AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?  (Read 7424 times)

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2658
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:52:12 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2016, 12:39:05 AM »

I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.
Give that over time funding availability is like a virtual roller coaster, here's what I think has a good chance of happening:  I-11 gets built north of I-10, intersecting at or near the Sun Valley Parkway, which is just under 2 miles west of the I-10/AZ 85 interchange.  In order to avoid weaving on I-10, direct ramps are built between the two interchanges adjacent to the main lanes of I-10 (more or less an elongated C/D system).  And, unless a massive dose of $$ occurs at once, AZ 85 (including an extension to and interchange with I-8) will be re-designated as I-11 -- as an interim route.  If & when funding is available for a full bypass to Casa Grande or (why, lord, why!) farther, that extension will branch off the extended I-11/former AZ 85 somewhere TBD south of Buckeye; the remainder to Gila Bend will become a x11 3di (the most direct Phoenix-San Diego route).  Barring a 3rd full round of chargeable (>90%) Interstates (after '56 and '68) down the road, an incremental plan like this would be the most likely to result in some sort of completed route.  Sorry if I sidestepped close to the fictional line here, but it's relevant to the OP. 
 
Logged

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 788
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: May 12, 2017, 12:42:29 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2016, 01:22:19 AM »

which is just under 2 miles west of the I-10/AZ 85 interchange.  In order to avoid weaving on I-10, direct ramps are built between the two interchanges adjacent to the main lanes of I-10 (more or less an elongated C/D system)

If Arizona was going to do stuff like this, then they would have done it with the two or three places in Phoenix that actually need it. I understand that ROW acquisition is a lot cheaper around this area than in urbanized Phoenix, but ADOT has more or less set the precedent that it's fine with dumping traffic and forcing people to weave.

A couple of things go against Sun Valley Parkway as I-11 in my mind: one, that the parkway is in most ways not up to interstate standards (shoulder widths, lane widths, crossovers, etc.), so construction would not necessarily be made easier or cheaper beyond a lot of the grading and land acquisition already done (although I believe the Hassayampa Freeway corridor is mostly on federal and state trust land), and there being less of an impact on the environment (though that's never really stopped Maricopa County before); two, the municipal squabbling of the West Valley exurb tri-cities.
Go to Google Maps, and click on Buckeye. Notice where almost the entire routing of Sun Valley Parkway lies. Thanks to the unchecked municipal land grabs that occurred during the housing boom in Arizona, Buckeye looks like a modern congressional district, ducking in and out of the undeveloped crevices of Maricopa County, annexing one saguaro but not the one next to it. Giving Buckeye the giftwrapped I-11 is just going to piss off the rest of the West Valley, because they all have enormous swaths of undeveloped land and Buckeye is the only one that will get the benefits of this. Meanwhile, the traffic that currently uses 303 or 101 will be diverted. And even fewer people will stop at that ridiculous Westgate Entertainment District than do so now.

I think, in the end, it'll just be plopped onto 303. You have to remember also the context (as it were) of this interstate: it's not necessarily a bypass of Phoenix but, rather, an interstate-grade route between Phoenix and Las Vegas. So a lot of the traffic will want to reach Phoenix, and much of that traffic will not want to drop south well west of Phoenix only to have to slog in on I-10. I mean, personally, if I had the choice of going through the traffic lights on 93 versus going south at around Wickenburg and then east on I-10, then I would choose the former. The mileage is shorter and, at most times of the day, it's going to be quicker.
Logged

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5378
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 02:18:20 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2016, 07:43:58 AM »

Things are going to be made even easier with the upgrades on Grand at Bell Road and even as population increases near AZ 74.  Usually my preferred route depending on where I was in the Valley was I-17 to AZ 74 west from the east Valley or even taking Bell Road directly to Grand/US 60 up to Wickenburg or just Grand if I was in the West Valley.  Neither route was exactly very slow but both were very direct for Wickenburg.  Basically you hit on the crux of the problem with Buckeye annexing all that land to scoop up I-11 from everyone potentially.  I'm fairly certain they might try to dump all that land if their plans for I-11 doesn't go through, they haven't even established a full foothold of the MC 85 corridor.

