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Author Topic: Amazon HQ2  (Read 25259 times)

abefroman329

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #475 on: February 17, 2019, 09:00:37 AM »

Re: socialism

What are you talking about? “Not being able to do whatever I want, whenever I want” is a perfectly reasonable definition of socialism.
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abefroman329

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #476 on: February 17, 2019, 09:02:38 AM »

You have to pay taxes before you can get a tax break.  A company has to have a gross profit before they can pay taxes on it.
Pardon? Are we still talking Amazon? FYI, they made $11B in 2018 with a total federal profit tax of $0.
Who came up with that "figure"?  Some socialism advocacy group?

https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/13/amazon-zero-federal-income-tax-2019/

Drive-By News Media
If you’re trying to argue that the Daily fucking Caller is a liberal media source, then you’ve officially said goodbye to whatever shred of credibility you had prior to that.
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Beltway

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #477 on: February 17, 2019, 09:14:39 AM »

Otherwise, your attitude to the situation seems really strange..
None of the above.
Then I don't understand you at all.
There are at least 4 people from NYS in this thread, all of us are to a different extent skeptical towards Amazon situation. Possibly, because we saw rise and fall of such great endeavors (Tesla factory being the latest one); possibly because we somewhat know underlying problems in NYS governing.
You seem very excited about handing out money to a corporation - without even knowing details of the deal (such as which tax incentives are provided and how they work). If it is just a general pro-business approach, I suggest you look closer at the details of the situation to make up your mind based on facts, not general concepts. Otherwise.. Well, then I don't know.

The rot from New York City extends far beyond New York state's borders.
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kalvado

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #478 on: February 17, 2019, 09:40:40 AM »

Otherwise, your attitude to the situation seems really strange..
None of the above.
Then I don't understand you at all.
There are at least 4 people from NYS in this thread, all of us are to a different extent skeptical towards Amazon situation. Possibly, because we saw rise and fall of such great endeavors (Tesla factory being the latest one); possibly because we somewhat know underlying problems in NYS governing.
You seem very excited about handing out money to a corporation - without even knowing details of the deal (such as which tax incentives are provided and how they work). If it is just a general pro-business approach, I suggest you look closer at the details of the situation to make up your mind based on facts, not general concepts. Otherwise.. Well, then I don't know.

The rot from New York City extends far beyond New York state's borders.
Easily. And then the question is - what exactly is rot in this case. As you definitely need to diagnose the problem before treatment.
My point is that government subsidisation of private companies - of selected private companies to make it worse - is actually much closer to the issue with socialism (government ownership of assets) than a concept of a level playing field. Because, you know, one of the biggest complains here is that small business cannot get anywhere close to support large companies do. That hurts business environment - and I would argue this is the type of rot which really hurts. There is another extreme of overregulating, especially overregulating for political reasons. Here I am with you, it is a bad idea. But it is exactly opposite to the case we discuss.

It is hard to draw a line between reasonable incentive and overly generous giveaway. At least some people do believe Amazon deal crossed the line.
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Rothman

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #479 on: February 17, 2019, 10:24:28 AM »

Otherwise, your attitude to the situation seems really strange..
None of the above.
Then I don't understand you at all.
There are at least 4 people from NYS in this thread, all of us are to a different extent skeptical towards Amazon situation. Possibly, because we saw rise and fall of such great endeavors (Tesla factory being the latest one); possibly because we somewhat know underlying problems in NYS governing.
You seem very excited about handing out money to a corporation - without even knowing details of the deal (such as which tax incentives are provided and how they work). If it is just a general pro-business approach, I suggest you look closer at the details of the situation to make up your mind based on facts, not general concepts. Otherwise.. Well, then I don't know.

The rot from New York City extends far beyond New York state's borders.
This concept that NYC is rotting doesn't seem well-founded, either.  The City is quite economically healthy.
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kalvado

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #480 on: February 17, 2019, 10:44:50 AM »

This concept that NYC is rotting doesn't seem well-founded, either.  The City is quite economically healthy.
NYC is a huge financial center, sucking out money from the entire country and most of the world. Being quite healthy means things are grossly mismanaged, it should be beyond flourishing.
And given amount of technical debt city accumulated - subway, roads, sewer, water (would you dare to drink tap water in NYC? I wouldn't), public housing - I would rate NYC as close to a failure. Even if currently ends do meet
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Rothman

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #481 on: February 17, 2019, 10:46:34 AM »

Looking around the City, I see more evidence that it is flourishing than deterioration.  MTA is a separate animal, being its own public authority.

