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Author Topic: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP  (Read 8014 times)

lordsutch

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2016, 01:14:22 PM »

Honestly I think a C$2 toll is pretty reasonable for the DVP and Gardiner, given that commuters to downtown Toronto have reasonable transit alternatives on both corridors (both the subway and Go trains, along with bus routes along the DVP and Gardiner themselves). That said I think it really should only apply during commute times and/or be a variable toll based on congestion.

However with the province tolling the 407 extension it's about time for Ontario (and whatever agency ends up tolling the downtown expressways, whether it's TTC or Metrolinx) to join E-ZPass or work out some sort of interoperability agreement.
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cl94

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2016, 01:47:31 PM »

However with the province tolling the 407 extension it's about time for Ontario (and whatever agency ends up tolling the downtown expressways, whether it's TTC or Metrolinx) to join E-ZPass or work out some sort of interoperability agreement.

I agree completely. Enough people in Ontario have E-ZPass for the Niagara River bridges and the Thruway. You could probably get more New York people to consider using 407 if it was interoperable. I know I would if it just came out of my E-ZPass account instead of having to go online and pay separately.

While I do have fears that the $2 toll will eventually become $15 like the Port Authority has done over the Hudson, it might encourage more people to use the Subway and, like the MTA and PANYNJ, it could be used to fund transit improvements.
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vdeane

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2016, 01:55:20 PM »

I'm not against paying a toll per se.  I don't make much of an effort to shunpike tolls in the E-ZPass area; heck, I've paid the sky high rates on the NYC bridges/tunnels just to clinch stuff.  I've even paid to cross the American span of the Thousand Islands Bridge just to get some photos of I-81 (and because it's my favorite bridge).

What I am against is paying more because I'm not from the area, don't have the local transponder, the office took its sweet time to mail the bill, etc.  I don't even like E-ZPass states with different rates for people who have a transponder for their state and those who have transponders from other states.  Nothing I can do about that, though.  I can do something about this, though.  I live in upstate NY.  There are roadmeets in the midwest practically every year.  Passing through the area to snag the clinch before the tolls go into effect is NOT hard, I just need to make it a priority and hope it aligns with my travel plans.

Many places that have AET have not only higher tolls for people without a transponder, but also surcharges for being billed in the mail.  If they take too long to mail the bill, they can even charge late fees before your're even invoiced (this HAS happened with multiple AET toll roads in the US)!  Between the higher tolls and the fees, it all adds up, quite a lot.  Back in the day, everyone who drove the same distance on a toll road in the same vehicle class got the same bill.  Not any more, and that makes me angry.  While I do understand having some discount for having a transponder (it does, after all, cost more to collect cash at a booth), the price difference (especially) including fees is often more than is reasonable (see: ON 407, A-25, the MassPike, the Pennsylvania Turnpike, among others).  That said, my understanding is that the bill by mail rate for the Golden Gate Bridge is actually reasonable, so it at least happens a non-zero amount of the time, but it's not often.  Depending on the rates, it could be $2, or it could cost as much as half a tank of gas.

Personally, I find the idea of a small flat rate toll that is regardless of distance to be strange.  I also know that tolls in NYC, which are also used to support transit (as this toll is intended for), are sky high.  The reason?  Transit tends to be a financial black hole.  I would expect that toll to go up over time.  Even at $2, though, it DOES add up for the commuters who use the road every day.  I would expect a lot of traffic to divert and choke up the surface roads (and with Waze, no road is safe unless it's a dead end).

So, my desire to grab a clinch before the tolls come into effect is twofold: it's not exactly hard given my other travel priorities (ON 401 between Toronto and Kingston is on my todo list, as are many other 400 series highways), and because the past experience with AET in North America hasn't exactly been that great and I'm too stubborn to eat some costs even when they aren't terribly high in the big picture (not just AET either; I do my own taxes using a crappy electronic forms system instead of using software or hiring a tax preparer because I don't feel that I shouldn't have to do or pay for such a thing).

