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Author Topic: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins  (Read 13022 times)

corco

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State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« on: January 19, 2014, 10:20:01 PM »

So...I was out driving some highways in northern Idaho today as I push to finish clinching the system soon. I learned that Idaho does indeed have unpaved segments of state highway- I thought their whole system was paved, but evidently SH-64 has a few miles of gravel as it heads down the grade from Nezperce to Kamiah and then the southern segment of SH-7 south of US 12, up the grade from Orofino towards Nezperce is also dirt.

Anyway, on Highway 7 I noticed something that I don't think could happen more than a handful of other times around the country. The southern segment of SH-7 heads south from US 12 through Clearwater County as a dirt road, up a massive grade, and then turns into a county road at the Lewis County line. What's odd is that pavement begins at the Lewis County line, so the road actually improves substantially in its condition as it's passed to a lesser maintainer.

Not the best picture, but you can kind of see how pavement begins after the county line (note the odd END SH-7 sign- Idaho is normally insanely good about signing their highways, but this one seems to be the exception. I'm pretty sure it's the only such exception in the entire state- there's no clue you're on SH-7 when you're on the segment south of US 12 besides mileposts, ITD spec signage, and then this sign):


Heading the other way, there's no SH-7 reassurance marker, but that's an ITD type speed limit sign and there are mileposts and it's listed in the state route log:


What makes this slightly more (less?) interesting is that the Lewis County portion of the road was at one point also SH-7, and that highway went through Nezperce and down to Grangeville, but was decommissioned I believe in the 70s. A portion of it was recommissioned as SH-162, but only a short bit south of Nezperce.

Anyway, there's certainly dozens upon dozens upon dozens of instances of paved state highways ending at dirt county roads, but are there any other instances of dirt state highways ending at paved county roads?

bzakharin

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 11:04:19 PM »

Idaho has gravel roads with a speed limit of 50? NJ has divided highways with speed limits of 45.
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corco

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 11:06:34 PM »

Montana has dirt roads with speed limits of 70!

Don't worry though- I think more often than not Idaho underposts speed limits for out west. Where there's traffic and twistyness, Idaho has been getting skiddish lately about speed limits.

NE2

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 11:07:12 PM »

There might be a few cases where an unpaved state highway becomes a paved road at a state line. For that matter, how many unpaved state highways are there? (primary only in NC-SC-VA-WV) Even out west there can't be too many.
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corco

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 11:13:03 PM »

Montana is a smorgasbord of unpaved state highways- a huge chunk of secondaries don't have pavement, and even at least one primary (38) is totally unpaved. I think NM has a bunch of dirt ones too. Wyoming is totally paved.

Other states I know of:
WA- the end of SR 165
AZ- parts of 288, 366, i know I'm missing at least one more that isn't coming to me off the top of my head
UT- a few, namely the Moki Dugway
ID- I'm 97% sure it's only that part of SH 7 and SH 64
NE- there's two highways whose numbers I don't know off the top of my head
SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too

NE2

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 11:17:23 PM »

Montana is a smorgasbord of unpaved state highways- a huge chunk of secondaries don't have pavement
Are these actually state highways, or state-signed county highways? I know when the secondaries were first created they were all county maintained, and (AFAIK) the state took over each one as it improved it.

California, for the record, has none that are open to traffic (SR 173 is closed).
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corco

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 11:19:47 PM »

Yes- state signed county highways. Even 38, which is a primary highway, is county-maintained. I don't know that MDT directly deals with unpaved roadways, and I know that's a sore point between the Montana Association of Counties and MDT.

Leads to some weird things though- I don't have a picture handy but on the Ovando-Helmville Road like a block south of Ovando, MT, there's a random S-271 reassurance shield despite S-271 not being anywhere near there.

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2014, 11:27:08 PM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.
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corco

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2014, 11:31:42 PM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.

(headed northbound along the state line)


(as it turns east)

TCN7JM

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2014, 11:36:52 PM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.
Yeah, it's odd that we'd do that with SD 20 because we tend to not add enough signage on a lot of our other highways.
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Duke87

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2014, 11:48:48 PM »

Connecticut I know for a fact has no unpaved state highways. As far as I'm aware, Rhode Island and Massachusetts don't, either. Vermont does have a few, though.

