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Author Topic: How do you define Upstate NY?  (Read 27087 times)

empirestate

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #250 on: April 24, 2018, 09:33:15 PM »

Curious…there again is that idea that Upstate NY is only one of a number of non-NYC-centric regions. But I must say, having been raised and reared there since the late 70s, I never once heard it referred to that way by anyone actually from there. Is this a recent thing? Is it a regional thing; do people from one of the Upstate regions actually believe they're the only Upstate region? Or is this, maybe, people from non-Upstate regions trying to demonstrate their hipness by seeming to acknowledge the variegated nature of their state, but just not quite grasping it?
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webny99

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #251 on: April 24, 2018, 09:59:11 PM »

I, for one, have never thought of Western NY (or any other region outside the NYC metro) as separate from Upstate. Upstate is the all-encompassing "umbrella" term - by definition very nondescript and lacking specificity (and if this thread itself isn't evidence, I don't know what is  :-D). Everything else is, by nature, a subset of either upstate or downstate. At least that's how I see it.

But perhaps folks in the North Country think they have exclusive rights to the term? Why this mindset would exist is beyond me, although I suppose it is the UPpermost portion of the state...

Overall, if you're going to use broad, open-ended terms like "up" and "down", you MUST do so with the premise that every location statewide fits into one or the other...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 10:02:48 PM by webny99 »
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cl94

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #252 on: April 25, 2018, 01:45:16 PM »

Eh, most of the "multiple regions" stuff is perpetuated by people in Buffalo and Rochester who get quite annoyed whenever you say that is Upstate. Of course, they're also the same people who think Albany is "downstate", so...
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vdeane

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #253 on: April 25, 2018, 02:09:58 PM »

I think it's mainly Buffalo.  I grew up in Rochester and never heard of the "multiple regions" stuff until college.  Plus Rochester doesn't really fit into any region.  It's not Western NY.  It's not Central NY.  It sometimes calls itself Finger Lakes, though the lakes are to the southeast and don't even enter Monroe County.  It's Upstate and only Upstate.

The Albany = downstate idea strikes me as a North Country thing.
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webny99

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #254 on: April 25, 2018, 03:22:07 PM »

I think it's mainly Buffalo.  I grew up in Rochester and never heard of the "multiple regions" stuff until college.  Plus Rochester doesn't really fit into any region.  It's not Western NY.  It's not Central NY.  It sometimes calls itself Finger Lakes, though the lakes are to the southeast and don't even enter Monroe County.  It's Upstate and only Upstate.

Yeah, same here (well, I'm not in college, but this forum was the first place I heard that nonsense  :))
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empirestate

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #255 on: April 26, 2018, 10:25:37 AM »

Eh, most of the "multiple regions" stuff is perpetuated by people in Buffalo and Rochester who get quite annoyed whenever you say that is Upstate. Of course, they're also the same people who think Albany is "downstate", so...

But that's the whole thing: Rochester is where I grew up, from toddler-hood. I never once heard anybody claim it was some region distinct from "Upstate".

I think it's mainly Buffalo.  I grew up in Rochester and never heard of the "multiple regions" stuff until college.  Plus Rochester doesn't really fit into any region.  It's not Western NY.  It's not Central NY.  It sometimes calls itself Finger Lakes, though the lakes are to the southeast and don't even enter Monroe County.  It's Upstate and only Upstate.

It could be Buffalo, I suppose, as they are a little more attached to the "Western NY" moniker. But I'll wager there's still a degree of misinterpretation here, with some analysts thinking that because Buffalovians tend to identify more closely with the western region, they're somehow disavowing the "upstate" side of things.

Quote
The Albany = downstate idea strikes me as a North Country thing.

Well it is downstate in the relative (small "d" sense of the word). One other reason for thinking of Albany as "Downstate" (large "d") could be because it's the capital, and thus the ostensible center of influence politically. And since the term "Upstate" refers to being outside the center of influence, Albany must not be Upstate. (More likely, though, it's just that people don't know where Albany actually is.) :-)

It's also worth noting that in the tweet being referenced, Albany is actually being considered "Upstate" (and the only part of Upstate, at that).
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02 Park Ave

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #256 on: April 26, 2018, 07:02:23 PM »

Do they drink "soda" or "pop" in Rochester?
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vdeane

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #257 on: April 26, 2018, 07:56:31 PM »

I've always thought of the Genesee River as the dividing line between pop and soda.
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cl94

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #258 on: April 26, 2018, 09:34:03 PM »

Depending on who you talk to, the soda/pop divide is anywhere from Auburn to Batavia. Syracuse is ALWAYS soda, Buffalo is ALWAYS pop.
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empirestate

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #259 on: April 26, 2018, 09:43:35 PM »

Do they drink "soda" or "pop" in Rochester?

Pop, if they're locals.

I've always thought of the Genesee River as the dividing line between pop and soda.

I-81, in my observation. (That's very general though; in reality it's a bit more to the west.)

Depending on who you talk to, the soda/pop divide is anywhere from Auburn to Batavia. Syracuse is ALWAYS soda, Buffalo is ALWAYS pop.

