or going to major roads.
How many pass traffic on the right?
In Michigan a lot. I did it this morning on SB I-75. I was in the left lane and the car in front of me was moving slower than a truck in the middle lane so I switched to the middle lane then into the right lane past them both and got back in the middle lane ahead of the truck. I could have probably waited because it was in the stretch where it was going from 3 Lanes to 4 Lanes.

That's where the problem is. The truck should have been in the right lane, and the car in front of you should have been in the middle lane. If people are passing on the right under normal conditions, somebody is doing something wrong.
Yeah exactly. The truck should have been in the right lane and the car in front of me in the middle lane. I would say they were both in the wrong. I'm talking about a car moving like 68 mph in front of me.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on March 20, 2019, 02:27:52 PM
It's just easier to use the left lane to pass all the traffic entering and exiting the freeway. It's a 3 mile stretch of 5 exits and entrances all leading from or going to major roads.
How many pass traffic on the right?
In Michigan a lot. I did it this morning on SB I-75. I was in the left lane and the car in front of me was moving slower than a truck in the middle lane so I switched to the middle lane then into the right lane past them both and got back in the middle lane ahead of the truck. I could have probably waited because it was in the stretch where it was going from 3 Lanes to 4 Lanes.

That's where the problem is. The truck should have been in the right lane, and the car in front of you should have been in the middle lane. If people are passing on the right under normal conditions, somebody is doing something wrong.
The bold might not necessarily apply if the car in front is moving with the speed of traffic. IIRC Michigan has a 3+ lane exception for keep right except to pass.
On a stretch with three or more lanes in one direction it just means to use the left lane only to pass in. The Michigan State Police were suppose to start enforcing that a few years ago but several people still misuse the left lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on March 20, 2019, 02:30:46 PM
It doesn't matter if the law says you're allowed to cruise in that lane. It's still rude to obstruct traffic. Prime example of a situation where just because something is legal doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: djsekani on March 23, 2019, 11:29:05 AM
I can only really talk about Southern California because that's where I've racked up about 95% of my total driving miles, but when it comes to left-lane driving, there's only one unofficial rule: GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY WAY.

Seriously, many drivers out here think that the greatest sin one can commit on the freeway is to drive slower in the left lane than the vehicle behind you. If you're going 100 MPH and the vehicle in front of you is going 90 MPH, the vehicle in front should get out of the way. Doesn't matter if the vehicle in front has to slam on their brakes to un-safely merge into traffic on the right, doesn't matter what the speed limit actually is, doesn't matter how close you're tailgating to show your displeasure, doesn't even matter that both drivers are probably on their phones. The One Rule to Rule Them All is GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY WAY.

From what I've been told by Highway Patrol, the slower traffic keep right rule doesn't supersede the speed limit. Legally, if a vehicle is not going slower than the speed limit, they won't be cited for driving too slowly in the left lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on March 23, 2019, 12:31:21 PM
I can only really talk about Southern California because that's where I've racked up about 95% of my total driving miles, but when it comes to left-lane driving, there's only one unofficial rule: GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY WAY.

Seriously, many drivers out here think that the greatest sin one can commit on the freeway is to drive slower in the left lane than the vehicle behind you. If you're going 100 MPH and the vehicle in front of you is going 90 MPH, the vehicle in front should get out of the way. Doesn't matter if the vehicle in front has to slam on their brakes to un-safely merge into traffic on the right, doesn't matter what the speed limit actually is, doesn't matter how close you're tailgating to show your displeasure, doesn't even matter that both drivers are probably on their phones. The One Rule to Rule Them All is GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY WAY.

From what I've been told by Highway Patrol, the slower traffic keep right rule doesn't supersede the speed limit. Legally, if a vehicle is going slower than the speed limit, they won't be cited for driving too slowly in the left lane.

The CHP *DOES* occasionally cite (or at least stop) people up here for poking. Sometimes such drivers are stoned, distracted, can't see well, talking on the phone and keeping a huge distance between them and the car ahead to compensate, but sometimes they are just rude. They need to cite them all due to the "GTFOOMW" rule (which is actually codified in California CVC 21654).
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on March 23, 2019, 12:45:31 PM
Seriously, many drivers out here think that the greatest sin one can commit on the freeway is to drive slower in the left lane than the vehicle behind you.

It is the eternal sin that can never be expiated.  Not even in the confessional booth.  It is worse than smoking reefer.  It is worse than manslaughter.  It is worse than mass murder. <sarc>
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on March 25, 2019, 01:19:49 PM
If you're going 100 MPH and the vehicle in front of you is going 90 MPH, the vehicle in front should get out of the way.

I agree with that statement.  Driving above a certain speed limit does not absolve one of any responsibility to keep right.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: djsekani on March 26, 2019, 08:39:47 AM
The CHP *DOES* occasionally cite (or at least stop) people up here for poking. Sometimes such drivers are stoned, distracted, can't see well, talking on the phone and keeping a huge distance between them and the car ahead to compensate, but sometimes they are just rude. They need to cite them all due to the "GTFOOMW" rule (which is actually codified in California CVC 21654).

About that CVC 21654 (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21654):

Quote from: California Vehicle Code
21654. 
(a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation of subdivision (a) of this section.

(c) The Department of Transportation, with respect to state highways, and local authorities, with respect to highways under their jurisdiction, may place and maintain upon highways official signs directing slow-moving traffic to use the right-hand traffic lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or preparing for a left turn.

(Amended by Stats. 1974, Ch. 545.)

Based on those first six words I would challenge any "keep right" ticket given to me as long as I wasn't going under the speed limit.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2019, 08:53:16 AM
The CHP *DOES* occasionally cite (or at least stop) people up here for poking. Sometimes such drivers are stoned, distracted, can't see well, talking on the phone and keeping a huge distance between them and the car ahead to compensate, but sometimes they are just rude. They need to cite them all due to the "GTFOOMW" rule (which is actually codified in California CVC 21654).

About that CVC 21654 (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21654):

Quote from: California Vehicle Code
21654. 
(a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation of subdivision (a) of this section.

(c) The Department of Transportation, with respect to state highways, and local authorities, with respect to highways under their jurisdiction, may place and maintain upon highways official signs directing slow-moving traffic to use the right-hand traffic lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or preparing for a left turn.

(Amended by Stats. 1974, Ch. 545.)

Based on those first six words I would challenge any "keep right" ticket given to me as long as I wasn't going under the speed limit.

Each law is separate and distinct.  The fact that you were driving at or under the speed limit does not absolve your duty to keep to the right.

Or, to make it more clear, if you're driving 63 mph in a 65 zone while drinking a beer, the cop isn't going to say since you're driving under the speed limit you can keep drinking. 

Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on March 26, 2019, 10:18:05 PM
Around Michigan you can do 80 mph and the cops won't bother you. There are plenty of cars going faster than 80 mph that they are going to nail, 80 is the normal speed.

Now about 4 years or so ago a state cop got me doing 83 in a 70 coming off NB I-75 onto WB M-55 towards Houghton Lake. He told me he had me at 69 mph in the off ramp but ended up letting me go.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on March 27, 2019, 01:31:39 PM
Do off-ramps even have speed limits?   :hmmm:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on March 27, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
Many off-ramps have advisory speeds, but I highly doubt these are enforceable.

In the case of NY 104, which has a service road with a 40 mph speed limit and a mainline speed limit of 55 mph, I am not sure which limit applies to the slip ramps. In my case, I just apply the mainline speed limit of 55 mph to the service road, and +15 (70 mph) to the mainline.  :D
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on March 27, 2019, 02:05:12 PM
They have suggested speeds. They'd be a yellow and black sign. Like the exit I was talking about is right here: (There isn't a suggested speed sign at this exit). Furthermore it's still a divided highway until you get to Old M-55 (West Branch Road).

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3138572,-84.4841708,3a,75y,263.5h,89.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDfmPMrTb3YgdFyuIph-btA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Just to the east (I-75 is running east and west in this area) of this exit is an authorized vehicles only drive between the two directions and I think the cop was sitting up in that turn around the one that's where Towner Road would cross I-75 if it didn't dead end on both sides of it.

Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: michravera on March 28, 2019, 03:04:55 PM
The CHP *DOES* occasionally cite (or at least stop) people up here for poking. Sometimes such drivers are stoned, distracted, can't see well, talking on the phone and keeping a huge distance between them and the car ahead to compensate, but sometimes they are just rude. They need to cite them all due to the "GTFOOMW" rule (which is actually codified in California CVC 21654).

About that CVC 21654 (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21654):

Quote from: California Vehicle Code
21654. 
(a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation of subdivision (a) of this section.

(c) The Department of Transportation, with respect to state highways, and local authorities, with respect to highways under their jurisdiction, may place and maintain upon highways official signs directing slow-moving traffic to use the right-hand traffic lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or preparing for a left turn.

(Amended by Stats. 1974, Ch. 545.)

Based on those first six words I would challenge any "keep right" ticket given to me as long as I wasn't going under the speed limit.

Then you would be arguing EXACTLY what the law says that it doesn't say! Good luck with that!
Subsection C legalizes "Slower Traffic Keep Right" and "Keep Right Except To Pass" signs.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 7/8 on April 10, 2019, 10:31:55 PM
I have cited the true problem of "middle lane hogging".  That is on 6-lane (3 each way) Interstates where drivers going 5 to 10 mph or more below the speed limit camp out in the middle lane, apparently thinking that it is OK because they are not in the inner lane.  In heavy traffic this causes congestion as traffic has to slow down and flow around these jerks.  BTW, flashing headlights or horn and hand signals rarely get these drivers to get over into the right lane.  These are not cases where pavement conditions in the right lane have anything to do with it.  This problem is quite common.

I know this is an old post, but it seems to be one of the few that talks about the huge issue of middle lane camping. Unlike left lane camping which I find less common, I see middle lane camping constantly and it's aggravating. People will drive the same speed or slower than the traffic to their right. This causes lots of people to pile into the left lane and clog it up. I really wish middle lane camping was called put more often because it really reduces the efficiency of our freeways.

I actually find the right lane is often the best passing lane since so many cars default to the middle lane(s) and some people are scared to pass on the right. The way I see it is if I can safely pass you on the right, then you're in the wrong lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 11, 2019, 02:02:30 PM
I really agree about middle lane camping. It is a much more pervasive problem because to the average driver, the issues with middle lane camping are not readily apparent. They don't believe they are causing problems by hanging out there when in fact they may be a moving bottleneck, forcing everybody that approaches them to brake and cram into line to get around them, or else pass on the right.

It is frustrating to approach a middle lane camper on an empty or almost empty highway. It forces me to do something I don't like to do. Either (a) pass on the right, or (b) use the left lane for no good reason. Sometimes when I am already in the right lane, I will move to the middle, then flash my left blinker for a minute. If they don't move over, only then will I move left, pass, and move all the way to the right again. Often I will put my four-way-flashers on after I have completed the pass for a minute or two.

If this sounds like something that could occur on the QEW, that's because it does!  :D :pan:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on April 11, 2019, 02:27:16 PM
I know this is an old post, but it seems to be one of the few that talks about the huge issue of middle lane camping.

Like I said a major problem on 6-lane (3 each way) Interstates. 

Less pronounced on 8-lane (4 each way) Interstates, because of the 3 other lanes available besides the #2 or #3 lane, but still a problem.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 11, 2019, 02:38:15 PM
I agree with the middle lane camping. I get so annoyed when I'm set at a speed and going that speed only to have someone for no good reason at all going much slower than me ahead. I even get passed at 80 mph but at least at that speed I don't feel like I'm moving too slow for anyone. I do 70 mph at times as well and when I do that I'll go in the right lane and let whoever wants to pass go. I see this in Chicago a lot when I'm there, someone will be traveling about 62-65 mph in the left lane with a huge gap in front of them, at that point you have no business being in the left lane or even middle lane. I see this on the Dan Ryan, Eisenhower, Stevenson and Kennedy and it happens when traffic is moving too.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 11, 2019, 03:26:49 PM
I see middle-lane camping as a result of seeing the highway as 1 left lane + 2 right lanes.  Those who don't middle-lane camp see the highway as 1 right lane + 2 left lanes.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 11, 2019, 05:17:20 PM
I see middle-lane camping as a result of seeing the highway as 1 left lane + 2 right lanes.  Those who don't middle-lane camp see the highway as 1 right lane + 2 left lanes.

 :clap: :nod:
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on April 11, 2019, 08:18:28 PM
I know this is an old post, but it seems to be one of the few that talks about the huge issue of middle lane camping.

Like I said a major problem on 6-lane (3 each way) Interstates. 

Less pronounced on 8-lane (4 each way) Interstates, because of the 3 other lanes available besides the #2 or #3 lane, but still a problem.
Though still a major issue; I was driving along I-95/MA 128 and it struck me that the fact that Boston drivers are right-lane phobic probably forces them to be even more aggressive than they already would be.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on April 11, 2019, 08:27:06 PM
Like I said a major problem on 6-lane (3 each way) Interstates. 
Less pronounced on 8-lane (4 each way) Interstates, because of the 3 other lanes available besides the #2 or #3 lane, but still a problem.
Though still a major issue; I was driving along I-95/MA 128 and it struck me that the fact that Boston drivers are right-lane phobic probably forces them to be even more aggressive than they already would be.

Metropolitan beltways tend to have closely spaced interchanges, so I can understand not wanting to cruise in the right lane, with all the transitional traffic to and from the ramps.  But I think that a driver ought to at least maintain the speed limit if traffic conditions allow it, if they are in lane #2 (left-outer or second from rightmost) on 8-lane (4 each way).
 
