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Author Topic: How do you define the Midwest?  (Read 5268 times)

jon daly

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #100 on: September 26, 2018, 09:40:49 AM »

NCAA - The use of "regional" by the NCAA is very dated.  As pointed out, they used to assign teams according to actual geography.  This was because the $$ were in the live gate, and if Kentucky won the SEC and got sent to Louisville, or Indy, or Knoxville or Nashville and so on they sold a lot of tickets. 

Now they have turned the whole thing into an over-analyzed try to make everybody equal thing which sends teams all over.   Because the money is in the TV and one arena is the same as the next, all are just studios, really. 

Outside of games involving local or local ish teams the easiest ticket in live sports to get is the first round NCAA, particularly the day sessions.

Yeah. When I was heavily into college hoops and followed UConn, they'd wind up in whatever region. college basketball reference surely has the data, but I'd be willing to guess that the "de-regionalization" of the tournament happened after the Bird-Magic tournament turned the NCAA into a Big Time thing.*

* But I'm not sure if that's when March Madness started or if its a myth.
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kphoger

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #101 on: September 26, 2018, 10:10:34 AM »

I've lived in Illinois and Kansas my whole life, grew up in the northwestern corner of Kansas.  It never occurred to me that I was not living in the Midwest.  To me, the Great Plains is a subsection of the Midwest.

To me, the Midwest extends from the Front Range to Ohio, and from the Canadian border to whatever point begins the Mid-south.  My thinking might be more agricultural in nature than anything:  the Midwest is the part of the country between the East and the West with extensive large-scale farming.

Doesn't that mean you would consider places like Denver to be part of the Midwest? I'm pretty sure anybody in Colorado would consider themselves Western.

No, Denver is part of the Front Range, and it is therefore part of the western boundary.  Between the KS/CO state line and Denver, the geography becomes a little more western and the ranch-to-farm ratio increases, so that boundary is a little fuzzy.  However, the plains do extend basically right up to Denver's doorstep, with large-scale farming on rectilinear plots right next door to DIA.  I have distinct memories of looking out the window at DIA and seeing combines and cattle.

ETA:   Anton (CO), for example, bears more resemblance to Strawn (IL) than you might think.



And I'd include the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas before I'd include Ohio, so there's that.

When I first heard Cincinnati referred to as the "Queen City of the West," I thought it must be a joke.  Then I started thinking about how long ago that moniker must have been applied, and it made more sense.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 10:26:09 AM by kphoger »
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Eth

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2018, 10:12:37 AM »

That might be why I have a hard time thinking of the Great Plains as part of the Midwest.  I tend to think of the Midwest as being in the eastern part of the country.
Expanding this, I tend to think of the Midwest as "the northeastern part of the country that isn't actually part of the Northeast".  The Mississippi River, to me, is a Very Important Boundary (as is the Ohio River).
I would very much consider Minnesota and Iowa part of the Midwest, despite being west of the Mississippi.

Yeah, Minnesota and Iowa are very much part of the Midwest. In fact, if I had to pick one single state that is without question, undeniably, part of the Midwest, it would be Iowa. It's very agricultural, and it's a perfect geographic fit, being too far north to have cultural ties to the south, and situated distinctly west of East and east of West.

I was thinking the same thing. That said, I like the idea of major rivers as boundaries. I might go with the Missouri River as the western boundary instead of the Mississippi.

Or, to echo a sentiment from further upthread, any state that had a Big Ten school prior to the 1990s.
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hbelkins

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM »

The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
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webny99

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2018, 02:33:02 PM »

Plenty of posts from the IL/IN area stating KC should be part of the Midwest, but the rest of Kansas shouldn't.
Yikes. If anything, I would have that reversed. Anything with ties to Missouri is very distinctly un-Midwestern, being a much better fit with the Mid-South/south in general.
Meanwhile, I agree that Kansas, and to a lesser extent Oklahoma, are very much a part of the Midwest. Excluding some of the most centrally-located and flattest states in the nation from one's definition of Midwest seems a bit foolish - aren't flat and central the geographic qualifiers?
It's impossible to include Oklahoma but exclude Missouri.

Not impossible; it just creates a Midwest region with a rather interesting shape. Missouri (and Southern IL for that matter) end up looking like a peninsula of the South jutting into the Midwest, which I think has merit.
Oklahoma, at least IMO, has more Midwestern characteristics than Missouri, although the further north you go in Missouri, the more Midwestern it gets. Anything south of I-44, in particular, has more in common with the South.

The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.

Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
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kphoger

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2018, 02:41:54 PM »

The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.

Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.

And the meth-head rednecks.