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 788
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: May 12, 2017, 12:42:29 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2016, 09:49:51 AM »

I'm fairly certain they might try to dump all that land if their plans for I-11 doesn't go through

Why would they "dump" the land? It doesn't really cost them anything. And they mostly annexed those particular parcels to get CAP water rights.
I think Sun Valley Parkway is maintained by the county. They built it, at least. I also don't know that there's even a precedent in Arizona for deannexation, but the legal requirements set down by the state seem to be more trouble than it would be worth.
Logged

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2658
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:52:12 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2016, 11:30:44 AM »

A couple of things go against Sun Valley Parkway as I-11 in my mind: one, that the parkway is in most ways not up to interstate standards (shoulder widths, lane widths, crossovers, etc.), so construction would not necessarily be made easier or cheaper beyond a lot of the grading and land acquisition already done.
Actually, I wasn't thinking of using the existing Sun Valley Parkway as an I-11 alignment; more or less figured that the Hassayampa Valley alignment would parallel the N-S section of that existing road.  The Parkway would likely be reserved as a local arterial (a "spine", if you will) for any future development in the area.  I have no doubt that any I-11 alignment, if retained in this area and not relocated so as to intersect Loop 303 as coatimundi predicts, would also "bob and weave" its trajectory so as to benefit the various jurisdictions through which it would travel; that would be expected in any case.

Personally, I agree with coatimundi about using Loop 303 as a partial routing; it certainly satisfies the original Phoenix-Vegas concept more closely than does the Hassayampa variant.  But I'm guessing that the folks wishing to further develop the areas around Maricopa and Casa Grande likely wield a lot of political power in AZ, and at least that portion of a "west/south" Phoenix bypass will remain a "paper" concept for the foreseeable future -- hence the existence of the Hassayampa I-11 segment as a facility intended to feed into that concept.  I still think I-11 north of I-10, regardless of final routing, will see completion -- or at least significant construction -- before anything south of there is started.
Logged

Sonic99

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 181
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Prescott, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 12:27:31 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2016, 11:58:49 AM »

I think it comes down to what the ultimate goal for I-11 is (and I realize it changes depending on who you talk to and when). Is it a Phoenix/Vegas connection? Or is it a Canada/Mexico trade route? If it's the latter, then I think routing I-11 will happen west of the White Tanks and run down AZ 85 (from there, who knows). If it's the former, then it should run further into the Phoenix area and go down the 303 route.

The only real issue I see is that they JUST finished the 303/Grand Ave interchange, and making I-11 go down Grand to the 303 would require a complete demolition and rebuilding of that interchange to accommodate a freeway-to-freeway connection.
Logged
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2658
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:52:12 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2016, 03:03:17 PM »

The only real issue I see is that they JUST finished the 303/Grand Ave interchange, and making I-11 go down Grand to the 303 would require a complete demolition and rebuilding of that interchange to accommodate a freeway-to-freeway connection.
It looks as if there's enough open area east of the Loop 303 bridge over Grand to install a directional (or trumpet, if they want to cheap out!) interchange.  It's likely that any I-11 (or other) freeway facility based on the Grand trajectory would be a parallel facility rather than sit atop the original US 60 alignment -- normal urban/suburban practice for AZDOT;  subsuming alignments are usually situated in more rural regions.
Logged

kdk

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 60
  • Location: Scottsdale AZ
  • Last Login: November 15, 2017, 11:56:43 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2016, 03:54:25 AM »

I-11 will go west of the Hassayampas, as much as I'll still use the 303 to the 60 if I'm driving from Phoenix to Nevada.
The major master developers who own land in the area have agreed to donate land to the freeway corridor so it will happen-
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2014/03/proposed-interstate-11-has-support-of-land-owners.html

It will make their land more valuable long term anyway.  Even before the I-11 plans were being discussed a future freeway was always in the long term plan, initially would likely have been the Loop 404.   The 303 will fill in with local traffic as that area fills in more, and will be more like the 101 is today.  But I still see the 85 as a temporary leg of the 11 for a while.
Logged

The Ghostbuster

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1704
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Madison, WI
  • Last Login: November 17, 2017, 04:35:14 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2016, 04:55:21 PM »

I expect it to be a long time before Interstate 11 is signposted anywhere (excluding the future I-11 signs, of course).
Logged

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2658
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:52:12 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2016, 04:17:11 PM »