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 11, 2019, 09:34:16 PM
In Detroit, if you are in the left lane and doing anything under 80 your going to be getting tailgated. Even 80 gets you tailgated pretty good, left lane in the city of Detroit ranges from 85-100 mph.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 12, 2019, 06:54:17 PM
I see middle-lane camping as a result of seeing the highway as 1 left lane + 2 right lanes.  Those who don't middle-lane camp see the highway as 1 right lane + 2 left lanes.
In some states the right lane is designated by statue for slow moving vehicles. That is vehicles moving below the speed limit.  I don't see any issue with speed limit drivers keeping the center lane. Don't like it, you have both lanes to pass in. And when there's more than three lanes, forget it. It makes no sense to say everyone has to stay absolutely to the right.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 12, 2019, 08:00:44 PM
In some states the right lane is designated by statue for slow moving vehicles. That is vehicles moving below the speed limit.

Eh, no, not really. Moving slower than other traffic. On many six lane highways you could be going speed limit +10 or even +15 and still be among the slower traffic, so you still need to keep right.

I don't see any issue with speed limit drivers keeping the center lane. Don't like it, you have both lanes to pass in.

Well that's just it - you're seeing two right lanes instead of two left lanes. Therefore, you aren't seeing the issues, but they still exist. The most glaring issues are as follows:

- People bunch up in the left lane to pass, obstructing traffic flow. The left two lanes are now occupied, instead of the right two lanes.

- The fastest drivers become aggravated, because others are needlessly in their way. They have to brake when they wouldn't have otherwise.

- Passing on the right occurs. It is often the fastest traffic that passes on the right, in order to avoid the jammed left lane and get ahead. This creates numerous safety issues and runs contrary to the most fundamental principles of highway driving.

- Road rage, frustration, and weaving are prone to occur.

- While it is true that two lanes are theoretically available to pass no matter what, middle lane requires additional decision making on the drivers part every time. Deciding which lane is best for other traffic on a case by case basis requires a level of situational awareness that many drivers just don't have. When everyone keeps all the way right except to pass, it is much simpler. Move left to pass.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: vdeane on April 12, 2019, 08:49:14 PM
- While it is true that two lanes are theoretically available to pass no matter what, middle lane requires additional decision making on the drivers part every time. Deciding which lane is best for other traffic on a case by case basis requires a level of situational awareness that many drivers just don't have. When everyone keeps all the way right except to pass, it is much simpler. Move left to pass.
Also the additional risk that there might be a slower driver ahead in the right lane.  Having slower traffic keep right increases predictability.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on April 12, 2019, 09:20:43 PM
I see middle-lane camping as a result of seeing the highway as 1 left lane + 2 right lanes.  Those who don't middle-lane camp see the highway as 1 right lane + 2 left lanes.

I look at it as a right lane, a middle lane, and a left lane.   Travel speed in the middle lane should at least not need to be passed in the right lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: yand on April 12, 2019, 10:28:32 PM
The only problem I have with middle lane camping is that technically, it is illegal in some areas.
Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible. In fact, many merge areas will have the sign "through traffic keep left" because that's just a good idea. Even if you don't meet one of the legal exceptions for being in the left lane right now, chances are sooner or later you will.
The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane.
Vehicles on the left lane cannot physically prevent you from passing on the right. If you have no problem with speeding then you should have no problem passing from the right with care. In fact, from just a cursory search it seems that passing from the right on a multi lane, 1-way road is not really illegal in the US.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 12, 2019, 10:33:50 PM
The only problem I have with middle lane camping is that technically, it is illegal in some areas.
Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible. In fact, many merge areas will have the sign "through traffic keep left" because that's just a good idea. Even if you don't meet one of the legal exceptions for being in the left lane right now, chances are sooner or later you will.
The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane.
Vehicles on the left lane cannot physically prevent you from passing on the right. If you have no problem with speeding then you should have no problem passing from the right with care. In fact, from just a cursory search it seems that passing from the right on a multi lane, 1-way road is not really illegal in the US.

Positioning in the middle lane isn't necessarily more defensive. On sections between exits I'd argue a right lane position is more prudent since you usually have a wide hard shoulder on your right as an escape route, where in the middle lane you're boxed in by the two outer lanes of traffic.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2019, 09:56:21 AM
I do this myself and I often see it where a car will be in the middle lane and a car on the left and right are passing the car in the middle lane. In that situation the car in the middle lane should be in the right lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 13, 2019, 10:14:35 AM
I see middle-lane camping as a result of seeing the highway as 1 left lane + 2 right lanes.  Those who don't middle-lane camp see the highway as 1 right lane + 2 left lanes.
In some states the right lane is designated by statue for slow moving vehicles. That is vehicles moving below the speed limit.  I don't see any issue with speed limit drivers keeping the center lane. Don't like it, you have both lanes to pass in. And when there's more than three lanes, forget it. It makes no sense to say everyone has to stay absolutely to the right.

I'd love for you to find such a law.  I'm quite sure, in all 50 states, that you're not supposed to exceed the speed limit, so I doubt there's laws stating only vehicles moving below the speed limit should be in the right lane.  There's some variations in regards to laws, and there's even some prima facia laws regarding speeds, but the overall riding laws in every state don't allow for driving above the speed limit.


I don't see any issue with speed limit drivers keeping the center lane. Don't like it, you have both lanes to pass in.

Well that's just it - you're seeing two right lanes instead of two left lanes. Therefore, you aren't seeing the issues, but they still exist. The most glaring issues are as follows:

- People bunch up in the left lane to pass, obstructing traffic flow. The left two lanes are now occupied, instead of the right two lanes.

- The fastest drivers become aggravated, because others are needlessly in their way. They have to brake when they wouldn't have otherwise.

- Passing on the right occurs. It is often the fastest traffic that passes on the right, in order to avoid the jammed left lane and get ahead. This creates numerous safety issues and runs contrary to the most fundamental principles of highway driving.

- Road rage, frustration, and weaving are prone to occur.

- While it is true that two lanes are theoretically available to pass no matter what, middle lane requires additional decision making on the drivers part every time. Deciding which lane is best for other traffic on a case by case basis requires a level of situational awareness that many drivers just don't have. When everyone keeps all the way right except to pass, it is much simpler. Move left to pass.

In addition, truckers usually aren't allowed in the left lane.  So the center lane is their passing lane.  If you're driving slowly in the center lane, you're prohibiting truckers from passing, even if they're at or under the speed limit and passing a slower vehicle in the right lane.

Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible. In fact, many merge areas will have the sign "through traffic keep left" because that's just a good idea. Even if you don't meet one of the legal exceptions for being in the left lane right now, chances are sooner or later you will.

I wouldn't say 'many'.  Those signs are definitely the exception to the rule. Also, not sure where you get your definition of defensive driving from, but keeping out of the right lane is not one of them.

The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane.
Vehicles on the left lane cannot physically prevent you from passing on the right. If you have no problem with speeding then you should have no problem passing from the right with care. In fact, from just a cursory search it seems that passing from the right on a multi lane, 1-way road is not really illegal in the US.

What's a requirement for entering the left lane.

And the law is to keep right except to pass.  If you ignore that and feel that you can drive in the left lane becuase you're under the speed limit, then feel free to drink a beer while driving below the speed limit as well.  The speed limit isn't the sole law on the highways, and all laws are seperate and distinct from each other. 
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2019, 10:39:38 AM
Most cops give you 5 over the speed limit. In Michigan on the Interstate highways you can do 10 over and most of the time you're fine. The reason is that they are looking for people going 85 and over and they know they'll get them so they usually leave you alone at 80 mph
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2019, 10:44:04 AM


The only problem I have with middle lane camping is that technically, it is illegal in some areas.
Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible. In fact, many merge areas will have the sign "through traffic keep left" because that's just a good idea. Even if you don't meet one of the legal exceptions for being in the left lane right now, chances are sooner or later you will.
The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane.
Vehicles on the left lane cannot physically prevent you from passing on the right. If you have no problem with speeding then you should have no problem passing from the right with care. In fact, from just a cursory search it seems that passing from the right on a multi lane, 1-way road is not really illegal in the US.

Do that in Michigan and I guarantee you'll be feeling the pressure of being tailgated and angering other motorists. The left lane is the passing lane so go ahead and tell me how you are suppose to pass on the right. From the way you talk you'd be run off the road in Detroit.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 13, 2019, 11:40:48 AM
As a practical matter, on an urban freeway with closely spaced ramps and operating at fairly low LOS, staying in the middle lane is often about limiting the number of lane changes (a safety-critical maneuver) that are motivated by a desire to avoid slow traffic in the right-hand lane.  It often happens that the middle and right lanes alternate in having the faster traffic.

And from an enforcement perspective, it is usually safer to fail to KRETP than to fail to comply with the speed limit.  It takes more time for a police officer to establish that a vehicle is failing to KRETP.  Speeding takes just a spot check with radar and then you are done.  In Wichita, where I live, Kellogg (US 54-400) is the principal crosstown freeway with six through lanes and a 60 limit, and the police routinely write tickets for 80+ while I have never heard of a single ticket being issued for failure to KRETP (which is required by state law in Kansas).  Some people have actually written letters to the Wichita Eagle to specify that on Kellogg, the left lane is for passing, the middle lane is for driving, and the right lane is for entering and exiting.  This is not actually correct in terms of the KRETP law, but under conditions of poor LOS/heavy entering and exiting volumes, a defensive driver will be making heavy enough use of the middle lane that it effectively acts as his or her driving lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 13, 2019, 02:04:50 PM
Some people have actually written letters to the Wichita Eagle to specify that on Kellogg, the left lane is for passing, the middle lane is for driving, and the right lane is for entering and exiting.  This is not actually correct in terms of the KRETP law, but under conditions of poor LOS/heavy entering and exiting volumes, a defensive driver will be making heavy enough use of the middle lane that it effectively acts as his or her driving lane.

I completely agree when it comes to urban freeways with high frequency of exits. However, on rural six lane freeways (I-71 between Cleveland and Columbus, I-95 between Philly and Baltimore, ON-401 between London and Toronto, etc.) entering and exiting traffic does not significantly affect the LOS and conditions are generally free-flowing, therefore drivers should not default to the middle lane.

That is a distinction I have no trouble making, but I wonder if many drivers assume that if traffic volumes warrant six lanes, there will always be enough entering/ exiting traffic to justify their continued presence in the middle lane. There are some cases in suburban or semi-rural areas where it is tough to say whether defaulting to the middle is acceptable.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 13, 2019, 02:25:15 PM
That is a distinction I have no trouble making, but I wonder if many drivers assume that if traffic volumes warrant six lanes, there will always be enough entering/ exiting traffic to justify their continued presence in the middle lane. There are some cases in suburban or semi-rural areas where it is tough to say whether defaulting to the middle is acceptable.

My usual rule of thumb is that if I am in the middle lane when the gap between exits widens and traffic in the right lane speeds up to the point that cars would consistently pass me on the right, I will move right as soon as I can find a gap wide enough to allow me to do it without undue interference with someone else's space cushion.  Most of the time it is a judgment call.  I try to keep things smooth (including no avoidable application of brakes except to disengage cruise control on the daily driver, which has no cruise cancel button) because inviting other drivers to ride their reflexes is usually a recipe for trouble.

Edit:  Another issue that comes into play with heavily used long-distance corridors like Hwy. 401 in Ontario is that stranger drivers often have zero prior route knowledge and thus take much longer than local or "local stranger" drivers to recognize when they have run out of town and should start adhering to KRETP more strictly.  It hardly helps that in places like Cambridge, through traffic is such a high percentage of the total that there is no easily recognizable bulge in traffic going through town.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2019, 03:21:45 PM
I flat out think to myself what in the hell were you thinking when you entered the left lane to move that slow? I think that a lot of people think that the left lane is used to travel in as well. I can't stand that. It especially gets bad once you get south of the I-75/US-23 split in Flint on US-23.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Beltway on April 13, 2019, 04:49:58 PM
I completely agree when it comes to urban freeways with high frequency of exits. However, on rural six lane freeways (I-71 between Cleveland and Columbus, I-95 between Philly and Baltimore, ON-401 between London and Toronto, etc.) entering and exiting traffic does not significantly affect the LOS and conditions are generally free-flowing, therefore drivers should not default to the middle lane.
That is a distinction I have no trouble making, but I wonder if many drivers assume that if traffic volumes warrant six lanes, there will always be enough entering/ exiting traffic to justify their continued presence in the middle lane. There are some cases in suburban or semi-rural areas where it is tough to say whether defaulting to the middle is acceptable.

That is what I was originally referring to, rural and semi-rural 6-lane freeways with widely spaced interchanges (rural spacings of 3 miles more more).  Urban freeways and beltway freeways have closely spaced interchanges and there is reason to try to avoid the right lane during heavy traffic periods.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: yand on April 14, 2019, 05:34:51 PM


The only problem I have with middle lane camping is that technically, it is illegal in some areas.
Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible. In fact, many merge areas will have the sign "through traffic keep left" because that's just a good idea. Even if you don't meet one of the legal exceptions for being in the left lane right now, chances are sooner or later you will.
The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane.
Vehicles on the left lane cannot physically prevent you from passing on the right. If you have no problem with speeding then you should have no problem passing from the right with care. In fact, from just a cursory search it seems that passing from the right on a multi lane, 1-way road is not really illegal in the US.

