AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

New rules for political content in signatures and user profiles. See this thread for details.

Author Topic: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?  (Read 11650 times)

AlexandriaVA

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1000
  • Location: Virginia
  • Last Login: May 15, 2019, 04:19:33 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2016, 10:50:46 AM »

The legal distinction between a county and a city is a Very Big Deal in Virginia. Aside from the issues noted above, a city does not enjoy the sovereign immunity a county does. The topic is important enough that the bar review classes devote an entire day to it.

That would probably explain why Arlington County hasn't made any effort to become a city.

Unlikely...Arlington is as rich as they come. Bigger issue is the political pain...Richmond would want something in return for "giving up" Arlington without much gain.

I always enjoy comparing Arlington and Alexandria since they're both small polities in the same metropolitan area, but one being a county and the other a city. Both certainly have their own distinct cultures and ways of doing business.
Logged

froggie

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10440
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: May 18, 2019, 10:27:20 PM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2016, 10:51:56 AM »

I find that curious considering that a city is required to provide all the same services that a county does.

I was also under the impression that cities had more local control than a county does.  It certainly holds true for transportation and local streets.
Logged

AlexandriaVA

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1000
  • Location: Virginia
  • Last Login: May 15, 2019, 04:19:33 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2016, 10:58:59 AM »

Taxation, I think as well to a certain degree.

The concept I believe stems from the idea that cities were founded by their own charters, wereas counties were created out of unincorporated by the power of the state government.

This arrangement probably made sense when the majority of Virginia's population lived in rural areas, but I don't see any practical value of giving Arlington a political status more along the lines of Tazewell County than Alexandria City.
Logged

Mapmikey

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2612
  • Co-curator with Froggie of www.vahighways.com

  • Age: 49
  • Last Login: Today at 09:34:17 PM
    • Co-curator Virginia Highways Project
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2016, 01:08:32 PM »

A good summary of what cities, counties, and towns can/can't do (as of 2009) can be found here:

http://www.dhcd.virginia.gov/CommissiononLocalGovernment/PDFs/Function.pdf
Logged
Clinch:
I: 4 8 12 16 17 20 26 27 30 40 59 64 66 68 72 73 ew74 77 78 79 82 83 ew84 85 ew86 e88 97 99
US: 4 6N 9W 11E 11W 13 15 19W 21 44 46 48 58 72 92 113 117 123 130 158 163 176 178 192 206 209 211 219 220 221 222 258 264 276 290 311 319 322 340 360 378 401 ew422 501 521 522 601 701
PriSys: VA, DE

1995hoo

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 9950
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Fairfax County, Virginia
  • Last Login: Today at 09:03:02 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2016, 07:28:23 PM »

That's a pretty good and accurate summary. The key thing, for purposes of talking about Arlington, is the moratorium on creating any new cities (although existing cities can still revert to town status, as Clifton Forge did a few years ago). Independent cities are created by the General Assembly and—grossly oversimplifying here—as a general matter they have only the powers granted to them in their charters.

The "local control" isn't always the blessing it may sound like because with it goes a lot of local responsibility where the Commonwealth doesn't provide funding for various things for which the counties do receive funding. That's one reason why the independent cities are usually allowed the power to impose certain taxes the counties aren't.

Local government law in Virginia is a really complex topic that isn't easy to distill in a forum like this one. The sovereign immunity thing is a bigger deal than "AlexandriaVA" suggests because sovereign immunity (immunity from suit) is taken extremely seriously under Virginia law and it means Arlington is not subject to lawsuits for some things that Alexandria might be. That's not a trivial matter.
Logged
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

VTGoose

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 247
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: Blacksburg, VA
  • Last Login: May 18, 2019, 10:28:21 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2016, 12:37:44 PM »

Local government law in Virginia is a really complex topic that isn't easy to distill in a forum like this one. The sovereign immunity thing is a bigger deal than "AlexandriaVA" suggests because sovereign immunity (immunity from suit) is taken extremely seriously under Virginia law and it means Arlington is not subject to lawsuits for some things that Alexandria might be. That's not a trivial matter.

