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Author Topic: DST (2018)  (Read 43395 times)

CNGL-Leudimin

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2018, 09:22:44 AM »

Well, then we should cancel space as well. With no universe left, we could explode a new big bang and model that new universe to our likenesses.
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2018, 12:06:49 PM »

I do think canceling time would be quite a bit easier. That way my work schedule could be "when I damn well feel like showing up" to "when I'm sick of being here".

In some cases, that translates to "never"  :D
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2018, 03:14:01 PM »

I like DST in the summer and standard time in the winter.  It puts the extra light in the summer in the evening when there are more interesting things to do with it.  However, I wish the US shifted to and from DST at the same time the EU does, both because they're more reasonable dates and for the simplicity of the time difference being the same year-round.

I agree with every word you just said. I really like DST. Going to standard time year round would suck here. Going to summer time year round is not realistic for multiple reasons. DST is the best compromise. But I do think the somewhat recently expanded DST dates in the US take it too far, it was a bit more sensible before.

SectorZ

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2018, 04:02:32 PM »

Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If it's constantly light, the temperature will be significantly higher than it is now.

Yup, Antarctica and the Arctic become quite tropical in their summers.
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kalvado

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2018, 04:12:07 PM »

Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If it's constantly light, the temperature will be significantly higher than it is now.

Yup, Antarctica and the Arctic become quite tropical in their summers.
Sun is quite low above horizon, 23 degrees if I remember correctly. So irradiation in not very high...
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Pete from Boston

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2018, 05:08:28 PM »

I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

And I want more light in the morning so I can start my work safely.

The problem with the daylight savings time conversation is, it always comes down to a stalemate between people who have one dislike and people with another.  If we all just realized there's no solution to please everybody, we could skip a lot of this.
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2018, 08:17:08 PM »

I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

And I want more light in the morning so I can start my work safely.

The problem with the daylight savings time conversation is, it always comes down to a stalemate between people who have one dislike and people with another.  If we all just realized there's no solution to please everybody, we could skip a lot of this.

We might as well do what pleases the most people possible. Many people prefer the extra hour of light in the evening - it goes without saying that there's a lot more activity after standard working hours than before.

Also, the variation between time zones can be well over an hour - in Indianapolis they could go off of DST and still have a later sunset than Boston. If the time zones were actually lined up properly, it would solve a number of the issues, including Indiana.
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Pete from Boston

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2018, 11:01:56 PM »

I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

And I want more light in the morning so I can start my work safely.

The problem with the daylight savings time conversation is, it always comes down to a stalemate between people who have one dislike and people with another.  If we all just realized there's no solution to please everybody, we could skip a lot of this.

We might as well do what pleases the most people possible. Many people prefer the extra hour of light in the evening - it goes without saying that there's a lot more activity after standard working hours than before.

Also, the variation between time zones can be well over an hour - in Indianapolis they could go off of DST and still have a later sunset than Boston. If the time zones were actually lined up properly, it would solve a number of the issues, including Indiana.

Then we need to have a national poll on what people want, I guess.  Except that nobody believes polls anymore.

People in the east will lose it if you try to make their sunrise 8:30 a.m., no matter what they say now.  If you think people don't like getting home in the dark, wait until the majority gets to join those of us that go to work in the dark.  The behavior and skill of half-awake motorists in the daylight is abysmal enough.

Less trouble arises out of leaving this alone than attempting to fix it. After decades of watching this conversation play out that is the one thing I feel fairly certain about it.
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2018, 08:25:17 AM »

People in the east will lose it if you try to make their sunrise 8:30 a.m., no matter what they say now.  If you think people don't like getting home in the dark, wait until the majority gets to join those of us that go to work in the dark.  The behavior and skill of half-awake motorists in the daylight is abysmal enough.

Less trouble arises out of leaving this alone than attempting to fix it. After decades of watching this conversation play out that is the one thing I feel fairly certain about it.

If you live in the eastern part of a time zone and still travel to work in the dark, that is far from an average case.

I don't disagree that attempting a fix would be complicated, I'm just saying it is possible to please a larger portion of the population - by aligning the time zones properly and having a year-round time that is halfway between DST and standard time.
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Pete from Boston

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DST (2018)
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 08:51:00 AM »

People in the east will lose it if you try to make their sunrise 8:30 a.m., no matter what they say now.  If you think people don't like getting home in the dark, wait until the majority gets to join those of us that go to work in the dark.  The behavior and skill of half-awake motorists in the daylight is abysmal enough.

Less trouble arises out of leaving this alone than attempting to fix it. After decades of watching this conversation play out that is the one thing I feel fairly certain about it.

If you live in the eastern part of a time zone and still travel to work in the dark, that is far from an average case.

I don't disagree that attempting a fix would be complicated, I'm just saying it is possible to please a larger portion of the population - by aligning the time zones properly and having a year-round time that is halfway between DST and standard time.

Currently I do. Most people don't. I'm saying if we adjusted to give people an extra hour of light in the afternoon, most people would be going to work in the dark.  And then you would have an uproar in a voting bloc of 50,000,000 people.  Politicians don't want to go meddling around to piss off any large part   of that many people.  In the end, that's all that really is going to make the determination.