Do that in Michigan and I guarantee you'll be feeling the pressure of being tailgated and angering other motorists. The left lane is the passing lane so go ahead and tell me how you are suppose to pass on the right. From the way you talk you'd be run off the road in Detroit.

Since you're responding to my entire post I have no idea which specific thing you are responding to. However, everything I've said is defensible.


edit: I had a brain fart, you were obviously referring to passing from the right
If people are bunched up in the middle lane doing 60 in a 65, it is unreasonable to expect traffic in the right lane to also go 60. People who are bunched up in the middle lane aren't going to leave it just to tailgate someone who passed them on the right instead of squeezing through 2 lanes to pass them on the left. On the other hand, driving slower than the speed limit when there's plenty of room to go faster just to obey some European law not enforced (nor even on the books) in much of the US is an excellent way to get tailgated by other cars in the right lane.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: bing101 on April 14, 2019, 07:14:32 PM


I speed up on the freeway when somebody flashes the High beams on me and change lanes immediately to get out of the way though and avoid lane camping and then I go back to the speed limit when I am out of the way.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on April 14, 2019, 10:04:46 PM
I speed up on the freeway when somebody flashes the High beams on me and change lanes immediately to get out of the way though and avoid lane camping and then I go back to the speed limit when I am out of the way.

I do the same thing. Avoids confrontations, minimizes rage. Sure, I have to speed up, but it's either that or be tailgated.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 15, 2019, 01:58:57 PM
In some states the right lane is designated by statue for ... vehicles moving below the speed limit.

Go ahead and cite one single such statute.

Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible.

And it is also defensive driving to keep right when faster drivers approach you from behind.  I don't think anybody on here really complains about staying in the center lane when nobody faster is coming up from behind but, if someone had room to pass you on the right without interfering with those closely-spaced entrances, then you had room to move over and let him by on the correct side.

In Wichita, where I live, Kellogg (US 54-400) is the principal crosstown freeway with six through lanes and a 60 limit, and the police routinely write tickets for 80+ while I have never heard of a single ticket being issued for failure to KRETP (which is required by state law in Kansas). 

The Kansas KRETP statute does not apply on Kellogg, as it is explicitly limited to any "highway located outside the corporate limits of any city".
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 15, 2019, 03:50:14 PM
And it is also defensive driving to keep right when faster drivers approach you from behind.  I don't think anybody on here really complains about staying in the center lane when nobody faster is coming up from behind but, if someone had room to pass you on the right without interfering with those closely-spaced entrances, then you had room to move over and let him by on the correct side.

Appetites for risk differ.  Often enough space will open up behind a platoon on the right that a really impatient following driver can perform a risky slalom maneuver to get in front of me, but that does not obligate me to change lanes at that point if that would result in my tailgating someone else.  I consider myself to have driven successfully for over 25 years (no injury or PDO accidents involving another vehicle) partly because I have never let impatient or aggressive drivers dictate my standards for headway or gap acceptance.

The Kansas KRETP statute does not apply on Kellogg, as it is explicitly limited to any "highway located outside the corporate limits of any city".

Noted--I was not aware of this exclusion.  I actually haven't heard of anyone being ticketed anywhere in Kansas for failing to KRETP.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on April 15, 2019, 06:51:08 PM
I consider myself to have driven successfully for over 25 years (no injury or PDO accidents involving another vehicle) partly because I have never let impatient or aggressive drivers dictate my standards for headway or gap acceptance

Interesting. I very frequently will allow other drivers (chiefly impatient ones) to dictate my movements. Why? I want control of the situation. They are "taking control" in the sense that they are causing me to, at least temporarily, change my behavior, but I'm still in safe control of my vehicle; "safe" being the key word there.

Example: If a fast driver comes up on me doing 90, while I'm passing 60mph traffic to my right at 70, I will speed up to maybe 75 or 80 once they're close to me (so they've noticed that I've sped up), put my blinker on about 5-10 seconds prior to my lane change, and then move over. My actions told the faster driver "I see you, no need to be aggressive or honk"...it's worked every single time I've done it. I've put myself in a position to receive a ticket, but A) a 90mph driver isn't very likely if there's police around, and B) I'd rather pay a ticket, or attempt to talk my way out of a ticket, rather than potentially be involved in a crash caused by the actions of an aggressive driver.

I have seen way too many dashcam videos on YouTube of drivers who think it's funny to get in the way of someone who's driving faster, or drive really slowly to piss someone off...way too often, this leads to close calls or collisions, or at the very least some verbal rage. I honestly don't understand what's funny about playing chicken with 6000 lbs of metal.

Unrelated to above: I'm also very social, a trait I don't see much. I always keep my window down, gesturing often (asking for a lane change, waving, maybe giving the occasional "what the F?" gesture), and sometimes engaging with other drivers...I find drivers are more forgiving once they remember that there's an actual human in the car.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 15, 2019, 07:33:04 PM


The only problem I have with middle lane camping is that technically, it is illegal in some areas.
Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible. In fact, many merge areas will have the sign "through traffic keep left" because that's just a good idea. Even if you don't meet one of the legal exceptions for being in the left lane right now, chances are sooner or later you will.
The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane.
Vehicles on the left lane cannot physically prevent you from passing on the right. If you have no problem with speeding then you should have no problem passing from the right with care. In fact, from just a cursory search it seems that passing from the right on a multi lane, 1-way road is not really illegal in the US.

Do that in Michigan and I guarantee you'll be feeling the pressure of being tailgated and angering other motorists. The left lane is the passing lane so go ahead and tell me how you are suppose to pass on the right. From the way you talk you'd be run off the road in Detroit.

Since you're responding to my entire post I have no idea which specific thing you are responding to. However, everything I've said is defensible.


edit: I had a brain fart, you were obviously referring to passing from the right
If people are bunched up in the middle lane doing 60 in a 65, it is unreasonable to expect traffic in the right lane to also go 60. People who are bunched up in the middle lane aren't going to leave it just to tailgate someone who passed them on the right instead of squeezing through 2 lanes to pass them on the left. On the other hand, driving slower than the speed limit when there's plenty of room to go faster just to obey some European law not enforced (nor even on the books) in much of the US is an excellent way to get tailgated by other cars in the right lane.
Sorry, I meant the part where you said, "The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane." And what I mean is that if traffic is moving most people are going to be going at least 80 mph while you have the slow pokes that'll poke along at 62-65 mph, those drivers do not belong in the left lane but yet they get over there and clog up traffic.

An example in Michigan is south of Joslyn Road I-75 exit 83 the highway becomes eight lanes (four in each direction) and I-75 interchanges with M-24, University Drive, Chrysler Drive, M-59 and Square Lake those five interchanges add a large volume of traffic to I-75 going south so the trick is to get in the left lane as soon as you can and keep it at 80 but go up to 85 if you can and don't see a cop. I don't suggest the 85 mph part if you don't know the area that well. Most of the time there might be a cop around University or Chrysler or at the turn around on the other side of the Adams Road exit. But anyway back on topic, staying in the left lane in this situation helps you pass a lot of traffic that you'd be blended in with only going about 65 mph or 70 at the most. Btw, the Michigan State Police almost never give you a hard time about driving 80 mph on the highways but anything over 80 is risky.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: pdx-wanderer on April 15, 2019, 07:43:36 PM
Quote
Go ahead and cite one single such statute.

CVC 21655 (a) Whenever the Department of Transportation or local authorities with respect to highways under their respective jurisdictions determines upon the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation that the designation of a specific lane or lanes for the travel of vehicles required to travel at reduced speeds would facilitate the safe and orderly movement of traffic, the department or local authority may designate a specific lane or lanes for the travel of vehicles which are subject to the provisions of Section 22406 (vehicles with a 55 mph speed limit) and shall erect signs at reasonable intervals giving notice thereof.

You can find these on the Grapevine and a bunch on I-15 from Cajon Pass north (and probably other places too) with markings of "Truck Lane: Slow Vehicles Only."
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 15, 2019, 08:26:46 PM
Interesting. I very frequently will allow other drivers (chiefly impatient ones) to dictate my movements. Why? I want control of the situation. They are "taking control" in the sense that they are causing me to, at least temporarily, change my behavior, but I'm still in safe control of my vehicle; "safe" being the key word there.

Example: If a fast driver comes up on me doing 90, while I'm passing 60mph traffic to my right at 70, I will speed up to maybe 75 or 80 once they're close to me (so they've noticed that I've sped up), put my blinker on about 5-10 seconds prior to my lane change, and then move over. My actions told the faster driver "I see you, no need to be aggressive or honk"...it's worked every single time I've done it. I've put myself in a position to receive a ticket, but A) a 90mph driver isn't very likely if there's police around, and B) I'd rather pay a ticket, or attempt to talk my way out of a ticket, rather than potentially be involved in a crash caused by the actions of an aggressive driver.

I suspect we are arriving at similar outcomes by different routes.  Personally, I just let slalom drivers do their thing--once they commit to the maneuver (and I can usually tell when they have done so), I feel it is less risky to feed them more space in which they can (hopefully) carry out the maneuver more safely than to try to cut them off.  On occasion I add some extra speed to complete overtakes when there is someone riding my tail, but I prefer not to initiate the maneuver if I can see that a really fast driver will be on my tail before I am able to finish.  If this means I am crawling in the right lane at 60 in a 70 while traffic just over the horizon is stacked up in the left lane waiting for an elephant race to finish, so be it.

I have seen way too many dashcam videos on YouTube of drivers who think it's funny to get in the way of someone who's driving faster, or drive really slowly to piss someone off...way too often, this leads to close calls or collisions, or at the very least some verbal rage. I honestly don't understand what's funny about playing chicken with 6000 lbs of metal.

I don't think I'm seeing those YouTubes.  The ones I generally see (through Facebook shares and the like) feature aggressive overtakers wiping out further up the road.  I don't think this is an uplifting genre either.

As I plan overtaking maneuvers, I try to keep in mind that if anything I do precipitates a road-rage incident (which so far has not happened to me), it is to my advantage to be behind the vehicle whose driver I suspect would be the aggressor.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: yand on April 15, 2019, 08:38:17 PM
Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible.

And it is also defensive driving to keep right when faster drivers approach you from behind.  I don't think anybody on here really complains about staying in the center lane when nobody faster is coming up from behind but, if someone had room to pass you on the right without interfering with those closely-spaced entrances, then you had room to move over and let him by on the correct side.

The problem with moving into the right lane when there is space is of course, things change and the middle lane can become unavailable when you want it.

I'm paranoid about breaking traffic laws so I personally keep right and obey speed limits as much as I can. In heavier traffic this often results in me passing cars from the right, which is legal and doesn't bother me in the slightest.

However, I haven't forgotten how great middle lane camping is. There are so many benefits: not being affected by lane endings, being in a convenient position to take left or right spurs/exits. On mountains without marked climbing lanes, truckers don't pass you at 100mph then move back into the right lane for the slow climb.

It is my position that any vehicle able to travel at the speed limit is not being impeded. De-escalation is indeed defensive driving, but nobody should be obligated to move over for vehicles that are illegally speeding. If the laws were better enforced, then nobody would be passing me at a speed obviously outside of the margin of error in the first place.

Many people treat the middle lane as a travel lane in their daily commutes, getting passed on the right, without incident. If I made the laws, through traffic travelling near the speed limit would always be allowed to take the middle lane, regardless of cars coming from behind.



The only problem I have with middle lane camping is that technically, it is illegal in some areas.
Between all the inadequate merge areas and closely spaced exits, it is just defensive driving to keep out of the right lane when possible. In fact, many merge areas will have the sign "through traffic keep left" because that's just a good idea. Even if you don't meet one of the legal exceptions for being in the left lane right now, chances are sooner or later you will.
The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane.
Vehicles on the left lane cannot physically prevent you from passing on the right. If you have no problem with speeding then you should have no problem passing from the right with care. In fact, from just a cursory search it seems that passing from the right on a multi lane, 1-way road is not really illegal in the US.

Do that in Michigan and I guarantee you'll be feeling the pressure of being tailgated and angering other motorists. The left lane is the passing lane so go ahead and tell me how you are suppose to pass on the right. From the way you talk you'd be run off the road in Detroit.

Since you're responding to my entire post I have no idea which specific thing you are responding to. However, everything I've said is defensible.


edit: I had a brain fart, you were obviously referring to passing from the right
Sorry, I meant the part where you said, "The left lane is for driving at or below the speed limit, as long as you meet the requirements for entering the left lane." And what I mean is that if traffic is moving most people are going to be going at least 80 mph while you have the slow pokes that'll poke along at 62-65 mph, those drivers do not belong in the left lane but yet they get over there and clog up traffic.

An example in Michigan is south of Joslyn Road I-75 exit 83 the highway becomes eight lanes (four in each direction) and I-75 interchanges with M-24, University Drive, Chrysler Drive, M-59 and Square Lake those five interchanges add a large volume of traffic to I-75 going south so the trick is to get in the left lane as soon as you can and keep it at 80 but go up to 85 if you can and don't see a cop. I don't suggest the 85 mph part if you don't know the area that well. Most of the time there might be a cop around University or Chrysler or at the turn around on the other side of the Adams Road exit. But anyway back on topic, staying in the left lane in this situation helps you pass a lot of traffic that you'd be blended in with only going about 65 mph or 70 at the most. Btw, the Michigan State Police almost never give you a hard time about driving 80 mph on the highways but anything over 80 is risky.

