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Author Topic: How do you define the South?  (Read 1561 times)

bandit957

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2018, 04:21:40 PM »

I just use the official Census Bureau or federal definitions that divide the country into 4 regions - except that if a state is mostly north of 36° 30' N and didn't join the Confederacy, I just put it in another region. This means Maryland, Delaware, and D.C. join the Northeast. It also means Kentucky and West Virginia join the Midwest. I know West Virginia is really in a league of its own, but it was split from Virginia for a reason.

When I put up a set of road photos, some states can be in whatever region suits the purpose at hand. For instance, Kentucky can be in a set of photos from the South - or the Midwest.
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2018, 04:50:09 PM »

TX, AR, OK, NC, SC, AL, MS, GA, TN, VA, LA

KY is borderline but I consider it southern. MD/DE I feel more Northeast than South.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 04:52:12 PM by TheHighwayMan394 »
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2018, 05:29:29 PM »

I've often thought of Texas as the intersection of the South with the Southwest. Culturally, I would consider west TX - El Paso and Big Bend down to the RGV - as Southwestern: a mostly desert environment where 'home cookin' is often TexMex.

Much of east Texas definitely has a southern feel similar (if not identical) to the 'deep South.'. 'Home cookin' " in the woods is usually biscuits-and-gravy fare.

The panhandle feels a bit different from both of these - but I'm not sure how to characterize it. . .  kind of midwestern-adjacent-ish.... similar (though I'm not sure many Texans would admit it) to Oklahoma.
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Beltway

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2018, 06:17:14 PM »

"Mid-Atlantic" or "Middle-Atlantic" is an informal term, not a recognized major region of the country.  Geographically North Carolina is Mid-Atlantic.
Northern Virginia is not southern, it is more like New Jersey.  The rest of Virginia is certainly in the South.
So most of Virginia is in the south, but North Carolina, which is south of Virginia, is Mid-Atlantic?
Technically speaking, even North and South, Northeast, West, etc will vary based on the industry, news program, politics, etc.  There's no true defined term for them either.

Just saying that N.C. is on the Altantic Ocean and in the middle eastern seaboard.

It's funny, Wikipedia has a "Mid-Atlantic Region" page, and it shows VA, WV, MD, DE, NJ, PA and NY being in this region!  That goes all the way to Canada.  They're basically throwing darts themselves.
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hbelkins

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2018, 06:48:44 PM »

As a Kentuckian, I think we're more southern than midwestern, but I don't really consider us to be "the south" unless we're being compared to the northeast or New England.

To me, the mid-Atlantic is Maryland, Delaware, eastern Pennsylvania (and I am aware it does not touch the ocean), New Jersey, and southeastern New York (NYC and Long Island.) And I consider those sections mentioned of Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York, as also being northeastern.

To me, Virginia is more southern than Kentucky.

And there's that whole Appalachian thing that was mentioned upthread.
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2018, 07:09:04 PM »


I think the line in Virginia has gradually moved further south over the years, too.

Fredericksburg

^Agreed. Not only does one traveling southbound on I-95 see their first giant roadside Confederate Flag(Near Falmouth), but also just across the Rappahannock River, there is a random southbound VA Welcome Center. A couple of years back when stopped there, I asked the front desk lady why the welcome center was in the location it was in. She simply replied "Cuz you in the South now boy. Welcome!"
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 07:11:11 PM by Jmiles32 »
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2018, 07:53:55 PM »

I find that my conception of the South corresponds fairly well to the areas where "y'all" is more common than "you guys," as seen in the map below:

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formulanone

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2018, 09:10:45 PM »

I find that my conception of the South corresponds fairly well to the areas where "y'all" is more common than "you guys," as seen in the map below:



It used to be "availability of sweet tea on a menu" is a pretty good barometer.


I think the line in Virginia has gradually moved further south over the years, too.

Fredericksburg

^Agreed. Not only does one traveling southbound on I-95 see their first giant roadside Confederate Flag(Near Falmouth), but also just across the Rappahannock River, there is a random southbound VA Welcome Center. A couple of years back when stopped there, I asked the front desk lady why the welcome center was in the location it was in. She simply replied "Cuz you in the South now boy. Welcome!"

Then again, I've seen the stars-and-bars in Ohio, New York, and even...Alberta.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 09:13:34 PM by formulanone »
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2018, 09:12:37 PM »

Then define "Confederacy".  Lots of problems.
Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.
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Beltway

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2018, 09:33:03 PM »

Then define "Confederacy".  Lots of problems.
Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.

What "had to be readmitted"?  They were forced into the union at the point of a gun.
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2018, 12:04:44 AM »

I find that my conception of the South corresponds fairly well to the areas where "y'all" is more common than "you guys," as seen in the map below:



It used to be "availability of sweet tea on a menu" is a pretty good barometer.


There is no doubt about this! This definitely puts MO out of the south....no matter what conference Mizzou plays in. (they shouldn't be in the SEC, but that is a whole other subject for another place & time.)
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CNGL-Leudimin

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2018, 07:35:27 AM »

The compromise with the line (36 degrees, 30 minutes north) was the Missouri Compromise.  the Compromise of 1850 retained the Missouri Compromise line and extended it westward.  What thoroughly fouled everything up was the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854.

Yeah, I meant the Missouri Compromise line, extended Eastward from Missouri (I thought it also went East of the Mississippi, but it seems it didn't). Of course, I consider any portions of Tennessee and North Carolina north of 36.5° part of the South, as both states were supposed to have their northern boundary at that line. Not sure about if Virginia is also part of the South, and definitely it is not North of US 460.

