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Author Topic: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot  (Read 4526 times)

roadman65

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2018, 08:28:59 PM »

It would be interesting to see who inherits the green spaded shield? 

However, if both DE and NJ bordering each other with the same shields and also IN and IL both having the same square minus the different state names, then all three could keep em just with the new state name.

Looks like I-5, though, will miss the Central California piece as the state line would be to the west of it if I am seeing the correct map.
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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2018, 08:30:48 PM »

It would be interesting to see who inherits the green spaded shield? 

However, if both DE and NJ bordering each other with the same shields and also IN and IL both having the same square minus the different state names, then all three could keep em just with the new state name.

Looks like I-5, though, will miss the Central California piece as the state line would be to the west of it if I am seeing the correct map.

Don't forget MA and CT, where the only difference is the thickness of the border, and sometimes a route shield will pretend it's in the other state.

ME also uses MA shields (standard), as do a few in NH and VT (really old ones) and RI (errors).
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2018, 08:36:11 PM »

It's not going to pass.

The current US Congress wouldn't approve it, anyway; Northern California and (regular) California are both solidly Democratic, and Southern California leans Democratic (comparable to New Mexico politically), and the current Congress is Republican.
Northern California would be Republican if the split would be move a little to the north. Like just north of San Fran. Then Redding could serve as the capitol of that state. Dosen't really matter though this is not going to happen. Not sure how West Virginia could do it.

True, but you'd also have one of the smallest and poorest populations of any state in the union, without any real solid economic base, so any little leverage they might currently wield would disappear.
There would still be more people than Vermont or Wyoming. This has been the proposed state of Jefferson. This is really the one part of California that is different from the rest.
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roadman65

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2018, 08:38:22 PM »

Will NY ever break up?  Considering that the NYC metro area and Long Island control Albany I am sure those in the Adirondack Region as well as western NY State are pissed that they have no say in what gets done in the state capital.

Remember only 40 percent of the state's 19 million are outside of the NYC area and I am sure some on the right are complaining when Cuomo wins a gubnotorial election or the fact that they are paying statewide to keep the buses and the trains running within the five boroughs with part of their paychecks.  Only a few examples but I am sure being the 40 under the 60 does have some concerns on any issue thought up by SE New Yorkers I would think.
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2018, 08:47:07 PM »

If this happens -- and I don't think it will -- then I think it would be wrong of Congress not to approve what the people in the state wanted.
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vdeane

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2018, 08:49:46 PM »

Will NY ever break up?  Considering that the NYC metro area and Long Island control Albany I am sure those in the Adirondack Region as well as western NY State are pissed that they have no say in what gets done in the state capital.

Remember only 40 percent of the state's 19 million are outside of the NYC area and I am sure some on the right are complaining when Cuomo wins a gubnotorial election or the fact that they are paying statewide to keep the buses and the trains running within the five boroughs with part of their paychecks.  Only a few examples but I am sure being the 40 under the 60 does have some concerns on any issue thought up by SE New Yorkers I would think.
There definitely have been proposals, one for most of the counties to become New Amsterdam, and one for them to join PA.  There was even one to use a constitutional convention (which the voters said no on) to split the government such that the state would effectively split without having to officially establish a new state.
 None of these went anywhere.

If this happens -- and I don't think it will -- then I think it would be wrong of Congress not to approve what the people in the state wanted.
Agreed, though I can't see the Republicans going for something that could swing between virtual status quo and favoring the Democrats depending on the political winds.
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 09:25:45 PM »

If this happens -- and I don't think it will -- then I think it would be wrong of Congress not to approve what the people in the state wanted.

My God, I agree with H.B. Elkins on something political. :bigass:
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KeithE4Phx

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 09:47:53 PM »

West Virginia's not the only state resulting from a split: Vermont split off from New York, Maine from Massachusetts, and Kentucky from Virginia. So it's been done before, in more peaceful circumstances than West Virginia's.

We've had several attempts at independent countries, as well as several state separations.

Vermont, which had been a land dispute between the then-British colonies of New York, New Hampshire, and Lower Canada (now Quebec), functioned as an independent republic between 1777 and its admission as the 14th state in 1791.

Kentucky split from Virginia in 1789, after a decade of trying to separate.  It became the 15th state in 1792.

Tennessee split from North Carolina about the same time.  An attempt at a Republic of Franklin in East Tennessee didn't last long.  It became the 16th state in 1796.

The Republic of West Florida lasted for a few months in 1810, in what is now the Gulf Coast area of Mississippi and Alabama.  The Civil War-era Bonnie Blue Flag originated here.

Maine was split off as a separate state from Massachusetts in 1820, with the Missouri Compromise.