I would love to see Ontario (and Quebec; ideally also Nova Scotia and PEI) join E-ZPass or become interoperable (I think the 407 even uses the same technology as E-ZPass, so there's really no excuse other than the currency issue, and I can't see why something couldn't be worked out; credit/debit/ATM cards figured it out, why not toll transponders?).  Heck, when the Thousand Islands Bridge finally joins like they've been talking about for years now, there will be an E-ZPass toll that one could pay and remain entirely within Canada!  I would be much more likely to use the 407 system if it was interoperable, and most of my objections to this toll would evaporate if this occurred.  Alas, even within Canada, interoperability is extremely poor.  Quebec even has two different transponders in use in Montreal alone.  Based on Montreal, I would expect TornotoPass to be a new transponder interoperable with nothing, not even the 407.

I'll admit, I'm not the typical user of the road.  However, that doesn't mean that I have to be happy about this.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:57:31 PM by vdeane »
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Rothman

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2016, 03:21:31 PM »

Heh.  I remember when E-Z Pass on the Thousand Islands Bridge was part of NYSDOT's abortive Borders and Corridors ITS Strategic Plan about a decade ago. :D
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Brandon

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2016, 03:59:00 PM »

That last one is what happens in nearly every other place in North America.

I guess I can kiss any hope of clinching the DVP goodbye.  I am not paying what I'm sure will be quite high bill by mail fees.  Thankfully I already have the Gardiner.

That was today's news.

There was enough backlash in Toronto that the Mayor reneged on his initial plan.  Instead, he is now going to try and make up the $300 million in annual revenue exclusively through pay by mail fees from tourists visiting from New York State.

Does Canada have any enforcement ability against people from another country?  Would the mayor just hope that people see a bill and pay it?  Could someone be denied entry/detained at the border because when their passport is scanned, something comes up on the computer saying they owe a toll from a previous trip?

Depends on the state and the province.  Some states and provinces have agreements where they share information with each other.  Michigan and Ontario do this, as do New York and Ontario.
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Joe The Dragon

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2016, 12:06:34 AM »

I'm not against paying a toll per se.  I don't make much of an effort to shunpike tolls in the E-ZPass area; heck, I've paid the sky high rates on the NYC bridges/tunnels just to clinch stuff.  I've even paid to cross the American span of the Thousand Islands Bridge just to get some photos of I-81 (and because it's my favorite bridge).

What I am against is paying more because I'm not from the area, don't have the local transponder, the office took its sweet time to mail the bill, etc.  I don't even like E-ZPass states with different rates for people who have a transponder for their state and those who have transponders from other states.  Nothing I can do about that, though.  I can do something about this, though.  I live in upstate NY.  There are roadmeets in the midwest practically every year.  Passing through the area to snag the clinch before the tolls go into effect is NOT hard, I just need to make it a priority and hope it aligns with my travel plans.

Many places that have AET have not only higher tolls for people without a transponder, but also surcharges for being billed in the mail.  If they take too long to mail the bill, they can even charge late fees before your're even invoiced (this HAS happened with multiple AET toll roads in the US)!  Between the higher tolls and the fees, it all adds up, quite a lot.  Back in the day, everyone who drove the same distance on a toll road in the same vehicle class got the same bill.  Not any more, and that makes me angry.  While I do understand having some discount for having a transponder (it does, after all, cost more to collect cash at a booth), the price difference (especially) including fees is often more than is reasonable (see: ON 407, A-25, the MassPike, the Pennsylvania Turnpike, among others).  That said, my understanding is that the bill by mail rate for the Golden Gate Bridge is actually reasonable, so it at least happens a non-zero amount of the time, but it's not often.  Depending on the rates, it could be $2, or it could cost as much as half a tank of gas.

