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Author Topic: DST (2018)  (Read 55359 times)

MikeTheActuary

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2018, 02:01:49 PM »

I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

You'd think it'd be simpler to just shift your hours earlier to make this possible, rather than requiring everyone to change their clocks.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2018, 02:06:42 PM »

I live in the Central Time Zone part of Indiana (SW).  I used to think that they were crazy trying to go to eastern time, but the older I get, the more I like to have the sun set later.  I was glad to see the DST extended to early Nov and early March.  I despise the sun setting at 4:30 in December.  Don't mind getting up and starting work in the dark, but I had finishing it in the dark.  Also appear to have that light sensitivity that I get grumpy when with lesser sunlight.  (Perhaps I need to move further south)
I've found that I'm going the opposite: the older I get, the more I prefer morning daylight.  This is probably because my circadian rhythm is naturally that of a night owl, and unlike college, the working world does not afford me the luxury of sleeping according to my natural cycle (or anything remotely resembling it; if I had my way, I'd sleep 2 or 3-11; instead, I'm forced to try to make 10 or 11-6 work).  Having it dark when I'm getting ready only makes me slower and more groggy than I already would by by virtue of the hour being before noon.  Around here, the latest sunrise is around 7:30, which means my entire commute would be before sunrise if we adopted permanent DST.  I can only imagine how much worst it is in the more western parts of the time zone (even the 15 minute offset between Albany and Rochester throws me sometimes when I travel).
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1995hoo

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2018, 03:07:43 PM »

Another stupid European idea.

I myself am glad that DST starts earlier, but really wish it would be extended year-round. It really stinks to leave work and it be dark. I prefer my daylight in the evenings, thank you very much.

My problem with year-round DST is that it would be dark in both the morning and the evening, at least here in the DC area. On the winter solstice this year, sunrise here will be at 7:23 and sunset at 16:49. So itís mostly dark when you get up and it gets light during the commute. Itís dark when you leave work. Push those times an hour later and itís still dark when you get up, itís darker during the morning commute, itís pretty dark when you leave work and it gets dark during the evening commute, and itís dark by the time you get home. I donít see the benefit. Itís already hard enough to get up in the morning during the winter without making it darker.
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jakeroot

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2018, 03:29:49 PM »

I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

You'd think it'd be simpler to just shift your hours earlier to make this possible, rather than requiring everyone to change their clocks.

But how many people are in the same situation? Really, the whole point of DST was to make light levels more appropriate for certain times of year.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2018, 03:31:22 PM »

I'm not opposed to staying on the same time the entire year, but speaking for a country on a latitude ike Netherlands and Germany, moving permanently into summer time would be more beneficial than staying in winter time all year.
The Netherlands is already on year-round DST, with double DST in the Summer. OK, it's near the eastern edge of WET and was +00:20 before the invasion, so its not as extreme as France's change and definitely not Spain's.

What is odd is how, when Spain overthrew Franco, they then took about 20 years to go "why are we still on Berlin time which we only did out of our leader's solidarity with the Nazi cause? Do we want to stay on CET or move to WET?". Of course, they didn't particularly shift their days, just the numbers on the clock - so if they got up at 6am before the change, they got up at 7am instead - thus they didn't really start pretending to be an hour (or more) west of where they are in their lifestyles until they started having to get up an hour earlier so that their office hours in Barcelona are the same as those of offices in Brussels and Bonn.

As for northerly latitudes, when the UK Parliament last discussed the idea of moving to CET, Scotland demanded an exemption from even trialling it, and one MP demanded Somerset would be moved back to GMT -00:15, as it was pre-railway (though the latter was a motion to tank the bill). When the UK trialled CET ('Double Summer Time') in the 70s, MPs from Ipswich (about as close as one can get to Amsterdam in the UK) were as vocal about not continuing it as those from Inverness. It was overwhelmingly opposed continuing the trial - none of the promised energy and leisure/tourism benefits came about in a tangible way and more statistically significant (but still not definitive either way) were the rise in vehicle accidents, depression cases and suicides.
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The longer daylight in the evening allows for many outdoor activities after dinner.
<snip>
I think it would also seriously impact late summer vacations in September if it would be dark by 7 p.m. Many people who do not have school-aged children go on vacation in the late summer / low season in the first half of September. I usually go on vacation during that time and the early darkness and chilly temperatures after sunset are already inhibiting activities in the evening, not to mention if it would be shortened by another hour.
7pm or 8pm doesn't make much difference - there's no light left after dinner (especially on vacation where you aren't just wolfing down stuff for sustenance) either way! If you want to do something after dinner, eat with the old people at 5! Or just do that something before it gets dark and eat afterwards! Or just vacation the other side of the school holidays - in June, not September...

