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Author Topic: CONELRAD  (Read 2234 times)

Beltway

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2018, 03:54:06 PM »

All these comments about smart phones.

Who else heard it on the AM radio like I did?
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abefroman329

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2018, 04:06:48 PM »

If the first notice a reasonably alert person who follows the news has of a major national emergency is a Presidential Alert on his or her phone, then that in itself is a serious problem, quite aside from the emergency itself.
Doesn't seem that farfetched - I don’t watch live TV or listen to the radio and I don’t live on social media.
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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2018, 04:29:34 PM »

Who else heard it on the AM radio like I did?

I had my radio dial locked on 640 like a good boy scout—to no avail.

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RobbieL2415

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2018, 06:40:54 AM »

If the first notice a reasonably alert person who follows the news has of a major national emergency is a Presidential Alert on his or her phone, then that in itself is a serious problem, quite aside from the emergency itself.
I believe the purpose of the EAS suite is to inform the public of a national emergency when there isn't any time for news media to report on it.
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Beltway

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2018, 07:37:00 AM »

Who else heard it on the AM radio like I did?
I had my radio dial locked on 640 like a good boy scout—to no avail.

How major of a station is that?  I heard it on WRVA 1140 which is regional with 50,000 watts day and night.

The CONELRAD system that used AM 640 and 1240 ended decades ago.
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kalvado

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2018, 08:53:24 AM »

If the first notice a reasonably alert person who follows the news has of a major national emergency is a Presidential Alert on his or her phone, then that in itself is a serious problem, quite aside from the emergency itself.
Anyone who actually works at their job can easily have 1-2-4-8 hours outside of news and social media environment. Nights sleep is another few hours long blackout.
 And there can easily be emergencies requiring a response time of less than an hour. Outside of war or terrorism scenarios: any big cloud moved by the wind (Chernobyl, Yellowstone, Bhopal) or emergency/fire on big industrial installation which may lead to a catastrophe (Halifax). Storm quickly changing direction and striking area under only a vague warning is possible - I believe that was part of Sandy's situation.

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MikeTheActuary

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2018, 09:35:39 AM »

If the first notice a reasonably alert person who follows the news has of a major national emergency is a Presidential Alert on his or her phone, then that in itself is a serious problem, quite aside from the emergency itself.

I think certain extreme, unlikely, dire situations merit the interruption:  "A rogue sub has launched missiles at your area. Take shelter immediately."  "Zombies are real and headed your way."   "Cuban and Russian paratroopers have snuck in. Go to the mountains Wolverines."

I can imagine the discussion when they were designing the system: "We need to get weather/disaster alerts to people who are otherwise unplugged." "We should give people the option as to whether they want/need tornado warnings."  "Well, OK, but there should be some way to get messages that you can't opt out of...."
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roadman

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2018, 10:38:38 AM »

All these comments about smart phones.

Who else heard it on the AM radio like I did?

Came over the AM and FM stations co-workers listen to about a minute after I got the smartphone alert.
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hbelkins

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2018, 11:05:05 AM »

It came over WLAP-AM (630), to which I was listening via the iHeartRadio app, a few minutes after the phone alerts.
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J N Winkler

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2018, 11:48:58 AM »

Doesn't seem that farfetched - I don’t watch live TV or listen to the radio and I don’t live on social media.

I believe the purpose of the EAS suite is to inform the public of a national emergency when there isn't any time for news media to report on it.

Anyone who actually works at their job can easily have 1-2-4-8 hours outside of news and social media environment. Nights sleep is another few hours long blackout.

And there can easily be emergencies requiring a response time of less than an hour. Outside of war or terrorism scenarios: any big cloud moved by the wind (Chernobyl, Yellowstone, Bhopal) or emergency/fire on big industrial installation which may lead to a catastrophe (Halifax). Storm quickly changing direction and striking area under only a vague warning is possible - I believe that was part of Sandy's situation.