Personally, I find the idea of a small flat rate toll that is regardless of distance to be strange.  I also know that tolls in NYC, which are also used to support transit (as this toll is intended for), are sky high.  The reason?  Transit tends to be a financial black hole.  I would expect that toll to go up over time.  Even at $2, though, it DOES add up for the commuters who use the road every day.  I would expect a lot of traffic to divert and choke up the surface roads (and with Waze, no road is safe unless it's a dead end).

So, my desire to grab a clinch before the tolls come into effect is twofold: it's not exactly hard given my other travel priorities (ON 401 between Toronto and Kingston is on my todo list, as are many other 400 series highways), and because the past experience with AET in North America hasn't exactly been that great and I'm too stubborn to eat some costs even when they aren't terribly high in the big picture (not just AET either; I do my own taxes using a crappy electronic forms system instead of using software or hiring a tax preparer because I don't feel that I shouldn't have to do or pay for such a thing).

I would love to see Ontario (and Quebec; ideally also Nova Scotia and PEI) join E-ZPass or become interoperable (I think the 407 even uses the same technology as E-ZPass, so there's really no excuse other than the currency issue, and I can't see why something couldn't be worked out; credit/debit/ATM cards figured it out, why not toll transponders?).  Heck, when the Thousand Islands Bridge finally joins like they've been talking about for years now, there will be an E-ZPass toll that one could pay and remain entirely within Canada!  I would be much more likely to use the 407 system if it was interoperable, and most of my objections to this toll would evaporate if this occurred.  Alas, even within Canada, interoperability is extremely poor.  Quebec even has two different transponders in use in Montreal alone.  Based on Montreal, I would expect TornotoPass to be a new transponder interoperable with nothing, not even the 407.

I'll admit, I'm not the typical user of the road.  However, that doesn't mean that I have to be happy about this.

the 407 has high Monthly Transponder fees by joining EZ-Pass people get an account from a state that has a $0 pre mouth fee.
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cbeach40

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2016, 09:07:14 AM »

the 407 has high Monthly Transponder fees

The annual transponder lease is $23.50, which breaks down to $1.96 per month. CAA pegs the average annual cost of owning a small sedan at $6,729. If $23.50 is a big deal to you, perhaps car ownership isn't for you.

by joining EZ-Pass people get an account from a state that has a $0 pre mouth fee.

So where is the incentive for the private company to not charge the $4.05 video toll fees to people without a transponder? Maybe have an EZPass user fee then so they can recoup that lost revenue. Say, $4.05 for the EZPass fee?

The toll rate is specifically designed to maximize revenue - attract as many users as possible before service breaks down. There is zero advantage to them to inter-operate with EZ Pass or anyone else. Right now they have precisely as many customers as they want.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 09:33:32 AM by cbeach40 »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2016, 09:36:18 AM »

That last one is what happens in nearly every other place in North America.

I guess I can kiss any hope of clinching the DVP goodbye.  I am not paying what I'm sure will be quite high bill by mail fees.  Thankfully I already have the Gardiner.

That was today's news.

There was enough backlash in Toronto that the Mayor reneged on his initial plan.  Instead, he is now going to try and make up the $300 million in annual revenue exclusively through pay by mail fees from tourists visiting from New York State.

Does Canada have any enforcement ability against people from another country?  Would the mayor just hope that people see a bill and pay it?  Could someone be denied entry/detained at the border because when their passport is scanned, something comes up on the computer saying they owe a toll from a previous trip?

Depends on the state and the province.  Some states and provinces have agreements where they share information with each other.  Michigan and Ontario do this, as do New York and Ontario.

Right...but can any (and to clarify my 'Canada' remark earlier...) agency, province, city, etc enforce those violation notices for a citizen from another country?  For example, the notice goes to the owner of record for the vehicle. Can a border patrol agent deny that person entrance into the country based on that violation?  Do the local police, meter maids, etc, have access to that information?