And, in terms of its tap water, it is actually perrennially tested to be quite clean.  Probably cleaner than your hometown's.
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kalvado

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #482 on: February 17, 2019, 12:47:25 PM »

Looking around the City, I see more evidence that it is flourishing than deterioration.  MTA is a separate animal, being its own public authority.

And, in terms of its tap water, it is actually perrennially tested to be quite clean.  Probably cleaner than your hometown's.
My drinking water runs through a filter - that was the first thing we added after move in.
And I happened to find out what are the EPA waivers issued to NYC water supply. Yes, very likely it is safe. No, I am not drinking that.
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Beltway

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #483 on: February 17, 2019, 02:09:59 PM »

Then I don't understand you at all.
There are at least 4 people from NYS in this thread, all of us are to a different extent skeptical towards Amazon situation. Possibly, because we saw rise and fall of such great endeavors (Tesla factory being the latest one); possibly because we somewhat know underlying problems in NYS governing.
You seem very excited about handing out money to a corporation - without even knowing details of the deal (such as which tax incentives are provided and how they work). If it is just a general pro-business approach, I suggest you look closer at the details of the situation to make up your mind based on facts, not general concepts. Otherwise.. Well, then I don't know.
The rot from New York City extends far beyond New York state's borders.
Easily. And then the question is - what exactly is rot in this case. As you definitely need to diagnose the problem before treatment.
My point is that government subsidisation of private companies - of selected private companies to make it worse - is actually much closer to the issue with socialism (government ownership of assets) than a concept of a level playing field. Because, you know, one of the biggest complains here is that small business cannot get anywhere close to support large companies do. That hurts business environment - and I would argue this is the type of rot which really hurts. There is another extreme of overregulating, especially overregulating for political reasons. Here I am with you, it is a bad idea. But it is exactly opposite to the case we discuss.
It is hard to draw a line between reasonable incentive and overly generous giveaway. At least some people do believe Amazon deal crossed the line.

New York Mayor Bill de Blasio called Amazon's pullout from their planned Queens headquarters project "astounding," "disappointing," and "disrespectful to the people of New York City."

At the beginning of the month, de Blasio said Amazon should adapt to NYC's progressive culture in bringing a corporate headquarters to the city, and vowed to "hold their feet to the fire" to reap community benefits out of the online giant.

The Amazon announcement late last year promised to bring 25,000 jobs with an average salary of $150,000 a year, situating the hub in Queens. Yet the backroom negotiations and $3 billion in city and state tax subsidies prompted progressive protests and discontent among local residents.

"After much thought and deliberation, we’ve decided not to move forward with our plans to build a headquarters for Amazon in Long Island City, Queens," the online giant announced Thursday. "For Amazon, the commitment to build a new headquarters requires positive, collaborative relationships with state and local elected officials who will be supportive over the long-term. While polls show that 70 percent of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City."

Amazon added that New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and de Blasio "worked tirelessly on behalf of New Yorkers to encourage local investment and job creation, and we can’t speak positively enough about all their efforts."

The company said it doesn't plan to find a replacement city for the onetime New York headquarters, but would move ahead with its previously announced Northern Virginia and Nashville development plans.


https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/de-blasio-blasts-progressives-who-think-its-a-good-idea-to-lose-jobs-disrespectful-amazon-after-pullout/
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Duke87

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #484 on: February 17, 2019, 05:32:24 PM »

My drinking water runs through a filter - that was the first thing we added after move in.
And I happened to find out what are the EPA waivers issued to NYC water supply. Yes, very likely it is safe. No, I am not drinking that.

It may be tempting to interpret the existence of a waiver as the EPA letting NYC get away with having a substandard drinking water system, but this misunderstands the reality.

NYC's drinking water is regularly tested for a whole host of potential contaminants and 90% of it is granted a waiver from the filtration requirement because the tests continually show the water is clean without being filtered.

NYC DEP has gone to great lengths to preserve this by buying as much land as they can upstream from upstate reservoirs and preventing it from being developed, as well as working with owners of developed properties in this area to create measures to filter their runoff. There are for example farmers that had earthen berms built at the edge of their property, entirely at NYC DEP's expense, to filter their runoff which would otherwise contain livestock excrement.


It should also be noted that the Croton system (the oldest and the closest to the city) did, about 15 years ago, start bumping up against the limits for measured contaminant levels. NYC DEP spent billions building a new water filtration plant in Van Cortlandt park to treat this water and remedy that situation.