I think certain extreme, unlikely, dire situations merit the interruption:  "A rogue sub has launched missiles at your area. Take shelter immediately."  "Zombies are real and headed your way."   "Cuban and Russian paratroopers have snuck in. Go to the mountains Wolverines."

I can imagine the discussion when they were designing the system: "We need to get weather/disaster alerts to people who are otherwise unplugged." "We should give people the option as to whether they want/need tornado warnings."  "Well, OK, but there should be some way to get messages that you can't opt out of...."

I was thinking in terms of a hypothetical scenario where, e.g., Little Rocket Man wakes up in the morning, presses the button completely on a whim, and the first the US public knows of it is a top-level EAS message saying the missiles are on their way.  Would this be widely believed?  I doubt it, because we rely on the news media as part of an extended early warning system.  News reporting of growing international tensions cues us to the greater likelihood of an emergency requiring some form of announcement and response, and helps buttress the credibility of an EAS message when a specific event happens that requires its dispatch.  Similarly, an announcement of a EF-5 tornado on the ground and headed toward a populated area (justifying the rarely-used Tornado Emergency alert) or a Category 3+ hurricane making landfall near a large city is typically preceded by wall-to-wall coverage of the developing storm system by news providers.  This coverage is available over radio, TV, and the Internet other than through social media.  (I am active on social media, but I never rely on it for news--I at least headline-surf on the websites of two newspapers daily.)

To cite some historical examples:

*  Pearl Harbor was a surprise as to scope, timing, and battle tactics used, but was not completely unexpected since tensions were rising between the US and Japan and the US had just embargoed shipments of oil and rubber (both inputs for war matériel) to Japan

*  The eruption of Mount St. Helens was a surprise only as to the specific day and time; USGS volcanologists were aware that it was imminent and evacuations had already been ordered and largely carried out

*  Katrina (the inspiration for the current EAS) was forecast well in advance, with Interstates in the vicinity of New Orleans placed into contraflow operation about a week before landfall (most of the deaths were eventually traced to forms of poverty and social exclusion that include limited access to news)

The industrial disasters Kalvado cites (Bhopal, Chernobyl, Halifax; one could also cite Texas City, as well as examples of deliberate sabotage like Black Tom) are more likely to arrive as complete surprises because they are the result of safety lapses or covert action, both of which are carefully shielded from public view and media reporting.  Most of them, however, have been very local in scope, and I am not sure even something like Halifax, Texas City, or Black Tom would attract a top-level EAS message under the rules currently in use.
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abefroman329

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2018, 01:06:21 PM »

“North Korea nukes Hawaii” is not a great example - unless Kim Jong Un posted some OBL-esque video to YouTube showing him pushing the red button, there’d be no scenario where people would find out through other channels before our government made an official announcement. If 9/11 happened today, we’d learn about the events through social media before we learned about them through other channels.

I think these push notifications would be a great way to get word about some sort of nationwide shelter-in-place order, or declaration of martial law, or evacuation order.
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J N Winkler

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2018, 01:20:47 PM »

“North Korea nukes Hawaii” is not a great example - unless Kim Jong Un posted some OBL-esque video to YouTube showing him pushing the red button, there’d be no scenario where people would find out through other channels before our government made an official announcement.

"North Korea nukes Hawaii" is a great example of how the system can fail because previous news coverage has not primed the public to expect an emergency alert of some kind.

I think these push notifications would be a great way to get word about some sort of nationwide shelter-in-place order, or declaration of martial law, or evacuation order.

Yes, and they offer wider possibilities for coordination of response and reaching segments of the community that are under-served by other media channels.  But as a general rule, emergency alerts are better at eliciting the desired safety outcomes when the event being warned of is not a complete surprise.
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hbelkins

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2018, 03:02:48 PM »

"North Korea nukes Hawaii."

"Oops, we lied."

Happened not too long ago, more or less.
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abefroman329

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2018, 03:12:23 PM »

"North Korea nukes Hawaii."

"Oops, we lied."