New York I don't think does, but I could be wrong. Pennsylvania I'm going to assume must have some unpaved quadrant route somewhere just because there are so many of them of so little significance.
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NE2

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 12:09:52 AM »

Leads to some weird things though- I don't have a picture handy but on the Ovando-Helmville Road like a block south of Ovando, MT, there's a random S-271 reassurance shield despite S-271 not being anywhere near there.
That used to be part of S-272 (which continued southeast from Helmville to Avon via MT 141) until 1976, but it doesn't seem to have ever been S-271 (which instead went north from Helmville on MT 141).
http://archive.org/stream/montanafederalai1975mont#page/122/mode/1up
http://archive.org/stream/montanafederalai1976mont#page/124/mode/2up
(Yes, MT 141 was numbered because it was P-41.)

Ovando-Helmville was part of the 1930s MT 31: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/250k/txu-pclmaps-topo-us-butte-1947.jpg
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corco

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 12:14:17 AM »

Yeah- speaking of that, there is actually a text "Highway 272" trailblazer pointing towards 141 up Three Mile Road north of Avon, approximately right here

http://goo.gl/maps/CER5i

I've got all these pictures on my work computer because I inventoried the entire county's road signage this summer- I need to snag them. There's a couple embossed signs floating around too.

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2014, 12:27:12 AM »

Connecticut I know for a fact has no unpaved state highways. As far as I'm aware, Rhode Island and Massachusetts don't, either. Vermont does have a few, though.

New York I don't think does, but I could be wrong. Pennsylvania I'm going to assume must have some unpaved quadrant route somewhere just because there are so many of them of so little significance.
I've never come across anything in RI, MA, NY, or PA. PA really paves every little road.

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 12:44:22 AM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.
Yeah, it's odd that we'd do that with SD 20 because we tend to not add enough signage on a lot of our other highways.
What about SD 53? I think it's unpaved from just south of I-90 to just north of SD 44.
(and why does it even exist?)
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TCN7JM

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2014, 12:50:08 AM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.
Yeah, it's odd that we'd do that with SD 20 because we tend to not add enough signage on a lot of our other highways.
What about SD 53? I think it's unpaved from just south of I-90 to just north of SD 44.
(and why does it even exist?)
I said I could be wrong, and I guess I was. Although I agree that highway doesn't look like it serves much of a purpose.
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hbelkins

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2014, 01:08:27 AM »

There's a good chunk of KY 199 in Pike County that's gravel.
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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2014, 01:13:36 AM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.
Yeah, it's odd that we'd do that with SD 20 because we tend to not add enough signage on a lot of our other highways.
What about SD 53? I think it's unpaved from just south of I-90 to just north of SD 44.
(and why does it even exist?)
I said I could be wrong, and I guess I was. Although I agree that highway doesn't look like it serves much of a purpose.
A lot of 1804/1806 are also unpaved.
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NE2

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2014, 01:53:02 AM »

There's a good chunk of KY 199 in Pike County that's gravel.
Holy crap. The Goog doesn't even show the road, but it's on the aerial and signed where it meets KY 632.

Apparently KY 1679 (Little Shepherd Trail) was recently paved.
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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2014, 01:55:44 AM »

Pennsylvania I'm going to assume must have some unpaved quadrant route somewhere just because there are so many of them of so little significance.
I've never come across anything in RI, MA, NY, or PA. PA really paves every little road.

The state maintained mileage of gravel roads is dwindling, but there are still some unpaved SRs in PA. One that comes to mind is a section of White Deer Pike (SR 1010) near the notoriously deserted "Mile Run" exit on I-80. But as I said, the unpaved mileage is dwindling: The unpaved portion was nearly twice as long a decade ago.

You can find more on the official PennDOT statewide map (in PDF here). The vast majority of roads shown on the map are SRs, and lines in light gray indicate unpaved sections. You can then check the corresponding Type 10 county map to verify that the road is an SR and find out the number.

I'm not aware of any primary routes (1 through 999) that still have any unpaved sections, though.
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TCN7JM