(halfway serious)
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webny99

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2018, 02:44:41 PM »

The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
And the meth-head rednecks.
(halfway serious)

Only halfway serious, because the real Midwest has some of those too :-D
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kphoger

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #107 on: September 26, 2018, 02:58:50 PM »

The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
And the meth-head rednecks.
(halfway serious)

Only halfway serious, because the real Midwest has some of those too :-D

But still serious because of the sheer number of drug addicts I've known from the Ozarks.  A former co-worker of mine used to live in Springfield, and he noticed it too.  He had taken to calling Springfield "Meth Town USA".  The ones I've known (and am related to) are from the Branson area.

On the redneck side of it...  southern Missouri has that in spades.
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TheHighwayMan394

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #108 on: September 26, 2018, 03:50:36 PM »

Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.
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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #109 on: September 26, 2018, 04:28:05 PM »

I think meth is a serious problem across the country, not at all exclusive to any one part of the country. I've known a remarkable number of people here in the Pacific Northwest who have done meth, or were addicted.
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tchafe1978

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2018, 04:30:27 PM »

So much debate about trivial matters. Anyway, I've always considered the Midwest to be Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota. The Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, and Oklahoma have always been the Plains States. Missouri is kind of on an island by itself, not really Midwest, or South, or Plains.
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kphoger

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2018, 04:38:02 PM »

In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south.  The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.
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SSOWorld

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #112 on: September 26, 2018, 06:17:38 PM »

In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south.  The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.
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webny99

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #113 on: September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM »

In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south.  The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.

Agreed. North of I-70 has more in common with the Midwest, while South of I-44 is basically an extension of the South.
In between I-70 and I-44 is a bit of a gray zone - figuratively, not literally - but if I had to pick one as the hard line, I'd gravitate towards I-44.

Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 09:17:54 AM by webny99 »
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TXtoNJ

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2018, 09:45:10 AM »

In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south.  The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.

Agreed. North of I-70 has more in common with the Midwest, while South of I-44 is basically an extension of the South.
In between I-70 and I-44 is a bit of a gray zone - figuratively, not literally - but if I had to pick one as the hard line, I'd gravitate towards I-44.

Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Having lived in both TX and OK, I can tell you - Oklahoma depends on which part of the state you're in. The Southeast is called "Little Dixie" and is very much like East Texas and Northern Louisiana in character. The rest of Eastern Oklahoma is called "Green Country" and functions as an extension of the Ozarks.

The center of the state is most like North Texas, unless you're north of a line running from about Elk City diagonally through Bartlesville and Miami, where the subtropical climate ends and it becomes more continental like Kansas.

The west of the state is the most like the Southwest, but it is nevertheless mostly Plains in character. Everywhere north and west of Woodward is High Plains, particularly in the Panhandle.
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kphoger

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #115 on: September 27, 2018, 10:03:11 AM »

I also struggle with where to draw the line between Fargo, ND (obviously the Midwest) and Glacier National Park, MT (obviously not).
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Brandon

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #116 on: September 27, 2018, 11:36:28 AM »

I also struggle with where to draw the line between Fargo, ND (obviously the Midwest) and Glacier National Park, MT (obviously not).

100th Meridian works just fine, IMHO.

The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.

Missouri, to an Upper Midwesterner's point of view is very much southern south of US-50.  North of US-50, it might was well be southern Iowa.
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hbelkins

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #117 on: September 27, 2018, 02:35:46 PM »

I think meth is a serious problem across the country, not at all exclusive to any one part of the country. I've known a remarkable number of people here in the Pacific Northwest who have done meth, or were addicted.

Meth actually made its way to the Appalachian Mountains by way of the Midwest. I attended a seminar about 15 years ago where the spread of meth from west to east was discussed. It was popular in the agricultural states of the Midwest because of the easy availability of anhydrous ammonia, one of the main ingredients. Meth makers were stealing the anhydrous ammonia used for fertilizer.
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ce929wax

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Re: How do you define the Midwest?
« Reply #118 on: September 27, 2018, 05:22:57 PM »

In regards to Missouri, my dealings have been south of I-44.  I consider St. Louis to be the Midwest, but consider places like Springfield to be the south.  I also consider the bootheel to be the south because I saw many cotton farms along I-55.  The only kind of "midwestern" quality the bootheel had was where you would begin to see Amoco stations on I-55 when they existed.  However, Amoco was also in the South (at least the southeast), so there is that.

As for Oklahoma, my experience has been that Eastern Oklahoma has a lot of the same qualities as Arkansas and Western Oklahoma has a lot of the same qualities as Texas and even New Mexico in the panhandle.  I would consider Eastern Oklahoma to be the south and Western Oklahoma to be the southwest.
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