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Author Topic: Drivers license  (Read 853 times)

1995hoo

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2018, 05:29:47 PM »

Regarding the REAL ID thing JN Winkler mentioned, Virginia gives you a choice—you can bring in the required documents to get a REAL ID–compliant license or you can get a renewal license that isn’t compliant and won’t be valid for boarding planes or the like once the feds start enforcing their little rules. I may not bother with getting the new type because my passport card will do the job.
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J N Winkler

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2018, 05:51:34 PM »

Regarding the dogs, you're talking a pretty strong case for violating 4th amendment rights for saying the dog gave a "positive" when that wasn't actually the case.  I suppose the ruse would be obvious if the officer was still asking you for permission at that point.

The scenario of concern to civil libertarians is the police dog handler somehow signalling the dog to alert even when it does not smell drugs.  I am not aware of any caselaw where police K-9 operators were required to demonstrate that they do not use such signals and do not train their dogs to respond to them.  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Regarding that right turn...I actually visited shift supervisor for Tempe PD later that week and explained that couldn't have made my turn without crossing two lanes of traffic from the parking lot I turned right out of.  I was more surprised they ended up waiving my ticket more than anything, they certainly didn't have to but it saved me a $150 dollar fine and a point on my license.

My hometown PD does blitzes on turn-to-nearest-lane violations.  25 years ago, a pursuit that began with an improper turn snagged the then city manager, in a city-owned car, on his way out of a bar where he had had several drinks with a woman who was not his wife.  (He received three traffic tickets but was not prosecuted for DUI because he blew 0.029, well under the 0.08 threshold for DUI, and Kansas does not have a lower limit for impairment.  He was well-known for his dirigiste tendencies and was not popular with rank-and-file police officers, but the police union was unsuccessful in its attempt to persuade the City Council to fire him under a city policy providing for the termination of city employees who drink and then drive a city-owned car.)

When I am making opposite-sense turns or lane changes separated by less than the required signalling envelope, I usually keep one finger on the turn signal stalk and flip it in the other direction midway through the turn, holding it as necessary to prevent auto-cancellation.  I have never been stopped for making an improper turn, though I suppose a strict constructionist could argue that I should go out of my way (circling the block if necessary) so that I never enter the required signalling envelope without my signal blinking in the direction I intend to turn.

Regarding the REAL ID thing JN Winkler mentioned, Virginia gives you a choice—you can bring in the required documents to get a REAL ID–compliant license or you can get a renewal license that isn’t compliant and won’t be valid for boarding planes or the like once the feds start enforcing their little rules. I may not bother with getting the new type because my passport card will do the job.

Kansas offers the same choice, and there are still states (e.g., Missouri) that refuse to issue REAL ID-compliant licenses.  I just went ahead and brought the paperwork required for REAL ID, using a passport to prove legal presence in the US, a voter registration card to prove address, a 1099 with untitivated SSN to prove SSN (my Social Security card has gone AWOL), and a credit union statement as backup.  It all went down smooth as butter once I found myself in front of an examiner, though there was a document check on arrival and the clerk grumbled about my using a passport instead of a birth certificate and a 1099 instead of a Social Security card.

What really burns me is that with all of this hassle for REAL ID, Kansas still does not offer EDLs as an option, which leaves me without a WHTI-compliant document when my passport expires.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 06:07:09 PM by J N Winkler »
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abefroman329

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2018, 08:30:38 PM »

Regarding the dogs, you're talking a pretty strong case for violating 4th amendment rights for saying the dog gave a "positive" when that wasn't actually the case.  I suppose the ruse would be obvious if the officer was still asking you for permission at that point.

The scenario of concern to civil libertarians is the police dog handler somehow signalling the dog to alert even when it does not smell drugs.  I am not aware of any caselaw where police K-9 operators were required to demonstrate that they do not use such signals and do not train their dogs to respond to them.  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
As I understand it, the concern is that sniffer dogs are unintentionally taking cues from their handler. Basically what happens when you’re out walking your dog and you see another dog or person that makes you nervous, and your dog gets aggressive with them. It’s still a massive probable cause issue, if true, but it’s not as bad as what you described.

And frankly, what makes me far more likely to cooperate with LEOs is the fact that they have guns and, as a group, they’re very rarely indicted by a grand jury on manslaughter or murder charges, let alone convicted.
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vdeane

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2018, 12:18:09 AM »

Plus the whole "nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" thing is unfortunately very pervasive in modern society, to the point where it's starting to become a legal rationale.