Texas split from Mexico in the 1830s, was an independent republic for a decade or so, and was annexed and admitted to the Union in 1845.

West Virginia was created in 1863 from the western counties of Virginia that remained loyal to the Union in the Civil War.  Approval from Virginia wasn't necessary, as its government was in rebellion against the United States.

North and South Dakota were created from the Dakota Territory in 1889.  Among the reasons was to have four Republican Senators instead of two, had the entire territory been admitted as one state.

Hawaii had been a sovereign kingdom, until US corporate interests overthrew the monarchy in the 1890s.  It was governed as a republic for a few years, until it was admitted to the US as a territory in 1898.  It was granted statehood in 1959.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:04:00 PM by KeithE4Phx »
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 10:07:12 PM »

Will NY ever break up?  Considering that the NYC metro area and Long Island control Albany I am sure those in the Adirondack Region as well as western NY State are pissed that they have no say in what gets done in the state capital.
There definitely have been proposals

I've often thought that Upstate NY on its own would be an intense swing state (maybe even replacing Ohio as "bellwether") in national elections.
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webny99

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2018, 10:18:44 PM »

The current US Congress wouldn't approve it, anyway; Northern California and (regular) California are both solidly Democratic, and Southern California leans Democratic (comparable to New Mexico politically), and the current Congress is Republican.
The fact that one of the three isn't solidly blue means a split would probably be good for Republicans. Then at least they'd have a shot at winning in part of it, which is more than they can say now.
The balance in the senate would change from 2 reliably Democratic seats to 4 reliably Democratic seats and 2 tossup seats.
Likewise, in the Electoral College the balance would change from 1 reliably Democratic state to 2 reliably Democratic states and 1 tossup state.  The GOP isn't going to go for it.

I wasn't thinking of the Senate, I think 100 senators is enough!
But in the Electoral College, the GOP still has potential to at least it tap into the largest bloc of electoral votes in the nation. It's not much, but it certainly couldn't hurt.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2018, 12:04:05 AM »

The water rights alone make this a non-starter.  The Sierras watershed alone basically ties the entire state together no matter what at this point.  If something like this ever was going to work it needed to be before 1900 before the infrastructure was built up.

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2018, 12:06:42 AM »

If this happens -- and I don't think it will -- then I think it would be wrong of Congress not to approve what the people in the state wanted.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time Congress did something wrong.  :)
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kkt

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2018, 12:11:02 AM »

If this happens -- and I don't think it will -- then I think it would be wrong of Congress not to approve what the people in the state wanted.

That's an interesting point of view.  It's to some disadvantage to all the other states because it would dilute their representation in Congress.  During the pre-Civil War era when new western states were admitted in pairs to maintain balance in the Senate, was that wrong?
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kkt

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2018, 12:18:19 AM »

The water rights alone make this a non-starter.  The Sierras watershed alone basically ties the entire state together no matter what at this point.  If something like this ever was going to work it needed to be before 1900 before the infrastructure was built up.

It would certainly be one of the trickiest negotiations ever!  They would have to negotiate some kind of permanent water rights, and what would happen if there wasn't enough water to satisfy everyone's rights.  Current water rights holders would have to get their rights protected in some way.  The South Calfornia and New California sections have too many people and too much irrigation for the amount of water in their regions.

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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2018, 12:22:37 AM »

The water rights alone make this a non-starter.  The Sierras watershed alone basically ties the entire state together no matter what at this point.  If something like this ever was going to work it needed to be before 1900 before the infrastructure was built up.

It would certainly be one of the trickiest negotiations ever!  They would have to negotiate some kind of permanent water rights, and what would happen if there wasn't enough water to satisfy everyone's rights.  Current water rights holders would have to get their rights protected in some way.  The South Calfornia and New California sections have too many people and too much irrigation for the amount of water in their regions.

The Southern California proposed state would stand to dominate the water rights with an exclusive border with the Colorado River.  Not only that a large chunk of the big water projects in the Sierras like Big Creek and the Los Angeles Aqueduct would be in Southern California.  So what happens to the cities on the coast in terms of water rights?  There is no way Congress would approve a measure like this with the massive headache it would cause sorting everything out.  The easier solution is just to shoot the measure down and call it a day.

SP Cook

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2018, 09:38:48 AM »


West Virginia was created in 1863 from the western counties of Virginia that remained loyal to the Union in the Civil War.  Approval from Virginia wasn't necessary, as its government was in rebellion against the United States.

Not exactly.  It went down like this:

In 1861, the Governor wired the mayor of Wheeling and told him to cease the Customs House and other federal property.   The mayor responed, more or less, f*** off. 