I expect it to be a long time before Interstate 11 is signposted anywhere (excluding the future I-11 signs, of course).
It's likely that the Boulder City bypass will receive I-11 signage when completed; whether I-515 into central Vegas is redesignated & re-signed is another issue altogether.  NV interests seem to want to plant the first signage somewhere within their parvenu.  In AZ, unless construction activity in the Kingman area occurs sooner than later, I would concur that nothing more than "future I-11" corridor signage will be posted in the near-term.
Logged

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 788
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: May 12, 2017, 12:42:29 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2016, 02:55:29 PM »

I was Googling something unrelated and stumbled upon this. I had seen something like it years ago in the Tucson daily, but wasn't able to find it later.
https://webcms.pima.gov/UserFiles/Servers/Server_6/File/Government/Newsroom/Work%20Newsroom/1308%20August/130813%20Pima%20County%20supports%20study%20of%20interstate%20highway%20link.pdf

I Googled the title of the PDF and found the original article: http://webcms.pima.gov/cms/One.aspx?pageId=40775

One thing that surprised me was to see Chuck Huckleberry (who has been around for many years, and who I call Chuckleberry) talking about this. Pima County's Board of Supervisors has never been very friendly toward these sorts of projects, so I wonder if it's just a seeming inevitability, or that they realize that they need to just get something onto paper and that nothing will likely ever come of it.
Logged

swbrotha100

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 405
  • Last Login: October 02, 2016, 10:07:09 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2016, 10:21:01 PM »

I was Googling something unrelated and stumbled upon this. I had seen something like it years ago in the Tucson daily, but wasn't able to find it later.
https://webcms.pima.gov/UserFiles/Servers/Server_6/File/Government/Newsroom/Work%20Newsroom/1308%20August/130813%20Pima%20County%20supports%20study%20of%20interstate%20highway%20link.pdf

I Googled the title of the PDF and found the original article: http://webcms.pima.gov/cms/One.aspx?pageId=40775

One thing that surprised me was to see Chuck Huckleberry (who has been around for many years, and who I call Chuckleberry) talking about this. Pima County's Board of Supervisors has never been very friendly toward these sorts of projects, so I wonder if it's just a seeming inevitability, or that they realize that they need to just get something onto paper and that nothing will likely ever come of it.

I can't believe Pima County actually was planning an interstate label for the Sonoran Corridor. The maps label it as I-510, but more recent mentions of the corridor label it as future SR 410.
Logged

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 788
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: May 12, 2017, 12:42:29 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2016, 10:31:01 PM »

I can't believe Pima County actually was planning an interstate label for the Sonoran Corridor. The maps label it as I-510, but more recent mentions of the corridor label it as future SR 410.

I think an even number would be more appropriate, seeing that it's more like a loop. I would guess someone with a basic but limited knowledge of the interstate numbering system put that in there.

I saw some other articles when I started looking more that talked about how residents in the Avra Valley - where I-11 would plow through at a somewhat devastating angle - were concerned that this was setting the stage for the I-11 that hasn't been really properly planned or approved yet, since the maps showed the two connecting. I think they're just waiting to pounce, and I hope that they choose to remain more quiet on this one in order to pick their battles.
Logged

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5378
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 02:18:20 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2016, 12:20:32 AM »

I can't believe Pima County actually was planning an interstate label for the Sonoran Corridor. The maps label it as I-510, but more recent mentions of the corridor label it as future SR 410.

I think an even number would be more appropriate, seeing that it's more like a loop. I would guess someone with a basic but limited knowledge of the interstate numbering system put that in there.

I saw some other articles when I started looking more that talked about how residents in the Avra Valley - where I-11 would plow through at a somewhat devastating angle - were concerned that this was setting the stage for the I-11 that hasn't been really properly planned or approved yet, since the maps showed the two connecting. I think they're just waiting to pounce, and I hope that they choose to remain more quiet on this one in order to pick their battles.

So why the 3d Interstate now?...of all things in Tucson?  There was plenty of opportunity for numbers like that on the Loop 101, 202, and 303....so what's wrong with 909, 808, 707, ect? 

Incidentally....what the hell is up with I-11 and I-19 multiplexing on that map?  :eyebrow:

Sonic99

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 181
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Prescott, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 12:27:31 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2016, 01:45:43 AM »

I still remain convinced that the need for a completely new Interstate alignment so close to I-10 from Casa Grande all the way south is completely ridiculous. The bypass around the back side of Tucson, perhaps. But at the top, it looks like I-11 parallels I-10 with only a couple miles difference.

