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Author Topic: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP  (Read 7578 times)

MisterSG1

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Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« on: November 24, 2016, 07:43:07 AM »

No point in linking any articles, but John Tory, the stooge of Kathleen Wynne, is set to introduce gardiner/DVP tolls today.

At this point I don't have anything else to say.
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Alps

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2016, 10:24:20 AM »

I may be a little bit of a devil's advocate, but I actually support tolls, if they are done correctly. I don't know about Toronto (or even Ontario for that matter), but tolls are a great way to pay for expensive infrastructure projects (something Ontario doesn't seem to know how to do, considering their debt).

Federally, tolls should be implemented on parts of the Trans Canada to help finish twinning it from coast to coast (it's embarrassing the way it is currently especially in parts of BC such as Kicking Horse Pass). It will cost billions to do this, something both the provinces and the federal government just doesn't have.

I just hope that at least in Ontario, whoever wins the next election continues to complete road projects such as ON 69 and ON 417 as well as the twinning projects ON 11/17 and ON 17 near Kenora.

No one likes to pay tolls, but sometimes it's necessary to bite the bullet to get something done faster IMO.

haljackey

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2016, 06:11:09 PM »

Toronto is complaining much of the use is coming from out-of-townees which are not paying city taxes to maintain the roads.

To avoid this unfairness, I see 3 alternatives to all out tolling:
-Just toll out of town folks. If your license plate is registered at a Toronto address, you will not get dinged.
-Re-amalgamate Toronto to include cities like Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughn, Markham, etc. This would essentially create a 'super city', where everyone's taxes could go into maintaining these roads.
-Have the province operate/maintain the roads (not gonna happen, Ontario is broke).
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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2016, 09:03:47 PM »

That last one is what happens in nearly every other place in North America.

I guess I can kiss any hope of clinching the DVP goodbye.  I am not paying what I'm sure will be quite high bill by mail fees.  Thankfully I already have the Gardiner.
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US 41

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2016, 10:36:09 PM »

Most of the shunpikers will just use the 401 and 427 rather than the Gardiner and the DVP. I always thought the Gardiner and DVP were provincial highways, but I guess not.
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cbeach40

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2016, 09:20:50 AM »

No point in linking any articles, but John Tory, the stooge of Kathleen Wynne, is set to introduce gardiner/DVP tolls today.

At this point I don't have anything else to say.

Explain how John Tory is Wynne's stooge. Please use concrete examples and evidence to support your claim.

I may be a little bit of a devil's advocate, but I actually support tolls, if they are done correctly. I don't know about Toronto (or even Ontario for that matter), but tolls are a great way to pay for expensive infrastructure projects (something Ontario doesn't seem to know how to do, considering their debt).

Ontario's really embraced those sorts of alternative funding methods. The last three major highway projects in the province have all been delivered using that method (though the tolls for Herb Grey Pkwy won't be collected until the new bridge opens). On the non-highway side of things, PPP has been embraced on a number of fronts too.

The bigger downside of that is the Owner loses a bit of control over design, which can have some negative impacts to road users.

Federally, tolls should be implemented on parts of the Trans Canada to help finish twinning it from coast to coast (it's embarrassing the way it is currently especially in parts of BC such as Kicking Horse Pass). It will cost billions to do this, something both the provinces and the federal government just doesn't have.

The Ontario portion has approximately 1600 km of two lane TCH routing. Four laning in Northern Ontario typically runs $8-12M per km. So, you're talking around $16 Billion to twin it. On roads that have nowhere near enough traffic to ever hope to recoup the cost (not to mention that more traffic would take Highway 11, which is not significantly longer but would presumably be untolled).

No one likes to pay tolls, but sometimes it's necessary to bite the bullet to get something done faster IMO.

Completely agree. When people lament the tolls on 407E, it's good to remind them that they likely wouldn't have the highway for quite a while yet if it weren't being tolled.

Toronto is complaining much of the use is coming from out-of-townees which are not paying city taxes to maintain the roads.

To avoid this unfairness, I see 3 alternatives to all out tolling:
-Just toll out of town folks. If your license plate is registered at a Toronto address, you will not get dinged.
-Re-amalgamate Toronto to include cities like Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughn, Markham, etc. This would essentially create a 'super city', where everyone's taxes could go into maintaining these roads.
-Have the province operate/maintain the roads (not gonna happen, Ontario is broke).