Meanwhile, there's this: https://police4aqi.wordpress.com/2018/06/24/police-retaliation-for-refusing-a-request-to-allow-a-consensual-search/
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jp the roadgeek

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2018, 01:35:03 AM »

CT does offer Real-ID, but does not offer an EDL for border crossing purposes.  The majority of licenses were switched from 4 to 6 years about a decade ago.  Seniors older than 70 have the option to renew on a yearly basis.  All licenses expire on your birthday.   I figured out the formula for the first two digits of the license: All begin with numbers from 01 to 24.  These numbers correspond to the month you were born, and whether you were born in an odd or even year.  For example, someone born in June of 1977 would have an 06 as the first two numbers, while someone born in October of 1992 would have a 22.  I got my license about 8 months after I turned 16, but the law back then allowed 16 year olds to drive as a trainee if they were with a driver who was licensed for an extended period of time (ie, your parents).  I must have driven a couple thousand miles before I got mine.   Now, there is a graduated system with provisional restrictions that didn’t exist when I was 16, such as only with experienced drivers or not at night.  Licenses can be renewed at DMV or at a few AAA offices in most instances.  I stress most instances because AAA made my mother go to a DMV office once because there was a truck driver with the same name who appeared in a national database as having a medical CDL suspension.  They won’t tell you why at AAA, but I got it out of the DMV worker as to why.  And now CT has gone to snail mail to send you you license.  Used to be that you would wait five minutes after you had your picture taken and you’d get it.  Now, they give you a temporary license and mail it to you. In typical CT fashion, DMV created another level of bureaucracy and gave the ailing USPS a bone.   

Vehicle registrations are good for 2 years.  CT did away with stickers on the plates themselves then went to window decals for a while, but with the latest plates and with license plate reader technology, law enforcement can find expired tags just by holding up the reader as you drive past them.  Emissions testing is also good for 2 years, with exemptions for newer cars, classic cars, and diesel powered vehicles.  The emissions test is usually due a couple months after the registration.
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abefroman329

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2018, 07:19:13 AM »

Do any states that don’t border Canada or Mexico offer EDLs? I can’t see why they would, since they’re only valid at land crossings, right?
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2018, 10:59:40 AM »

Do any states that don’t border Canada or Mexico offer EDLs? I can’t see why they would, since they’re only valid at land crossings, right?

EDLs are AFAIK only available in MI, MN, NY, VT, WA, BC, MB, and ON.   I've got to believe demand for EDLs is extremely limited; folks who cross the border enough to justify the extra time/expense of getting an EDL would frequently be better-served by getting NEXUS, or probably can save a few bucks by getting a passport card.

Regarding CT's change to mailing drivers licenses -- the change was made to combat identity fraud, as there were instances of people going in and getting a DL or ID in someone else's name.

I renewed my CT DL this year.   The AAA office gave me a printout copy of my new DL to use as a temporary license, and the card itself arrived in snail mail 3 days later.  Easy-peasy, especially as compared to the rigmarole I went through at my prior renewal:  I had to go into the DMV hellhole because (as I found out at the DMV) I pinged twice:  someone else has the same name/birthdate in the CT DMV database, and also because my wife has a nearly identical name and same address.

The bit of CT DMV silliness that annoys me is that you have to have a CT DL or ID to do business with the DMV.  My wife doesn't drive, and had been doing OK just a passport card as ID until we bought our current car.  I wanted to have her on the title (in case something happens to me, less legal fuss)....but DMV refused until she got state ID.
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kphoger

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2018, 11:21:17 AM »

Do any states that don’t border Canada or Mexico offer EDLs? I can’t see why they would, since they’re only valid at land crossings, right?

Sea crossing as well.  I wonder about cruise lines travelling between non-border states.
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abefroman329

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2018, 12:58:56 PM »

Do any states that don’t border Canada or Mexico offer EDLs? I can’t see why they would, since they’re only valid at land crossings, right?

Sea crossing as well.  I wonder about cruise lines travelling between non-border states.
The only one I’m aware of is the ferry from Florida to Bimini.
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kphoger

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2018, 01:21:13 PM »



Do any states that don’t border Canada or Mexico offer EDLs? I can’t see why they would, since they’re only valid at land crossings, right?

Sea crossing as well.  I wonder about cruise lines travelling between non-border states.

The only one I’m aware of is the ferry from Florida to Bimini.

There are cruise lines operating from Florida to Cozumel.

Quote from: Carnival Cruises Passport Requirements
Carnival Cruise Lines strongly recommends all of our guests travel with a valid passport. However, as of June 1, 2009, U.S. citizens embarking on a cruise that both originates and terminates at the same U.S. port are not required to have a passport, but will need proof of citizenship such as an original or certified copy of a birth certificate, a certificate of naturalization, a passport card, an enhanced driver’s license () as well as a government-issued photo ID. Children are also required to bring proof of citizenship, and if 16 and over, a photo ID is also required.
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vdeane

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2018, 11:06:44 PM »

EDLs are AFAIK only available in MI, MN, NY, VT, WA, BC, MB, and ON.   I've got to believe demand for EDLs is extremely limited; folks who cross the border enough to justify the extra time/expense of getting an EDL would frequently be better-served by getting NEXUS, or probably can save a few bucks by getting a passport card.
NY's EDL costs only $30 more than the regular licence, is valid for the same 8 year term, and the only additional documentation is the same stuff required for Real ID, so it's a pretty good deal.  Would a passport card be cheaper?  Marginally (same $30, but for 10 years instead of 8), but of course there's more waiting and bureaucracy for that.  NEXUS, of course, has a LOT more bureaucracy and hassle than either of those, is only valid for 5 years, and costs more, so probably only really worth it if crossing multiple times a year.