Virginia local government is an odd and sometimes bizarre construct that seems to be unique to the Commonwealth. Sovereign immunity isn't just for counties, as someone in Roanoke found out when a Roanoke City garbage truck damaged his car (Roanoke Times article here : http://goo.gl/r0Jkf2). Virginia operates under the Dillon Rule, which says local governments can only do those things approved by the General Assembly, which limits doing things like adding a lodging tax, cigarette tax, or the like without action from Richmond (which likes to keep tight reins on taxation for itself). Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk). One of the current problems is that cities must provide the things that counties provide -- schools, courts, and police. Due to declining state support for education, some cities have thrown in the towel and reverted back to town status, like Bedford.

Bruce in Blacksburg 
Logged

froggie

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10440
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: May 18, 2019, 10:27:20 PM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2016, 01:18:22 PM »

Quote
Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond Princess Anne County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk Virginia Beach).

FTFY.
Logged

cpzilliacus

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10222
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: May 15, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2016, 01:47:42 PM »

Quote
Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond Princess Anne County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk Virginia Beach).

FTFY.


As I remember, it was a fear of annexation by the "older" cities on the south side of Hampton Roads, Portsmouth and Norfolk (in  part because of the school system integration that would come with same) that led to Princess Anne County effectively being annexed in its entirety by Virginia Beach; Norfolk County and the City of South Norfolk merging and becoming City of Chesapeake; and Nansemond County becoming City of Nansemond and then quickly merging with the City of Suffolk to create the large (in land area) City of Suffolk.   

The end result being that "older" Norfolk and Portsmouth were surrounded (at least on land) by three large cities instead of counties, and as cities (even newly-established ones), they were entirely immune to annexation efforts by the "old" cities.

There were ugly annexation battles between City of Alexandria and Fairfax County back in the 1960's as well, though I think they ended up being settled with both sides not too angry at each other.

There's a great discussion of these matters on the Virginia Places Web site here and here (this one discussing the reason for the lack of counties in Hampton Roads).

The Virginia News Letter (2012): Virginia’s Never-ending Moratorium on City-County Annexations (.pdf)

Washington Post article about annexation wars in Virginia from 1981: Annexation.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 08:52:01 PM by cpzilliacus »
Logged
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

74/171FAN

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1571
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Harrisburg, PA
  • Last Login: Today at 08:09:22 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2016, 02:05:08 PM »

I remember my parents telling me that their house (in Prince George County, where I lived as a child) was supposed to have been annexed by the city of Hopewell at some point in the late 1980s I think.  All I remember being told offhand is that the line was supposed to extend to VA 106/VA 156 (Ruffin Rd) in some manner.

Personally, I am glad that I was in the Prince George County school system instead of the Hopewell school system.  (for many reasons I will not explain here)
Logged
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

cpzilliacus

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10222
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: May 15, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2016, 09:00:00 PM »

I remember my parents telling me that their house (in Prince George County, where I lived as a child) was supposed to have been annexed by the city of Hopewell at some point in the late 1980s I think.  All I remember being told offhand is that the line was supposed to extend to VA 106/VA 156 (Ruffin Rd) in some manner.

Though at that point, I think Hopewell and Prince George County would have had to agree on an annexation, since I believe the Virginia General Assembly's moratorium on "hostile" annexations was in effect.

Personally, I am glad that I was in the Prince George County school system instead of the Hopewell school system.  (for many reasons I will not explain here)

There are often differences between close-by public schools.  The City of Fairfax (entirely surrounded by  Fairfax County and its nationally-respected Fairfax County Public Schools) did (IMO) the smart thing by essentially outsourcing all of its education responsibilities to Fairfax County Public Schools. 

Williamsburg and James City County  have a "joint" public school system, and there may be others like that across Virginia that I am not aware of.
Logged
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

VTGoose

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 247
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: Blacksburg, VA
  • Last Login: May 18, 2019, 10:28:21 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2016, 02:28:03 PM »

Quote
Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond Princess Anne County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk Virginia Beach).

FTFY.

That wasn't a fix since what I posted was correct.  :nod:  What you should have posted was an addition since Princess Anne/Virginia Beach came about in the same manner -- to protect themselves from annexation, as cpzilliacus noted in the message that followed.

Annexation was both ugly and fruitful in this part of the state. Christiansburg in the '80s sucked up large parts of Montgomery County, adding what is now the large commercial area along U.S. 460 and VA 114, along with several large residential subdivisions. Blacksburg tried to work a deal in that move that would have made VA 114 the boundary between the two towns, but was shot down.