My idea would be I-11 down AZ 85 to Gila Bend, and a duplex along I-8 and I-10 to the Tucson area, then the bypass around the back side of Tucson down to I-19 and either duplex or replace I-19 to the Mexican border.

Kind of on-topic but off-topic, does anyone know what Arizona's hatred for duplexes is? Do any even exist? The only one I can think of is AZ 77 and US 60 from Globe to Show Low. For the sake of this argument, I am not counting short duplexes that only go for a couple miles through towns. I can't really think of any others, as it seems like they would rather have a highway "end" when it meets another rather than duplexing to a destination. It seems like other states have plenty of overlap of highways (and definitely Interstates) where they cross paths or run in a similar area.
Logged
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5378
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 02:18:20 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2016, 01:54:14 AM »

I don't think it's a hatred rather than there just really hasn't been much of a need.  Don't forget US 80/89 and US 60/70 used to have GIANT multiplexes not to mention all FOUR were multiplexed at the height of the US Route era even though US 80 probably could have been realigned via AZ 86 and AZ 84... 

US 70 and US 191 still have a decently sized multiplex east of Safford.  I'd say that Arizona's Highway log is more infamous for being "stingy" in terms of maintained routes compared to other states like say....cough...New Mexico...or even Nevada or California.  What I like to understand is why was almost every early route number in Arizona 61 or higher?  It wasn't like US 60 as even around at the time some of the AZ Routes started getting plotted out. 

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 788
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: May 12, 2017, 12:42:29 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2016, 03:37:25 AM »

Regarding 3dis, Kino Parkway in Tucson was supposed to be I-710. I don't know why 360 and then 60 in the East Valley wasn't 310 though. Seems like a no-brainer.

Regarding multiplexes, there are a few. 87/260 and 87/287 are two more. A lot of them were removed when all the US routes were yanked. There was just no reason to keep them. Why keep US 70 all the way to California if California has deleted it?

I don't know what the logic is on the parallel routing of I-11. 10 being at 6 lanes in the rural areas seems to be perfectly adequate now, and it certainly seems like it would be easier to widen it again later rather than build a whole new corridor. I wonder if the logic is that it's going to be a new "international corridor," as if truck traffic is avoiding Nogales now because there's no direct interstate. It reminds me a bit of the 90's, when the states that could have benefited got so excited about their "NAFTA Highways."
I mean, despite being "undeveloped" and perceived as desolate, Arizona is not Texas or Oklahoma, and people fight roads. I don't understand why this is even worth putting on the table unless it's to make an alternative seem better.
Logged

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5378
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 02:18:20 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2016, 09:44:31 AM »

Yeah but that's the thing if it wasn't for California kicking them out then Arizona might not have to yanked that 60/70 multiplex.  I'm actually surprised US 80 hung on as long as it did to 1989 in Arizona.  US 89 made sense to cut back...to Wickenburg at least...but not Flagstaff.  Aside from that there isn't much need for multiplexes in the state route system....speaking which I always thought 260 should have been left with an X79 number.  260 would have made a lot more sense if it went to Mesa and hook back up with US 60...

To add to Phoenix even AZ 51 was conceived as I-510 and rumor has it that's where the first two digits came from. 

pumpkineater2

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 274
  • Jamie O' Neal lied. It does exist.

  • Age: 19
  • Location: Flagstaff, Arizona
  • Last Login: November 17, 2017, 08:11:15 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2016, 09:19:29 PM »

I am in agreement with others here that the plans for a parallel highway, and that pointless multiplex are egregious. I also find it extremely irritating how much planners are getting carried away with the southern part of I-11.  :banghead: I'd totally support a connection between 10 and 19, as well as a western bypass of Tucson, but only if it connects with I-10 somewhere near Marana, instead of redundantly running parallel to it. Also, I don't like the thought of it west of the White Tanks one bit. :no:
Logged
Come ride with me to the distant shore...

Sonic99

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 181
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Prescott, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 12:27:31 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2016, 11:04:40 PM »

I think a multiplex for a basic overlap for a short distance (compared to the broader route) is fine though, but some of the cutoffs just seem weird (I think US 180 ending in Valle instead of simply overlapping AZ 64 for the last 20 miles to the Grand Canyon is odd, because from Flagstaff that's the primary route to the Grand Canyon, but the route itself ends before you get to the Grand Canyon). And the implied refusal of ADOT to consider letting I-11 overlap anything and it must be on its own route (or replace a route, as it will seemingly result in US 93 being deleted once I-11 becomes a thing).

