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Author Topic: Hurricane Harvey  (Read 5387 times)

Stephane Dumas

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Hurricane Harvey
« on: August 27, 2017, 12:43:30 PM »

I thought to post a thread about Hurricane Harvey who currently hit Houston.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-27/houston-surreal-and-after-photo

Here a video showing the area of Buffalo Bayou
?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fnews%2F2017-08-27%2Fhouston-surreal-and-after-photo
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 08:45:26 AM by Alex »
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sparker

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 03:53:32 PM »

This one seems like it'll be really bad -- my cousin living in Lake Jackson, who can and does usually plow through just about anything -- elected to have her condo boarded up, grab her valuables, and go stay with her oldest daughter in Overland Park, KS for a couple of weeks -- or until whenever the expected Houston-area flood waters subside.  Sent her a map showing options for heading north; she seemed to favor a TX 6/TX 14 routing (local news warns about severe congestion on I-45 north), and heading up US 75/69 through OK, keeping on 69 up to her destination.  Did warn her about the OK speed traps (Stringtown, etc.); she tends to be something of a leadfoot!       
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 04:47:37 PM »

It made landfall as a Category 4 near Port Aransas, which was the first such landfall in the US since Charley in 2004. Now it looks like a major flood disaster for Houston. This is probably going to be the worst hurricane in the US since Ike, and maybe even Katrina.
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2017, 07:31:32 PM »

https://patch.com/texas/sugarland/hurricane-harvey-sinkhole-opens-rosenberg

Update a road has collapsed in the Rosenberg part of Texas. This is one of many roads in Texas that's either flooded or got eroded by Sinkhole.
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2017, 07:43:12 PM »

There are a lot of pictures on Twitter showing flooding up to the level of mast-arm-mounted traffic lights or a foot or two shy of overhead BGSs or the like. Unimaginable how much water that is and how long it will take for it to drain.
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2017, 10:23:12 PM »

I'm not aware of any infrastructure in this country that is built to withstand 40" of rain  :-o
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 12:33:55 AM »

There are a lot of pictures on Twitter showing flooding up to the level of mast-arm-mounted traffic lights or a foot or two shy of overhead BGSs or the like. Unimaginable how much water that is and how long it will take for it to drain.

Now's the perfect time to get those closeup shots of BGSes like you've always wanted. :bigass:
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sparker

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 01:33:03 AM »

There are a lot of pictures on Twitter showing flooding up to the level of mast-arm-mounted traffic lights or a foot or two shy of overhead BGSs or the like. Unimaginable how much water that is and how long it will take for it to drain.

Now's the perfect time to get those closeup shots of BGSes like you've always wanted. :bigass:

First, find a boat that isn't already occupied with the rescue operation................
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GreenLanternCorps

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2017, 08:29:30 AM »

I'm not aware of any infrastructure in this country that is built to withstand 40" of rain  :-o

For comparison, the devastating Great Dayton Flood of 1913 was only 11 inches of rain on saturated ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dayton_Flood

However, Houston and Texas might want to look at the Miami Conservancy district as a possible solution to help with flooding.

https://www.mcdwater.org/flood-protection/retarding-basins-and-levees/

A series of dry dams and basins are designed to hold excess rain water and let it slowly drain away to prevent flooding down river.

Given the massive amount of water in a Hurricane, I'm not sure how mush it will help, but it can't hurt.
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2017, 09:51:26 AM »

It's a really devastating event for the Texas Gulf Coast.
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2017, 10:00:01 AM »

Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2017, 10:34:10 AM »

However, Houston and Texas might want to look at the Miami Conservancy district as a possible solution to help with flooding.

https://www.mcdwater.org/flood-protection/retarding-basins-and-levees/

A series of dry dams and basins are designed to hold excess rain water and let it slowly drain away to prevent flooding down river.

Given the massive amount of water in a Hurricane, I'm not sure how mush it will help, but it can't hurt.