Over in Radford, the city worked out an agreement with Pulaski County over Fairlawn just across the New River. Radford was eyeing the commercial strip along U.S. 11 for annexation, but instead worked out a revenue-sharing deal that allowed Pulaski County to keep that area and collect the taxes, which worked out the best for both sides.

Bruce in Blacksburg
Logged

froggie

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10440
  • Location: Greensboro, VT
  • Last Login: May 18, 2019, 10:27:20 PM
    • Froggie's Place
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2016, 05:05:37 PM »

Norfolk wasn't in a position to annex anything in what is now Suffolk.  Portsmouth was, but Norfolk wasn't.

And nothing I've found in Nansemond County's history suggests that they merged with Suffolk to prevent annexation.  If you have something that suggests otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.
Logged

Thing 342

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1222
  • Age: 21
  • Location: Hampton / Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 10:15:33 PM
    • Thing 342's Road Photos
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2016, 06:03:49 PM »

Quote
Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond Princess Anne County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk Virginia Beach).

FTFY.

That wasn't a fix since what I posted was correct.  :nod:  What you should have posted was an addition since Princess Anne/Virginia Beach came about in the same manner -- to protect themselves from annexation, as cpzilliacus noted in the message that followed.

Annexation was both ugly and fruitful in this part of the state. Christiansburg in the '80s sucked up large parts of Montgomery County, adding what is now the large commercial area along U.S. 460 and VA 114, along with several large residential subdivisions. Blacksburg tried to work a deal in that move that would have made VA 114 the boundary between the two towns, but was shot down.

Over in Radford, the city worked out an agreement with Pulaski County over Fairlawn just across the New River. Radford was eyeing the commercial strip along U.S. 11 for annexation, but instead worked out a revenue-sharing deal that allowed Pulaski County to keep that area and collect the taxes, which worked out the best for both sides.

Bruce in Blacksburg
Bruce, do you know the reason why Blacksburg is still part of Montgomery, despite being more populous than say, Radford?
Logged

cpzilliacus

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10222
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: May 15, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
Re: What\'s the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2016, 08:29:52 PM »

Norfolk wasn't in a position to annex anything in what is now Suffolk.  Portsmouth was, but Norfolk wasn't.

I agree.  A map of Nansemond County, Portsmouth and Norfolk makes that pretty clear. I was talking generally about Norfolk and Portsmouth getting "walled in" by the three new cities that formed south, east and west of those two.

And nothing I've found in Nansemond County's history suggests that they merged with Suffolk to prevent annexation.  If you have something that suggests otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Read this from 2004 (some of which is obviously dated, such as VDOT maintaining roads in Suffolk), which seems to imply (and I have heard from talking with others over the years) that Nansemond County did not wish to have its land annexed by Portsmouth, and merged with several towns to create the City of Nansemond, and then old City of Suffolk (leaving the City of Suffolk as the survivor) to prevent that.

Post Merge: October 15, 2016, 08:37:54 PM
Bruce, do you know the reason why Blacksburg is still part of Montgomery, despite being more populous than say, Radford?

I am not Bruce, but I speculate that Blacksburg may wish to remain a town (and thus part of Montgomery County) so that it does not have to fund a courts system, sheriff, jail and a public schools system
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 08:37:54 PM by 74/171FAN »
Logged
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 9950
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Fairfax County, Virginia
  • Last Login: Today at 09:03:02 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2016, 08:49:54 PM »

The key is, as VPIGoose noted, that there were a lot of consolidations in a very short time in that part of Virginia. Look at how that area is dominated by cities now. It's because the old cities would have swallowed up the area had the rest of them not acted on their own to avoid it. What the timetable would have been, who knows. It would have happened. The annexation problem was not unique to southeastern Virginia; it happened in various areas (Charlottesville and Albemarle was another) because the counties felt the cities had too much unilateral authority. The counties were probably right on that one.

No need to be so hyperactive in terms of correcting each other, though I understand some people would be upset if you failed to acknowledge a single skip line of abnormal length on the entire length of I-95.
Logged
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

VTGoose

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 247
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: Blacksburg, VA
  • Last Login: May 18, 2019, 10:28:21 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2016, 10:09:59 PM »

Bruce, do you know the reason why Blacksburg is still part of Montgomery, despite being more populous than say, Radford?

