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Author Topic: Two Lane Roads That Need Four  (Read 6203 times)

cl94

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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2018, 01:23:56 PM »

Quote from: cl94
US 9, NY 149, and US 4 from I-87 Exit 20 to the Vermont line is one of the most glaring ones in Upstate New York. I have seen long backups in both directions, especially during the summer. It's never gonna happen, as NY 149 can't be widened without an amendment to the state constitution if any of the necessary ROW within Adirondack Park lies on state land.

Staying on the US 4 corridor down to Fort Edward then over to the Northway, or going new alignment and staying in Queensbury and Kingsbury would both solve that problem, but now we're straying into "fictional" territory...

Which is precisely why NYSDOT started nudging people to the US 4 corridor a few years ago. Traffic counts show that isn't working, as GPSes still send people on 149, though Waze will send people on US 4 and NY 197 if traffic is bad.

At the risk of getting fictional here, the Town of Queensbury actually has been trying to push for a partial bypass and widening for several years, with the local MPO's studies supporting it.
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2018, 01:56:47 PM »

US 33 through Hanover County, Va should've been 4 lanes like 20 years ago, at least up to Montpelier.

When VDOT replaced the Huguenot Bridge between western Henrico County and southwestern Richmond a few years back, they should've made it 4 lanes then.. it's still 2 lanes and carries over 26,000 AADT  :banghead:
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2018, 02:52:36 PM »

US 33 through Hanover County, Va should've been 4 lanes like 20 years ago, at least up to Montpelier.
When VDOT replaced the Huguenot Bridge between western Henrico County and southwestern Richmond a few years back, they should've made it 4 lanes then.. it's still 2 lanes and carries over 26,000 AADT  :banghead:

Those US-33 widening projects have been discussed going back at least 25 years.

The Huguenot Bridge replacement was deliberately built with two lanes.  The city wanted traffic growth to be channeled to the higher capacity crossings such as VA-76, VA-150 and VA-288.  River Road and Cary Street are already congested enough and the city opposed widening them.
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 05:23:39 PM »

US 33 through Hanover County, Va should've been 4 lanes like 20 years ago, at least up to Montpelier.
When VDOT replaced the Huguenot Bridge between western Henrico County and southwestern Richmond a few years back, they should've made it 4 lanes then.. it's still 2 lanes and carries over 26,000 AADT  :banghead:

Those US-33 widening projects have been discussed going back at least 25 years.

The Huguenot Bridge replacement was deliberately built with two lanes.  The city wanted traffic growth to be channeled to the higher capacity crossings such as VA-76, VA-150 and VA-288.  River Road and Cary Street are already congested enough and the city opposed widening them.

Yeah I lived in Montpelier from 1990-1992 as a teen and again from 1997-2001. US 33 was pretty bad then (numerous accidents and long lines) and it's only been getting worse. Many of us in that area were trying to get at least 4 lanes undivided, plus a center turn lane in spots but the state didn't seem to budge on the issue. I haven't been up that way in the past couple of years but I remember a few property owners along the road placing signs pleading for the 4-laning
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2018, 12:03:41 AM »

Partial list for the Illinois portion of Chicagoland:

* US 12: End of the four lane section west of Fox Lake to the end of the freeway in Wisconsin
* US 20: West end of the Elgin Bypass to at least Plank Road.
* IL 31:  Fill in the gaps between IL 72 and IL 120
* US 45: End of the four lane near Washington Street to at least IL 173.  Also the diagonal section between IL 83 and IL 21
* IL 47:  End of the four lanes at the north side of Huntley to Charles Road on the north side of Woodstock.  Also the end of the four lane section north of Yorkville to IL 56
* IL 58:  End of the four lanes at Barrington Road to at least IL 59.
* IL 59:  End of the four lanes north of IL 72 to at least US 14 in Barrington, if not US 12
* IL 60/IL 83:  The whole joint stretch
* IL 62:  Fill the gap from IL 25 to IL 68
* IL 83:  South of IL 132 to IL 137
* IL 120:  Probably all of it in Lake County, but at the least fill the gap between US 45 and the end of the four lane west of Hunt Club Road
* IL 131:  At least IL 173 to the Wisconsin border
* IL 173:  IL 59 to at least I-94, if not all the way to IL 131
* Barrington Road:  Fill the gap from Mudhank Road to IL 62
* Palatine Road:  Between IL 62 and US 14