If they're not passing anyone, then they don't meet the requirements for entering the left lane. If they're passing someone at a reasonable speed, then they belong in the left lane. I've done plenty of passes at the speed limit (I'll speed a little bit to maintain at least a ~3mph speed differential to the car being passed if someone is behind me), and I do get tailgated when I do this and it isn't a big deal.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 15, 2019, 10:44:52 PM
In some states the right lane is designated by statue for ... vehicles moving below the speed limit.

Go ahead and cite one single such statute.
CGS Sec. 14-230. Driving in right-hand lane. (a) Upon all highways, each vehicle, other than a vehicle described in subsection (c) of this section, shall be driven upon the right, except (1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction, (2) when overtaking and passing pedestrians, parked or standing vehicles, animals, bicycles, electric bicycles, mopeds, scooters, vehicles moving at a slow speed, as defined in section 14-220, or obstructions on the right side of the highway, (3) when the right side of a highway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair, (4) on a highway divided into three or more marked lanes for traffic, or (5) on a highway designated and signposted for one-way traffic.

(b) Except as provided in subsection (c) of this section, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic shall be driven in the right-hand lane available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the highway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(c) Any vehicle which exceeds the maximum width limitations specified in subdivision (1) of subsection (a) of section 14-262 and operates on an interstate highway with a special permit issued by the Commissioner of Transportation under the provisions of section 14-270, shall be driven in the extreme right lane of such highway, except (1) when such special permit authorizes operation in a traffic lane other than the extreme right lane, (2) when overtaking and passing parked vehicles, animals or obstructions on the right side of such highway, (3) when the right side of such highway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair, or (4) at such locations where access to or egress from such highway is provided on the left.

(d) Violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

*Please note the bolded in subsection b.  If you are moving with the flow of traffic you can stay in whatever lane your in.  Only slower moving vehicles must absolutely keep right except to pass.

CGS Sec. 14-233. Passing on right. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only when conditions permit such movement in safety and under the following conditions: (1) When the vehicle overtaken is making or has signified the intention to make a left turn; (2) when lines of vehicles traveling in the same direction in adjoining traffic lanes have come to a stop or have reduced their speed; (3) upon a one-way street free from obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles; (4) upon a limited access highway or parkway free from obstructions with three or more lanes provided for traffic in one direction. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the pavement or main-traveled portion of the highway except where lane designations, signs, signals or markings provide for such movement. Violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

There has been a push recently in the General Assembly to eliminate this exception.
We also don't have a statute for "impeding the flow of traffic".  Sec 14-220 covers slow moving vehicles so I would assume that's what is used.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 15, 2019, 10:51:35 PM
In some states the right lane is designated by statue for ... vehicles moving below the speed limit.

Go ahead and cite one single such statute.
CGS Sec. 14-230. Driving in right-hand lane. (a) Upon all highways, each vehicle, other than a vehicle described in subsection (c) of this section, shall be driven upon the right, except (1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction, (2) when overtaking and passing pedestrians, parked or standing vehicles, animals, bicycles, electric bicycles, mopeds, scooters, vehicles moving at a slow speed, as defined in section 14-220, or obstructions on the right side of the highway, (3) when the right side of a highway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair, (4) on a highway divided into three or more marked lanes for traffic, or (5) on a highway designated and signposted for one-way traffic.

(b) Except as provided in subsection (c) of this section, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic shall be driven in the right-hand lane available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the highway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(c) Any vehicle which exceeds the maximum width limitations specified in subdivision (1) of subsection (a) of section 14-262 and operates on an interstate highway with a special permit issued by the Commissioner of Transportation under the provisions of section 14-270, shall be driven in the extreme right lane of such highway, except (1) when such special permit authorizes operation in a traffic lane other than the extreme right lane, (2) when overtaking and passing parked vehicles, animals or obstructions on the right side of such highway, (3) when the right side of such highway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair, or (4) at such locations where access to or egress from such highway is provided on the left.

(d) Violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

*Please note the bolded in subsection b.  If you are moving with the flow of traffic you can stay in whatever lane your in.  Only slower moving vehicles must absolutely keep right except to pass.

CGS Sec. 14-233. Passing on right. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only when conditions permit such movement in safety and under the following conditions: (1) When the vehicle overtaken is making or has signified the intention to make a left turn; (2) when lines of vehicles traveling in the same direction in adjoining traffic lanes have come to a stop or have reduced their speed; (3) upon a one-way street free from obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles; (4) upon a limited access highway or parkway free from obstructions with three or more lanes provided for traffic in one direction. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the pavement or main-traveled portion of the highway except where lane designations, signs, signals or markings provide for such movement. Violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

There has been a push recently in the General Assembly to eliminate this exception.

At no point did it state anything about below the speed limit. It simply stated below the normal speed of traffic.  If the limit is 65, traffic is flowing at 80 mph and you're going 75, you're to keep to the right. Likewise, if traffic is flowing at 60 mph and you're going 50 mph, keep to the right.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 15, 2019, 11:00:57 PM
In some states the right lane is designated by statue for ... vehicles moving below the speed limit.

Go ahead and cite one single such statute.
CGS Sec. 14-230. Driving in right-hand lane. (a) Upon all highways, each vehicle, other than a vehicle described in subsection (c) of this section, shall be driven upon the right, except (1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction, (2) when overtaking and passing pedestrians, parked or standing vehicles, animals, bicycles, electric bicycles, mopeds, scooters, vehicles moving at a slow speed, as defined in section 14-220, or obstructions on the right side of the highway, (3) when the right side of a highway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair, (4) on a highway divided into three or more marked lanes for traffic, or (5) on a highway designated and signposted for one-way traffic.

(b) Except as provided in subsection (c) of this section, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic shall be driven in the right-hand lane available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the highway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(c) Any vehicle which exceeds the maximum width limitations specified in subdivision (1) of subsection (a) of section 14-262 and operates on an interstate highway with a special permit issued by the Commissioner of Transportation under the provisions of section 14-270, shall be driven in the extreme right lane of such highway, except (1) when such special permit authorizes operation in a traffic lane other than the extreme right lane, (2) when overtaking and passing parked vehicles, animals or obstructions on the right side of such highway, (3) when the right side of such highway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair, or (4) at such locations where access to or egress from such highway is provided on the left.

(d) Violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

*Please note the bolded in subsection b.  If you are moving with the flow of traffic you can stay in whatever lane your in.  Only slower moving vehicles must absolutely keep right except to pass.

CGS Sec. 14-233. Passing on right. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only when conditions permit such movement in safety and under the following conditions: (1) When the vehicle overtaken is making or has signified the intention to make a left turn; (2) when lines of vehicles traveling in the same direction in adjoining traffic lanes have come to a stop or have reduced their speed; (3) upon a one-way street free from obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles; (4) upon a limited access highway or parkway free from obstructions with three or more lanes provided for traffic in one direction. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the pavement or main-traveled portion of the highway except where lane designations, signs, signals or markings provide for such movement. Violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

There has been a push recently in the General Assembly to eliminate this exception.

At no point did it state anything about below the speed limit. It simply stated below the normal speed of traffic.  If the limit is 65, traffic is flowing at 80 mph and you're going 75, you're to keep to the right. Likewise, if traffic is flowing at 60 mph and you're going 50 mph, keep to the right.

This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 16, 2019, 05:59:06 AM
Nope when your doing that you are impeding the flow of traffic which is against the law.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 16, 2019, 06:11:06 AM
This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.

If the entire highway is somehow moving at the same speed, you are correct.  However, that doesn't happen.  If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: yand on April 16, 2019, 07:23:28 AM
This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.

If the entire highway is somehow moving at the same speed, you are correct.  However, that doesn't happen.  If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right.

"If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right."
That's not an absolute rule. Suppose you, a speed limit abiding driver, move to the left lane to accommodate the merge. Before you are able to move back to the right lane, the merged cars accelerate to above the speed limit. Cars behind them closely follow, all trying to pass you on the right. If cars in the right lane are are failing to maintain a sufficient gap needed for merging back to the right lane without tailgating or being tailgated, then you are not in violation of KRETP regardless of whether you are passing or being passed.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Occidental Tourist on April 16, 2019, 10:19:39 AM
This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.

If the entire highway is somehow moving at the same speed, you are correct.  However, that doesn't happen.  If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right.
Found the person who has never driven a multi-lane urban freeway in moderate-to-heavy traffic.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1 on April 16, 2019, 10:48:41 AM
You can't violate a law because of another driver's actions. Passing on the right should still be avoided, but the blame depends on the situation.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: US 89 on April 16, 2019, 11:08:08 AM
Even in rural areas, there's at least one situation where passing on the right is probably OK, and that's at a merge. As a driver in the right lane of a rural freeway, if there's nobody in the left lane the proper thing to do is move over to allow them to merge without any difficulty. If they subsequently pass you before you have an opportunity to move back, I see no fault in that on either side.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2019, 02:54:32 PM

In some states the right lane is designated by statue for ... vehicles moving below the speed limit.

Go ahead and cite one single such statute.



CVC 21655 (a) Whenever the Department of Transportation or local authorities with respect to highways under their respective jurisdictions determines upon the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation that the designation of a specific lane or lanes for the travel of vehicles required to travel at reduced speeds would facilitate the safe and orderly movement of traffic, the department or local authority may designate a specific lane or lanes for the travel of vehicles which are subject to the provisions of Section 22406 (vehicles with a 55 mph speed limit) and shall erect signs at reasonable intervals giving notice thereof.

You can find these on the Grapevine and a bunch on I-15 from Cajon Pass north (and probably other places too) with markings of "Truck Lane: Slow Vehicles Only."

Then the correct assertion should be:  "In some states there is a statute which allows for specific places to be signed such that the right lane is for vehicles moving below the speed limit."  That is not the same thing as what was asserted.  In fact, even then, it might not be true, because all traffic is legally obligated to drive below the speed limit:  that's what a speed limit is, after all..  Moreover, section 21655(b), which you did not cite, restricts such slow traffic (that bound by a statutory 55mph speed limit) to use only that designated lane.  It does not actually prohibit other vehicles from using it.  (Such a prohibition might exist elsewhere in the statutes, or it might be how a court has decided the signs should be interpreted.)

CGS Sec. 14-230. Driving in right-hand lane. (a) Upon all highways, each vehicle, other than a vehicle described in subsection (c) of this section, shall be driven upon the right, except (1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction, (2) when overtaking and passing pedestrians, parked or standing vehicles, animals, bicycles, electric bicycles, mopeds, scooters, vehicles moving at a slow speed, as defined in section 14-220, or obstructions on the right side of the highway, (3) when the right side of a highway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair, (4) on a highway divided into three or more marked lanes for traffic, or (5) on a highway designated and signposted for one-way traffic.

(b) Except as provided in subsection (c) of this section, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic shall be driven in the right-hand lane available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the highway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(c) Any vehicle which exceeds the maximum width limitations specified in subdivision (1) of subsection (a) of section 14-262 and operates on an interstate highway with a special permit issued by the Commissioner of Transportation under the provisions of section 14-270, shall be driven in the extreme right lane of such highway, except (1) when such special permit authorizes operation in a traffic lane other than the extreme right lane, (2) when overtaking and passing parked vehicles, animals or obstructions on the right side of such highway, (3) when the right side of such highway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair, or (4) at such locations where access to or egress from such highway is provided on the left.

(d) Violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

...

CGS Sec. 14-233. Passing on right. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only when conditions permit such movement in safety and under the following conditions: (1) When the vehicle overtaken is making or has signified the intention to make a left turn; (2) when lines of vehicles traveling in the same direction in adjoining traffic lanes have come to a stop or have reduced their speed; (3) upon a one-way street free from obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles; (4) upon a limited access highway or parkway free from obstructions with three or more lanes provided for traffic in one direction. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the pavement or main-traveled portion of the highway except where lane designations, signs, signals or markings provide for such movement. Violation of any provision of this section shall be an infraction.

There has been a push recently in the General Assembly to eliminate this exception.
We also don't have a statute for "impeding the flow of traffic".  Sec 14-220 covers slow moving vehicles so I would assume that's what is used.

None of that says anything about vehicles driving below the speed limit.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 16, 2019, 03:05:46 PM
This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.

If the entire highway is somehow moving at the same speed, you are correct.  However, that doesn't happen.  If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right.
Found the person who has never driven a multi-lane urban freeway in moderate-to-heavy traffic.

Stuck in 14 mile traffic congestion situations every day.  But feel free to think what you want to think.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on April 16, 2019, 03:11:46 PM
Then the correct assertion should be:  "In some states there is a statute which allows for specific places to be signed such that the right lane is for vehicles moving below the speed limit."  That is not the same thing as what was asserted.  In fact, even then, it might not be true, because all traffic is legally obligated to drive below the speed limit:  that's what a speed limit is, after all..

My understanding has always been that one must not drive below the speed limit (unless traffic is moving at a speed below the limit), nor above the limit (unless passing on a two lane road). So if the limit was 60, you can legally only travel at 60. You may go slower for safety reasons, or when traffic is moving slower; otherwise, you could be cited for "impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic". WA's law does not discriminate on left or right lanes for "impeding flow", except that all traffic must keep right except when passing, merging left to allow traffic to merge, or when turning left.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1 on April 16, 2019, 03:18:16 PM
In most situations, driving below the speed limit by more than a few miles per hour is impeding traffic. However, I can think of two situations where it's not: if the speed limit is high enough (such as 85 mph on TX 130), or if you're the only car on the road.

nor above the limit (unless passing on a two lane road)

The passing exception only applies in a few states. Even though you're used to it, most of the country does not have that exception.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 16, 2019, 03:20:44 PM
This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.

