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Author Topic: Changing attitudes towards expelled students  (Read 2288 times)

bandit957

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Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« on: January 30, 2019, 11:04:00 AM »

Why have attitudes changed towards students who were expelled from school?

I'm talking about within the United States. I know there's folks from other countries who read this, but my observations are based on what I've seen in the good ol' U.S. and A.

In my youth - 1980s and early 1990s - to be expelled from a school was frowned upon by some, but most people saw it as a sign of healthy rebellion. People recognized that the school was usually wrong. I used to write about my experiences with being kicked out of school, and everyone would cheer me on.

But in the mid-'90s, things changed. After that, nobody wanted to hear stories that glamorized expelled students anymore. It's not just my perception caused by me entering the adult world and being around more mature people. It's not just because I got Internet and was exposed to people who were less open-minded anyway. This was an actual societal change. I worked at the library before this happened and had co-workers who were much older, and they didn't hold my school experiences against me. When I wrote about it for a college class, even the professor was amused by it. But after that, everything went to hell.

Why? What is it about the mid-'90s that just completely turned society backwards? After that, I felt like I was living in a totalitarian police state.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 11:39:41 AM »

Kids are more serious about school nowadays.
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abefroman329

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 11:53:47 AM »

I really have no idea what you're talking about.  When we moved to GA, there was a phenomenon of teenagers dropping out of HS to attend a night vo-tech school, made more convenient that you were considered a legal adult in GA when you turned 17 and could get emancipated from your parents (and be able to do things like drop out of school without obtaining their permission), but they were starting to crack down on that practice.

Could also have something to do with the fact that there were a lot more jobs that didn't require a diploma (or a college degree, for that matter) a generation or two ago.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 12:02:44 PM »

I really have no idea what you're talking about.  When we moved to GA, there was a phenomenon of teenagers dropping out of HS to attend a night vo-tech school, made more convenient that you were considered a legal adult in GA when you turned 17 and could get emancipated from your parents (and be able to do things like drop out of school without obtaining their permission), but they were starting to crack down on that practice.

Could also have something to do with the fact that there were a lot more jobs that didn't require a diploma (or a college degree, for that matter) a generation or two ago.
It really depends where you live.
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bandit957

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2019, 12:05:31 PM »

I really have no idea what you're talking about.  When we moved to GA, there was a phenomenon of teenagers dropping out of HS to attend a night vo-tech school, made more convenient that you were considered a legal adult in GA when you turned 17 and could get emancipated from your parents (and be able to do things like drop out of school without obtaining their permission), but they were starting to crack down on that practice.

Could also have something to do with the fact that there were a lot more jobs that didn't require a diploma (or a college degree, for that matter) a generation or two ago.
It really depends where you live.

For me, it was northern Kentucky. Our schools here always talked about how they "don't put up with any foolishness", yet when any serious wrongdoing occurs, they're always the first to blame the victims and rally around the perpetrators.
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TheHighwayMan394

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 12:28:56 PM »

That seems to be similar everywhere. I always observed that schools won’t do anything about bullies until the victim gets fed up and lands a punch on their abusers, and then the school jumps in to protect bullies and punish the student for defending themselves.
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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 12:47:10 PM »

That seems to be similar everywhere. I always observed that schools won’t do anything about bullies until the victim gets fed up and lands a punch on their abusers, and then the school jumps in to protect bullies and punish the student for defending themselves.
Or they promote some feelgood horseshit that doesn't actually do anything to address the problem, like #WalkUpNotOut.
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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 05:17:47 PM »

It could be because expulsion has become a lot less common over time. I can't think of a single student getting expelled from my school from 1996 to 2007.  Because it was so rare, kids talked about getting expelled as though it were the death penalty; you must have had to do something really, really bad to get kicked out.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 05:19:46 PM »

It could be because expulsion has become a lot less common over time. I can't think of a single student getting expelled from my school from 1996 to 2007.  Because it was so rare, kids talked about getting expelled as though it were the death penalty; you must have had to do something really, really bad to get kicked out.
Yeah, I thought expulsion was something you only got if you like physically assaulted someone or something.
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Big John