Yeah, there's a lot to list.  I'm going to add some from the Chicago Southland:
-US 30: all remaining segments east of IL 47 (including the overlap), especially between Briggs and I-80, and the segment from Plainfield to Oswego.
-IL 7:  Entire route.  Some is being done right now, but the Lockport bridge really needs an expansion next.
-IL 83:  Cal-Sag portion.
-Laraway Road:  Harlem to IL 53.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2018, 01:55:03 AM »

Partial list for the Illinois portion of Chicagoland:

* US 12: End of the four lane section west of Fox Lake to the end of the freeway in Wisconsin
* US 20: West end of the Elgin Bypass to at least Plank Road.
* IL 31:  Fill in the gaps between IL 72 and IL 120
* US 45: End of the four lane near Washington Street to at least IL 173.  Also the diagonal section between IL 83 and IL 21
* IL 47:  End of the four lanes at the north side of Huntley to Charles Road on the north side of Woodstock.  Also the end of the four lane section north of Yorkville to IL 56
* IL 58:  End of the four lanes at Barrington Road to at least IL 59.
* IL 59:  End of the four lanes north of IL 72 to at least US 14 in Barrington, if not US 12
* IL 60/IL 83:  The whole joint stretch
* IL 62:  Fill the gap from IL 25 to IL 68
* IL 83:  South of IL 132 to IL 137
* IL 120:  Probably all of it in Lake County, but at the least fill the gap between US 45 and the end of the four lane west of Hunt Club Road
* IL 131:  At least IL 173 to the Wisconsin border
* IL 173:  IL 59 to at least I-94, if not all the way to IL 131
* Barrington Road:  Fill the gap from Mudhank Road to IL 62
* Palatine Road:  Between IL 62 and US 14

Yeah, there's a lot to list.  I'm going to add some from the Chicago Southland:
-US 30: all remaining segments east of IL 47 (including the overlap), especially between Briggs and I-80, and the segment from Plainfield to Oswego.
-IL 7:  Entire route.  Some is being done right now, but the Lockport bridge really needs an expansion next.
-IL 83:  Cal-Sag portion.
-Laraway Road:  Harlem to IL 53.

I'd add -
All the gaps in the WiKaDuKe Route from US 6 in Minooka to the 4-lane section of Eola Road. There are some portions of 4-lane in Minooka and Joliet, but the route would function a lot better if the gaps and discontinuities were addressed.
IL 71 from IL 47 in Yorkville to Orchard Road in Oswego
US 6 from the 4-lane section in Channahon to Ridge Road in Minooka
US 6 in Morris from IL 47 to Saratoga Road
I'd also fill in the gap on IL 47 from Caton Farm Road south of Yorkville to IL 71 in Yorkville, but only after the Yorkville to Sugar Grove portion was completed. (the section to the south is currently under construction to 4-lane from Morris north of I-80 to Caton Farm).
At some point, IL 31 and US 34 between Orchard Road in Oswego and BNSF overhead in Montgomery should be expanded; it was under study in the 90s and the idea abandoned in the hope that the new 4-lane Orchard Road would relieve it. It did a little bit, but there is still a good bit of traffic on the section. enough to warrant 4 lanes.
Peotone Wilmington Road, if the Illiana Expressway is not built.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:58:29 AM by Rick Powell »
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2018, 09:29:29 AM »

Quote from: cl94
US 9, NY 149, and US 4 from I-87 Exit 20 to the Vermont line is one of the most glaring ones in Upstate New York. I have seen long backups in both directions, especially during the summer. It's never gonna happen, as NY 149 can't be widened without an amendment to the state constitution if any of the necessary ROW within Adirondack Park lies on state land.