If the entire highway is somehow moving at the same speed, you are correct.  However, that doesn't happen.  If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right.

"If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right."
That's not an absolute rule. Suppose you, a speed limit abiding driver, move to the left lane to accommodate the merge. Before you are able to move back to the right lane, the merged cars accelerate to above the speed limit. Cars behind them closely follow, all trying to pass you on the right. If cars in the right lane are are failing to maintain a sufficient gap needed for merging back to the right lane without tailgating or being tailgated, then you are not in violation of KRETP regardless of whether you are passing or being passed.

First of all - "a speed limit abiding driver" is just one of many laws on the highway.  It's by far not the only law.  Honestly, too much focus is put on that one law.  Why not mention the "turn signal abiding driver" or the "not drinking a beer while smoking a joint while driving abiding driver".

I can get your first point, that I could move over and suddenly the guy entering the highway speeds up and passes me.  Can't do much about that.  But suddenly everyone on the highway is passing me on the right?  Sounds like I shouldn't have moved over to the left lane in the first place, as now I'm being tailgated.  If you were able to move to the left lane and suddenly can't move to the right lane, then I kinda question that ability to move to the left lane in the first place.  Remember - the speed limit is a limit, not a mandate.  If it's better for the overall traffic flow for me to slow down, I should do that.  If I put myself in a position where everyone is passing me on the right, then you're just telling the entire highway that you're not interested in driving defensively, but rather that you own the highway.

I drive 41 miles to work every morning.  And 41 miles back home every afternoon.  I pass by about 20 interchanges each way.  I see a whole lot of this shit going on every day.  And the absolute vast majority of the time the slow driver failing to keep right is at fault.  When there are clear gaps to move over, they don't.  There's people that move over from the acceleration lane to the middle lane before the acceleration lane ends...and no traffic in front of them.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: yand on April 16, 2019, 04:21:02 PM
This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.

If the entire highway is somehow moving at the same speed, you are correct.  However, that doesn't happen.  If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right.

"If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right."
That's not an absolute rule. Suppose you, a speed limit abiding driver, move to the left lane to accommodate the merge. Before you are able to move back to the right lane, the merged cars accelerate to above the speed limit. Cars behind them closely follow, all trying to pass you on the right. If cars in the right lane are are failing to maintain a sufficient gap needed for merging back to the right lane without tailgating or being tailgated, then you are not in violation of KRETP regardless of whether you are passing or being passed.

First of all - "a speed limit abiding driver" is just one of many laws on the highway.  It's by far not the only law.  Honestly, too much focus is put on that one law.  Why not mention the "turn signal abiding driver" or the "not drinking a beer while smoking a joint while driving abiding driver".
You do understand I specify speed limit abiding driver, because if you didn't obey the speed limit you could just speed up to overtake and move back to the right lane. You can do this with or without being impaired, with or without using your turn signal. The speed limit is the only relevant law out of the 3.

I can get your first point, that I could move over and suddenly the guy entering the highway speeds up and passes me.  Can't do much about that.  But suddenly everyone on the highway is passing me on the right?  Sounds like I shouldn't have moved over to the left lane in the first place, as now I'm being tailgated.  If you were able to move to the left lane and suddenly can't move to the right lane, then I kinda question that ability to move to the left lane in the first place. 

Whether moving to the left lane is justifiable only depends on whether 1) you meet the criteria for a safe lane change, and 2) you meet one of the exceptions of the keep right rule.

If cars are bunched up and passing you on the right, then it's their fault as they should be obeying the speed limit and maintaining a safe following distance.

Let's say cars in the right lane are also at the speed limit and maintaining a safe 2 second following distance - you still wouldn't be able to move back without slowing down to re-establish following distance and forcing the car behind you to re-establish following distance as well. In this case, you are blocked from the right lane due to nobody's fault.

Remember - the speed limit is a limit, not a mandate.  If it's better for the overall traffic flow for me to slow down, I should do that.  If I put myself in a position where everyone is passing me on the right, then you're just telling the entire highway that you're not interested in driving defensively, but rather that you own the highway.
I should inconvenience myself just so illegal speeders can get to their destination sooner? Maybe not. Any vehicle able to travel at their maximum legal speed is not being impeded. Gains in traffic flow as a result of normalized violations (which facilitate selective enforcement and using traffic enforcement as a revenue source) are unjust and I refuse to participate unless I'm in a big hurry. If you want traffic to flow faster than the current speed limit, participate in the political process to raise the speed limits.

I drive 41 miles to work every morning.  And 41 miles back home every afternoon.  I pass by about 20 interchanges each way.  I see a whole lot of this shit going on every day.  And the absolute vast majority of the time the slow driver failing to keep right is at fault.  When there are clear gaps to move over, they don't.  There's people that move over from the acceleration lane to the middle lane before the acceleration lane ends...and no traffic in front of them.
I've listed the advantages of middle lane hogging in my previous reply. Middle lane hogging could reduce traffic flow, but that is just another example of safety having an inverse relation to efficiency. As I say, I don't hog the middle lane myself, but I do advocate for it, and I will when it is legal.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2019, 04:42:41 PM
My understanding has always been that one must not drive below the speed limit (unless traffic is moving at a speed below the limit), nor above the limit (unless passing on a two lane road). So if the limit was 60, you can legally only travel at 60. You may go slower for safety reasons, or when traffic is moving slower; otherwise, you could be cited for "impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic".

That's never been my understanding.  In fact, it's plainly wrong if you think about it:  what about an 18-wheeler whose rig is governed at 58 mph driving on an 80mph Interstate in Utah?  What about someone in a Suzuki Samurai who can barely maintain 65 mph with a tail wind on a good day?  Heck, I used to drive an Isuzu cab-over box truck that, with the pedal all the way to the floor on a downhill with a tail wind, could sometimes just barely break 73 mph.

Impeding traffic means actually preventing them from moving ahead normally.  It doesn't mean tractors can't drive on county highways, truckers with governors can't use the freeway, or any such thing.

In most situations, driving below the speed limit by more than a few miles per hour is impeding traffic.

No, not really.  If a car is driving 50 mph on a road signed at 60 mph, I am free to either drive 50 mph or pass him at 59 mph.  Now, if I choose to pass him and he tries to block me doing so, then he would be impeding me.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 16, 2019, 04:48:36 PM
Note taken that "slowing down slightly" is never considered.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 16, 2019, 04:50:00 PM
Gains in traffic flow as a result of normalized violations (which facilitate selective enforcement and using traffic enforcement as a revenue source) are unjust and I refuse to participate unless I'm in a big hurry.

Ah, so now the truth comes out.

"Laws are great until they inconvenience me."
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: yand on April 16, 2019, 04:57:49 PM
Gains in traffic flow as a result of normalized violations (which facilitate selective enforcement and using traffic enforcement as a revenue source) are unjust and I refuse to participate unless I'm in a big hurry.

Ah, so now the truth comes out. It really is all about you.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've intentionally driven the regular speed of traffic, due to running late, in the past 12 months.
And yeah, I don't like cops having any excuse to pull me over at all. It is all about me.

Note taken that "slowing down slightly" is never considered.
Slowing down slightly, or significantly, is what happens if the leftward lane is not available.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 16, 2019, 07:18:51 PM
This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.

If the entire highway is somehow moving at the same speed, you are correct.  However, that doesn't happen.  If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right.

"If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right."
That's not an absolute rule. Suppose you, a speed limit abiding driver, move to the left lane to accommodate the merge. Before you are able to move back to the right lane, the merged cars accelerate to above the speed limit. Cars behind them closely follow, all trying to pass you on the right. If cars in the right lane are are failing to maintain a sufficient gap needed for merging back to the right lane without tailgating or being tailgated, then you are not in violation of KRETP regardless of whether you are passing or being passed.

First of all - "a speed limit abiding driver" is just one of many laws on the highway.  It's by far not the only law.  Honestly, too much focus is put on that one law.  Why not mention the "turn signal abiding driver" or the "not drinking a beer while smoking a joint while driving abiding driver".

I can get your first point, that I could move over and suddenly the guy entering the highway speeds up and passes me.  Can't do much about that.  But suddenly everyone on the highway is passing me on the right?  Sounds like I shouldn't have moved over to the left lane in the first place, as now I'm being tailgated.  If you were able to move to the left lane and suddenly can't move to the right lane, then I kinda question that ability to move to the left lane in the first place.  Remember - the speed limit is a limit, not a mandate.  If it's better for the overall traffic flow for me to slow down, I should do that.  If I put myself in a position where everyone is passing me on the right, then you're just telling the entire highway that you're not interested in driving defensively, but rather that you own the highway.

I drive 41 miles to work every morning.  And 41 miles back home every afternoon.  I pass by about 20 interchanges each way.  I see a whole lot of this shit going on every day.  And the absolute vast majority of the time the slow driver failing to keep right is at fault.  When there are clear gaps to move over, they don't.  There's people that move over from the acceleration lane to the middle lane before the acceleration lane ends...and no traffic in front of them.
I agree with you 100% and have this same problem and say the same thing you do. I always question why someone even gets into the left lane in the first place. It seems to me that a lot of people seem to think that the left lane can be used like the other lane or lanes.

I remember one incident about a year ago I was on NB I-75 about 30 miles north of Detroit and in the middle lane going with the flow of traffic and then suddenly traffic for no reason at all starts moving about 45 mph all because of one slow driver.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 16, 2019, 07:27:22 PM

In some states the right lane is designated by statue for ... vehicles moving below the speed limit.

Go ahead and cite one single such statute.



None of that says anything about vehicles driving below the speed limit.

I've already addressed that and said I was wrong.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2019, 07:32:03 PM
I've already addressed that and said I was wrong.

Ah.  Apparently "This is true but my point still stands" is equivalent to "I was wrong".

M'bad.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: 1995hoo on April 16, 2019, 09:12:01 PM
Then the correct assertion should be:  "In some states there is a statute which allows for specific places to be signed such that the right lane is for vehicles moving below the speed limit."  That is not the same thing as what was asserted.  In fact, even then, it might not be true, because all traffic is legally obligated to drive below the speed limit:  that's what a speed limit is, after all..

My understanding has always been that one must not drive below the speed limit (unless traffic is moving at a speed below the limit), nor above the limit (unless passing on a two lane road). So if the limit was 60, you can legally only travel at 60. You may go slower for safety reasons, or when traffic is moving slower; otherwise, you could be cited for "impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic". WA's law does not discriminate on left or right lanes for "impeding flow", except that all traffic must keep right except when passing, merging left to allow traffic to merge, or when turning left.

I'm astonished by this idea, especially because some roads have both maximum and minimum speed limits posted (two examples: South Carolina Interstates frequently have signs giving a speed limit of 70 mph and a minimum of 45, and Quebec's autoroutes often have signs saying "Maximum 100/60 Minimum"). It seems to me that if there's a minimum posted, clearly it must be OK to drive slower than the speed limit as long as you don't go below the minimum.

In Virginia we don't have numeric minimums, although the statute allows them. Instead, the general rule applies: "No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law." The word "reasonable" is an important part of this provision. Without it, I could see someone arguing that I drive at an unlawfully slow speed on the Beltway when I go 65 mph in a 55 zone where most people do 70–80. But when the speed limit is posted at 55, it's "unreasonable" as a matter of law to suggest 65 is unlawfully slow. (I make a point of staying out of the left lane whenever possible, BTW, recognizing that urban traffic is a different situation from rural Interstates.)

Of course, I had a college roommate who referred to the number on the speed limit sign as "the minimum."
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: pdx-wanderer on April 16, 2019, 10:35:18 PM
Quote
Then the correct assertion should be:  "In some states there is a statute which allows for specific places to be signed such that the right lane is for vehicles moving below the speed limit."  That is not the same thing as what was asserted.  In fact, even then, it might not be true, because all traffic is legally obligated to drive below the speed limit:  that's what a speed limit is, after all..  Moreover, section 21655(b), which you did not cite, restricts such slow traffic (that bound by a statutory 55mph speed limit) to use only that designated lane.  It does not actually prohibit other vehicles from using it.  (Such a prohibition might exist elsewhere in the statutes, or it might be how a court has decided the signs should be interpreted.)

Well having "only" on a black and white sign seems pretty clear that vehicles moving at a normal speed shouldn't be there. Black and white signs at other truck only lanes such as at the 5/99 junction and Sylmar do not specifically state they are only for trucks, but these lanes do. I don't see why else they'd bother to put "only" on the signs. The latter part of section (b) only refers to spots where such lanes have not been designated where 55 mph vehicles can use either of the right two lanes, but are not allowed any farther to the left; there's "Trucks OK" signs above the third-from-right lane in some urban areas when the right lane is clogged with merging and exiting traffic.

There probably is one but I can't think of another similar instance.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 17, 2019, 09:47:40 AM
In most situations, driving below the speed limit by more than a few miles per hour is impeding traffic.
No, not really.  If a car is driving 50 mph on a road signed at 60 mph, I am free to either drive 50 mph or pass him at 59 mph.  Now, if I choose to pass him and he tries to block me doing so, then he would be impeding me.

Given free flowing traffic on a two lane road with no passing allowed, I would certainly consider anyone driving below the limit to be impeding traffic.

In fact, there are a number of roads that come to mind where I would consider anyone doing less than 10 over the limit to be impeding traffic - mostly in cases of exceptionally low speed limits.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 17, 2019, 11:41:58 AM
It looks to me like the statutory language people are citing relative to "slow vehicle only" lanes on the right is designed to address climbing lanes.  The giveaway is that, at least in California, they are required to be explicitly signed.