There's no reason an overlap of I-8 and I-10 from Gila Bend to Tucson would hurt anything, and overwriting AZ 85 from I-10 to I-8 seems like a no-brainer. But all these studies seem to imply that ADOT wants all-new routing for everything south of Wickenburg all the way to the Mexican border (or at the most, the overlap of I-19, although I wouldn't be surprised if they just deleted I-19 if they ran I-11 down there, with the last stretch if I-19 going into Tucson becoming an I-x10 branch), which seems absurdly redundant when the facilities are already there and can be done with some upgrading, instead of the much more complex process of going along an entire new stretch of land. We've seen the crazy issues the 202 has had with getting approval and going through the lawsuit-after-lawsuit process, and that's on a route that was put on paper 31 years ago.
Logged
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5378
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 02:18:20 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2016, 11:19:50 PM »

Actually US 180 does end at the Grand Canyon National Park Entrance:

http://www.usends.com/80-89/180/180.html

This one is still there, seen it in person many, many times:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.9867418,-112.1232762,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0UMdBVvm6msUmVpL1UbIOA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664!6m1!1e1?hl=en

Then down in Valle you got this one showing US 180 and AZ 64 co-signed to the Grand Canyon:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6519594,-112.1381862,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9vG-JhFcHD1m-tObqZUovw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Honestly all of AZ 64 should either be part of US 64 or US 160 by now....so as it stands the current multiplex seems justified to get a US Highway to the National Park.

Sonic99

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 181
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Prescott, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 12:27:31 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2016, 01:46:35 AM »

Hmm, I could have sworn I've seen "END 180" at the intersection in Valle, but as of those pictures, you're right. My mistake.
Logged
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 788
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: May 12, 2017, 12:42:29 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2016, 02:00:02 AM »

That 180 switch happened fairly recently, at least on signage. I would guess that it got confusing for visitors, since you had to know which 64 you wanted, and most visitors don't know where Cameron is. Personally, I think the eastern 64 should be renumbered. There's no reason for it to be numbered 64, and it's not like Arizona is hurting for highway route numbers.

We've seen the crazy issues the 202 has had with getting approval and going through the lawsuit-after-lawsuit process, and that's on a route that was put on paper 31 years ago.

And that was kind of my point. You could make the excuse "Well, those are rich Ahwatukee people so of course they went all NIMBY," but I think I've brought up the culture of Picture Rocks and the Avra Valley on here before. If I haven't, then let it be known that these people out there will never lay down and let a freeway come through. These aren't office workers in tract houses; these are recluses and retirees in trailer homes. Picture Rocks likes the 45-minute commute into town because it keeps the Sunbelt afflictions far away: chain restaurants, cookie-cutter subdivisions and watered lawns. Widening Sandario or Picture Rocks Roads would bring hellfire, so I can't imagine what the public meetings on this interstate proposal would be like. Maybe not ADOT, but Pima County certainly has an idea of how these people are and knows better than to propose a freeway on top of them.
Then there's the proximity to the national park, Tucson Mountain Park, Ironwood Forest National Monument, and the Tohono O'Odham Nation. The latter still bitches about allowing them to put in the little telescopes on Kitt Peak, and there was recently a very bitter legal battle with the state over their casino in Glendale, so I don't see them too keen on allowing an interstate to run up against a far-flung part of their land.
You've also got Tucson Water's Avra Valley aquifer recharge facility (CAVSARP) out there, so you've got yet another environmental concern.

Funny story: when I had my truck, I tried to go watch the sunset around the area where I-11 is going to plow through Picture Rocks. I ended up going too fast, missing a bend, and into a wash, where I got stuck in the sand. And the point here is to emphasize how rural this is: I had to open a gate and was on a one-lane "road" when I got stuck, and I was only about two miles west of Sandario Road.
If you're curious on the outcome: I was saved by a guy in a 4x4 Blazer who just happened to have a tow rope, and was very dodgy when I questioned what he was doing out there.
Logged

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2658
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:52:12 AM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2016, 05:30:59 AM »