Staying on the US 4 corridor down to Fort Edward then over to the Northway, or going new alignment and staying in Queensbury and Kingsbury would both solve that problem, but now we're straying into "fictional" territory...
If only NY 149 ran a couple of miles further to the south (according to my road atlas, part of NY 149 skirts the Adirondack Park)
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Super Mateo

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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2018, 09:51:32 AM »

I'd add -
All the gaps in the WiKaDuKe Route from US 6 in Minooka to the 4-lane section of Eola Road. There are some portions of 4-lane in Minooka and Joliet, but the route would function a lot better if the gaps and discontinuities were addressed.
IL 71 from IL 47 in Yorkville to Orchard Road in Oswego
US 6 from the 4-lane section in Channahon to Ridge Road in Minooka
US 6 in Morris from IL 47 to Saratoga Road
I'd also fill in the gap on IL 47 from Caton Farm Road south of Yorkville to IL 71 in Yorkville, but only after the Yorkville to Sugar Grove portion was completed. (the section to the south is currently under construction to 4-lane from Morris north of I-80 to Caton Farm).
At some point, IL 31 and US 34 between Orchard Road in Oswego and BNSF overhead in Montgomery should be expanded; it was under study in the 90s and the idea abandoned in the hope that the new 4-lane Orchard Road would relieve it. It did a little bit, but there is still a good bit of traffic on the section. enough to warrant 4 lanes.
Peotone Wilmington Road, if the Illiana Expressway is not built.

I forgot about US 6...the Wolf Road portion of it is getting more traffic, too.  It might be worth it to 4-lane all remaining segments east of Morris.

Moving over to NW IL, US 20 can be a huge drag from Freeport to Galena.  Four lanes would be nice, although the terrain would be tough to work with.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:56:02 AM by Super Mateo »
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2018, 10:12:02 AM »

US 33 through Hanover County, Va should've been 4 lanes like 20 years ago, at least up to Montpelier.
When VDOT replaced the Huguenot Bridge between western Henrico County and southwestern Richmond a few years back, they should've made it 4 lanes then.. it's still 2 lanes and carries over 26,000 AADT  :banghead:

Those US-33 widening projects have been discussed going back at least 25 years.

The Huguenot Bridge replacement was deliberately built with two lanes.  The city wanted traffic growth to be channeled to the higher capacity crossings such as VA-76, VA-150 and VA-288.  River Road and Cary Street are already congested enough and the city opposed widening them.

Of course it doesn't help that it's more or less impossible to widen River Road and Cary Street Road anyway since there isn't a whole lot of ROW, and the people living along that stretch have more than enough $$$ to influence any decision the city would make.

IIRC the new Huguenot Bridge was also built with pedestrians and cyclists in mind since the old bridge saw a good deal of pedestrian traffic.
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Beltway

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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2018, 10:56:03 AM »

US 33 through Hanover County, Va should've been 4 lanes like 20 years ago, at least up to Montpelier.
When VDOT replaced the Huguenot Bridge between western Henrico County and southwestern Richmond a few years back, they should've made it 4 lanes then.. it's still 2 lanes and carries over 26,000 AADT  :banghead:
Those US-33 widening projects have been discussed going back at least 25 years.
The Huguenot Bridge replacement was deliberately built with two lanes.  The city wanted traffic growth to be channeled to the higher capacity crossings such as VA-76, VA-150 and VA-288.  River Road and Cary Street are already congested enough and the city opposed widening them.
Of course it doesn't help that it's more or less impossible to widen River Road and Cary Street Road anyway since there isn't a whole lot of ROW, and the people living along that stretch have more than enough $$$ to influence any decision the city would make.
IIRC the new Huguenot Bridge was also built with pedestrians and cyclists in mind since the old bridge saw a good deal of pedestrian traffic.

They could be physically widened but as you say expensive right-of-way and large expensive homes.  Henrico County actually did study a 4-lane widening project on their portion of River Road, about 25 years ago, but it didn't go forward due to local opposition.

There are enough connecting roads on both sides to support a 4-lane Huguenot Bridge, there is a 4-lane arterial to the south and a short section of 4-lane road on the north that splits into two separate 2-lane roads.  But that 26,000 AADT would then grow to 40,000-42,000 and would lead to even more congestion to the north if at least one of those roads wasn't 4-laned. 