As regards the exchange upthread about the legality respectively of driving over or under the speed limit, the difference is that driving over is a strict-liability offense in most states, while driving under is subject to a reasonableness test (in the absence of any minimum speed limits).  I personally will not hesitate to drive well under the speed limit if that is what I need to do to preserve an adequate forward space cushion.  For example, I found myself on I-55 near Lexington, Illinois a couple of summers ago when multiple 18-wheelers decided to stage an elephant race.  The speed limit was 70, so I just set my cruise control at 60 (low enough to ensure I wasn't catching up with the slowest truck in the clog) and took it easy for fifteen minutes or so while impatient drivers stacked up in the left lane.  Once the truckers sorted themselves out and the four-wheelers finished their own overtakes, I passed them at 80+.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 17, 2019, 12:14:13 PM
Well having "only" on a black and white sign seems pretty clear that vehicles moving at a normal speed shouldn't be there.

But that all depends on what is meant by "slow".  Because all traffic is legally obligated to drive at the speed limit or slower, then the speed limit cannot be the determining factor in what vehicles the right lane is for.  What about a '71 Dodge Ram with the cargo bed fully loaded and the driver can't get up above 50 mph?  What about a car that had one bank of the ignition coil go out and isn't firing on all cylinders?  Etc.

Black and white signs at other truck only lanes such as at the 5/99 junction and Sylmar do not specifically state they are only for trucks, but these lanes do. I don't see why else they'd bother to put "only" on the signs.

You said the signs say "TRUCK LANE" and "SLOW VEHICLES ONLY" — not "TRUCKS ONLY".  In other places, routes have black and white signs that say "TRUCK ROUTE", yet other vehicles are perfectly free to drive on those roads.



Given free flowing traffic on a two lane road with no passing allowed, I would certainly consider anyone driving below the limit to be impeding traffic.

It's a good thing you don't make the laws, then, because it would be impossible to obey the speed limit without impeding traffic under that sort or reasoning.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 17, 2019, 12:25:59 PM
It looks to me like the statutory language people are citing relative to "slow vehicle only" lanes on the right is designed to address climbing lanes.  The giveaway is that, at least in California, they are required to be explicitly signed.

As regards the exchange upthread about the legality respectively of driving over or under the speed limit, the difference is that driving over is a strict-liability offense in most states, while driving under is subject to a reasonableness test (in the absence of any minimum speed limits).  I personally will not hesitate to drive well under the speed limit if that is what I need to do to preserve an adequate forward space cushion.  For example, I found myself on I-55 near Lexington, Illinois a couple of summers ago when multiple 18-wheelers decided to stage an elephant race.  The speed limit was 70, so I just set my cruise control at 60 (low enough to ensure I wasn't catching up with the slowest truck in the clog) and took it easy for fifteen minutes or so while impatient drivers stacked up in the left lane.  Once the truckers sorted themselves out and the four-wheelers finished their own overtakes, I passed them at 80+.

Were you driving 60 in a 70 in the left lane or the right lane?

Either way, intentionally congesting traffic for your own benefit seems to be an obvious case of obstructing traffic.

Again, another person that doesn't care about the laws that they find inconvenient.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 17, 2019, 12:40:39 PM

It looks to me like the statutory language people are citing relative to "slow vehicle only" lanes on the right is designed to address climbing lanes.  The giveaway is that, at least in California, they are required to be explicitly signed.

As regards the exchange upthread about the legality respectively of driving over or under the speed limit, the difference is that driving over is a strict-liability offense in most states, while driving under is subject to a reasonableness test (in the absence of any minimum speed limits).  I personally will not hesitate to drive well under the speed limit if that is what I need to do to preserve an adequate forward space cushion.  For example, I found myself on I-55 near Lexington, Illinois a couple of summers ago when multiple 18-wheelers decided to stage an elephant race.  The speed limit was 70, so I just set my cruise control at 60 (low enough to ensure I wasn't catching up with the slowest truck in the clog) and took it easy for fifteen minutes or so while impatient drivers stacked up in the left lane.  Once the truckers sorted themselves out and the four-wheelers finished their own overtakes, I passed them at 80+.

Were you driving 60 in a 70 in the left lane or the right lane?

Either way, intentionally congesting traffic for your own benefit seems to be an obvious case of obstructing traffic.

Again, another person that doesn't care about the laws that they find inconvenient.

I interpreted his story as two truckers side-by-side going roughly 60 mph on a highway signed for 70 mph.  Traffic stacked up in the left lane behind the ever-so-slightly-faster truck but JNW stayed in the right lane, matching the trucks' speed, until the left lane was clear enough to pass without tailgating someone or encouraging anyone else to tailgate him.  Then, when the left lane opened up, he passed the trucks at the prevailing speed of traffic, then went back to his usual cruising speed once he was back in the right lane again.

That's reasonable behavior, if I interpreted it correctly.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 17, 2019, 01:22:15 PM
I interpreted his story as two truckers side-by-side going roughly 60 mph on a highway signed for 70 mph.  Traffic stacked up in the left lane behind the ever-so-slightly-faster truck but JNW stayed in the right lane, matching the trucks' speed, until the left lane was clear enough to pass without tailgating someone or encouraging anyone else to tailgate him.  Then, when the left lane opened up, he passed the trucks at the prevailing speed of traffic, then went back to his usual cruising speed once he was back in the right lane again.

That's reasonable behavior, if I interpreted it correctly.

Yes, this is more or less what I was doing, except I was going slow enough compared to the slowest truck in the clog that the headway was gradually increasing.  I think it was about a mile after about fifteen minutes, which translates to about 4 MPH slower.

For purposes of evaluating reasonableness, I think in terms of the U-curve relationship between speed and accident rate.  Research in the 1950's by David Solomon and others established that the bottom of the curve runs from about 15 MPH below to about 15 MPH above the 85th percentile speed or the speed limit (conceptually the same if the agency has the freedom to set the speed limit at the 85th percentile).  I felt I was staying safe and not unduly obstructing traffic at 60 in a 70, especially with a clog visible in the road ahead.  I would have felt much differently at 50.

I utterly reject Jeffandnicole's suggestion that I should have been tailgating and riding my brakes like the other drivers who were stacked up behind the trucks waiting to pass.  Each of us has the prerogative to choose to drive in a resource-conserving manner.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 17, 2019, 01:37:51 PM
I utterly reject Jeffandnicole's suggestion that I should have been tailgating and riding my brakes like the other drivers who were stacked up behind the trucks waiting to pass.

I don't see where jeffandnicole suggested that.

I felt I was staying safe and not unduly obstructing traffic at 60 in a 70, especially with a clog visible in the road ahead.  I would have felt much differently at 50.

The slowest I've had to drive on the Interstate were as follows:

48 mph for 54 miles on I-64 in eastern Illinois, which was 65 mph back then and most traffic drove around 70 to 75 mph.  This was due to my delivery truck having blown its turbo hose several times in the same day and my hoping driving slowly would reduce the chance of it blowing again till I could make it to a truck stop.  I drove with my hazard lights on the whole time and rode the shoulder every so often, although I wasn't quite slow enough for my riding the shoulder to make much sense to the other drivers.

Never going above 50 mph in Wichita on two occasions:  for about a week the first time and one trip down the canal route the second time.  Kellogg and the canal route are both signed at 60 mph and most traffic drives around 60 to 70 mph.  The first time was due to my car only firing on four out of six cylinders due to a bad computer, until such time as I had it repaired.  The second time was due to a blown radiator and I wanted to keep the revs down on my way to the mechanic.  In neither case did I feel the need to drive with my hazard lights on, although I did occasionally do so to signal to entering vehicles that I wasn't going fast enough to bother waiting for.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 17, 2019, 01:57:29 PM

Given free flowing traffic on a two lane road with no passing allowed, I would certainly consider anyone driving below the limit to be impeding traffic.
It's a good thing you don't make the laws, then, because it would be impossible to obey the speed limit without impeding traffic under that sort or reasoning.

If it's just one driver that wants to go exceptionally fast, that would need to be considered case by case. But if a whole string of traffic is getting antsy and stacking up behind you in a no passing zone, then you are by definition impeding traffic, regardless of the speed limit.

If I made the laws, speed limits would be set reasonably. As most limits would be increased by between 15 and 25 mph, anyone going any existing speed limit outside of a residential area would indeed be impeding traffic.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 17, 2019, 02:06:12 PM
But if a whole string of traffic is getting antsy and stacking up behind you in a no passing zone, then you are by definition impeding traffic, regardless of the speed limit.

Please cite that legal definition so I can judge the accuracy of your statement.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 17, 2019, 02:10:58 PM
I utterly reject Jeffandnicole's suggestion that I should have been tailgating and riding my brakes like the other drivers who were stacked up behind the trucks waiting to pass.
I don't see where jeffandnicole suggested that.

Jeffandnicole was suggesting that he shouldn't have been driving so slowly/obstructing traffic, which is essentially a suggestion that he should tailgate and ride his brakes; that being the only other of two available options.



But if a whole string of traffic is getting antsy and stacking up behind you in a no passing zone, then you are by definition impeding traffic, regardless of the speed limit.
Please cite that legal definition so I can judge the accuracy of your statement.

I could care less about the legal definition. Here's what I'm going by:

im·pede /imˈpēd/
delay or prevent (someone or something) by obstructing them; hinder.

traf·fic /ˈtrafik/
1. vehicles moving on a road or public highway.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: yand on April 17, 2019, 02:14:56 PM
"Laws are great until they inconvenience me."

That's a poor "gotcha". Hypocrisy comes in degrees. Unlike most drivers, I generally make a good faith attempt to comply with *all* traffic laws and have a higher compliance rate than the vast majority of drivers. Though I am not above breaking principle in a personal emergency, I also believe that I should not be able to. I am in favor of: speed cameras, increased traffic enforcement, mass adoption of law abiding self driving cars.

In most situations, driving below the speed limit by more than a few miles per hour is impeding traffic.
No, not really.  If a car is driving 50 mph on a road signed at 60 mph, I am free to either drive 50 mph or pass him at 59 mph.  Now, if I choose to pass him and he tries to block me doing so, then he would be impeding me.

Given free flowing traffic on a two lane road with no passing allowed, I would certainly consider anyone driving below the limit to be impeding traffic.

In fact, there are a number of roads that come to mind where I would consider anyone doing less than 10 over the limit to be impeding traffic - mostly in cases of exceptionally low speed limits.

Driving the speed limit when there's no passing lane is just a courtesy. People are allowed to drive slower if they feel like they need to.

No vehicle able to travel at maximum legal speed is being impeded. If speed limits on one route are "too low" and people are complying with it then take an alternate route with higher speed limits and/or passing lanes.

This is true but my point still stands.  In CT there is no absolute requirement on a highway with three or more lanes and when moving with the  speed of traffic to keep right except to pass.

If the entire highway is somehow moving at the same speed, you are correct.  However, that doesn't happen.  If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right.

"If someone passes you on the right, then you are in violation of failing to keep to the right."
That's not an absolute rule. Suppose you, a speed limit abiding driver, move to the left lane to accommodate the merge. Before you are able to move back to the right lane, the merged cars accelerate to above the speed limit. Cars behind them closely follow, all trying to pass you on the right. If cars in the right lane are are failing to maintain a sufficient gap needed for merging back to the right lane without tailgating or being tailgated, then you are not in violation of KRETP regardless of whether you are passing or being passed.

First of all - "a speed limit abiding driver" is just one of many laws on the highway.  It's by far not the only law.  Honestly, too much focus is put on that one law.  Why not mention the "turn signal abiding driver" or the "not drinking a beer while smoking a joint while driving abiding driver".

I can get your first point, that I could move over and suddenly the guy entering the highway speeds up and passes me.  Can't do much about that.  But suddenly everyone on the highway is passing me on the right?  Sounds like I shouldn't have moved over to the left lane in the first place, as now I'm being tailgated.  If you were able to move to the left lane and suddenly can't move to the right lane, then I kinda question that ability to move to the left lane in the first place.  Remember - the speed limit is a limit, not a mandate.  If it's better for the overall traffic flow for me to slow down, I should do that.  If I put myself in a position where everyone is passing me on the right, then you're just telling the entire highway that you're not interested in driving defensively, but rather that you own the highway.

I drive 41 miles to work every morning.  And 41 miles back home every afternoon.  I pass by about 20 interchanges each way.  I see a whole lot of this shit going on every day.  And the absolute vast majority of the time the slow driver failing to keep right is at fault.  When there are clear gaps to move over, they don't.  There's people that move over from the acceleration lane to the middle lane before the acceleration lane ends...and no traffic in front of them.
I agree with you 100% and have this same problem and say the same thing you do. I always question why someone even gets into the left lane in the first place. It seems to me that a lot of people seem to think that the left lane can be used like the other lane or lanes.

I remember one incident about a year ago I was on NB I-75 about 30 miles north of Detroit and in the middle lane going with the flow of traffic and then suddenly traffic for no reason at all starts moving about 45 mph all because of one slow driver.

I for one appreciate when people take the far left lane instead of passing on the next available right lane like they're supposed to. This keeps the 2nd right lane open for when I need it.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 17, 2019, 02:36:45 PM
I don't see where jeffandnicole suggested that.

My bold:

Were you driving 60 in a 70 in the left lane or the right lane?

Either way, intentionally congesting traffic for your own benefit seems to be an obvious case of obstructing traffic.