I am in agreement with others here that the plans for a parallel highway, and that pointless multiplex are egregious. I also find it extremely irritating how much planners are getting carried away with the southern part of I-11.  :banghead: I'd totally support a connection between 10 and 19, as well as a western bypass of Tucson, but only if it connects with I-10 somewhere near Marana, instead of redundantly running parallel to it. Also, I don't like the thought of it west of the White Tanks one bit. :no:
Frankly, I don't think any I-11 extension corridor will ever go south of Casa Grande -- if even that far!  It won't be a matter of opposition by Native Americans, recluse retirees, or environmental activists -- it'll be a matter of both money and waning interest in stretching "commerce corridors" down to every available border crossing.  Right now it's like a kid with a new toy (or the box the new toy came in!) -- planners and/or developers with stars in their eyes are taking a literalist view of the "Canamex" corridor -- you know, the one that goes from Nogales to Sweetwater -- and planning a whole new facility opening up new territories to exploit (whereas the original HPC 26 definition assumed overlay on I-19 and I-10 before striking out on its own toward Vegas).  IMHO, when reality sets in down the line, I-11 will shrink back to Casa Grande (or even Gila Bend -- or Avondale!), redefined as the Phoenix-Vegas corridor we all know & love, with a possible Phoenix-avoiding "relief route" tacked on for good measure.  In any case, I-19 is safe for at least my lifetime, and the regional tribal governments will resume griping about everything else in & around them. 

Interstate/other freeway corridors are simply a methodology to accomplish particular transportation needs, framed by political realities.  When a methodology somehow "morphs" into ideology, perspective is the first thing to be tossed out the window.  A striking example is the I-69 "triad" in South Texas; a physically different but equally overwrought concept can be seen in the AZ I-11 arena.  The very idea of a fresh new corridor is in the process of being sold to whomever will listen -- but when push comes to shove, we'll all just have to see if enthusiasm translates to ongoing political will when it comes time to actually finance and build the thing!
Logged

Max Rockatansky

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5378
  • Location: Route 9, Sector 26
  • Last Login: Today at 02:18:20 PM
Re: What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2016, 09:49:24 AM »

Hmm, I could have sworn I've seen "END 180" at the intersection in Valle, but as of those pictures, you're right. My mistake.

That 180 switch happened fairly recently, at least on signage. I would guess that it got confusing for visitors, since you had to know which 64 you wanted, and most visitors don't know where Cameron is. Personally, I think the eastern 64 should be renumbered. There's no reason for it to be numbered 64, and it's not like Arizona is hurting for highway route numbers.

Funny story: when I had my truck, I tried to go watch the sunset around the area where I-11 is going to plow through Picture Rocks. I ended up going too fast, missing a bend, and into a wash, where I got stuck in the sand. And the point here is to emphasize how rural this is: I had to open a gate and was on a one-lane "road" when I got stuck, and I was only about two miles west of Sandario Road.
If you're curious on the outcome: I was saved by a guy in a 4x4 Blazer who just happened to have a tow rope, and was very dodgy when I questioned what he was doing out there.


Supposedly it was back in 2003.  I do recall a time when it was at Valle near the turn of the century and I want to say there was an END sign like you said.  The weird thing is that all three routes; 64 south, US 180 east, and 64 east will take you back to Flagstaff one way or the other.  In fact really all three ways aren't that substantially longer than each other, probably the easiest is to take AZ 64 south to I-40 east:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Mather+Point,+Grand+Canyon+Village,+AZ+86023/Flagstaff,+AZ/@35.5164239,-112.2135109,9z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x87331092e38bb8e1:0x2cc228f9ec5151d0!2m2!1d-112.1098271!2d36.061923!1m5!1m1!1s0x872d8ef7da2e2631:0x8e1f3ca1cedbb300!2m2!1d-111.651302!2d35.1982836?hl=en

And if you're heading to the Iron Forest National Monument from Marana on Silverbell Road you get some interesting warning signs about watching out for cartel members.  Apparently they run drugs up from Sonora and pop out somewhere near the Silverbell Mine.  Border Patrol usually has a vehicle or two out there searching and generally will give you the stink eye if you're heading out to Ironwood for whatever reason.  And they want to build an Interstate here?....there isn't anything out there but the Silverbell and Sasco ghost towns.  There isn't even a WATER supply out there to capture from.  If you look at most of the development in the Sonoran desert it's mostly near a river or major stream where it can be impounded.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 09:57:09 AM by Max Rockatansky »
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.