And 'dark by 7' in early September is a reason to not drop DST, but definitely not a reason to move to St Petersburg time.
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kalvado

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2018, 03:59:01 PM »

Another stupid European idea.

I myself am glad that DST starts earlier, but really wish it would be extended year-round. It really stinks to leave work and it be dark. I prefer my daylight in the evenings, thank you very much.

My problem with year-round DST is that it would be dark in both the morning and the evening, at least here in the DC area. On the winter solstice this year, sunrise here will be at 7:23 and sunset at 16:49. So itís mostly dark when you get up and it gets light during the commute. Itís dark when you leave work. Push those times an hour later and itís still dark when you get up, itís darker during the morning commute, itís pretty dark when you leave work and it gets dark during the evening commute, and itís dark by the time you get home. I donít see the benefit. Itís already hard enough to get up in the morning during the winter without making it darker.
Since  local sunrise and sunset vary by an hour within the time zone, it is pretty safe to assume that for anyone saying "I want have sun during commute/when I wake up/leave work" there will be someone who would answer "I already have (one of other conditions), and I don't want to loose it!"
And things get worse as you move north...
So it is pretty difficult to find solution which would fit everyone, DST or not...
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kkt

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2018, 04:04:34 PM »

I like DST in the summer and standard time in the winter.  It puts the extra light in the summer in the evening when there are more interesting things to do with it.  However, I wish the US shifted to and from DST at the same time the EU does, both because they're more reasonable dates and for the simplicity of the time difference being the same year-round.
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2018, 04:08:31 PM »

I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

You'd think it'd be simpler to just shift your hours earlier to make this possible, rather than requiring everyone to change their clocks.

But how many people are in the same situation? Really, the whole point of DST was to make light levels more appropriate for certain times of year.

I think of it more in terms of: we've rescheduled sunrise and sunset to correspond to some notion of when on the clock certain things should occur. 

Once upon a time, when lighting was a major part of our energy consumption, this had the advantage of conservation.  However, now that we have more electronic gizmos which remain on continuously, the advantage is lost.

Modern society is not as wedded to the notion of "9 to 5" business hours as we once were, for various reasons. Various schemes like staggered start/stop hours, flex time, and telework are all being promoted partly for work-life balance, and partly for energy conservation and to address capacity constraints of urban infrastructure. 

So, if there's a desire to have an extra hour of daylight at the end of the day, perhaps it would be less disruptive for the folks with such a desire to simply get up and go to work an hour earlier, to achieve the same result.  Similarly, for those who complain about the possibility of students walking to school in the dark in the mornings, perhaps local school start times should be shifted to account for that consideration.
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1995hoo

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2018, 04:16:26 PM »

How realistic is the ďgo to work at a different timeĒ option for most people, though? Many white-collar office workers may be able to do that, though many of them also arenít limited to a 40-hour work week and might wind up going in earlier but not leaving much earlier. But many blue-collar or retail workers have no control over their work hours short of changing jobs (often easier said than done).
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
óOlaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
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"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"óKolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

MikeTheActuary

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2018, 04:26:20 PM »

How realistic is the ďgo to work at a different timeĒ option for most people, though? Many white-collar office workers may be able to do that, though many of them also arenít limited to a 40-hour work week and might wind up going in earlier but not leaving much earlier. But many blue-collar or retail workers have no control over their work hours short of changing jobs (often easier said than done).

If there's enough demand for working hours to be altered, they will be altered.  Especially during periods of time (such as now) when there's more demand for labor than not.  It may be the case that the working hours would be altered for "everybody" at the company, rather than the randomness that can be sometimes tolerated in white collar environments, but the net effect would be the same.

Also, don't most retail workers today already have somewhat irregular hours?  I'd think that the only large group of workers who are probably stuck are workers at 3-shift factories (not many of those these days) and farm workers (who tend to work on solar time regardless of whether DST is or isn't in effect).
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kkt

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2018, 04:37:21 PM »

A lot of retail workers are expected to show up at opening time, not an hour early and certainly not an hour later.
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2018, 05:18:04 PM »

Living in a relatively northern area of the country myself, I'm interested in how many others here ever have to commute in the dark, and when?