As much as Toronto politicians want to spin it that way - "it's those who are not from here! Don't blame me, blame them!" - traffic on the DVP and Gardiner is pretty well 100% originating from or destined for locations in Toronto. So they as residents or the businesses they work/shop/etc at are paying into Toronto's tax base. It's local.

This is more a case of a mayor who is philosophically opposed to raising taxes, but needs money somehow.

Most of the shunpikers will just use the 401 and 427 rather than the Gardiner and the DVP. I always thought the Gardiner and DVP were provincial highways, but I guess not.

All through traffic already uses those routes, they move far better than the Gardiner-DVP. Those are entirely local access routes into central Toronto.

The westernmost about 6 km of the Gardiner was provincially-owned, but as Toronto development crept out to engulf it and therefore all traffic on it was local then it didn't make sense for the province to retain ownership of it. The balance of the Gardiner did receive provincial funding for its construction and some maintenance up until the mid 1990s. The DVP was and always has been municipally owned and maintained.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2016, 09:57:55 PM »

That last one is what happens in nearly every other place in North America.

I guess I can kiss any hope of clinching the DVP goodbye.  I am not paying what I'm sure will be quite high bill by mail fees.  Thankfully I already have the Gardiner.

That was today's news.

There was enough backlash in Toronto that the Mayor reneged on his initial plan.  Instead, he is now going to try and make up the $300 million in annual revenue exclusively through pay by mail fees from tourists visiting from New York State.
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cbeach40

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2016, 08:37:20 AM »

Must be a whole lotta stoogin' on Toronto City Council as moving forward with road tolls was overwhelmingly approved, 32-9.

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2016/12/13/council-backs-torys-move-to-impose-roll-road-tolls.html
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vdeane

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2016, 01:24:03 PM »

Why would it take 5 years to implement?  Tolling seems to me to be more of an on/off thing (the route is either tolled, or it's not), so I'm not sure what the difference in driving down the road in 2019 vs 2024 would be.

I wonder if I'll be able to find an excuse to clinch the DVP by then, slip in before the tolling starts?
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2016, 01:50:34 PM »

That last one is what happens in nearly every other place in North America.

I guess I can kiss any hope of clinching the DVP goodbye.  I am not paying what I'm sure will be quite high bill by mail fees.  Thankfully I already have the Gardiner.

That was today's news.

There was enough backlash in Toronto that the Mayor reneged on his initial plan.  Instead, he is now going to try and make up the $300 million in annual revenue exclusively through pay by mail fees from tourists visiting from New York State.

Does Canada have any enforcement ability against people from another country?  Would the mayor just hope that people see a bill and pay it?  Could someone be denied entry/detained at the border because when their passport is scanned, something comes up on the computer saying they owe a toll from a previous trip?
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 02:47:08 PM »

Why would it take 5 years to implement?  Tolling seems to me to be more of an on/off thing (the route is either tolled, or it's not), so I'm not sure what the difference in driving down the road in 2019 vs 2024 would be.

I wonder if I'll be able to find an excuse to clinch the DVP by then, slip in before the tolling starts?

These posts make me lol.

The idea of driving to another country to simply clinch a road is already using a lot of discretionary spending.  Incurring an additional $2 CDN toll would probably account for significantly less than 1% of your total trip cost.  In fact, regular swings in the price of fuel could have a greater impact on such a trip cost than paying a toll on the DVP.

Won't someone please think of the children!
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cbeach40

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2016, 04:44:36 PM »

Does Canada have any enforcement ability against people from another country?

Roads, vehicles, and traffic offences are provincial and municipal responsibilities, not federal.

Would the mayor just hope that people see a bill and pay it?  Could someone be denied entry/detained at the border because when their passport is scanned, something comes up on the computer saying they owe a toll from a previous trip?

In terms of the border issue, likely no. In terms of billing you, it depends on the jurisdiction and how willing they are to play ball. Using the 407ETR as a comparison, there are some states and provinces that do share their plate information with them, while some other states and provinces do not. So in the case of the latter they're somewhat stuck.

In terms of collecting from those who refuse to pay, I'm not sure if the collections process is really worth their while. However, in Toronto at least if your vehicle has three provincial offences against it (parking tickets, etc) and they find it in violation for a fourth time instead of writing a fourth ticket they will tow your vehicle.
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Alps

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2016, 06:12:18 PM »

Why would it take 5 years to implement?  Tolling seems to me to be more of an on/off thing (the route is either tolled, or it's not), so I'm not sure what the difference in driving down the road in 2019 vs 2024 would be.

