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Author Topic: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be  (Read 1505 times)

debragga

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2019, 05:34:45 PM »

I-20 east from Dallas is signed to Shreveport, Tyler or Longview could be signed there instead
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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2019, 09:50:53 PM »

Provo, - UT I-15 South: I can understand why Provo isn't used for I-15 North in Vegas, since Salt Lake City is much more well-known. However, Ogden is used for I-15 North. I think if they are going to use Ogden for I-15 North, they should use Provo for I-15 South. The only reasons I could see Ogden being used and not Provo is that Ogden is the largest city on I-15 north of Salt Lake City and there's a junction with I-84 in nearby Riverdale. Still, it feels a little odd seeing Provo being left out, as it's larger than Ogden. It should at least be co-signed with Las Vegas.

Couldn't agree more. There are a few signs at entrance ramps listing Provo as the southbound control, but I'd think that should be extended to the freeway mainlines as well.

Here's the thing about Ogden, though. I'd assume Pocatello would be used instead of Ogden, but there's an even split of 15/84 traffic at Tremonton, which might call for a Twin Falls or Boise dual-control with Pocatello. Also, Idaho Falls is bigger than Pocatello and might be used instead. It gets a little bit messy, which may factor into why Ogden is the northbound control from SLC.

Plus the fact that Ogden is bigger than all of those (besides Boise, which is definitely a stretch for an I-15 control city N of SLC in my opinion). As opposed to Las Vegas, which is far larger than anything else south of Salt Lake, and there's no major highway diversions south of there to the extent of the I-15/I-84 split. Sure, some people split off to US-6 to head towards Green River and Colorado, but that's a relatively small percentage. That said, Provo still should be signed within the metro area, IMO.

I'm always a proponent of using 2 control cities, one for more local/regional mid-sized cities, and then one far off major city. So south from Salt Lake would be "Provo/Las Vegas", then south of Provo "St George/Las Vegas", for example. And north could be "Ogden/Boise" maybe, then North of Ogden "Pocatello/Boise" or "Twin Falls/Boise" (a bit tough to choose due to the multiplex). Though this does not seem to be a common practice.

The control cities in that area are actually quite interesting. At the 86/84 split, the I-84 eastbound control is a dual Ogden/Salt Lake, probably because SLC itself isn't on I-84. From Pocatello, the I-15 south control is Salt Lake, with no mention at all of Ogden. But at the 15/84 merge in Tremonton, the S/E control from both 15 and 84 is a dual Ogden/Salt Lake. And at the US 91 southern terminus, there's no mention of Salt Lake at all -- just Ogden.

It's also worth noting that the signage at the south end of US 91 lists Twin Falls as the I-84 westbound control -- at the 15/84 split, that control is Boise instead.
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mrsman

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2019, 08:43:16 AM »

The decision was made a decade ago to make McKinney a control city on northbound US 75 out of Dallas, even though Plano was and is a bigger city by far.
Is Plano a suburb? That might be why.
I think McKinney is the county seat of Collin County

I've never understood why it matters whether something is a county seat or not, and I still don't.

IMO it's a factor (but not necessarily the main factor) because a county seat is likely to be more of a destination than another city within the county.  The seat will have at least a small civic center with courthouse and county administration buildings and the like.

In Orange County, CA I-5's control city is Santa Ana (county seat) and not Anaheim, even though Anaheim is larger.  Even odder, there are now more attractions in Anaheim than Santa Ana, such that Anaheim would likely be more of a destination than Santa Ana (such as Disneyland, stadium, arena, convention center) yet the control city hasn't been changed.

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TheHighwayMan394

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2019, 12:34:58 PM »

The decision was made a decade ago to make McKinney a control city on northbound US 75 out of Dallas, even though Plano was and is a bigger city by far.
Is Plano a suburb? That might be why.
I think McKinney is the county seat of Collin County

I've never understood why it matters whether something is a county seat or not, and I still don't.

I think it boils down to how county administrations outside the Northeast tend to have a much bigger say in daily life at the local level.
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thspfc

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2019, 02:34:03 PM »

Stevens Point could easily be the control city for I-39 NB at the split near Portage, but it's secondary to Wausau.
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roadman65

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2019, 10:09:24 PM »

In New Jersey you have on I-80 the Delaware Water Gap used west of Paterson, but Dover is overlooked but some signs use Netcong which is not a big city (I think NJ classifies it as a borough).

Florida you have Lake City NB on I-75 from Ocala yet Gainesville is a fairly decent size city to be used and is overlooked.

Also in Florida you have then Naples on I-75 south from Tampa that overlooks Fort Myers. Then Daytona is used on I-95 north from West Palm Beach but once in Brevard County it switches to Jacksonville long before you arrive in Daytona.  However, some of the newer interchanges in Brevard County are using Daytona Beach now, so some improvement there.

Missouri and Tulsa being used in St. Louis as you do have Springfield and Joplin both that could be used there.  However someone on here said once outside St. Louis Metro Rolla is used and then Springfield, before  Joplin and Tulsa is then again seen in Joplin.

Then I always hated that New York is used over Newark in New Jersey, but understand why being NYC being our nation's largest city.  Many roads head through Newark first before you enter New York.
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Verlanka

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2019, 07:12:09 AM »

Florida you have Lake City NB on I-75 from Ocala yet Gainesville is a fairly decent size city to be used and is overlooked.