Happened not too long ago, more or less.
Yeah, that never happens on social media or in the MSM.
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J N Winkler

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2018, 03:36:15 PM »

This is a bit of a tangent, but I have never understood the trend of getting one's news through social media rather than established news websites, Google Alerts for unusual topics, etc.  I find it alienating to follow celebrities and other newsmakers on Facebook and Twitter, so I don't do it, and the Facebook friends whose news judgment I trust the most tend to be the least likely to share news stories.
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abefroman329

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2018, 05:54:16 PM »

This is a bit of a tangent, but I have never understood the trend of getting one's news through social media rather than established news websites, Google Alerts for unusual topics, etc.  I find it alienating to follow celebrities and other newsmakers on Facebook and Twitter, so I don't do it, and the Facebook friends whose news judgment I trust the most tend to be the least likely to share news stories.
I just follow established, legitimate news outlets on FB.  If there's a story I want to follow in real time, or it's something that's of too limited interest to show up on FB, I go to one of their websites.
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hbelkins

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2018, 09:50:17 PM »

This is a bit of a tangent, but I have never understood the trend of getting one's news through social media rather than established news websites, Google Alerts for unusual topics, etc.  I find it alienating to follow celebrities and other newsmakers on Facebook and Twitter, so I don't do it, and the Facebook friends whose news judgment I trust the most tend to be the least likely to share news stories.
I just follow established, legitimate news outlets on FB.  If there's a story I want to follow in real time, or it's something that's of too limited interest to show up on FB, I go to one of their websites.

I make it a point to follow media outlets and reporters in my area on my work accounts, so I can quickly communicate with them if need be on an issue such as a road closure. WYMT-TV requires its reporters to be active on Facebook and Twitter, and they are quick to share/retweet breaking news items. Most of those are links to stories on their websites.
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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2018, 06:28:18 PM »

I just noticed that I didn't receive the alert until 14:32. Is this because I was in the 401 area code with an 860 phone?
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abefroman329

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2018, 07:11:46 PM »

I just noticed that I didn't receive the alert until 14:32. Is this because I was in the 401 area code with an 860 phone?
That shouldn’t have mattered.
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jon daly

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2018, 09:29:17 AM »

I wonder if it was my carrier. I am cheap and use Consumer Cellular.
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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2018, 09:53:55 AM »

I was visiting the  Launching Pad in Wilmington. Between my phone, and the phone of the guy working there, the alert tone almost made be deaf.
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abefroman329

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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2018, 12:04:46 PM »

I wonder if it was my carrier. I am cheap and use Consumer Cellular.
That could have been one of the non-participating networks.
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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2018, 06:14:41 PM »

It would surely be a failing of the system if foreign phones in the USA don't get it.

IMO, that depends on whether or not it can be guaranteed foreign visitors won't be charged for receiving an international text message.
The alerts aren't pushed via SMS, but by a separate communications protocol.  Any global-ready device should receive the alert.
He says would have got it, but he was at a Broadway show, and they very specifically told everyone to completely turn off their phones because of the CONELRAD message, so he didn't, nor did anyone else in that theatre audience.
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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2018, 07:01:05 PM »

It would surely be a failing of the system if foreign phones in the USA don't get it.

IMO, that depends on whether or not it can be guaranteed foreign visitors won't be charged for receiving an international text message.
The alerts aren't pushed via SMS, but by a separate communications protocol.  Any global-ready device should receive the alert.
He says would have got it, but he was at a Broadway show, and they very specifically told everyone to completely turn off their phones because of the CONELRAD message, so he didn't, nor did anyone else in that theatre audience.
Airplane Mode, not connected to a WiFi, probably would have sufficed. I’m not 100% sure you can completely shut off an iPhone.
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Re: CONELRAD
« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2018, 07:33:32 PM »

...
Airplane Mode, not connected to a WiFi, probably would have sufficed. I’m not 100% sure you can completely shut off an iPhone.
Drain the battery :P

Yes you can.
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