It seems like there are a couple of these upstream of Buffalo Bayou, but the USACE has to release water to keep the levees from over-topping.
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Cody Goodman
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2017, 10:35:30 AM »

Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

On one hand I am surprised that evacuations were not ordered. On the other hand, with the amount of people in Houston, ordering an evacuation with only 12 hours before the storm hits would create a potential humanitarian crisis of its own due to people getting stranded.
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Cody Goodman
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2017, 12:02:54 PM »

Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

An evacuation was not feasible.  There was no particular zone that needed to be cleared, as would be the case in a normal hurricane strike causing storm surge, wind, and rain, and then moving away.  The entire area is affected by this.  Imagine the flooded roads news reports are showing us being shown packed full of cars.  An evacuation would have trapped people the roads, many likely drowning, and there was no chance that it could have been successful in the time given.  Unlike a direct hit from a hurricane, in which people in surge-prone areas could leave and spread in all directions, the entire area population would have to leave, with one of the directions, southeast, being cut off due to the storm being that way.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 12:06:07 PM by wxfree »
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roadman

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2017, 12:09:36 PM »

Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

An evacuation was not feasible.  There was no particular zone that needed to be cleared, as would be the case in a normal hurricane strike causing storm surge, wind, and rain, and then moving away.  The entire area is affected by this.  Imagine the flooded roads news reports are showing us being shown packed full of cars.  An evacuation would have trapped people the roads, many likely drowning, and there was no chance that it could have been successful in the time given.  Unlike a direct hit from a hurricane, in which people in surge-prone areas could leave and spread in all directions, the entire area population would have to leave, with one of the directions, southeast, being cut off due to the storm being that way.
Your point is taken, and I concur with the arguments - especially for an area like Houston.  However, what struck me as odd was the "government shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they should do" tone of the statements some officials were making.  And this was well before the hurricane made initial landfall.
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GreenLanternCorps

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2017, 12:15:35 PM »

However, Houston and Texas might want to look at the Miami Conservancy district as a possible solution to help with flooding.

https://www.mcdwater.org/flood-protection/retarding-basins-and-levees/

A series of dry dams and basins are designed to hold excess rain water and let it slowly drain away to prevent flooding down river.

Given the massive amount of water in a Hurricane, I'm not sure how mush it will help, but it can't hurt.

It seems like there are a couple of these upstream of Buffalo Bayou, but the USACE has to release water to keep the levees from over-topping.

The difference between a dry dam and a levee is the dry dam has no moving parts.  It has a built in release to let water out at a pace that the river downstream can handle.

If  you look at this photo you will see that the dam has holes at the bottom for normal river flow and at the top to prevent over topping the dam.

The combined flow from these outlets is no more than the river can handle, and enough to protect the dam.



https://www.mcdwater.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/FloodProtectionSystem.pdf

 

« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 01:08:31 PM by GreenLanternCorps »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2017, 12:16:58 PM »

Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

An evacuation was not feasible.  There was no particular zone that needed to be cleared, as would be the case in a normal hurricane strike causing storm surge, wind, and rain, and then moving away.  The entire area is affected by this.  Imagine the flooded roads news reports are showing us being shown packed full of cars.  An evacuation would have trapped people the roads, many likely drowning, and there was no chance that it could have been successful in the time given.  Unlike a direct hit from a hurricane, in which people in surge-prone areas could leave and spread in all directions, the entire area population would have to leave, with one of the directions, southeast, being cut off due to the storm being that way.
Your point is taken, and I concur with the arguments - especially for an area like Houston.  However, what struck me as odd was the "government shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they should do" tone of the statements some officials were making.

Over the years, many ordinary citizens in Texas have felt this way to begin with.  I think I read that even in a city (Corpus Christi?) that had a mandatory evacuation, nearly 60% of the people stayed behind.  Those people didn't heed what the government told them to do anyway. 

But as pointed out above, mandatory evacuations have their downfalls as well.  While storms can be predicted what they'll do, what they actually do is another story.  Do you risk telling people to evacuate west?  How far?  What if a storm that was predicted to move north goes west instead?  Now all those people are in danger anyway. 

And, of course, the minute destruction happens, everyone wants the government to help with money...but won't want the government to tell them what to do otherwise!
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2017, 12:26:55 PM »

Just curious about how many people are now stuck because city and county officials failed to issue mandatory evacuations before the storm hit.  On Friday afternoon's news, I heard one official saying "We're not issuing mandatory evacuations because we believe that government shouldn't be forcing people to do things."