Basically, and this would be the same in EZ Pass land here in the States as well, can New York go after someone from Canada, other than sending them the standard notice that they have to pay?
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cbeach40

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2016, 09:53:53 AM »

Right...but can any (and to clarify my 'Canada' remark earlier...) agency, province, city, etc enforce those violation notices for a citizen from another country?  For example, the notice goes to the owner of record for the vehicle. Can a border patrol agent deny that person entrance into the country based on that violation?  Do the local police, meter maids, etc, have access to that information?

Basically, and this would be the same in EZ Pass land here in the States as well, can New York go after someone from Canada, other than sending them the standard notice that they have to pay?

For parking tickets and the like, short answer is no, there's not much they can do. Unless your own state/province has a reciprocal agreement with Ontario then there's no real enforcement.
For Ontario if you have outstanding municipally issued tickets then you can't renew your plate. So that's the extent of punishment for that.

However if you're a repeat offender (3 or more violations) and they find your car illegally parked they'll tow it instead of just writing another ticket.
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Brandon

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2016, 10:19:24 AM »

the 407 has high Monthly Transponder fees

The annual transponder lease is $23.50, which breaks down to $1.96 per month. CAA pegs the average annual cost of owning a small sedan at $6,729. If $23.50 is a big deal to you, perhaps car ownership isn't for you.

It is a bit high, when compared to other toll road agencies.  For example, the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) charges a $10 refundable deposit for the I-Pass transponder (aka EZ Pass) plus $20 in preloaded tolls.  There is no monthly or annual fee.  The only fee charged is if you get the transponder at a Jewel-Osco (grocery chain), and they charge $2.90, payable to Jewel-Osco.  That's a one-time fee.  Quite frankly, ISHTA makes so much in tolls that charging anything extra just isn't worth it.
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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2016, 01:05:31 PM »

IMO annual/monthly fees for transponders should be illegal.  Interoperability should be mandated and the amount people have to pay the same no matter where their transponder is from.  There should not be minimum usage requirements for a transponder either.  These are basic things that should be part of a "toll road user bill of rights" that needs to be enshrined into law in both the US and Canada.

Quite frankly, I find the 407's price gouging and profiteering to be offensive.  Ontario ROYALLY screwed up when they sold the road.  If I had my way, that deal would be turned into confetti and the company booted out of the province, or at the very least, extremely strict regulations would be forced onto the company (if Ontario must keep them around, they should be restricted to a 10% profit margin on the base toll rate, and no profit on anything else; for that matter, it should be strictly forbidden for any organization in any capacity to make money off a "fee" as the purpose of a fee is to pass a cost incurred by what the consumer is doing onto the consumer, not to provide another profit center).

As for enforcement, any place with an agreement with Ontario would apply their own penalties.  So, if you rake up a lot of unpaid tolls, and your state would suspend your licence for that, if you state has that agreement, your licence would be suspended.  And while I don't believe arrest warrants are issued for unpaid tolls, they are for many other types of unpaid fees (at least in the US), and that would certainly be available to personnel at the border.  Even if there isn't an agreement or anything else, it could certainly come to bite you in the rear the next time you're in Ontario if the police spot your car.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 01:09:53 PM by vdeane »
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cbeach40

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2016, 01:20:31 PM »

Quite frankly, ISHTA makes so much in tolls that charging anything extra just isn't worth it.

If they make so much why is their work zone protection such utter crap? Crash attenuation? What's that?
 :)

IMO annual/monthly fees for transponders should be illegal.  Interoperability should be mandated and the amount people have to pay the same no matter where their transponder is from.  There should not be minimum usage requirements for a transponder either.  These are basic things that should be part of a "toll road user bill of rights" that needs to be enshrined into law in both the US and Canada.

Based on..? Other than the fact that you don't like it, is there a reason, based in actual legal rationale, for doing that?

Quite frankly, I find the 407's price gouging and profiteering to be offensive.  Ontario ROYALLY screwed up when they sold the road.

Leased, but agreed it is a bad contract.