Oddly enough, I've found that I've gotten less questioning when using my EDL than my passport at the border, at least on the US side (no difference entering Canada).  I think it's because CBP likes to go through every single page, whereas CBSA doesn't seem to do that.
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1995hoo

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2018, 09:06:29 PM »

Regarding mailing your license, Virginia has been doing that for several years. I last renewed in 2013 and they mailed me mine. They did not void my old license because it had six weeks of validity left at the time. I kind of liked that because my old license was unrestricted, whereas my renewal (current one now) requires that I wear corrective lenses (glasses or contacts). Having my old one for those six weeks ensured that during that period I could have legally driven without glasses had I needed to do so (say, if my glasses got broken).
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RobbieL2415

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2018, 10:57:27 PM »

I've renewed my license once to a REALID one and it was a piece of cake. No hassle by the DMV rep.  I think a lot of the shit the DMV gets it because people go in there unprepared and play dumb. And the staff try ridiculously hard to make sure everything's in line and every employee I've dealt with has been very professional.

Switching gears, I want to just mention NY state's weird learner permit reciprocity rules.  Permit holders from any state are NOT allowed on public roads through parks within NYC's five boroughs, on any TriBorough B&T bridges or tunnels, and on the Hutch, Saw Mill, Cross County and Taconic State Parkways. The latter ONLY applies within Westchester County and does not include the Bronx River, Henry Hudson, Sprain Brook Parkways. So I guess in Valhalla you have to use NY 22 as your bypass.
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wanderer2575

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2018, 11:30:08 PM »

Regarding the REAL ID thing JN Winkler mentioned, Virginia gives you a choice—you can bring in the required documents to get a REAL ID–compliant license or you can get a renewal license that isn’t compliant and won’t be valid for boarding planes or the like once the feds start enforcing their little rules. I may not bother with getting the new type because my passport card will do the job.

Michigan allows the same choice, and there is no extra fee for a REAL ID-compliant license or ID card.  It wasn't really necessary since I hold a passport, but I got one so that on the rare occasion that I fly domestically I won't also have to carry my passport.

Michigan also requires license renewal every four years, but only every other one can be done online.  I renewed online when my license last expired in 2014, so I had to go to a Secretary of State office for this year's renewal to have the cursory vision test done and have a new photo taken.  You can die of old age waiting in line at an SoS office, but many offices now allow you to schedule an appointment.  I did that this year, and was in and out in less than 20 minutes.
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J N Winkler

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Re: Drivers license
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2018, 12:07:31 PM »

Regarding mailing your license, Virginia has been doing that for several years. I last renewed in 2013 and they mailed me mine.

My understanding is that most if not all states that issue REAL ID licenses now produce the physical licenses at a central location and mail them to the holders because, although the REAL ID implementation regulations do not prohibit on-the-spot production outright, they impose requirements for physical security of the production facilities that are extremely expensive to meet at multiple DMV offices.

Different states also have had different pathways to REAL ID compliance.  Kansas, for example, has been issuing REAL ID-compliant licenses since mid-2017.  On the other hand, Minnesota has been doing so only since October 1, 2018, apparently because EDLs had already been available for several years and thus US citizens living in Minnesota already had an option for boarding airplanes and entering secure federal facilities.  (EDLs cost more to produce than ordinary or REAL ID-compliant licenses because they have RFID chips similar to those now used in passport books and cards.)

Michigan also requires license renewal every four years, but only every other one can be done online.  I renewed online when my license last expired in 2014, so I had to go to a Secretary of State office for this year's renewal to have the cursory vision test done and have a new photo taken.  You can die of old age waiting in line at an SoS office, but many offices now allow you to schedule an appointment.  I did that this year, and was in and out in less than 20 minutes.

The licensing authority in Kansas, the Division of Vehicles of the Kansas Department of Revenue, does not use appointments as a rationing mechanism.  As a result, although Wichita has three driver licensing offices in the metro area, people approach driver license renewal with the mindset that they should go to Twin Lakes (the oldest and most well-known office) and be prepared to wait three hours or more.  There is now a Q-Less system that allows customers to sign up online, but it is useless for holding your place in queue while you travel to your chosen licensing office because you are not actually inserted in the queue until you show up and check in.  On the other hand, it has real-time waiting times at each office, so it is useful for spotting the least backlogged office.

The last time I renewed, I did so at the Derby office, which is about 40 minutes' drive from me.  I was in front of an agent within five minutes.  Since Twin Lakes is 10 minutes' drive from me and had a waiting time of about 90 minutes, I would have finished the errand within the same timeframe if I had gone to Twin Lakes.  However, I feel I came out ahead because I infinitely prefer to drive 80 minutes total to wait less than five minutes rather than to sit at attention for 90 minutes waiting for my name or number to be called.
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