And yes, it is theoretically possible, but when you think of all the constituencies that would be upended along the way, I just don't see it happening. It's a "devil you know" situation.  Moreover, in today's political climate, Congress can't get anything done anyway.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:53:21 AM by Pete from Boston »
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kalvado

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 09:06:09 AM »

People in the east will lose it if you try to make their sunrise 8:30 a.m., no matter what they say now.  If you think people don't like getting home in the dark, wait until the majority gets to join those of us that go to work in the dark.  The behavior and skill of half-awake motorists in the daylight is abysmal enough.

Less trouble arises out of leaving this alone than attempting to fix it. After decades of watching this conversation play out that is the one thing I feel fairly certain about it.

If you live in the eastern part of a time zone and still travel to work in the dark, that is far from an average case.

I don't disagree that attempting a fix would be complicated, I'm just saying it is possible to please a larger portion of the population - by aligning the time zones properly and having a year-round time that is halfway between DST and standard time.

Currently I do. Most people don't. I'm saying if we adjusted to give people an extra hour of light in the afternoon, most people would be going to work in the dark.  And then you would have an uproar in a voting bloc of 50,000,000 people.  Politicians don't want to go meddling around to piss off any large part   of that many people.  In the end, that's all that really is going to make the determination.

And yes, it is theoretically possible, but when you think of all the constituencies that would be upended along the way, I just don't see it happening. It's a "devil you know" situation.  Moreover, in today's political climate, Congress can't get anything done anyway.

Guys, I really enjoy your conversation. I'm not sure if you realize that or not - but while you both live in the same timezone, sunrise and sunset are 30 minutes earlier for Pete than for webny. Looks like that gives you somewhat different view on what is good and what is bad...
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 09:17:04 AM »

Guys, I really enjoy your conversation. I'm not sure if you realize that or not - but while you both live in the same timezone, sunrise and sunset are 30 minutes earlier for Pete than for webny. Looks like that gives you somewhat different view on what is good and what is bad...

I am definitely aware of that - I posted this above:
Also, the variation between time zones can be well over an hour - in Indianapolis they could go off of DST and still have a later sunset than Boston. If the time zones were actually lined up properly, it would solve a number of the issues, including Indiana.

I guess those from Boston (and the East Coast in general) have an early sunset anyways. So a loss of morning light would be more noticed. Whereas in Indiana, it's the loss of evening light that would be more noticed, since their mornings are already so dark.

Rochester's position near the center of the time zone gives me very little to complain about, really. I'd find both Indy and Boston challenging to adapt to in the winter - so I'm just tossing ideas around more than complaining that I'm hard done by.
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cabiness42

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 09:25:28 AM »

I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

And I want more light in the morning so I can start my work safely.

The problem with the daylight savings time conversation is, it always comes down to a stalemate between people who have one dislike and people with another.  If we all just realized there's no solution to please everybody, we could skip a lot of this.

I prefer sunrise NLT 7:00, but I understand that at a northern latitude, that makes for a very early sunset for a couple months and that others don't like that.  There just isn't enough sun in the winter for everyone to have it light when they would prefer.

As I stated earlier, my biggest problem is places (like most of Inidana) where DST is piled on top of already being one time zone too far east.  That makes for very distorted days, especially in March and October.  Growing up I was in the part of Indiana where it was Eastern but didn't do DST and that was OK, for the last 12 years I lived in the part of Indiana where it was Eastern and did do DST and absolutely hated it, and recently moved to a part of Indiana that is in Central and does DST and that's OK.  I do think DST should start at least a week later.  As it stands now, sunrise/sunset for my location on the first day of DST is 7:08/6:52 and I'd rather see it wait until it doesn't push sunrise past 7:00.  Same with having it end in early-mid October instead of November.
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kkt

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2018, 02:54:54 PM »

Some of you might enjoy this web site:

https://www.timeanddate.com/

Under "sun calculator" it shows sunrise and sunset times for every date at a location you chose.

However cloud patterns matter too.  If it's clear you can have a pretty bright twilight for an hour before sunrise or after sunset, but if it's a typical Seattle day in the winter and we have 100% overcast with thick clouds and drizzle, it'll still seem dark when the sun is above the horizon.
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english si

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2018, 03:14:21 PM »

However cloud patterns matter too.  If it's clear you can have a pretty bright twilight for an hour before sunrise or after sunset, but if it's a typical Seattle day in the winter and we have 100% overcast with thick clouds and drizzle, it'll still seem dark when the sun is above the horizon.
Also works the other way (usually in summer) with white clouds being able to reflect the sun below the horizon and make the light stay longer.
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CNGL-Leudimin

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2018, 04:58:11 PM »

Anyway, I decided to spicy up my forum time, so I moved out of Eastern and sync with Big Rig Steve, so I'll be anywhere from Eastern to Pacific now. However I retain Euro DST instead of switching to American one, thus for most of March my forum time will be one hour behind his local time, so if he goes to the West Coast I'll be setting my time to Alaska :sombrero:.