It didn't seem to matter that other vehicles were able to pass me on the left or that it was the trucks that were impeding the traffic.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 17, 2019, 02:38:06 PM


I utterly reject Jeffandnicole's suggestion that I should have been tailgating and riding my brakes like the other drivers who were stacked up behind the trucks waiting to pass.

I don't see where jeffandnicole suggested that.

Jeffandnicole was suggesting that he shouldn't have been driving so slowly/obstructing traffic, which is essentially a suggestion that he should tailgate and ride his brakes; that being the only other of two available options.

Not at all.  Driving in the left lane without tailgating or riding his brakes could be another possibility.





But if a whole string of traffic is getting antsy and stacking up behind you in a no passing zone, then you are by definition impeding traffic, regardless of the speed limit.

Please cite that legal definition so I can judge the accuracy of your statement.

I could care less about the legal definition. Here's what I'm going by:

im·pede /imˈpēd/
delay or prevent (someone or something) by obstructing them; hinder.

traf·fic /ˈtrafik/
1. vehicles moving on a road or public highway.

Of course you could care less.  If you care at all, then you could obviously care less.

I, for one, couldn't care less about the dictionary definition of a word, because violating the law or not is determined by the legal definition of terms, not the dictionary definition.

Since you didn't feel up to the challenge of citing what the law actually says, I did it for you—for the place JNW was driving, since that seems to be the current of the discussion and the starting point of this particular sub-thread has been lost to the annals of time.

Quote from: Illinois Compiled Statutes — Vehicles (625 ILCS 5) — Sec. 11-606, Minimum speed regulation
(a)  No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation of his vehicle or in compliance with law.

(b)  Whenever the Department, The Illinois State Toll Highway Authority, or a local authority described in Section 11-604 of this Chapter determines, upon the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation concerning a highway or street under its jurisdiction that slow vehicle speeds along any part or zone of such highway or street consistently impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, the Department, the Toll Highway Authority, or local authority (as appropriate) may determine and declare by proper regulation or ordinance a minimum speed limit below which no person shall drive except when necessary for safe operation of his vehicle or in compliance with law. A limit so determined and declared becomes effective when appropriate signs giving notice of the limit are erected along such part or zone of the highway or street.

So, you see, impeding traffic is defined by statute in (a) to be relative to "the normal and reasonable movement of traffic".  Good luck convincing anybody that the normal and reasonable movement of traffic is impeded or blocked by someone driving, say, 3 mph under the speed limit.  Or, better yet, good luck facing the judge if you're the cop who issues a ticket for such.

Later, in (b), a numerical lower bound to the legal driving speed only applies if such a minimum speed limit is signed.  I assume the stretch of highway JNW was driving on had a posted minimum speed limit of 45 mph (common in Illinois), in which case he was not in violation of that either.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 17, 2019, 02:55:07 PM
I utterly reject Jeffandnicole's suggestion that I should have been tailgating and riding my brakes like the other drivers who were stacked up behind the trucks waiting to pass.
I don't see where jeffandnicole suggested that.
Jeffandnicole was suggesting that he shouldn't have been driving so slowly/obstructing traffic, which is essentially a suggestion that he should tailgate and ride his brakes; that being the only other of two available options.
Not at all.  Driving in the left lane without tailgating or riding his brakes could be another possibility.

Heh. Maybe drivers are nicer and a bit more relaxed in rural Illinois, but when trucks start bunching up like that on the Thruway, that is definitely not a potential option. I've seen people try it and fail more times than I can count. They get passed on the right like crazy and still end up doing just as much braking as everyone else.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 17, 2019, 03:03:06 PM
Not at all.  Driving in the left lane without tailgating or riding his brakes could be another possibility.

If I had done that, I would have had traffic wishing to pass the trucks stacking up behind me, and it could have been argued I was creating a secondary clog purely for my own convenience in being among the first four-wheelers to finish an overtake once the elephant race ended.  I feel this would have been far less considerate than hanging back at 60 and letting others go first.

Later, in (b), a numerical lower bound to the legal driving speed only applies if such a minimum speed limit is signed.  I assume the stretch of highway JNW was driving on had a posted minimum speed limit of 45 mph (common in Illinois), in which case he was not in violation of that either.

It did (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7290155,-88.7375636,3a,75y,178.58h,90.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa3ZtydRcD5V4NfOsGUHOKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)--though, in truth, I didn't take the 45 minimum into account; I just pegged the cruise low enough to guarantee slightly increasing headway and checked that the resulting speed was greater than speed limit minus 15 MPH.  I am not sure I have ever seen a minimum greater than 50 except on the uphill length of I-70 westbound out of Denver where lane-by-lane minimum speeds are used with the left lane being 65 with minimum 55.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 17, 2019, 03:13:01 PM
So, you see, impeding traffic is defined by statute in (a) to be relative to "the normal and reasonable movement of traffic".  Good luck convincing anybody that the normal and reasonable movement of traffic is impeded or blocked by someone driving, say, 3 mph under the speed limit.  Or, better yet, good luck facing the judge if you're the cop who issues a ticket for such.

I don't necessarily believe that drivers should be ticketed for driving below the speed limit, nor do I believe that there is or should be a legal basis for ticketing them. But there are cases where they are indeed impeding traffic by doing so. If they are inconveniencing a significant number of other drivers, they should change their behavior; speed up, or slow down and move to the shoulder to let others pass. Not because it is in accordance with the law, but because it is common courtesy.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 17, 2019, 03:23:53 PM
Heh. Maybe drivers are nicer and a bit more relaxed in rural Illinois, but when trucks start bunching up like that on the Thruway, that is definitely not a potential option. I've seen people try it and fail more times than I can count. They get passed on the right like crazy and still end up doing just as much braking as everyone else.

Where this particular thing is concerned, I think behavior is basically the same on the Thruway and on free Interstates in rural Illinois.

Ultimately, this conversation is about what counts as good citizenship on the road.  The only 100% sure way to win is to stay at home and thereby remove yourself from the competition for roadspace.  Given that recorded maximum per-lane throughputs correspond to average following distances well under the two seconds recommended for safety, it could be argued that it is antisocial behavior not to tailgate under LOS E conditions.  (Indeed, we have had people make that argument on this forum.)  Since Jeffandnicole comes from New Jersey, a state with a decades-long history of underprovision of highway infrastructure, I suspect that is what is lying behind his suggestion I am being selfish by hanging back at 60 and relaxing.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 17, 2019, 03:25:31 PM

Not at all.  Driving in the left lane without tailgating or riding his brakes could be another possibility.

If I had done that, I would have had traffic wishing to pass the trucks stacking up behind me, and it could have been argued I was creating a secondary clog purely for my own convenience in being among the first four-wheelers to finish an overtake once the elephant race ended.  I feel this would have been far less considerate than hanging back at 60 and letting others go first.

Perhaps it could have been argued.  My only point is that it wasn't argued:  jeffandnicole never said you should have tailgated or ridden your brakes.  For the record, I have no beef with what you did, and it seems prudent to me.  It isn't what I would have done—I likely would have joined the line in the left lane with probably a 1½-second headway—but I certainly can't find fault with what you did.  For what it's worth, I don't worry as much about headway when trailing large trucks, as their stopping distance is generally much greater than my own.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: TechZeke on April 17, 2019, 03:47:38 PM
Here in San Antonio, my trick is to move right one lane and pretend you're making an atempt to pass on the right. It gets the camper to pay attention and speed up 75% of the time.

It's funny, because here in Texas, a quarter of the time the far right lane is a better passing lane than the left.(On 3+ lanes obviously)

On I-35E South of Waxahachie through Italy where the rural 6 lane section is, I've gone upwards of 5-8 miles just speeding down the far right lane except moving left for entering traffic.

Seeing an opening on the far right lane has helped me get around *countless* left lane campers.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 17, 2019, 03:51:35 PM
For the record, I have no beef with what you did, and it seems prudent to me.  It isn't what I would have done—I likely would have joined the line in the left lane with probably a 1½-second headway—but I certainly can't find fault with what you did.  For what it's worth, I don't worry as much about headway when trailing large trucks, as their stopping distance is generally much greater than my own.

I confess I do have a particular dislike for waiting in line.  I also find that stone chip hazard is generally worse with 18-wheelers (tires can pick up larger stones, rear guards flap and offer inconsistent protection to following vehicles), so I tend to prefer following distances in seconds that are equal to 9% of the vehicle speed in MPH.  Also, since a tractor-trailer (depending on mirror position) has a blind zone to its rear about equal to the usual two-second following distance at highway speed, it makes sense to increase following distance for that reason as well.  AAA's Sportsmanlike Driving textbook used to recommend four seconds, and I personally regard that as a minimum.

I acknowledge that I would have found the situation less relaxing if I were not the only person who chose to drop behind and sit on cruise control.  But I don't believe it is wrong per se to be countercultural.  If I had had a sense that I was creating real inconvenience for other drivers, let alone actual hazard, I would have looked at modifying my behavior accordingly.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 17, 2019, 04:01:49 PM
Here in San Antonio, my trick is to move right one lane and pretend you're making an atempt to pass on the right. It gets the camper to pay attention and speed up 75% of the time.

I avoid I-35 through Texas these days, but my favorite lane on the four-lane and five-lane sections north of San Antonio always used to be the second from the right.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on April 17, 2019, 05:52:17 PM
My understanding has always been that one must not drive below the speed limit (unless traffic is moving at a speed below the limit), nor above the limit (unless passing on a two lane road). So if the limit was 60, you can legally only travel at 60. You may go slower for safety reasons, or when traffic is moving slower; otherwise, you could be cited for "impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic".

That's never been my understanding.  In fact, it's plainly wrong if you think about it:  what about an 18-wheeler whose rig is governed at 58 mph driving on an 80mph Interstate in Utah?  What about someone in a Suzuki Samurai who can barely maintain 65 mph with a tail wind on a good day?  Heck, I used to drive an Isuzu cab-over box truck that, with the pedal all the way to the floor on a downhill with a tail wind, could sometimes just barely break 73 mph.

Impeding traffic means actually preventing them from moving ahead normally.  It doesn't mean tractors can't drive on county highways, truckers with governors can't use the freeway, or any such thing.

I did not state that it was illegal to travel below the speed limit, full stop. I stated, directly, two situations where it's necessary: for safe operation, and when the speed of traffic is below the limit. But beyond that, the way the law is written in most states, travelling at a speed below the normal and reasonable movement of traffic would constitute a ticket. I assume, the way most left-lane laws are written, you would be much more likely to receive a ticket for "impeding flow" in the passing lane than the general-purpose lane. But I'm sure there are exceptions, at least in practice: licenced farm vehicles, damaged vehicles incapable of a reasonable speed, etc.

There is also a law (at least in WA, probably similar laws in most states) that requires drivers to pull off the road to allow faster drivers by (RCW 46.61.427) once five vehicles have accumulated behind the lead vehicle. The law states that a slow-moving vehicle is "one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place." Though I'm unsure about situations where the "normal flow" is above the limit, if it's at the limit, travelling below the limit (eg 64 in a 65) would certainly require someone to pull off and wait.

nor above the limit (unless passing on a two lane road)

The passing exception only applies in a few states. Even though you're used to it, most of the country does not have that exception.

Good point. Not sure why it's not a more common exception.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: kphoger on April 17, 2019, 06:10:04 PM
There is also a law (at least in WA, probably similar laws in most states) that requires drivers to pull off the road to allow faster drivers by (RCW 46.61.427) once five vehicles have accumulated behind the lead vehicle.

I specifically remember that law from a family vacation to Washington when I was a kid.  Washington is the only state I'm aware of that has such a law on the books.  I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I've never actually heard of any other state with one.  I was under the impression that Washington's law applied regardless of actual speed (just going by the signs, not having looked up the statute until now), but I see that's not actually the case.

The law states that a slow-moving vehicle is "one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place." Though I'm unsure about situations where the "normal flow" is above the limit, if it's at the limit, travelling below the limit (eg 64 in a 65) would certainly require someone to pull off and wait.

I don't think that's certain at all.  It would require both a police officer to determine and a judge to agree that a difference of 1 mph constitutes an aberration to the normal flow of traffic.  I rather doubt that, in fact.  Besides which, how exactly does the officer or judge determine what the "normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place" is anyway?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on April 17, 2019, 06:39:46 PM
I also find that stone chip hazard is generally worse with 18-wheelers (tires can pick up larger stones, rear guards flap and offer inconsistent protection to following vehicles), so I tend to prefer following distances in seconds that are equal to 9% of the vehicle speed in MPH.

I assume there's a reason you didn't choose the much-more-easily-calculable-at-speed 10% rating?

I found myself on I-55 near Lexington, Illinois a couple of summers ago when multiple 18-wheelers decided to stage an elephant race.  The speed limit was 70, so I just set my cruise control at 60 (low enough to ensure I wasn't catching up with the slowest truck in the clog) and took it easy for fifteen minutes or so while impatient drivers stacked up in the left lane.  Once the truckers sorted themselves out and the four-wheelers finished their own overtakes, I passed them at 80+.

You seem to be exacerbating the situation.

(https://i.imgur.com/dYVsjUe.jpg)

In Virginia we don't have numeric minimums, although the statute allows them. Instead, the general rule applies: "No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law." The word "reasonable" is an important part of this provision. Without it, I could see someone arguing that I drive at an unlawfully slow speed on the Beltway when I go 65 mph in a 55 zone where most people do 70–80. But when the speed limit is posted at 55, it's "unreasonable" as a matter of law to suggest 65 is unlawfully slow. (I make a point of staying out of the left lane whenever possible, BTW, recognizing that urban traffic is a different situation from rural Interstates.)

