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Author Topic: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'  (Read 230006 times)

kalvado

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2075 on: December 27, 2018, 06:24:47 AM »

Sage advice.  SR 203 and NE 124th St, Duvall, Washington.

Traffic roundabout near Duvall, WA by Arthur Allen, on Flickr
definitely something not unique to roundabouts:

Although this one is even better: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3097114,-73.6443655,3a,75y,149.05h,66.41t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1scMVP6fQnoyfxnLVQ1h1vLA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DcMVP6fQnoyfxnLVQ1h1vLA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D349.61212%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100
Overall, designing tight interections into truck routes is a bad idea - but sometimes there is just not enough room for something better.
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tradephoric

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2076 on: January 10, 2019, 03:29:42 PM »

County Crash Report: Wrecks Spike Near One New Roundabout
http://www.wbaa.org/post/county-crash-report-wrecks-spike-near-one-new-roundabout#stream/0

According to the article, the roundabout at Tapawingo Drive and River Road saw 73 'nearby crashes' in 2017.  The 2x2 roundabout was constructed in 2016.  From 2013 to 2015, the intersection saw just 17 accidents (or 5.66 average crashes per year).
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kphoger

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2077 on: January 10, 2019, 04:11:23 PM »

Quote
Thatís kind of a general pattern you see with roundabouts
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jakeroot

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2078 on: January 10, 2019, 07:34:52 PM »

Quote
Thatís kind of a general pattern you see with roundabouts

That crashes go down over time? I'm not sure we've seen that.
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kphoger

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2079 on: January 11, 2019, 01:47:42 PM »

Quote
Thatís kind of a general pattern you see with roundabouts

That crashes go down over time? I'm not sure we've seen that.

Well, that was only half of his point.  Let's not miss the fact that he publicly admitted new roundabouts see high crash rates in the beginning.
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jakeroot

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2080 on: January 11, 2019, 03:10:49 PM »

Quote
Thatís kind of a general pattern you see with roundabouts

That crashes go down over time? I'm not sure we've seen that.

Well, that was only half of his point.  Let's not miss the fact that he publicly admitted new roundabouts see high crash rates in the beginning.

Indeed. And I'm not sure we've seen such mentions on the FHWA websites. Something smells fishy here.
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tradephoric

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2081 on: March 25, 2019, 10:57:35 AM »

Crashes have nearly tripled at the Sharpes Corner roundabout in Anacortes, Washington.  According to the article there have been 47 vehicle collisions in the Sharpes Corner roundabout from when it opened June 23 to March 19 compared to 17 collisions during the same time period before the roundabout.  That's not as bad as it sounds though, considering it is a new roundabout and the first few months of crashes should be largely overlooked.  I'm still concerned that it's only a matter of time before a truck going eastbound rolls over and ends up on laying on its side near the southern leg of the roundabout.  The eastbound geometry leading up to that roundabout is concerning to me still.  This was taken directly from the article:

Quote
Ron Davis, owner of Anacortes Flea Market and Ronís Produce, said many motorists donít know how to drive in a roundabout or drive too fast.

ďThe speed limit in the roundabout is 15 mph, and thereís a truck right now going through there at 25 and heís leaning,Ē Davis said early Tuesday. ďCollisions are going to continue if (police) donít slow them down. I hear screeching tires all day long.Ē

This guy's Flea Market is right at the corner of the new roundabout.  He's concerned with how fast trucks are driving through the roundabout and sees them leaning as they drive through.  It seems like a matter of time before one tips over.

Crashes piling up in newest roundabouts
https://www.goskagit.com/anacortes/crashes-piling-up-in-newest-roundabouts/article_6590d32e-4a9b-11e9-9d84-37afd04670c2.html#comments
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MNHighwayMan

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2082 on: March 25, 2019, 11:03:10 AM »

That's not as bad as it sounds though, considering it is a new roundabout and the first few months of crashes should be largely overlooked.

Still gotta post about it though! Can't let anyone miss this crucial news!

I'm still concerned that it's only a matter of time before a truck going eastbound rolls over and ends up on laying on its side near the southern leg of the roundabout.

And aliens might land on the middle island and vaporize the surrounding neighborhood.
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tradephoric

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2083 on: March 25, 2019, 11:19:47 AM »

That's not as bad as it sounds though, considering it is a new roundabout and the first few months of crashes should be largely overlooked.

Still gotta post about it though! Can't let anyone miss this crucial news!

I'm still concerned that it's only a matter of time before a truck going eastbound rolls over and ends up on laying on its side near the southern leg of the roundabout.

And aliens might land on the middle island and vaporize the surrounding neighborhood.

There are well documented roundabouts that are prone to truck tip-overs. The roundabouts in Worthington, MN and the Howard Avenue Diversion roundabout outside Windsor, Ontario has had a significant number of truck tip-overs.  The Sharpes Corner roundabout is another good candidate for becoming a truck tip-over hot spot.  Look at the streetview image of EB traffic approaching the Shapres Corner roundabout.  Before the roundabout traffic is likely cruising at 55-60 mph and it just seems like the roundabout could up on you fast.  There is no overhead signage that traffic is approaching a roundabout.  I could definitely see a truck driver not paying close enough attention as they cruise down that limited access highway and all of a sudden they are face to face with a massive curve in the road (aka a roundabout).

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.4643916,-122.5838762,3a,60y,120.35h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4Y818I69qnBH6bjeVkx_QQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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kalvado

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2084 on: March 25, 2019, 11:32:26 AM »

That's not as bad as it sounds though, considering it is a new roundabout and the first few months of crashes should be largely overlooked.