I wonder if I'll be able to find an excuse to clinch the DVP by then, slip in before the tolling starts?
Something about time to design and construct, and not being a Cuomo state, it won't get rushed in 12 months.

vdeane

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2016, 08:03:48 PM »

Why would it take 5 years to implement?  Tolling seems to me to be more of an on/off thing (the route is either tolled, or it's not), so I'm not sure what the difference in driving down the road in 2019 vs 2024 would be.

I wonder if I'll be able to find an excuse to clinch the DVP by then, slip in before the tolling starts?

These posts make me lol.

The idea of driving to another country to simply clinch a road is already using a lot of discretionary spending.  Incurring an additional $2 CDN toll would probably account for significantly less than 1% of your total trip cost.  In fact, regular swings in the price of fuel could have a greater impact on such a trip cost than paying a toll on the DVP.

Won't someone please think of the children!
Laugh all you want, but if I go to a roadmeet in a place like Milwaukee or Minneapolis next year, and my choices for the return trip consist of deadheading down I-80/90, driving through Ontario along 403 and the QEW (netting clinches of 406 and 420), or driving through Ontario along 401, and I know tolls would be implemented on the DVP and Gardiner soon, I would be MUCH more likely to chose the latter option and add a diversion to clinch the last few km of the DVP I'm missing than I otherwise would be.

Also, it's not just the $2 toll, but the $20 pay by mail processing fee.  I am not getting TorontoPass or whatever they'll call it for one clinch.  I don't go rush down to NYC to clinch the East River bridges because of the constant talk of tolling them, even though the combined toll would be orders of magnitude higher.  Why?  Because I have E-ZPass!  Plus I'm sure that Toronto's policies won't be much better than the 407's (a road that has single-handedly turned off not only me but the entire rest of my family from the idea of using an all-electronic toll road).

Why would it take 5 years to implement?  Tolling seems to me to be more of an on/off thing (the route is either tolled, or it's not), so I'm not sure what the difference in driving down the road in 2019 vs 2024 would be.

I wonder if I'll be able to find an excuse to clinch the DVP by then, slip in before the tolling starts?
Something about time to design and construct, and not being a Cuomo state, it won't get rushed in 12 months.
Oh.  The article made it sound like some gantries would go online in 2019 and others wouldn't be installed until 2024.  Guess it's a very poorly phrased sentence (that, or Americans and Canadians have two different definitions for "phased in").
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2016, 08:46:22 PM »

Why would it take 5 years to implement?  Tolling seems to me to be more of an on/off thing (the route is either tolled, or it's not), so I'm not sure what the difference in driving down the road in 2019 vs 2024 would be.

I wonder if I'll be able to find an excuse to clinch the DVP by then, slip in before the tolling starts?

These posts make me lol.

The idea of driving to another country to simply clinch a road is already using a lot of discretionary spending.  Incurring an additional $2 CDN toll would probably account for significantly less than 1% of your total trip cost.  In fact, regular swings in the price of fuel could have a greater impact on such a trip cost than paying a toll on the DVP.

Won't someone please think of the children!
Laugh all you want, but if I go to a roadmeet in a place like Milwaukee or Minneapolis next year, and my choices for the return trip consist of deadheading down I-80/90, driving through Ontario along 403 and the QEW (netting clinches of 406 and 420), or driving through Ontario along 401, and I know tolls would be implemented on the DVP and Gardiner soon, I would be MUCH more likely to chose the latter option and add a diversion to clinch the last few km of the DVP I'm missing than I otherwise would be.

Also, it's not just the $2 toll, but the $20 pay by mail processing fee.  I am not getting TorontoPass or whatever they'll call it for one clinch.  I don't go rush down to NYC to clinch the East River bridges because of the constant talk of tolling them, even though the combined toll would be orders of magnitude higher.  Why?  Because I have E-ZPass!  Plus I'm sure that Toronto's policies won't be much better than the 407's (a road that has single-handedly turned off not only me but the entire rest of my family from the idea of using an all-electronic toll road).

Laugh all you want, but if I go to a roadmeet in a place like Milwaukee or Minneapolis next year, and my choices for the return trip consist of deadheading down I-80/90, driving through Ontario along 403 and the QEW (netting clinches of 406 and 420), or driving through Ontario along 401, and I know tolls would be implemented on the DVP and Gardiner soon, I would be MUCH more likely to chose the latter option and add a diversion to clinch the last few km of the DVP I'm missing than I otherwise would be.