However, my definitions of the South and the Midwest leave Kentucky, and especially the Western part of it, in a gray zone.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 07:54:38 AM by CNGL-Leudimin »
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webny99

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2018, 08:51:56 AM »

I find much of Missouri, Southern Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, and Kentucky, to be fairly Southern. They definitely have the traditional accent and culture of the South, albeit with a lower African American population, removing them from "Deep South" status.

West Virginia, on the other hand, is definitely not part of the South, and Virginia has been drifting away from the South for decades, if not over a century. North Carolina doesn't strike me as very Southern either; too many Northern vacationers, maybe? Not sure what it is but NC seems very distinct from the true South, more in a class with Virginia.

Tennessee is definitely Southern, yet not Deep South, similar to my first category above. Oklahoma is definitely more Midwestern. While parts of Texas have commonalities to the Deep South, western Texas has much more in common with New Mexico and Arizona, so I wouldn't classify it as part of the traditional South, more of a separate "Southwest" Region influenced by Mexico.

Florida has become increasingly hard to classify. It's East in general more than South specifically, IMO. Too many Northerners to be classified with the true South.

The only entire states that are definitely in the South are AR, LA, MS, AL, GA, and SC.
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2018, 10:35:47 AM »

NC has a lot of transplants from up north. One of my coworkers worked in Charlotte for a bit. It's a big finance center. There's also the Research Triangle.

OTOH, years ago a lot of southerners went up north to work in factories; especially during the WOrld Wars.
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bmorrill

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2018, 10:39:19 AM »

Here in West Texas, we consider anything west of I-35 to be part of the Southwest. South of I-10 is La Frontera :sombrero:. East Texas is definitely the South. Dallas is sometimes lumped in with "The Yankeelands", along with everything beyond the northern and eastern borders.

Austin is just "weird".
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2018, 10:47:22 AM »

Two observations.

- To me, "mid-Atlantic" is just a made up term.  One can easily say phrases like "Southern manners" or "Midwestern values" or "Western grit" or "New England resolve" or even "New Jersey attitude" or "West Coast leftism".  Is "mid-Atlanticican" even a word?  Can you think of a single individual characteristic that people in the "mid-Atlantic", however you define it, share? 

- A lot of opinions above that shrink the size of the South, seem to be based on interactions in cities.  Get a county or two away from the big cities and you will find a whole different world.  (Actually, getting a county or two away from the big cities is helpful in 1000 ways in terms of cultural understanding.)
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2018, 11:27:59 AM »

Mid Atlantic was a region during the colonial era; but even then it was diverse. New York was settled by the Dutch while Pennsylvania was a polyglot of Quakers, Germans, and others. I'm not up on New Jersey. Hell, I assumed there was a direct highway route from the Turnpike to Philly.
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2018, 01:23:30 PM »

Then define "Confederacy".  Lots of problems.
Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.

What "had to be readmitted"?  They were forced into the union at the point of a gun.
They were required to have 10% of the population take an oath of loyalty, write a new state constitution, and form a new state government.  Sounds like readmitting to me.  Through I would have preferred the Wade-Davis Bill rather than Lincoln's plan.

Mid Atlantic was a region during the colonial era; but even then it was diverse. New York was settled by the Dutch while Pennsylvania was a polyglot of Quakers, Germans, and others. I'm not up on New Jersey. Hell, I assumed there was a direct highway route from the Turnpike to Philly.
It was given to Sir George Carteret to settle a debt; prior to that, it was essentially part of New York.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 01:25:33 PM by vdeane »
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Beltway

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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2018, 03:50:27 PM »

Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.
What "had to be readmitted"?  They were forced into the union at the point of a gun.
They were required to have 10% of the population take an oath of loyalty, write a new state constitution, and form a new state government.  Sounds like readmitting to me.  Through I would have preferred the Wade-Davis Bill rather than Lincoln's plan.

They had no choice.  Lincoln had just killed over 700 thousand Americans in his effort to force those states back into the union.  He would have killed more people if they didn't go along with those 'terms'.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 03:52:38 PM by Beltway »
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2018, 03:58:33 PM »

Related, they refer to the Ciivil War as "War of Northern Aggression"
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2018, 05:04:50 PM »

Related, they refer to the Ciivil War as "War of Northern Aggression"

You mean the "War of the Southern Temper Tantrum"?
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2018, 06:12:40 PM »

Speaking of Texas my personal opinion is that everything west of San Antonio falls into the Mountain West whereas everything to the east has more in common with the south.  Oklahoma is kind of a toss up between South and Mid-West.

I would agree.  West Texas has that southwest feel and everything east of I-35 and about an hour west of I-35 is definitely the south.  Except Austin, which is East California.
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2018, 06:20:37 PM »

Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.
What "had to be readmitted"?  They were forced into the union at the point of a gun.
They were required to have 10% of the population take an oath of loyalty, write a new state constitution, and form a new state government.  Sounds like readmitting to me.  Through I would have preferred the Wade-Davis Bill rather than Lincoln's plan.

They had no choice.  Lincoln had just killed over 700 thousand Americans in his effort to force those states back into the union.  He would have killed more people if they didn't go along with those 'terms'.

Who fired first, again?
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2018, 06:27:29 PM »

They had no choice.  Lincoln had just killed over 700 thousand Americans in his effort to force those states back into the union.  He would have killed more people if they didn't go along with those 'terms'.
Who fired first, again?

South Carolina firing on South Carolina, at squatters?  Nobody died there, they just wanted to cause discomfort.  Not a casus belli.
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Re: How do you define the South?
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2018, 07:06:30 PM »

I guess I'll chip in. I'd say the South consists of all the original British colonies (Virginia, the Carolinas, and Georgia) at the time of the Revolution (so this includes Kentucky, W. Virginia, Alabama, Tennessee, and maybe Mississippi). If you think about it, the Southern accent is pretty much a corruption of the British accent (also why Brits are really good at Southern accents).
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