Amazon pulled out of NYC because their accountants figured out that they could not make money by locating their headquarters there.  Probably because of the unionized labor, certainly because of the taxes, not to mention NYC’s punitive regulatory environment.

Ehhh I don't think any of that has anything to do with it. The basic financials of the move did not change at all between when Amazon announced it and when they cancelled it.

It's really more a matter of, Amazon came to the realization that if they pushed ahead with the NYC move, they were going to face a lot of bad publicity over it for years to come. They don't want to deal with politicians using them as a whipping boy and deliberately trying to make their life difficult. They don't want to deal with a local news media that is likely to be highly critical of them. They don't want to have to deal with having protest after protest staged in front of their offices.

Amazon could have made plenty of money with NYC offices... but they don't want to have to deal with the aggravation of operating somewhere that a lot of people in influential positions don't really want them, especially not when they can just as easily go somewhere else where they'll be welcomed with open arms and not have to deal with all that resistance.

It's the same basic reason why there are no Wal-Marts in New York City - Wal-Mart has made moves a couple times to open their first NYC store, but each time the idea has gotten the same reception Amazon HQ2 did, and Wal-Mart has backed down because they just didn't think it worth the effort of fighting that fight.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 08:29:50 PM by Duke87 »
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vdeane

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #485 on: February 17, 2019, 10:03:03 PM »

...and that system of letting losses being carried forward for up to 20 years is how the system was gamed.  Had there been no such tax laws, there would be no Amazon today.  I would say these kinds of tax laws worked quite well in the case of Amazon.

Rick
I'm sure Amazon would still exist.  They'd probably be more like they were 10-15 years ago, and far less dominant, but that doesn't really strike me as a bad thing.

Neither de Blasio nor AOC show any comprehension of why businesses make decisions.  Businesses do not exist to pay taxes, to employ people, nor even to make products or provide services.  They certainly do not exist in order to “be a good neighbor”.  They exist, and do the previously mentioned things, in order to provide a profit for the owners.  No profit: no employees, no taxes, and certainly no being a good neighbor.

Amazon pulled out of NYC because their accountants figured out that they could not make money by locating their headquarters there.  Probably because of the unionized labor, certainly because of the taxes, not to mention NYC’s punitive regulatory environment.
Businesses existing for the sole purpose of maximizing shareholder value to the exclusion of all else is actually a relatively recent societal change, and one we should undo before the damage is too great (if it isn't already).
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Beltway

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #486 on: February 17, 2019, 10:19:13 PM »

Neither de Blasio nor AOC show any comprehension of why businesses make decisions.  Businesses do not exist to pay taxes, to employ people, nor even to make products or provide services.  They certainly do not exist in order to “be a good neighbor”.  They exist, and do the previously mentioned things, in order to provide a profit for the owners.  No profit: no employees, no taxes, and certainly no being a good neighbor.
Businesses existing for the sole purpose of maximizing shareholder value to the exclusion of all else is actually a relatively recent societal change, and one we should undo before the damage is too great (if it isn't already).

I didn't say that it was for the "sole purpose of maximizing shareholder value to the exclusion of all else".  I said that is why they exist, and that when they are able to successfully do that, then they can do and continue to do these things that benefit general society: pay taxes, employ people, and make products or provide services.
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nexus73

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #487 on: February 18, 2019, 12:01:01 AM »

...and that system of letting losses being carried forward for up to 20 years is how the system was gamed.  Had there been no such tax laws, there would be no Amazon today.  I would say these kinds of tax laws worked quite well in the case of Amazon.

Rick
I'm sure Amazon would still exist.  They'd probably be more like they were 10-15 years ago, and far less dominant, but that doesn't really strike me as a bad thing.

Bezo's strategy was to forego quick profits in exchange for market share.  The result was that a lot of bargains were available for the consumer and a lot of jobs were created that would not have been so numerous if your sentiment about Amazon had come about.

Take note, I am no friend of Bezo's politics.  He is fakestream media personified due to his ownership of WaPo. However I am a person who likes his long term business strategy.  It is ironic that such a supreme capitalist would take the side of the Socialists who enjoy 74% support in the Democratic Party.  That makes it humorous to see him run out of the Big Apple in some part by those Socialists whose cause his paper supported so strongly. 

Then add to that messing around on his wife.  That is going to make for a huge hit to the bank account.  Based on his political and marital choices, it appears he should have stuck to business.  At least he did that well!

Rick
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Scott5114

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Re: Amazon HQ2
« Reply #488 on: February 18, 2019, 02:54:42 AM »

And when we start saying things like "fakestream media" to make our points, that means the thread has gotten too political.
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