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 01:56:09 AM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.
Yeah, it's odd that we'd do that with SD 20 because we tend to not add enough signage on a lot of our other highways.
What about SD 53? I think it's unpaved from just south of I-90 to just north of SD 44.
(and why does it even exist?)
I said I could be wrong, and I guess I was. Although I agree that highway doesn't look like it serves much of a purpose.
A lot of 1804/1806 are also unpaved.
Personally I think those two are nothing more than glorified river walks and serve no purpose as state highways (nobody would use them to travel from Point A to Point B; there are almost no cities along either route), but they are technically state highways and I did forget about them so, yeah. It's only a few miles of 1804, but I guess I was really wrong. :banghead:
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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 02:15:48 AM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.
Yeah, it's odd that we'd do that with SD 20 because we tend to not add enough signage on a lot of our other highways.
What about SD 53? I think it's unpaved from just south of I-90 to just north of SD 44.
(and why does it even exist?)
I said I could be wrong, and I guess I was. Although I agree that highway doesn't look like it serves much of a purpose.
A lot of 1804/1806 are also unpaved.
Personally I think those two are nothing more than glorified river walks and serve no purpose as state highways (nobody would use them to travel from Point A to Point B; there are almost no cities along either route), but they are technically state highways and I did forget about them so, yeah. It's only a few miles of 1804, but I guess I was really wrong. :banghead:
Oh I totally agree with you; I just wanted to point it out.
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DandyDan

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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 07:13:25 AM »

Montana is a smorgasbord of unpaved state highways- a huge chunk of secondaries don't have pavement, and even at least one primary (38) is totally unpaved. I think NM has a bunch of dirt ones too. Wyoming is totally paved.

Other states I know of:
WA- the end of SR 165
AZ- parts of 288, 366, i know I'm missing at least one more that isn't coming to me off the top of my head
UT- a few, namely the Moki Dugway
ID- I'm 97% sure it's only that part of SH 7 and SH 64
NE- there's two highways whose numbers I don't know off the top of my head
SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
Nebraska's unpaved state roads are N-67 between N-2 and US-34 in Otoe and Cass Counties, N-65 going south from Pawnee City to the Kansas border, the easternmost segment of N-18, which ends at US-283, and the S67C spur, which goes west from the gravel portion of N-65 and bizarrely exists as state highway.
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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 01:05:07 PM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.
Yeah, it's odd that we'd do that with SD 20 because we tend to not add enough signage on a lot of our other highways.
What about SD 53? I think it's unpaved from just south of I-90 to just north of SD 44.
(and why does it even exist?)
I said I could be wrong, and I guess I was. Although I agree that highway doesn't look like it serves much of a purpose.
A lot of 1804/1806 are also unpaved.
Personally I think those two are nothing more than glorified river walks and serve no purpose as state highways (nobody would use them to travel from Point A to Point B; there are almost no cities along either route), but they are technically state highways and I did forget about them so, yeah. It's only a few miles of 1804, but I guess I was really wrong. :banghead:
Oh I totally agree with you; I just wanted to point it out.
Hmmm, that makes sense... where exactly is that on 1804? (never driven the "river-walks" all the way)
I think their only purpose is to serve recreation areas. (If you want evidence on their poor quality, my avatar is on 1806 north of Fort Pierre)
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Re: State Maintenance Ends where Pavement Begins
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 01:27:31 PM »

SD- the first few miles of SD-20, probably more too
I'm pretty sure SD 20 from the Montana state line to Camp Crook is the only section of state highway in the state that is still unpaved, but I could be wrong.

Interesting- I don't know the system that well, so that's definitely possible.  I gotta say, I was over there recently and I was quite surprised by the signage treatment- most states tend to not sign the unpaved parts as well, but then there's South Dakota with full reassurance shield and welcome signage, just like a regular state highway.
Yeah, it's odd that we'd do that with SD 20 because we tend to not add enough signage on a lot of our other highways.
What about SD 53? I think it's unpaved from just south of I-90 to just north of SD 44.
(and why does it even exist?)
I said I could be wrong, and I guess I was. Although I agree that highway doesn't look like it serves much of a purpose.
A lot of 1804/1806 are also unpaved.
Personally I think those two are nothing more than glorified river walks and serve no purpose as state highways (nobody would use them to travel from Point A to Point B; there are almost no cities along either route), but they are technically state highways and I did forget about them so, yeah. It's only a few miles of 1804, but I guess I was really wrong. :banghead:
Oh I totally agree with you; I just wanted to point it out.
Hmmm, that makes sense... where exactly is that on 1804? (never driven the "river-walks" all the way)
I think their only purpose is to serve recreation areas. (If you want evidence on their poor quality, my avatar is on 1806 north of Fort Pierre)
Right here according to Google Maps. After an intersection with some random backroad, 1804 loses pavement, and there's a "Minimum maintenance, travel at your own risk" sign. Although there's no indication in that picture that the road north of that intersection is still signed as SD 1804, the pavement condition logs say it is (I was inclined to check because GMaps is often dead wrong).
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