Wherever it is, it seems to be at about the same longitude as the Pennsylvania "lager line".
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D-Dey65

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #260 on: September 20, 2018, 11:14:18 PM »

This could dredge up an old argument, so while I'm well aware there are plenty of people who disagree with me, there are also others who think everything north of the Bronx is upstate.

http://www.screanews.us/LongIsland/LongIslanderIf.htm


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MantyMadTown

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #261 on: September 21, 2018, 01:30:30 PM »

The pop/soda divide seems really interesting to me. Generally it feels like the line between pop and soda should be the dividing line between the Northeast and the Midwest, but I'm from eastern Wisconsin, and we're special in the fact that we say soda despite being clearly in the Midwest.
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MantyMadTown

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #262 on: September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM »

As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
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empirestate

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #263 on: September 23, 2018, 10:34:24 AM »

This could dredge up an old argument, so while I'm well aware there are plenty of people who disagree with me, there are also others who think everything north of the Bronx is upstate.

Well, that's essentially the premise that this whole thread is based on. But it is, as you say, more of a joke than a serious hypothesis. (Not that many people recognize the distinction, especially from Long Island…) :-D

As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
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MantyMadTown

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #264 on: September 23, 2018, 04:11:24 PM »

As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
[/quote]

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
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empirestate

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #265 on: September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM »

Quote
Quote
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.

And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?
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webny99

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #266 on: September 24, 2018, 09:10:58 AM »

I once attempted to calculate the exact (2010) population of Upstate NY using the 42nd parallel as the dividing line. It got incredibly complicated at the town level, so I decided to abandon it.

There are actually only four counties which span the 42nd parallel: Delaware, Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess. For simplicity, the entirety of Delaware County can count as Upstate, and the entirety of the other three counties can count as Downstate.
It is also questionable as to whether a minuscule corner of Columbia County lies beneath the 42nd parallel - but it is definitely an Upstate County by most standards.

I have also considered the bold proposition of a dividing line that runs between Hancock and Ticonderoga, sort of like this. It may defy geographical expectations, but I personally think it matches the cultural divide fairly well (with apologies to those from the Albany area).
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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #267 on: September 24, 2018, 10:51:00 AM »

A thought I had regarding empirestate's idea of objectively defining Upstate vs. Downstate:  at what point do you have a majority-commuting pattern into the NYC region?
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empirestate

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #268 on: September 24, 2018, 11:22:39 AM »

A thought I had regarding empirestate's idea of objectively defining Upstate vs. Downstate:  at what point do you have a majority-commuting pattern into the NYC region?

Well, I'm not sure there's a majority in my town that commutes to the city proper. But then again, if my town's in the NYC "region", then even those who work from home would count. :-)
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jon daly

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #269 on: September 24, 2018, 02:26:48 PM »

This could dredge up an old argument, so while I'm well aware there are plenty of people who disagree with me, there are also others who think everything north of the Bronx is upstate.

http://www.screanews.us/LongIsland/LongIslanderIf.htm




Whoever wrote that page is into transportation and middle-aged. I got a kick out of it.
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kalvado

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #270 on: September 24, 2018, 03:49:08 PM »

As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
[/quote]

Actually, this is another interesting aspect of it: how upstate is understood by people not closely tied to NYS....
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MantyMadTown

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #271 on: September 24, 2018, 04:08:31 PM »

Quote
Quote
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.

And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?

Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.
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jon daly

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #272 on: September 24, 2018, 05:20:01 PM »

As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.



And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.

Actually, this is another interesting aspect of it: how upstate is understood by people not closely tied to NYS....
[/quote]

My guess is this. When I was younger, I imagine the border was south of there, but its crept up.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 09:34:57 AM by jon daly »
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webny99

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #273 on: September 25, 2018, 09:15:35 AM »

I once attempted to calculate the exact (2010) population of Upstate NY using the 42nd parallel as the dividing line. It got incredibly complicated at the town level, so I decided to abandon it.

There are actually only four counties which span the 42nd parallel: Delaware, Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess. For simplicity, the entirety of Delaware County can count as Upstate, and the entirety of the other three counties can count as Downstate.

Including only entire counties, and using 2017 population figures, the population of Upstate NY is about 6,025,120.
That means it would rank 20th nationwide; putting it within 25,000 of Maryland, similar to Missouri, slightly less than Indiana and Tennessee, and slightly more than Minnesota and Wisconsin.

The funny thing is that even without Upstate - Downstate would still have a population of over 13 million, meaning it would still rank as the 4th most populous state nationwide - unchanged from the current ranking of NYS in its entirety!! This is due, of course, to a gap of around 9 million between Florida (3rd at 21.3m) and Pennsylvania (5th at 12.8m), providing a lot of leeway. So NY will rank 4th for the foreseeable future, considering it can lose all of Upstate and still do so!
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empirestate

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Re: How do you define Upstate NY?
« Reply #274 on: September 25, 2018, 07:55:42 PM »

Quote
Quote
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.

And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?

Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.

Sounds like you'd adopt more or less the same definition that I would. Is there anything you'd tweak (such as, say, measuring the actual number of commuters rather than just their potential for doing so)?
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