Blacksburg has a somewhat limited tax base* and really nothing to gain by going for city status. There was an attempt and a vote to pursue city status back in the '80s but it failed. One of the reasons the opponents cited for staying in the county was that as a city, Blacksburg would have no connection and no say in how Montgomery County handled zoning and development in the areas just outside the boundaries. The cost factor of supporting required services, mainly courts and schools (even if contracted with the county, since most of the schools in the town limits have both town and county students) was also a downside. Since then, because of how supervisor districts are divided up based on population, Blacksburg is divided among multiple districts, which gives the town a slight advantage in numbers of the Board of Supervisors and the School Board (although a shift in the last election gave the Republicans a 4-3 partisan majority on the supervisors). There is still some tension between Blacksburg and the rest of the county, where some residents (wrongly) believe "Blacksburg gets everything" (especially in the schools). Because of Virginia Tech, housing values in town never really took a hit when the real estate market went south. Buying a house in town costs a whole lot more than buying in Christiansburg or the county. Blacksburg contributes a large amount of money to the county budget now through property taxes so can exert a bit of influence when there are discussions about county projects that might impact the town.

*Blacksburg has the Virginia Tech campus taking up a large part of the land within the town limits, plus county property taken up with five schools (now six, plus the old high school and former middle school site). There is also a large area between the 460 bypass and Brush Mountain that could be developed but won't be since there is a small but vocal group of "tree huggers" who won't allow it (its complicated). At the time of the vote for city status, the town didn't have a very strong commercial/industrial tax base and there was concern that the property tax burden on homeowners would be onerous.

Bruce in Blacksburg
Logged

cpzilliacus

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10222
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: May 15, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2016, 12:55:13 AM »

The key is, as VPIGoose noted, that there were a lot of consolidations in a very short time in that part of Virginia. Look at how that area is dominated by cities now. It's because the old cities would have swallowed up the area had the rest of them not acted on their own to avoid it. What the timetable would have been, who knows. It would have happened. The annexation problem was not unique to southeastern Virginia; it happened in various areas (Charlottesville and Albemarle was another) because the counties felt the cities had too much unilateral authority. The counties were probably right on that one.

I suppose if cities were parts of counties (as they usually are in the other 49 states), then annexation of land by a Virginia city  would be rather like a Virginia town annexing unincorporated lands outside its corporate limits. 

There have been annexation controversies in Maryland as well, but because the county boundaries are not impacted by municipal annexations (except Baltimore City, which has not annexed for nearly a century and is now effectively not allowed to annex), it's not the same.

No need to be so hyperactive in terms of correcting each other, though I understand some people would be upset if you failed to acknowledge a single skip line of abnormal length on the entire length of I-95.

My comment about the two "old" cities (Norfolk and Portsmouth) being "walled-off" from any new annexations was informed by talking with people that know the history of the Hampton Roads area of Virginia much better than I. 

There were proposals advanced by the federal courts for busing of public school students to meet desegregation goals that would have impacted various parts of the Commonwealth, including Hampton Roads (I do not know if busing plans were ever implemented there or elsewhere in Virginia), but I believe that public school issues in general, and busing in particular, made annexation by Norfolk and Portsmouth less than welcome in those former counties.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 12:57:30 AM by cpzilliacus »
Logged
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

  • Everybody Obeys the Octagon
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12371
  • Elimitante the truck trarffic,

  • Age: 36
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Last Login: Today at 10:30:39 PM
    • Alps' Roads
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2016, 12:37:57 PM »

Is it VA 624, SR 624, or SSR 624?  I've seen all three of them in various places.
Late to the game...
For any state where there are state-maintained secondary routes that repeat by county, I refer to them as "Accomack SR 676" (example). That specifies the location, in a state with multiple SR's of the same number, while clarifying that it's not a County Route or CR. For states where secondary routes don't repeat, SR is sufficient. For states with county routes that don't repeat (I'm looking at you, Iowa), I wouldn't include the county either. It slightly irks me when people in NJ refer to "Burlington CR 543". It's just CR 543. Same one in every county.

cpzilliacus

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10222
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: May 15, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2016, 12:44:15 PM »

Is it VA 624, SR 624, or SSR 624?  I've seen all three of them in various places.
Late to the game...
For any state where there are state-maintained secondary routes that repeat by county, I refer to them as "Accomack SR 676" (example). That specifies the location, in a state with multiple SR's of the same number, while clarifying that it's not a County Route or CR. For states where secondary routes don't repeat, SR is sufficient. For states with county routes that don't repeat (I'm looking at you, Iowa), I wouldn't include the county either. It slightly irks me when people in NJ refer to "Burlington CR 543". It's just CR 543. Same one in every county.