I swear I've heard of drivers being ticketed for driving above the limit, but also below the speed of traffic. But I cannot find the article.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: jakeroot on April 17, 2019, 06:51:59 PM
There is also a law (at least in WA, probably similar laws in most states) that requires drivers to pull off the road to allow faster drivers by (RCW 46.61.427) once five vehicles have accumulated behind the lead vehicle.

I specifically remember that law from a family vacation to Washington when I was a kid.  Washington is the only state I'm aware of that has such a law on the books.  I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I've never actually heard of any other state with one.  I was under the impression that Washington's law applied regardless of actual speed (just going by the signs, not having looked up the statute until now), but I see that's not actually the case.

California has a similar law (CVC 21656), as does Idaho (~49-639), and Oregon (ORS 811.425, strangely as it's written). I'm sure other western states have it as well.

The law states that a slow-moving vehicle is "one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place." Though I'm unsure about situations where the "normal flow" is above the limit, if it's at the limit, travelling below the limit (eg 64 in a 65) would certainly require someone to pull off and wait.

I don't think that's certain at all.  It would require both a police officer to determine and a judge to agree that a difference of 1 mph constitutes an aberration to the normal flow of traffic.  I rather doubt that, in fact.  Besides which, how exactly does the officer or judge determine what the "normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place" is anyway?

I'm not going to get into specifics of enforcement. My point is simply that the law does not explicitly defend drivers going below the speed of traffic, which is legally allowed to proceed at the limit*.

*RCW 46.61.400: " Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with subsection (1) of this section, the limits specified in this section or established as hereinafter authorized shall be maximum lawful speeds, and no person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of such maximum limits.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: J N Winkler on April 17, 2019, 06:53:28 PM
There is also a law (at least in WA, probably similar laws in most states) that requires drivers to pull off the road to allow faster drivers by (RCW 46.61.427) once five vehicles have accumulated behind the lead vehicle.

I specifically remember that law from a family vacation to Washington when I was a kid.  Washington is the only state I'm aware of that has such a law on the books.  I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I've never actually heard of any other state with one.  I was under the impression that Washington's law applied regardless of actual speed (just going by the signs, not having looked up the statute until now), but I see that's not actually the case.

Washington is not unique in attempting, on some part of its highway system, to cap the number of vehicles that may legally be in a platoon on a two-lane road with restricted passing opportunity.  Other states have used such restrictions in connection with turnouts on two-lane roads where engineering and economic factors make it inexpedient to build full passing lanes.  Idaho has used turnout signing that specifies the maximum number of vehicles that may be delayed, and I think California has as well.  Where Washington may be unique--I have not checked this in detail--is writing a global cap into state law.

Colorado has also tried turnouts, notably on US 34 in Big Thompson Canyon, but I am not aware that their use has been made compulsory.  I think there may be other states that have used them, but these four are the ones that come to mind.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: US 89 on April 17, 2019, 10:55:21 PM
There is also a law (at least in WA, probably similar laws in most states) that requires drivers to pull off the road to allow faster drivers by (RCW 46.61.427) once five vehicles have accumulated behind the lead vehicle.

I specifically remember that law from a family vacation to Washington when I was a kid.  Washington is the only state I'm aware of that has such a law on the books.  I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I've never actually heard of any other state with one.  I was under the impression that Washington's law applied regardless of actual speed (just going by the signs, not having looked up the statute until now), but I see that's not actually the case.

Washington is not unique in attempting, on some part of its highway system, to cap the number of vehicles that may legally be in a platoon on a two-lane road with restricted passing opportunity.  Other states have used such restrictions in connection with turnouts on two-lane roads where engineering and economic factors make it inexpedient to build full passing lanes.  Idaho has used turnout signing that specifies the maximum number of vehicles that may be delayed, and I think California has as well.  Where Washington may be unique--I have not checked this in detail--is writing a global cap into state law.

Colorado has also tried turnouts, notably on US 34 in Big Thompson Canyon, but I am not aware that their use has been made compulsory.  I think there may be other states that have used them, but these four are the ones that come to mind.

Montana has turnouts on US 191 near Yellowstone, and possibly other routes as well. I don't remember if there were signs stating the number of cars behind you that you had to pull over for.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Bickendan on April 18, 2019, 06:42:15 AM
I was driving toward downtown Portland on the 84/30 during the tail end of rush hour last night, so traffic was starting to slow down around the tight curves near 33rd Ave. No biggie, a bit annoying, but expected. I was in the left lane, actively passing traffic in the other two. A slow down happens near 21st Ave, and as traffic starts to debunch and clear up a bit, a car in the middle lane merges in front of me... and proceeds to drive slower than the cars in front of it. At this point on the Banfield, the lane I'm in is in planning for where I'm going: Auxiliary lane to exit at Lloyd Blvd (Lloyd Center, Convention Center, bypass bad freeway congestion to get to Rose Quarter or Steel Bridge via surface streets); right lane for Rose Quarter, Steel Bridge, or I-5 north; middle lane for Morrison Bridge, or I-5 south; or left lane to move into the far left lane of I-5 south as quickly as possible to transition to I-405 north.
With that said, 21st Ave is still a mile east of the 84's end, and slower traffic still has time to observe lane discipline (and the 84 -> 5 south ramp is two lanes); I wound up needing to pass the car that merged in front of me on the right and get back into the left lane.
A quirk about the ramps from the 84 to the 5 is that they're still in the 55 zone for the 84, and there are no advisory speeds posted, yet traffic routinely tends to go 45 through there.

Speaking of advisory speeds, Portlanders seem to take them as gospel, most annoyingly on the I-205 south -> US 26 west ramp under Division St.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 18, 2019, 07:08:02 AM
Ya know this doesn't really have anything to do with left lane camping but it's something that really annoys me when I'm driving on a certain stretch of state highway around my town.

In Saginaw Township along M-84 between Weiss and Shattuck there is a train crossing in between that has a small climb uphill as you are going SB. Well instead of busting it up to the speed limit everyone seems to slam on their brakes at the train crossing because they are going uphill. I have never understood why you'd even touch your brakes right there. Last night I was in the left lane and just went through the light at Shattuck and was approaching the train crossing, three cars in front of me for no reason at all decided to hit the brakes and I'm thinking instead of slowing down why aren't we speeding up because the speed limit is 40 and everyone was going between 25-30 with no obstructions in traffic ahead. I had my cruise set on 43 mph but that went for not when I had to hit my brakes because everyone in front of me was scared of the train crossing that has nothing wrong with it.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 18, 2019, 08:31:41 AM
I swear I've heard of drivers being ticketed for driving above the limit, but also below the speed of traffic. But I cannot find the article.

I have heard tell of this happening on the QEW, but never seen it happen myself. As a driver, it is easy to do on roads like that, because you could be going 120 kph, passing at a reasonable speed differential, and still have a line of cars stacked up behind you in seconds. In the absence of a driver hanging out on the left, traffic in the left lane will move at 140-150 kph, because it is general knowledge in Ontario that you can go the speed limit +50 kph without fear of a ticket (the OPP only bothers with ticketing drivers going over by 50 kph or more because then they can suspend your license and seize your vehicle roadside).

All that is to say, if you are pulled over for speeding, but less than 50 kph over, they probably do have a secondary reason; driving below the speed of traffic / obstructing the left lane being the most likely one.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: webny99 on April 18, 2019, 08:37:57 AM
Heh. Maybe drivers are nicer and a bit more relaxed in rural Illinois, but when trucks start bunching up like that on the Thruway, that is definitely not a potential option. I've seen people try it and fail more times than I can count. They get passed on the right like crazy and still end up doing just as much braking as everyone else.
Where this particular thing is concerned, I think behavior is basically the same on the Thruway and on free Interstates in rural Illinois.

Ultimately, this conversation is about what counts as good citizenship on the road.  The only 100% sure way to win is to stay at home and thereby remove yourself from the competition for roadspace.  Given that recorded maximum per-lane throughputs correspond to average following distances well under the two seconds recommended for safety, it could be argued that it is antisocial behavior not to tailgate under LOS E conditions.  (Indeed, we have had people make that argument on this forum.)

I, for one, certainly find it frustrating when drivers insist on leaving excess space, i.e. not tailgating, when there is a queue forming to pass one or more trucks. This gives the impression that they are intent on left lane camping, when in fact they may not be. This further invites passing on the right and opportunities for road rage to occur. When passing on the right and cutting back in occurs, drivers intent on maintaining a large space cushion will often fall back even more to resume their previous following distance, meaning everyone behind them - often miles long strings of cars, in the case of the Thruway - will have to hit the brakes.

In short, yes, I do believe that maintaining a large space cushion in the left lane on four lane highways operating at or near capacity just doesn't work well; too much valuable space is being wasted. It could be hundreds of miles before one finds a gap large enough to maintain the same space cushion in the right lane; my preference actually would be doing what you did - hanging back until all is clear - or maintaining a leaner following distance so as not to invite others to pass you on the right.



I found myself on I-55 near Lexington, Illinois a couple of summers ago when multiple 18-wheelers decided to stage an elephant race.  The speed limit was 70, so I just set my cruise control at 60 (low enough to ensure I wasn't catching up with the slowest truck in the clog) and took it easy for fifteen minutes or so while impatient drivers stacked up in the left lane.  Once the truckers sorted themselves out and the four-wheelers finished their own overtakes, I passed them at 80+.
You seem to be exacerbating the situation.
[img snipped]

I enjoyed your visual  :D

Just wanted to note that his following distance had increased to about a mile (?) after 15 minutes. During that time -- probably for at least the second half of those 15 minutes -- others shouldn't have been passing him in conjunction with the trucks. They should have been moving right and then left again, the disruption ahead on the road notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: roadfro on April 21, 2019, 01:46:24 PM
There is also a law (at least in WA, probably similar laws in most states) that requires drivers to pull off the road to allow faster drivers by (RCW 46.61.427) once five vehicles have accumulated behind the lead vehicle.

I specifically remember that law from a family vacation to Washington when I was a kid.  Washington is the only state I'm aware of that has such a law on the books.  I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I've never actually heard of any other state with one.  I was under the impression that Washington's law applied regardless of actual speed (just going by the signs, not having looked up the statute until now), but I see that's not actually the case.

Washington is not unique in attempting, on some part of its highway system, to cap the number of vehicles that may legally be in a platoon on a two-lane road with restricted passing opportunity.  Other states have used such restrictions in connection with turnouts on two-lane roads where engineering and economic factors make it inexpedient to build full passing lanes.  Idaho has used turnout signing that specifies the maximum number of vehicles that may be delayed, and I think California has as well.  Where Washington may be unique--I have not checked this in detail--is writing a global cap into state law.

Colorado has also tried turnouts, notably on US 34 in Big Thompson Canyon, but I am not aware that their use has been made compulsory.  I think there may be other states that have used them, but these four are the ones that come to mind.

Montana has turnouts on US 191 near Yellowstone, and possibly other routes as well. I don't remember if there were signs stating the number of cars behind you that you had to pull over for.

Regarding slow-moving vehicles turning out, Nevada has a similar law: NRS 484B.630.

It also appears to apply anywhere along a two-lane road, not just where signed turnouts exist, so long as the slow vehicle can safely turn out. Also, the statute defines 'slow-moving vehicle' as "a vehicle that is traveling at a rate of speed which is less than the posted speed limit for the highway or portion of the highway upon which the vehicle is traveling."
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 21, 2019, 09:15:05 PM
I saw a perfect example of left lane camping tonight on SB I-75. I was in the next lane over from the left lane (8 lanes in this stretch 4 in each direction just outside of Bay City between MM 161-160) I was approaching a Lincoln Navigator that was cruising in the left lane doing about 70 mph most likely, I was doing 80 and passed him pretty easily, so I kept looking back in my rear view mirror and he's still in the left lane and I'm getting farther and farther away from him. I really don't get these people that think the left lane is for cruising in it's like you just got passed on the right because you were going slow passing nobody with no other traffic in the left lane, what in the hell are you doing in the left lane?
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: skluth on April 23, 2019, 04:22:22 PM
I saw a perfect example of left lane camping tonight on SB I-75. I was in the next lane over from the left lane (8 lanes in this stretch 4 in each direction just outside of Bay City between MM 161-160) I was approaching a Lincoln Navigator that was cruising in the left lane doing about 70 mph most likely, I was doing 80 and passed him pretty easily, so I kept looking back in my rear view mirror and he's still in the left lane and I'm getting farther and farther away from him. I really don't get these people that think the left lane is for cruising in it's like you just got passed on the right because you were going slow passing nobody with no other traffic in the left lane, what in the hell are you doing in the left lane?

Ignorance is bliss and that person you passed on the right is one of the happiest people on the planet
Title: Re: Left Lane Camping
Post by: Flint1979 on April 23, 2019, 10:32:06 PM
I saw a perfect example of left lane camping tonight on SB I-75. I was in the next lane over from the left lane (8 lanes in this stretch 4 in each direction just outside of Bay City between MM 161-160) I was approaching a Lincoln Navigator that was cruising in the left lane doing about 70 mph most likely, I was doing 80 and passed him pretty easily, so I kept looking back in my rear view mirror and he's still in the left lane and I'm getting farther and farther away from him. I really don't get these people that think the left lane is for cruising in it's like you just got passed on the right because you were going slow passing nobody with no other traffic in the left lane, what in the hell are you doing in the left lane?

Ignorance is bliss and that person you passed on the right is one of the happiest people on the planet
Thing is though, he was in the wrong lane and I had to use the wrong lane in order to pass him.