Also, it's not just the $2 toll, but the $20 pay by mail processing fee.  I am not getting TorontoPass or whatever they'll call it for one clinch.  I don't go rush down to NYC to clinch the East River bridges because of the constant talk of tolling them, even though the combined toll would be orders of magnitude higher.  Why?  Because I have E-ZPass!  Plus I'm sure that Toronto's policies won't be much better than the 407's (a road that has single-handedly turned off not only me but the entire rest of my family from the idea of using an all-electronic toll road).

You have no idea what Toronto's policies will be regarding pay-by-mail tolling options.  The 407's policies are in all likelihood far more punitive to out of province travelers than Toronto's will be, simply because tourism is a valuable industry to Downtown Toronto.  React to the facts you read, not the facts that you make up.

Being honest, posts like this just read like someone wanting to complain about something on the internet, rather than provide actual intellectual stimulating conversation.  Posts like this increase the noise in the signal to noise ratio that is the internet.

Complaining about how the potential road tolls might affect how you value spending your own personal time is akin to Rob Curtis writing that "Rob Curtis is gearing up for Friday" on facebook.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 09:50:23 PM by AsphaltPlanet »
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haljackey

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2016, 11:27:10 PM »

Well said!  :clap:

-----

Toronto seriously needs to come up with new revenue sources if they want to expand transit services. I think I am actually supportive of tolling, especially if it's just a 2 dollar on/off toll, regardless of distance traveled (1 interchange or the entire highway costs the same). That goes against the 407, which charges you an entry fee, a camera fee if you don't have a transponder, plus your total kms on the highway.

These tolls will also help sell the hybrid plan for Gardiner East, which keeps the DVP connection grade-separated. It's far more attractive for drivers compared to the at-grade boulevard proposal.

It was either this or something like London U.K's congestion tax. It was going to happen eventually.



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MisterSG1

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2016, 11:41:56 PM »

You two, I'm talking to you Asphalt and Cbeach, can laugh at myself and V all you want, but I honestly can't fathom why so many would support these tolls.

The reasoning we hear from John Tory is "to build transit", but to build what exactly? Again, I've been asking for years, why is it that PRIVATE COMPANIES built the first subway lines in NYC (and operated them) at the turn of the 20th century and yet a century later, with so many advances in technology, they cost a ridiculous amount of money?

Cbeach, you refused to talk about transit in the past and transit is super relevant to this discussion. What they plan to build for the most part practically sucks.....the Crosstown LRT, watch and see how SLOW that thing will be in the outdoor portion east of Laird. Yeah, so thanks for nothing, just like any widening project in the GTA, what do they always end up....HOV lanes, again MTO, thanks for nothing. And the Sheppard East LRT, the TTC was very bold to design a future subway diagram that has the Sheppard East LRT on it.....MARK MY WORDS, and trust me, the Sheppard East LRT will be rebranded 515 Sheppard (assuming a new streetcar route is not created in the meantime)

We actually do have a subway line under construction.....and it's an extension of the LEAST UTILIZED portion of the two main lines. Gotta love that, Queen's Park could cough up the money because the Finance Minister at the time, Greg Sorbara, just happens to have investments in that area where the subway is going to end in Vaughan. Seriously, it's a tale of two subway rides, go north towards Finch at 5PM on a weekday one day, and then go north towards Downsivew on 5PM on another weekday, it's apples to oranges in how they are used. Hell, the AM service pattern of the line has HALF of the trains terminate service towards Downsivew at St. Clair West because it's not at all practical to run Northbound trains frequently up there.

If you want to talk about funding such extravagant projects without tolls or implementing "revenue tools", as Kathleen Wynne likes to say, I won't get into such details in how it could be done because you would not like what I have to say.


Tolls on the Gardiner/DVP has always been an elephant in the room for years....I'm sure the other elephant in the room regarding GTA transportation will possibly be discussed by Metrolinx, the decision to charge for parking at GO Stations.


Regarding toll collection, V is right on the nose, you can think they will make decisions that make sense especially regarding tourists, but will they, probably not. The whole idea is principle, when I take I-190 and cross the Grand Island Bridges, I understand that the toll is $1 to cross. However, if they had an AET system set up, it leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, a simple $1 toll easily turns into a toll that costs at least $5 or more. Let's not mention that the Gardiner toll could start at $2, but it could go up, out of control like how Metrolinx always raises the prices of GO Fares......and you wonder why my blood boil when I learn that some of the bus drivers make over $100,000.