If I had my way, that deal would be turned into confetti and the company booted out of the province, or at the very least, extremely strict regulations would be forced onto the company (if Ontario must keep them around, they should be restricted to a 10% profit margin on the base toll rate, and no profit on anything else; for that matter, it should be strictly forbidden for any organization in any capacity to make money off a "fee" as the purpose of a fee is to pass a cost incurred by what the consumer is doing onto the consumer, not to provide another profit center).

It's a legally-binding contract. Reneging on it would be disastrous for the province's reputation as a place to do business, not to mention the legal fallout would be tremendous when the lawsuits start flying over that.

Reneging on a contract that was negotiated in good faith is an unfathomably terrible idea. Regardless of how much it may favour one side.
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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2016, 01:26:07 PM »

the 407 has high Monthly Transponder fees

The annual transponder lease is $23.50, which breaks down to $1.96 per month. CAA pegs the average annual cost of owning a small sedan at $6,729. If $23.50 is a big deal to you, perhaps car ownership isn't for you.

It is a bit high, when compared to other toll road agencies.  For example, the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) charges a $10 refundable deposit for the I-Pass transponder (aka EZ Pass) plus $20 in preloaded tolls.  There is no monthly or annual fee.  The only fee charged is if you get the transponder at a Jewel-Osco (grocery chain), and they charge $2.90, payable to Jewel-Osco.  That's a one-time fee.  Quite frankly, ISHTA makes so much in tolls that charging anything extra just isn't worth it.

As for you cbeach, you'd like to know how I would raise revenue without creating "revenue tools", for starters, I would wage war with the police unions, just look at how many everyday officers appear on that sunshine list. It's evident that the public sector is experiencing out of control growth in this province, and why should the politicians care, that's simply more votes for Kathleen Wynne's party. The same thing can be said of the teachers unions, which I detest even more, I have extreme hatred for teachers.

You want to raise revenue, I would tax every single sunshiner $10,000, if you did that, you'd have a billion dollars right there to work with.


If you want me to explain better what I was speaking of regarding the Sheppard East LRT/Finch West LRT and rapid transit status, consider this diagram that which the TTC appeared to have released to showcase the new line numbers:



Let us go back in time to 1989, when the TTC introduced the so called "Harbourfront LRT":



As you can see, they were showing off this route as being better than a streetcar, it was "Light Rail Transit", it was numbered Route 604 (for the record, 601, 602, and 603 referred to the other rapid transit lines at the time internally) unlike the other streetcar routes which were 500-series routes. This Harbourfront LRT actually appeared on the map as a rapid transit line like the other 3 from 1990 to at least 1993 (I can't find maps of the '94 and '95 ride guide):



The TTC eventually came to realize that the speed of this line isn't all that great, and so with the Spadina right-of-way streetcar opening sometime in 1997, the combined route was renumbered 510 Spadina.....not to be outdone, an extension of the right of way along the Queen's Quay corridor to the Exhibition Grounds allowed the Harbourfront route to come back....this time as the 509 Harbourfront streetcar.

Basically, the point of this story is, who's to say when Crosstown, Sheppard East, and Finch West LRTs, that the TTC does not realize a similar endgame and decides to rebrand them as 500 series routes. I mean seriously, what is overall different about the right-of-way streetcar routes such as 509 Harbourfront, 510 Spadina, or more recently 512 St Clair, compared to the three future LRT routes I've mentioned? Stops may be further apart, but it's in reality the same thing, we all know the LRT will use a RYG traffic signal like any other right-of-way transit vehicle does.

Through my own riding experiments (on weekends mind you), I have observed that the Spadina streetcar takes approximately 2.5 times longer to complete a similar amount of distance than the University subway....I also estimated that roughly 30% of ride time on the Spadina streetcar is spent stopped at red lights. I was an opponent of Transit City long before Rob Ford came out of the woodwork, because frankly, it sucks. For the amount of money it costs to build a right-of-way, for service which isn't significantly better, or in some cases arguably worse, see Spadina, it's better off to do nothing on those corridors at this point, or better yet, the Crosstown should have been a full blown subway and the other 2 LRT lines should have been ignored.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 10:13:05 PM by Alps »
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cbeach40

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2016, 02:17:39 PM »

Don't mind cbeach40 and his holier than thou attitude. He is the essence of the Ontario government worker, arrogant and snobby.