I use the bridge several times per week and the average number of pedestrians and bicyclists on the bridge at any one time is probably 1.0 or less.  I walked the new bridge once and biked it once, it has a great view of the river but it is very noisy with all the high speed traffic (45 mph limit), so that is likely why even with UR nearby very few pedestrians and bicyclists use the bridge.  The shoulders are 10 feet wide and the sidewalks are 5 feet wide, so there is plenty of space for pedestrians and bicyclists.  I felt safe enough but it was a very noisy experience.

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« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:16:36 AM by Beltway »
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2018, 03:11:56 PM »

Francona Notch Parkway. Old man of the mountain is gone. Upgrade it.
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2018, 05:27:45 PM »

How about in PA, US 30 from Lancaster to the Coatesville & Downingtown Bypass the road there at two lanes (3 if you count the turn lane) is very congested.

Yes, I am aware of the freeway that can't be built linking the Lancaster- York freeway to the Coatesville- Downingtown one due to local opposition, but still it does not change the situation whether NIMBYs cry or not.  Even that new WB alignment at PA 41 where there is now going to be a pair of one way streets is only a short fix for a couple of miles.
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2018, 08:03:08 PM »

Francona Notch Parkway. Old man of the mountain is gone. Upgrade it.

You just don't know, do you...

Just because the Old Man of the Mountain is gone doesn't mean that suddenly there are no more impediments to that segment.  Furthermore, even on summer weekends, the problem through that section is *NOT* it being single-lane.
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2018, 08:07:31 PM »

^ For those of us unfamiliar with the area, what is the problem?
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cl94

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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2018, 08:09:02 PM »

Francona Notch Parkway. Old man of the mountain is gone. Upgrade it.

You just don't know, do you...

Just because the Old Man of the Mountain is gone doesn't mean that suddenly there are no more impediments to that segment.  Furthermore, even on summer weekends, the problem through that section is *NOT* it being single-lane.

Agree completely. There's this little thing called "Section 4F" that makes it damn near impossible to build anything through parkland. Unless the ROW is wide enough for 4 lanes (it often isn't), you need to take parkland. And the big issue in that area is trailhead parking. Not enough parking, so you get people parking on the shoulder.
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2018, 08:10:17 PM »

US-51 end of freeway to Woodruff.
WI-50 remaining 2 lane portion from Williams Bay to Delavan
WI-181 From WI-167 to WI-60
WI-167 the gap between the two four lane sections
WI-100 the gap between Drexel Ave and WI-36
WI-83 US 18 to WI-16 ( What made no sense to me is sections with less traffic to the south were 4 laned but farther to the north sections with more traffic were not).
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2018, 05:23:13 AM »

In Wisconsin, I would also nominate:

US 14 from Middleton to Spring Green or Gotham. 
US 14 from Oregon to Evansville
US 51/STH 138/possibly County Trunk N (one of these) between Stoughton and Madison
STH 26 Waupun to Oshkosh
STH 42/57 Sturgeon Bay bypass north of the bridge
US 12 Elkhorn to Whitewater
US 12/18 from County Trunk N to Cambridge (future)
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2018, 08:05:47 AM »

Speaking of Wisconsin what's the traffic count on US 2 coming from the Michigan state line?   Sure seemed like US 2 ought to be four lanes west of US 51.

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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2018, 10:45:55 AM »

I think I just found one of the other threads where we discussed this:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=772.0

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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2018, 02:14:14 PM »

Would a three lane road (one lane each way + center turn lane) count?
MO 76 is begging to be a 5 lane. Traffic is terrible on the stretch close to Silver Dollar City.

If you think it needs five, then sure, I don't see why not.



Note: I have added some examples in my own area to the OP.

MO-76 in Branson then...

The stretches of two/three lane are horrible at peak. (Think hour long delays.) On the Highest AADT for a two lane, it has a AADT of 20k.
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cl94

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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2018, 05:18:57 PM »

Are we counting three lane roads with a center turn lane as 2 lanes? Because if that's the case, long sections of both US 11 and US 30 in Pennsylvania. They are both painful.