Our friends in Quebec at least did the right thing when A-30 opened by constructing an old school toll plaza, at least it gives the people who want to bypass Montreal a simple toll and not some disgusting surcharge for not holding the special transponder for that area. They understood that there are going to be drivers (especially truckers), who want to simply bypass the area, but not get dinged for unfair camera charges.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2016, 11:47:37 PM »

Well said!  :clap:

-----

Toronto seriously needs to come up with new revenue sources if they want to expand transit services. I think I am actually supportive of tolling, especially if it's just a 2 dollar on/off toll, regardless of distance traveled (1 interchange or the entire highway costs the same). That goes against the 407, which charges you an entry fee, a camera fee if you don't have a transponder, plus your total kms on the highway.

These tolls will also help sell the hybrid plan for Gardiner East, which keeps the DVP connection grade-separated. It's far more attractive for drivers compared to the at-grade boulevard proposal.

It was either this or something like London U.K's congestion tax. It was going to happen eventually.

Why should any "congestion tax" happen over here, for god sakes, THIS IS NOT EUROPE, and my god, it will never be Europe.

Of course, assuming that the Gardiner/DVP tolls use AET (which I think is a given at this point), if one doesn't have the transponder, obviously there is going to be some sort of camera charge for the intel in finding where the owner of that license plate lives, and sending a bill to that person's residence. All this costs money and it isn't free.

Basically, if you want to know what I have to say, how does New Brunswick of all places, a place with a population with a measly 750,000, afford to construct all those freeways they have built in the last 15 years or so. I've taken NB-2, and in midday, it was a very lonely drive, I think I ran into 3 other vehicles on the entire Grand Falls-Woodstock stretch. Even a more punch to the gut is how these roads have no tolls on them. I've said for years that Ottawa should fork over a huge amount of money for transit projects, if you can't see why it's justifiable, just connect the dots and you'll understand.
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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2016, 12:50:47 AM »

NB isn't the best counterexample. Most of their highway funding was to compensate for rail abandonments.

That being said, a real issue here is that, unlike most expressways but like a few in NYC, the Gardiner and DVP are city-maintained, so they're not getting provincial funding. I don't know how Canada allocates federal road funding, but it's possible that these roads aren't eligible. Tolls would theoretically reduce congestion by encouraging transit use. However, I see a decent amount of local traffic just shunpiking and making Lake Shore, Bayview and Don Mills pure hell.
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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2016, 08:08:02 AM »

You two, I'm talking to you Asphalt and Cbeach, can laugh at myself and V all you want, but I honestly can't fathom why so many would support these tolls.

Val is complaining because it is going to cost very slightly more to aimlessly drive some roads.  Aimlessly driving roads is an excellent way to piss away money.  (I should know, I'm great at it).

If someone wants to argue why tolls are a bad thing, based on the actual merits of the project, I'm all ears.  However, listening to someone whine about the fact that the next time they are going to set fire to a pocketful of their money, that they'll have to burn a couple of extra bucks is frankly irrelevant and annoying.
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cl94

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2016, 09:11:10 AM »

Yep. Driving in Canada isn't cheap. The toll will cost as much a 2 litres of gas. That's not too much in the grand scheme of things.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2016, 09:41:55 AM »

Yep. Driving in Canada isn't cheap. The toll will cost as much a 2 litres of gas. That's not too much in the grand scheme of things.

As the old proverb says "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", it may start as a $2 toll, but knowing Toronto council, it will probably easily snowball into a toll of $15 or more. That may not happen, but I am concerned as I would not trust council with the keys to the nuclear football.

Has anyone really thought carefully why 2019 is the implementation year? It's obvious, the next Toronto election is at the end of 2018 and I'm sure most voters will be indifferent as a toll will not have been implemented at that point.
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cbeach40

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2016, 10:32:26 AM »

You two, I'm talking to you Asphalt and Cbeach, can laugh at myself and V all you want, but I honestly can't fathom why so many would support these tolls.