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 05:42:30 PM »

It could be because expulsion has become a lot less common over time. I can't think of a single student getting expelled from my school from 1996 to 2007.  Because it was so rare, kids talked about getting expelled as though it were the death penalty; you must have had to do something really, really bad to get kicked out.
Like 50 years ago, male students were expelled for having their hair too long. Now it is reserved for serious offensives.
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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2019, 06:39:47 PM »

Piecing together your posts, I feel as if there's a whole series of dangerous incidents that which happened decades ago which weren't explained to the right people at the right time. And that must suck, to be honest.

But...Nobody cares what you (or anyone else) did in high school. Why should anyone care about your situation over 25 years ago? Everyone else has moved on as an adult, and nobody cares much about how exciting your specific situations were because it's impossible to relate. The echoes of the past are silent and the individual actions of history are all but forgotten.

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2019, 06:50:39 PM »

I wonder if students don't get expelled as often because there is no parent left at home anymore during the day.
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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 07:28:46 PM »

Today I heard about an expelled kid for the first time in my life. I'd say it's fairly uncommon nowadays, usually schools are just pushing detentions and suspensions.
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formulanone

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2019, 07:47:59 PM »

Today I heard about an expelled kid for the first time in my life. I'd say it's fairly uncommon nowadays, usually schools are just pushing detentions and suspensions.

My wife teaches in a public school, and says that the only speedy expulsion process requires an arrest of the student. I'm sure it's going to vary a bit between school districts, and it all begins with an administration that cares to move the paperwork along the right channels.

There's one or two troublesome kids in her school, and she mumbles that expelling the student takes months for just being a bad kid, as opposed to breaking the law.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 07:50:00 PM by formulanone »
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2019, 09:27:34 PM »

I have never seen/heard of a student getting expelled.
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Scott5114

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2019, 09:45:19 PM »

I wonder if students don't get expelled as often because there is no parent left at home anymore during the day.

My guess is it's part of a broader societal shift toward putting increasing weight on education. If a kid is expelled, where do they go after that? Functionally, expelling a student is making it more likely that they'll be unemployable in adulthood, which could lead to them relying on social programs that a high school graduate wouldn't. So there's a public policy interest in keeping as many kids in school as possible, and therefore on expelling as few as possible.

The only compelling modern reason I could think of for expelling a student is if they consistently present such an overwhelming hazard to themselves, school staff, or other students that they have to be separated from the school. That would have to be beyond mundane bullying and into "brings weapons to school" sort of territory.
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1995hoo

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2019, 09:53:27 PM »

My mom, who is now retired but who taught for many years in the Fairfax County Public Schools, said that in Fairfax County, "expelling" a kid normally means he's expelled from that particular school and will be sent to a different FCPS school going forward. She wasn't sure what would get a kid kicked out of the entire FCPS system. I assume things like bringing guns to school might qualify.
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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2019, 10:14:25 PM »

The idea that the rate of expulsions has decreased over time is generally not true, the number of students expelled per year doubled over the period 1974-1998: https://books.google.com/books?id=BzacO6Vl1tQC&lpg=PA13&pg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false.
I would expect this increase further, as recent school shooting events have increased the likelihood that a generally violent student (or someone who brings a gun to school) will be expelled.

My mom, who is now retired but who taught for many years in the Fairfax County Public Schools, said that in Fairfax County, "expelling" a kid normally means he's expelled from that particular school and will be sent to a different FCPS school going forward. She wasn't sure what would get a kid kicked out of the entire FCPS system. I assume things like bringing guns to school might qualify.
It seems to vary from district to district. My school district (also in VA) sent students who were expelled (or darn near about to be) to external regional charter schools which focused on discipline in an attempt to "straighten them out". A specific example for my area was Enterprise Academy, which was idealized by my cohort as essentially some sort of child prison. My understanding is/was that these students would be eligible for re-admittance after 1 year if they behaved well enough.
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bandit957

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2019, 11:14:40 PM »

In my case, when I got kicked out of the Campbell County Schools, that was it. I was kicked out of the whole system, not just one school. I probably could have fought them when I was old enough, but I didn't have the energy or an incentive to do so.