How about in PA, US 30 from Lancaster to the Coatesville & Downingtown Bypass the road there at two lanes (3 if you count the turn lane) is very congested.

In PA, you can pass anywhere unless there are signs prohibiting it. ALL of the long center turn lane sections are signed as "do not pass". All of these could be partially fixed at no cost beyond paint and new signs by having the center lane alternate every couple miles to allow for passing. Much of 11 does not have the traffic counts to support a continuous 4 lanes, but it has enough truck traffic to make the inability to pass very annoying.
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2018, 09:45:42 PM »

Are we counting three lane roads with a center turn lane as 2 lanes?
I want to say we are but its up to the OP.
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2018, 10:24:24 PM »

Partial list for the Illinois portion of Chicagoland:

* US 12: End of the four lane section west of Fox Lake to the end of the freeway in Wisconsin
* US 20: West end of the Elgin Bypass to at least Plank Road.
* IL 31:  Fill in the gaps between IL 72 and IL 120
* US 45: End of the four lane near Washington Street to at least IL 173.  Also the diagonal section between IL 83 and IL 21
* IL 47:  End of the four lanes at the north side of Huntley to Charles Road on the north side of Woodstock.  Also the end of the four lane section north of Yorkville to IL 56
* IL 58:  End of the four lanes at Barrington Road to at least IL 59.
* IL 59:  End of the four lanes north of IL 72 to at least US 14 in Barrington, if not US 12
* IL 60/IL 83:  The whole joint stretch
* IL 62:  Fill the gap from IL 25 to IL 68
* IL 83:  South of IL 132 to IL 137
* IL 120:  Probably all of it in Lake County, but at the least fill the gap between US 45 and the end of the four lane west of Hunt Club Road
* IL 131:  At least IL 173 to the Wisconsin border
* IL 173:  IL 59 to at least I-94, if not all the way to IL 131
* Barrington Road:  Fill the gap from Mudhank Road to IL 62
* Palatine Road:  Between IL 62 and US 14

Yeah, there's a lot to list.  I'm going to add some from the Chicago Southland:
-US 30: all remaining segments east of IL 47 (including the overlap), especially between Briggs and I-80, and the segment from Plainfield to Oswego.
-IL 7:  Entire route.  Some is being done right now, but the Lockport bridge really needs an expansion next.
-IL 83:  Cal-Sag portion.
-Laraway Road:  Harlem to IL 53.

I'd add -
All the gaps in the WiKaDuKe Route from US 6 in Minooka to the 4-lane section of Eola Road. There are some portions of 4-lane in Minooka and Joliet, but the route would function a lot better if the gaps and discontinuities were addressed.
IL 71 from IL 47 in Yorkville to Orchard Road in Oswego
US 6 from the 4-lane section in Channahon to Ridge Road in Minooka
US 6 in Morris from IL 47 to Saratoga Road
I'd also fill in the gap on IL 47 from Caton Farm Road south of Yorkville to IL 71 in Yorkville, but only after the Yorkville to Sugar Grove portion was completed. (the section to the south is currently under construction to 4-lane from Morris north of I-80 to Caton Farm).
At some point, IL 31 and US 34 between Orchard Road in Oswego and BNSF overhead in Montgomery should be expanded; it was under study in the 90s and the idea abandoned in the hope that the new 4-lane Orchard Road would relieve it. It did a little bit, but there is still a good bit of traffic on the section. enough to warrant 4 lanes.
Peotone Wilmington Road, if the Illiana Expressway is not built.

This very small gap on wolf road

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1149347,-87.9076263,401m/data=!3m1!1e3
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Re: Two Lane Roads That Need Four
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2018, 12:52:24 AM »

DE-9 directly connects Wilmington to the beaches, but is a two-lane rural road for almost its entire length.  Upgrading it to a highway south of Newcastle would definitely help take some strain off US-13, which can get clogged with shunpikers at certain times of the day.
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