Still gotta post about it though! Can't let anyone miss this crucial news!

I'm still concerned that it's only a matter of time before a truck going eastbound rolls over and ends up on laying on its side near the southern leg of the roundabout.

And aliens might land on the middle island and vaporize the surrounding neighborhood.

There is another way of looking at it. Basically we're talking about a roundabout eating up 27 months worth of crashes quota in first 9 months. If there is 0 accidents from March 20th and on for the next two years, construction costs are not bringing any safety improvement for at least another 1.5 years.
If accident rate settles down to 50% of pre-construction value (still quite optimistic prediction given the rough start), it will be 4 years from the day construction was completed until total  number of crashes breaks even. I am not sure what is the lifetime of this installation, 10 years? 25 years?
So safety improvement will be 20 to 50% lower that what is going to be reported few years down the line just due to initial overhead. Numbers would be even worse if those funds could be spent on some safety-critical work elsewhere.
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jakeroot

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2085 on: March 25, 2019, 11:40:25 AM »

WSDOT doesn't usually over-post anything; as it relates to this roundabout, though there are signs approaching the junction warning of the circle, it's only a few.

Have you seen a correlation between signage and crashes?

Driving through that Anacortes roundabout myself more than a few times, the issue spot seems to be the eastbound entry. The occasional car would go into the wrong lane.
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tradephoric

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2086 on: May 07, 2019, 08:25:11 PM »


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BrianP

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2087 on: May 08, 2019, 09:59:43 AM »

I agree completely.  The drivers are the problem. If they can't drive correctly then take away their licenses. 
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kalvado

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2088 on: May 08, 2019, 10:11:13 AM »

I agree completely.  The drivers are the problem. If they can't drive correctly then take away their licenses.
Put your money where your mouth is - surrender your license today!
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BrianP

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2089 on: May 08, 2019, 10:51:12 AM »

Your statement makes no sense.  Who anything about surrendering? Surrender is voluntary.  This would compulsory for things like reckless driving. 
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tradephoric

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2090 on: May 08, 2019, 01:20:26 PM »

Your statement makes no sense.  Who anything about surrendering? Surrender is voluntary.  This would compulsory for things like reckless driving. 

If you are so concerned that drivers are the problem at these roundabouts, then maybe they should take your license away Brian.  Before you resist, studies have found that drivers believe they are better drivers than they are.  When asked to rate their driving skills, 93% of Americans say they are above average drivers.  In other news 72% of all statistics are made up, so maybe your license is safe.  But to suggest kalvado's statement made no sense.. you must not be thinking that hard.  Now i really am part of the 7% of GREAT drivers.  If they take away the licenses of all the bad drivers like you, the roads would free up space for me!   See what i did there?  I turned myself into a pretentious A-Hole driver just like you! 
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kphoger

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2091 on: May 08, 2019, 02:15:07 PM »

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tradephoric

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2092 on: May 16, 2019, 03:07:09 PM »

Michiganís Most Dangerous Intersections: Top 20 in 2018
https://www.michiganautolaw.com/blog/2019/05/15/michigans-most-dangerous-intersections-top-20-2018/

The annual list of most dangerous intersections in Michigan just came out.  The Orchard Lake @ 14 Mile roundabout (constructed in 2015) ranked #2 on the list with 144 total crashes and 20 injury crashes.  According to SEMCOG, the intersection had just 20 total crashes and 2 injury crashes in 2014 (the last year before the roundabout was constructed).  After 4 years of operation, the roundabout is seeing a 10-fold increase in injury crashes and a 7-fold increase in PDO crashes when compared to the pre-roundabout condition.

Other roundabouts that made the list of most dangerous intersections in Michigan in 2018 include the 18 1/2 Mile Road @ Van Dyke roundabout (ranked #3 w/141 crashes, 12 injuries), the M-5 @ Pontiac Trail roundabout (ranked #4 w/138 crashes, 9 injuries), and the State Street @ Ellsworth roundabout (ranked #8 w/123 crashes, 6 injuries).
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jakeroot

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2093 on: May 16, 2019, 03:12:12 PM »

What the hell is up with 12-Mile / Telegraph? Lots of crashes for an intersection without any left turns, and regular-ol' traffic lights. Not saying left turns are bad, but there are fewer conflict points without them.
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tradephoric

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Re: Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'
« Reply #2094 on: May 16, 2019, 04:05:02 PM »

What the hell is up with 12-Mile / Telegraph? Lots of crashes for an intersection without any left turns, and regular-ol' traffic lights. Not saying left turns are bad, but there are fewer conflict points without them.

Probably the biggest problem is the intersection is about 2000 feet north of the US-24 / M-10 / I-696 "mixing bowl".  Driving going SB Telegraph taking 696 or the Lodge are all fighting to get over to the right lane to take the ramps while drivers continuing on Telegraph are trying to merge over to the left lane (as the right lanes always get backed up during rush hour).  Then on the SE corner you have a large shopping center with a busy exit that conflicts with Michigan Left turnaround traffic.  Then on the SW corner there are more office and commercial buildings with numerous drives that conflict with all the traffic trying to enter onto the freeways.  On top of that 3 of the 4 corners at the intersection are gas stations.  For at least 20 years that intersection has been notorious in the region for having lots of crashes and it's just a cluster driving through it. 

Also, when compiling the crash data at these Michigan left intersections they are looking at crashes occurring 250 feet from the main signal and 250 feet from the crossover signals.  What would otherwise be categorized as a mid-block crash may be categorized as an intersection crash at these Median U-turn intersections. 
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