An evacuation was not feasible.  There was no particular zone that needed to be cleared, as would be the case in a normal hurricane strike causing storm surge, wind, and rain, and then moving away.  The entire area is affected by this.  Imagine the flooded roads news reports are showing us being shown packed full of cars.  An evacuation would have trapped people the roads, many likely drowning, and there was no chance that it could have been successful in the time given.  Unlike a direct hit from a hurricane, in which people in surge-prone areas could leave and spread in all directions, the entire area population would have to leave, with one of the directions, southeast, being cut off due to the storm being that way.
Your point is taken, and I concur with the arguments - especially for an area like Houston.  However, what struck me as odd was the "government shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they should do" tone of the statements some officials were making.  And this was well before the hurricane made initial landfall.

It is Texas.  There are people who think like that.  It was probably someone trying to score political points by putting that spin on the decision after the decision was made. There are segments of the population it would appeal to.
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sparker

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2017, 12:40:53 PM »

Historically, storms & hurricanes coming in from the Gulf have tended to head straight inland on the path of least resistance -- one of the river valleys (Brazos, Guadalupe, Nueces) and dissipate the farther away from the Gulf they got.  But Harvey's so slow that it's picking up water from the lower river areas and wetlands near the Gulf, and moving sideways as it picks up moisture on one side or the other; hence its original landfall near Rockport followed by a lateral move NE toward Houston, "feeding" itself all the while.  Whereas the "old" (historical) paths were somewhat predictable (going upriver from landfall), allowing evacuation patterns to emanate outward from that path, Harvey has rendered any semblance of predictability unreliable, as it could conceivably go anywhere from its current location; it's not moving fast enough in any particular direction to establish a calculable trajectory.  It also might well stay where it is until it eventually peters out -- it's got plenty of water to feed it with Galveston Bay and its associated branches as well as within the lower Brazos area.  We'll just have to see what happens over the next 5-7 days! 
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2017, 01:11:47 PM »

What turned into Cat4 Harvey on Friday was little more than a disorganized low pressure system that crossed the Yucatan Peninsula mid-week. If ANYBODY had realized on Wednesday that disaster was coming on Friday, that probably still would have been too late to issue more wide-spread mandatory evacuation orders.

I think the most chilling quote I've read was a Freeport official stating that the area is "completely void of functioning infrastructure".
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2017, 01:24:52 PM »

I have been keeping track of the news on Hurricane Harvey since the get-go. The devastation I have seen is horrific (as it always is when a hurricane pays a visit to one's town). It has been 12-13 years since such a hurricane has struck the mainland US. We can only hope the same amount of time will pass before the next one inevitably strikes.
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2017, 02:14:03 PM »

Wasn't there an evacuation in the Houston area several years ago that plugged up I-45 so badly that people were running out of gas from idling in the gridlocked traffic? Then it turned out that the storm never came to Houston? Maybe it was Rita? I can't remember.
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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2017, 02:29:56 PM »

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2017, 02:44:31 PM »

The radar estimates show that basically everywhere inside Beltway 8 has had more than 25 inches of rain, and pretty close to the all of Harris, Galveston, and Chambers Counties, and a significant majority of Liberty County.  The scale stops at 25 inches.  I saw a report on television just a fraction of an inch from 40.  Discussing the truly enormous totals can easily overshadow the scope of still-excessive totals, such as "just" one foot of rain, occurring more than 100 miles inland.

Here's a localized view.  It's easier to see if you turn off the warnings.
https://radar.weather.gov/ridge/radar.php?rid=hgx&product=NTP&overlay=11101101&loop=no

The Brazos River near Bryan has risen about 17 feet since Friday.  That station is upstream from where most of the foot-plus totals are.  The Brazos is a major river that usually floods over a period of weeks or months with repeated heavy rains.  It can handle a lot of water and is nowhere near flood stage at Bryan.  The next station downstream is near Hempstead, and the river has risen about 40 feet since Saturday and is expected to reach moderate flood stage.  Flooding levels that generally takes weeks or months develop in one of the state's largest rivers happened in two days.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 02:55:01 PM by wxfree »
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TravelingBethelite

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Re: Hurricane Harvey
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2017, 02:47:58 PM »

Wasn't there an evacuation in the Houston area several years ago that plugged up I-45 so badly that people were running out of gas from idling in the gridlocked traffic? Then it turned out that the storm never came to Houston? Maybe it was Rita? I can't remember.

Your memory serves you right. The evacuation of which you speak took place in response to Hurricane Rita. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Rita
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