Due to this, this morning (afternoon Central Europe) I changed my forum time from Central to Mountain time :sombrero:. When his current trip reaches its destination we'll be in Pacific time.
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Scott5114

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2018, 06:15:33 PM »

I wonder what percentage of the populace actually works banker's hours these days. Among my generation, I don't know anyone who actually goes into work in the morning—about the earliest schedule I know of that someone works is a business owner that goes in at 11am sometimes. My wife and I both go to work at 2:30pm, and I have a lot of friends with start times at 4:30pm. Quitting time is anywhere between 11pm and 1am.

None of us have Saturday or Sunday off. The big social day is Tuesday.
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kkt

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2018, 07:43:14 PM »

I work 8:30-5:30, M-F.
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2018, 07:51:00 PM »

I work 8:30-5:30, M-F.

Pretty standard. But going back to my earlier question, how often is it dark on your commute?
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webny99

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2018, 08:03:41 PM »

I wonder what percentage of the populace actually works banker's hours these days. Among my generation, I don't know anyone who actually goes into work in the morning—about the earliest schedule I know of that someone works is a business owner that goes in at 11am sometimes. My wife and I both go to work at 2:30pm, and I have a lot of friends with start times at 4:30pm. Quitting time is anywhere between 11pm and 1am.

There's definitely plenty of people I know in your age group working standard hours. I'll spare the specifics and demographic details, and just say I personally know about 15-20 people in their late 20's who have a fairly regular work schedule - starting anywhere from 6 to 8 am and ending anywhere from 4 to 6 pm.

Maybe I'm just naive, but it seems like working hours and rush hours haven't done a whole lot of shifting around here, even as new age groups enter the workforce. There's only so many jobs that have hours like those you refer to.

To respond directly to your wonderment, I'd reckon around 70%, if not more, of the (full time) working population is at work between 9 and 3.
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vdeane

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2018, 08:18:01 PM »

I wonder what percentage of the populace actually works banker's hours these days. Among my generation, I don't know anyone who actually goes into work in the morning—about the earliest schedule I know of that someone works is a business owner that goes in at 11am sometimes. My wife and I both go to work at 2:30pm, and I have a lot of friends with start times at 4:30pm. Quitting time is anywhere between 11pm and 1am.

None of us have Saturday or Sunday off. The big social day is Tuesday.
I work 8:30 to 4:30.  The other major start times at NYSDOT are 8 and 7:30, though some come in at 7 or earlier (usually because they work a compressed work week), with the occasional person coming in at 9.

At my previous job, I usually came in around 9-9:30, though most people started closer to 10 (I had flex time at that one, though "core hours" were 10-3).  My internship (different company), in contrast, was 8 to 5.

I don't think I've ever had a job other than college work study that wasn't standard office hours Monday to Friday.

As for how dark it is, it isn't on the commute (though it would be if we were on permanent DST... latest sunrise here is 7:30), but it definitely is at 6 the majority of the year when I have to get up.  Since I'm a natural night owl, that makes it quite hard to get out of bed and it seems to get harder every year.
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Eth

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2018, 08:57:47 PM »

I wonder what percentage of the populace actually works banker's hours these days. Among my generation, I don't know anyone who actually goes into work in the morning—about the earliest schedule I know of that someone works is a business owner that goes in at 11am sometimes. My wife and I both go to work at 2:30pm, and I have a lot of friends with start times at 4:30pm. Quitting time is anywhere between 11pm and 1am.

None of us have Saturday or Sunday off. The big social day is Tuesday.

I have the pretty standard 8-5 Monday-Friday, similar to most people I know, though darkness on my commute isn't an issue at all because I work from home three days a week and on the days I do go in to the office (Tuesday/Thursday) I'm only actually there from 10-3 (I start and end the day at home).
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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2018, 02:29:57 AM »

If I'm working the early shift at my hotel, I have to be clocking in around 0445. This is usually after having one day off, after having worked until midnight the prior evening. Needless to say, I never get much sleep before that shift.

My friend's father works for Sysco as a truck driver. He's out the door about 0200. I have no idea how he does it.
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kkt

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2018, 01:56:31 PM »

I work 8:30-5:30, M-F.

Pretty standard. But going back to my earlier question, how often is it dark on your commute?

Well, like I posted above, how dark it is depends on both sunrise and sunset times and how heavy the cloud cover is.  But it's dark for the morning commute roughly late November to mid-January, and dark for the evening commute from the end of DST in early November until mid-February.

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KEVIN_224

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Re: DST (2018)
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2018, 03:29:34 PM »

It'll be the exact middle of February at midnight (ALREADY!). Sunrise and sunset for Hartford, CT today is 6:48 AM and 5:23 PM. The day is 10 hours 35 minutes long. Our sunset was as early as about 4:19 or 4:20 PM a couple days before the winter solstice. I feel DST should go back to early April to mid-October where it was through 2006. I still feel Indianapolis should be on central time. I definitely thought it was jarring when I visited that city in August of 2010. They're nearly exactly as far west as Nashville is (and the Music City is indeed central time).
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