I'm actually on the fence about them. But that means that I can see both benefits and drawbacks and I more than willing to discuss either. Such as when I said:

As much as Toronto politicians want to spin it that way - "it's those who are not from here! Don't blame me, blame them!" - traffic on the DVP and Gardiner is pretty well 100% originating from or destined for locations in Toronto. So they as residents or the businesses they work/shop/etc at are paying into Toronto's tax base. It's local.

This is more a case of a mayor who is philosophically opposed to raising taxes, but needs money somehow.

Not necessarily saying I support road tolls, more that I can understand the logic of them.

What I do not support is knee jerk naysaying. You're going to make a statement, great. That's the point of the forum. But back it up.


Cbeach, you refused to talk about transit in the past and transit is super relevant to this discussion.

No, it's not. That's why there's a mass transit section on this forum.

What they plan to build for the most part practically sucks.....the Crosstown LRT, watch and see how SLOW that thing will be in the outdoor portion east of Laird. Yeah, so thanks for nothing, just like any widening project in the GTA, what do they always end up....HOV lanes, again MTO, thanks for nothing. And the Sheppard East LRT, the TTC was very bold to design a future subway diagram that has the Sheppard East LRT on it.....MARK MY WORDS, and trust me, the Sheppard East LRT will be rebranded 515 Sheppard (assuming a new streetcar route is not created in the meantime)

I'd mark your words (and also trust you?) but there really isn't a coherent sentence to follow and mark in there.  :-D


If you want to talk about funding such extravagant projects without tolls or implementing "revenue tools", as Kathleen Wynne likes to say, I won't get into such details in how it could be done because you would not like what I have to say.

No, I'm actually curious of what you have to say. Please explain how our spending can be increased without increasing revenue.


Tolls on the Gardiner/DVP has always been an elephant in the room for years....I'm sure the other elephant in the room regarding GTA transportation will possibly be discussed by Metrolinx, the decision to charge for parking at GO Stations.

Those are the only loaded topics regarding GTA transportation? That's... well, that's something.

Regarding toll collection, V is right on the nose, you can think they will make decisions that make sense especially regarding tourists, but will they, probably not. The whole idea is principle, when I take I-190 and cross the Grand Island Bridges, I understand that the toll is $1 to cross. However, if they had an AET system set up, it leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, a simple $1 toll easily turns into a toll that costs at least $5 or more. Let's not mention that the Gardiner toll could start at $2, but it could go up, out of control like how Metrolinx always raises the prices of GO Fares......and you wonder why my blood boil when I learn that some of the bus drivers make over $100,000.

Well, that's pure speculation at this point.

Our friends in Quebec at least did the right thing when A-30 opened by constructing an old school toll plaza, at least it gives the people who want to bypass Montreal a simple toll and not some disgusting surcharge for not holding the special transponder for that area. They understood that there are going to be drivers (especially truckers), who want to simply bypass the area, but not get dinged for unfair camera charges.

So they have to charge a toll based on the extra cost of manned tollbooths, plus the fact that traffic has to stop. Installing manned toll booths on the Gardiner or DVP would make the existing traffic seem downright pleasant.
But in terms of the cost, so it's a case of whether you make everyone pay more across the board, or you ding those who barely use it slightly more.

As the old proverb says "The road to hell is paved with good intentions",

Which is not applicable in this case. Like, at all. It makes no sense in this context.  :pan:

it may start as a $2 toll, but knowing Toronto council, it will probably easily snowball into a toll of $15 or more. That may not happen, but I am concerned as I would not trust council with the keys to the nuclear football.

$15 toll for that? Going from $2 to $15 is something you think is reasonable. And based simply on supposition. Just... wow.
 :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Taking aside the utter disaster that would be for the transportation system, that's definitely a terrible plan financially and politically. Salami tactics/death by a thousand cuts/getting nickled and dimed... a little here, a little there, and people don't rise up. A massive increase like that is utter foolishness.

Has anyone really thought carefully why 2019 is the implementation year? It's obvious, the next Toronto election is at the end of 2018 and I'm sure most voters will be indifferent as a toll will not have been implemented at that point.

Wouldn't that make road tolls an election issue in 2018 then? Pushing it back until 2019 makes it an utterly massive election issue, exactly the opposite of what you said there.
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haljackey

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2016, 12:28:35 PM »


Why should any "congestion tax" happen over here, for god sakes, THIS IS NOT EUROPE, and my god, it will never be Europe.


Canada ain't Europe, but it ain't the USA either. We're more of a middle ground between the two.

The middle ground between a congestion tax and do nothing is exactly what this is.
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