That's a good idea, especially since Virginia's secondary system route numbers repeat all over the Commonwealth, especially those in the 600 to (about) 900 range.

I was under the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that the New Jersey  numbered "secondary" highway  route numbers (those in the 500 to 699 range) do not repeat (of course, that is easier for New Jersey to accomplish since the Garden State has a much smaller land area than the Commonwealth of Virginia).
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 10:46:42 PM by cpzilliacus »
Logged
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

hbelkins

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13120
  • It is well, it is well, with my soul.

  • Age: 57
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Last Login: Today at 05:57:58 PM
    • Millennium Highway
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2016, 06:27:40 PM »

How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

I don't think very many of West Virginia's county (secondary) routes do, if any.
Logged

74/171FAN

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1571
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Harrisburg, PA
  • Last Login: Today at 08:09:22 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2016, 08:14:36 PM »

How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

I believe most do, but I am sure there are exceptions that keep me from thinking of any sort of a percentage.
Logged
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

1995hoo

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 9950
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Fairfax County, Virginia
  • Last Login: Today at 09:03:02 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2016, 08:42:13 PM »

I cannot offer a percentage (froggie or Mapmikey might be able to do so), but I certainly know some of them do. Here in Northern Virginia, Route 620 (Braddock Road) readily comes to mind.

It doesn't necessarily "invalidate" using a county or city name, of course. It just counsels caution in doing so.
Logged
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10222
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: May 15, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
Re: What\'s the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2016, 09:23:46 PM »

How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

Most Virginia secondary roads that cross county borders do not change route numbers (note that I exclude cases where a city is involved, since Virginia cities generally do not sign secondaries, nor cases where a county boundary is also a town boundary on one side for the same  reason).

The two secondaries that I can immediately think of in Northern Virginia that cross the line are 620 (Hoo mentioned that one); 612 (Yates Ford Road) between Prince William and Fairfax Counties); and 659 between Prince William and Loudoun Counties.

621 (Freemans Ford Road) crosses the Rappahannock River (also the border between Culpeper County and Fauquier County).

Then there's the matter of 601 that roughly straddles the boundary between Clarke and Loudoun Counties at the crest of the Blue Ridge (and passes by the federal Mount Weather complex, much beloved by conspiracy theorists).

606 exists in Fairfax and Loudoun Counties, but it "gaps" at the county line, because it crosses into the Town of Herndon on the Fairfax County side, though Herndon is the rare Virginia municipality that signs at least one secondary road (this one) within its corporate limits.  On the other side of Herndon, the VDOT-posted route number happily resumes.

Post Merge: October 16, 2016, 09:57:45 PM
I believe most do, but I am sure there are exceptions that keep me from thinking of any sort of a percentage.

I cannot name a secondary route in Virginia that changes numbers at a county line, though there's probably somewhere a primary route that becomes a secondary at a county line, which  means the route number has to change.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 09:57:46 PM by 74/171FAN »
Logged
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

74/171FAN

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1571
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Harrisburg, PA
  • Last Login: Today at 08:09:22 PM
Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2016, 10:01:00 PM »

I believe most do, but I am sure there are exceptions that keep me from thinking of any sort of a percentage.
I cannot name a secondary route in Virginia that changes numbers at a county line, though there's probably somewhere a primary route that becomes a secondary at a county line, which  means the route number has to change.

Neither can I hence my statement, though there could be a random exception that none of us know about from what I can tell. However, I believe the primary route scenario happens with VA 67.   
Logged
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

hbelkins

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13120
  • It is well, it is well, with my soul.

  • Age: 57
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Last Login: Today at 05:57:58 PM
    • Millennium Highway
Re: What\'s the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2016, 10:48:27 PM »

I cannot name a secondary route in Virginia that changes numbers at a county line, though there's probably somewhere a primary route that becomes a secondary at a county line, which  means the route number has to change.

Happens with VA 68. Becomes a secondary at the Wise/Lee line for no apparent reason.
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.