Then Congress declared all of the other CSA states, but only a list of counties in Virginia as "in rebelion".  A group of more or less self-appointed men, almost all of them from north of today's US 50 and west of the eastern continental divide met in Wheeling and styled themselves the "Restored ( or Reorganized) Government of Virginia" and proceeded to appoint themselves as Governor, Supreme Court, Delegate, St. Senator, and so on.  It sent two appointed Senators as "Virginia" to DC, and five of the 13 congressmen from Virginia remained in DC as well, or were replaced by appointees.  Several companies of soldiers that styled themselves as "Virginia (loyal) " were raised. 

That government, proclaiming itself as "Virginia" approved the creation of the state.  Since the part that actually was "loyal" was far too small to constitute a state, they included vastly more territory.  Going all the way to Jefferson County (home of the federal arsenal and the B&O shops, both highly valuable in that era) and including the then virtually unpopulated region now known as the "southern coalfield" as well as the Kanawha and Greenbrier valleys, all of which were uninterested in the venture and pro confederate. 

First the "Virginia" legislature and the "Virginia" governor approved and then they held a referendum.  Most counties in the southern and eastern 2/3rds of the state ignored the whole matter and no election was held there.    The "governor" of "Virginia", Frances Pierpont, then sent his permission for WV to be formed. 

Post war, most people in the southern 2/3rds of the state were disenfranchised until the mid 1870s.  Pierpont took his "government" to Alexendria and later to Richmond, but having acomplished its purpose, the army mostly ignored him and treated the remnant Virginia like the rest of the CSA. 

WV politically remained a "vote the way granddaddy shot" state until the Depression changed the political outlook. 

Oddly, the part of today's Virginia that is south and west of today's WV actually was loyal to the union and, as the "fighting ninth" congressional district was, along with neighboring parts of upper east Tennessee and southeast and south central Kentucky, the most Republican part of the south until the end of the straight ticket Jim Crow democrat era. 

Actually just allowing the 6 to 10 counties near Pennsylvania to join it would have been better for everyone. 

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Henry

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2018, 10:40:56 AM »

I don't see this coming to be. I mean, 50 states is more than enough, and I see it forever remaining that way.
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2018, 11:06:24 AM »

I'v had the thought that the 5 most populous cities should be their own states, but that's a non starter, as those cities want to control the rest of the state.



Kick out Cook.
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2018, 11:20:26 AM »

I'v had the thought that the 5 most populous cities should be their own states, but that's a non starter, as those cities want to control the rest of the state.

This would mean that Texas has two "holes" in it (one for Dallas and one for Houston).
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2018, 11:28:43 AM »

I'v had the thought that the 5 most populous cities should be their own states, but that's a non starter, as those cities want to control the rest of the state.



Kick out Cook.

I'd settle for just kicking out Chicago, Evanston, and a few other close in suburbs.  NW Cook is more like DuPage County North.
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2018, 11:33:51 AM »

I'v had the thought that the 5 most populous cities should be their own states, but that's a non starter, as those cities want to control the rest of the state.

This would mean that Texas has two "holes" in it (one for Dallas and one for Houston).

Actually the new states would be, as of data from 2017..

NYC
Los Angeles
Chicago
Houston
Phoenix

Dallas was #9 on the list
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webny99

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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2018, 11:38:16 AM »

I'v had the thought that the 5 most populous cities should be their own states, but that's a non starter, as those cities want to control the rest of the state.
This would mean that Texas has two "holes" in it (one for Dallas and one for Houston).
Actually the new states would be, as of data from 2017..

NYC/Los Angeles/Chicago/Houston/Phoenix
Dallas was #9 on the list

It makes a lot more sense to go by metro area population instead of city proper population, due to arbitrary annexing in the south, and so forth. Dallas-Fort Worth is the 4th-largest metro area in the US, so it would be included by that criteria.
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2018, 11:44:03 AM »

I'v had the thought that the 5 most populous cities should be their own states, but that's a non starter, as those cities want to control the rest of the state.

This would mean that Texas has two "holes" in it (one for Dallas and one for Houston).

Actually the new states would be, as of data from 2017..

NYC
Los Angeles
Chicago
Houston
Phoenix

Dallas was #9 on the list

Two of those are in red states, so if your issue is that blue cities are making otherwise-red states blue or purple, what would that solve?
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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2018, 11:48:14 AM »

It would be interesting to see who inherits the green spaded shield? 
Maybe they’ll keep it or change it from state to state (as in, slight design variations).


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Re: Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2018, 11:57:27 AM »

Regarding Congress, what people are forgetting is that the House is very likely to flip to the Democrats in this year’s election. The Senate is probably a coin flip at this point. So in 2019, any voter-approved split in CA would have a more friendly reception on Capitol Hill. (Of course, Trump could veto it and there’s no chance Congress has the votes to override.)
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