1. That definitely is not what the OPS is like. In some ways to its benefit, in other ways to its detriment.
2. I'm not being arrogant, I'm just calling out flawed arguments. You're welcome to respond, ideally with thoughts and backed up ideas, not classless ad hominem attacks

As for you cbeach, you'd like to know how I would raise revenue without creating "revenue tools", for starters, I would wage war with the police unions, just look at how many everyday officers appear on that sunshine list. It's evident that the public sector is experiencing out of control growth in this province, and why should the politicians care, that's simply more votes for Kathleen Wynne's party.

It's really not evident. The Ontario Public Service is still much smaller than it was pre-Harris. But hey, the nice thing is that more work's been transferred to independent consultants and contractors. Which has worked so well, just look at winter maintenance.

The same thing can be said of the teachers unions, which I detest even more, I have extreme hatred for teachers.

It's rather apparent they have failed at teaching some, so that may be understandable.


You want to raise revenue, I would tax every single sunshiner $10,000, if you did that, you'd have a billion dollars right there to work with.

Yes, because a great way to encourage retention and attract talent is to cut their pay.

If you want me to explain better what I was speaking of regarding the Sheppard East LRT/Finch West LRT and rapid transit status...

No, this is off-topic and the discussion should be moved to the mass transit section of the forum.
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Alps

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2016, 10:12:33 PM »

No more name calling. Stick to the issues or find yourselves with warnings and bans.

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2016, 12:12:16 AM »

IMO annual/monthly fees for transponders should be illegal.  Interoperability should be mandated and the amount people have to pay the same no matter where their transponder is from.  There should not be minimum usage requirements for a transponder either.  These are basic things that should be part of a "toll road user bill of rights" that needs to be enshrined into law in both the US and Canada.
Based on..? Other than the fact that you don't like it, is there a reason, based in actual legal rationale, for doing that?
Based on my own moral principles based on fairness and absolute equality (basically, don't treat anyone any differently than anyone else except for anything based on how their actions affect you); I'll admit that I tend to take the uncommon stance that the law should bend to such things rather than the other way around.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2017, 09:24:26 PM »

Now oddly enough, Kathleen Wynne says she's not going to allow the tolls to go through....interesting....

https://www.thestar.com/amp/news/queenspark/2017/01/27/kathleen-wynne-stopping-john-torys-plan-for-tolls-on-dvp-gardiner.html
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mrsman

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Re: Tolls coming to Gardiner/DVP
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2017, 08:42:13 PM »

IMO annual/monthly fees for transponders should be illegal.  Interoperability should be mandated and the amount people have to pay the same no matter where their transponder is from.  There should not be minimum usage requirements for a transponder either.  These are basic things that should be part of a "toll road user bill of rights" that needs to be enshrined into law in both the US and Canada.
Based on..? Other than the fact that you don't like it, is there a reason, based in actual legal rationale, for doing that?
Based on my own moral principles based on fairness and absolute equality (basically, don't treat anyone any differently than anyone else except for anything based on how their actions affect you); I'll admit that I tend to take the uncommon stance that the law should bend to such things rather than the other way around.

I agree.  I like to compare the electronic toll to the old school toll booth operator.  Only the people who actually use the tolls should pay the tolls.  The entire cost of the infrastructure for a turnpike, (i.e. capital costs for the road, maintenance, staffing, and administrative costs) were paid by tolls and tolls were only paid by those who actually drove the road and only when they drove.  I don't like the newer toll structures that charge monthly fees for the privilege of having a transponder - the fees should be solely based on usage.
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