Here, a standard 8-to-5 job would involve the following commutes in the dark:
Morning: mid to late October (until DST ends), and again mid December to late January, and again very briefly in March when DST starts
Afternoon: beginning of DST in November, until mid January

Once February hits, there's enough light at both ends of the day to encompass all the peak hours.
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1995hoo

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2018, 05:42:59 PM »

My afternoon at this particular time of year begins with the sun still up (5:30), but itís dark by the time I get home (and indeed by the time the subway emerges from the tunnel at the airport about halfway home).

(Looking outside now, itís not pitch black, but itís dark at 6:00.)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 06:00:33 PM by 1995hoo »
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
óOlaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"óKolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

MikeTheActuary

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2018, 06:16:03 PM »

Living in a relatively northern area of the country myself, I'm interested in how many others here ever have to commute in the dark, and when?

Here, a standard 8-to-5 job would involve the following commutes in the dark:
Morning: mid to late October (until DST ends), and again mid December to late January, and again very briefly in March when DST starts
Afternoon: beginning of DST in November, until mid January

Once February hits, there's enough light at both ends of the day to encompass all the peak hours.

Most days my commute is about 5 feet.  Whether I do it in the dark or not depends on when I get up, and whether I bother to turn on the light to cross the room.  :D

Once a month, my commute is roughly 5 hours long (depending on traffic queues at the border and bridge traffic).  Some night driving is generally involved.

I'll concede that my arrangement is not normal.  :)
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Scott5114

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2018, 01:57:25 PM »

Why don't we just cancel the dark?
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2018, 02:04:19 PM »

Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If it's constantly light, the temperature will be significantly higher than it is now.
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Scott5114

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2018, 02:30:52 PM »

Then the obvious solution is to cancel time instead.
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CNGL-Leudimin

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2018, 03:45:17 PM »

Now with all the technology avalaible I'd just cancel time zones and stick to local mean time. UTC would be retained for synchronizing purposes.
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kalvado

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2018, 04:29:08 PM »

Now with all the technology avalaible I'd just cancel time zones and stick to local mean time. UTC would be retained for synchronizing purposes.
no way. synchronizing simple business interactions - like meeting (and long distance conference call!) times, appointments etc. It is already bad the way it is.
If anything, same time across the  globe may be an easier one. Would you actually care that you have to get to work at 2 AM (2.00), if sun goes up at 11.30 PM (23.30)? scheduling dates may be an issue.
Once upon a time I've seen someone show up for 00.10 departure - only to find out that their ticket was for 00.10 the day before... Yep, date starts at midnight....
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2018, 05:47:05 PM »

Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If you migrated between the North and South poles, you could do it for about half the year. The other half would be interesting. Perhaps you could keep taking flights to the west and it would work for a while.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2018, 05:50:05 PM »

Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If you migrated between the North and South poles, you could do it for about half the year. The other half would be interesting. Perhaps you could keep taking flights to the west and it would work for a while.

Actually, you get half just by staying at one pole. If you migrate between them, it will be light the entire time except when traveling from one to the other.
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2018, 05:59:38 PM »

^ Do you mean there is never a day at the poles that has both light and darkness?  :hmmm:
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2018, 06:03:09 PM »

^ Do you mean there is never a day at the poles that has both light and darkness?  :hmmm:

It's light for six months, then dark for six months, then repeat.

Near the boundaries of light/darkness, the Sun will be circling on the horizon for a few days, meaning it will be mostly but not completely light (the same way that it is mostly light just as the Sun is rising or setting where you are).
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2018, 06:11:26 PM »

^ Do you mean there is never a day at the poles that has both light and darkness?  :hmmm:

It's light for six months, then dark for six months, then repeat.

Near the boundaries of light/darkness, the Sun will be circling on the horizon for a few days, meaning it will be mostly but not completely light (the same way that it is mostly light just as the Sun is rising or setting where you are).

I did a Google search in the interim and realized exactly that. That's extremely awesome, and I can't believe I didn't know that. That's good news for Scott5114, as long as he's OK with the cold, and a bit of darkness while he's in transit  :-D
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Scott5114

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 02:10:08 AM »

I do think canceling time would be quite a bit easier. That way my work schedule could be "when I damn well feel like showing up" to "when I'm sick of being here".
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