But somehow, I was invited to my 20-year reunion. It turns out they kept me on the class list just so they could get state money.

The offense that got me kicked out was walking out of gym class in 7th grade. I walked out because the teacher hit me with a ping-pong paddle.
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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2019, 09:17:53 AM »

In my case, when I got kicked out of the Campbell County Schools, that was it. I was kicked out of the whole system, not just one school. I probably could have fought them when I was old enough, but I didn't have the energy or an incentive to do so.

But somehow, I was invited to my 20-year reunion. It turns out they kept me on the class list just so they could get state money.

The offense that got me kicked out was walking out of gym class in 7th grade. I walked out because the teacher hit me with a ping-pong paddle.
Don't they have to give you some sort of education?
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bandit957

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 09:47:20 AM »

In my case, when I got kicked out of the Campbell County Schools, that was it. I was kicked out of the whole system, not just one school. I probably could have fought them when I was old enough, but I didn't have the energy or an incentive to do so.

But somehow, I was invited to my 20-year reunion. It turns out they kept me on the class list just so they could get state money.

The offense that got me kicked out was walking out of gym class in 7th grade. I walked out because the teacher hit me with a ping-pong paddle.
Don't they have to give you some sort of education?

I think after I was kicked out, they just considered it my parents' responsibility to find another school.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 09:51:11 AM »

In my case, when I got kicked out of the Campbell County Schools, that was it. I was kicked out of the whole system, not just one school. I probably could have fought them when I was old enough, but I didn't have the energy or an incentive to do so.

But somehow, I was invited to my 20-year reunion. It turns out they kept me on the class list just so they could get state money.

The offense that got me kicked out was walking out of gym class in 7th grade. I walked out because the teacher hit me with a ping-pong paddle.
Don't they have to give you some sort of education?

I think after I was kicked out, they just considered it my parents' responsibility to find another school.
But schooling is mandatory up till 16 so I thought that the state would have to find one.
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bandit957

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2019, 09:57:59 AM »

But schooling is mandatory up till 16 so I thought that the state would have to find one.

They're very inconsistent. I wasn't allowed to attend Campbell County Schools, but I also wasn't allowed to attend another public school without Campbell County's permission.

I was told to just live with it, because that was the consequences for acting up in 7th grade.

I was told this even though one of the biggest troublemakers in the Campbell County Schools didn't even live in the school district, but they let him go to school there anyway.
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bandit957

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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2019, 10:08:29 AM »

Also, my middle school was right up the street from a home for troubled boys. Some of those kids didn't live in Campbell County, but the school accepted them anyway.

Probably most weren't real troublemakers. A lot of them came from broken homes, or their parents had died. Most didn't cause any real trouble at school. But I remember one who did. He was sent to this home because he was trouble back home. The rumor was that he tried to burn down his old school. But the Campbell County Schools tolerated him, and when other kids' parents complained about him starting trouble, the school said that disciplining him would violate his rights - even though he didn't even live in our district.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 10:10:34 AM by bandit957 »
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Re: Changing attitudes towards expelled students
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2019, 11:00:54 AM »

Also, my middle school was right up the street from a home for troubled boys. Some of those kids didn't live in Campbell County, but the school accepted them anyway.

Probably most weren't real troublemakers. A lot of them came from broken homes, or their parents had died. Most didn't cause any real trouble at school. But I remember one who did. He was sent to this home because he was trouble back home. The rumor was that he tried to burn down his old school. But the Campbell County Schools tolerated him, and when other kids' parents complained about him starting trouble, the school said that disciplining him would violate his rights - even though he didn't even live in our district.
I don't get much of your story. So you got expelled but this other kid didn't? What?
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