Also in Florida you have then Naples on I-75 south from Tampa that overlooks Fort Myers. Then Daytona is used on I-95 north from West Palm Beach but once in Brevard County it switches to Jacksonville long before you arrive in Daytona.  However, some of the newer interchanges in Brevard County are using Daytona Beach now, so some improvement there.

I understand Lake City being used since this is where I-10 and I-75 meet. However, I think I-75 south in Tampa should use Sarasota or Bradenton, followed by Fort Myers and Naples.
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nexus73

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2019, 10:15:06 AM »

Proceeding east of I-5 in Springfield (SR 126), Albany (US 20) and Salem (SR 22), the control city mentioned on any I-5 signage relating to those highways should be Bend, which is about 100K for population.  ODOT does not do well with designating control cities for highways/freeways coming off of I-5.  Little or no mention is made of Astoria, Seaside, Tillamook, Lincoln City, Newport, Coos Bay/North Bend, Coquille, Bandon or any place in Curry County. 

This combines with not doing well for signing major out of state cities to make one feel like they are in a bubble when driving in Oregon.  WA, CA, ID and NV all let you know more about the Really Important Farther Off Places than Oregon does.

Rick
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 06:23:05 PM by nexus73 »
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Jmiles32

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2019, 11:06:26 AM »

Definitely Harrisonburg for I-81 in Virginia.

To a lesser degree, I wouldn't mind seeing Charlottesville being used on I-64 coming from I-81 and Fredricksburg used more along I-95.

 
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pdx-wanderer

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2019, 05:58:02 AM »

Provo, - UT I-15 South: I can understand why Provo isn't used for I-15 North in Vegas, since Salt Lake City is much more well-known. However, Ogden is used for I-15 North. I think if they are going to use Ogden for I-15 North, they should use Provo for I-15 South. The only reasons I could see Ogden being used and not Provo is that Ogden is the largest city on I-15 north of Salt Lake City and there's a junction with I-84 in nearby Riverdale. Still, it feels a little odd seeing Provo being left out, as it's larger than Ogden. It should at least be co-signed with Las Vegas.

Couldn't agree more. There are a few signs at entrance ramps listing Provo as the southbound control, but I'd think that should be extended to the freeway mainlines as well.

Here's the thing about Ogden, though. I'd assume Pocatello would be used instead of Ogden, but there's an even split of 15/84 traffic at Tremonton, which might call for a Twin Falls or Boise dual-control with Pocatello. Also, Idaho Falls is bigger than Pocatello and might be used instead. It gets a little bit messy, which may factor into why Ogden is the northbound control from SLC.

Plus the fact that Ogden is bigger than all of those (besides Boise, which is definitely a stretch for an I-15 control city N of SLC in my opinion). As opposed to Las Vegas, which is far larger than anything else south of Salt Lake, and there's no major highway diversions south of there to the extent of the I-15/I-84 split. Sure, some people split off to US-6 to head towards Green River and Colorado, but that's a relatively small percentage. That said, Provo still should be signed within the metro area, IMO.

I'm always a proponent of using 2 control cities, one for more local/regional mid-sized cities, and then one far off major city. So south from Salt Lake would be "Provo/Las Vegas", then south of Provo "St George/Las Vegas", for example. And north could be "Ogden/Boise" maybe, then North of Ogden "Pocatello/Boise" or "Twin Falls/Boise" (a bit tough to choose due to the multiplex). Though this does not seem to be a common practice.

The control cities in that area are actually quite interesting. At the 86/84 split, the I-84 eastbound control is a dual Ogden/Salt Lake, probably because SLC itself isn't on I-84. From Pocatello, the I-15 south control is Salt Lake, with no mention at all of Ogden. But at the 15/84 merge in Tremonton, the S/E control from both 15 and 84 is a dual Ogden/Salt Lake. And at the US 91 southern terminus, there's no mention of Salt Lake at all -- just Ogden.

It's also worth noting that the signage at the south end of US 91 lists Twin Falls as the I-84 westbound control -- at the 15/84 split, that control is Boise instead.

Then, once crossing into Idaho on 84, Twin Falls takes over as the control city and Boise doesn’t re appear until after the 86 junction.

Boise, despite not being on I-15, I think would fit well with Las Vegas, Reno and Cheyenne, as it’s a fast growing capital and is much larger than Ogden, Pocatello or Idaho falls.  Boise not being on I-15 doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to me - heck in Vegas Salt Lake is the only long distance control city that’s actually on its route! Ogden would go better as a control with Provo, Park city, and Wendover.
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US 89

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2019, 04:57:07 PM »

Boise, despite not being on I-15, I think would fit well with Las Vegas, Reno and Cheyenne, as it’s a fast growing capital and is much larger than Ogden, Pocatello or Idaho falls.  Boise not being on I-15 doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to me - heck in Vegas Salt Lake is the only long distance control city that’s actually on its route! Ogden would go better as a control with Provo, Park city, and Wendover.

Here's the thing though. As it turns out, the traffic split at Tremonton is almost 50/50 for I-15 and I-84, with a very slight edge to I-15. Even with the Vegas controls that aren't actually on the routes involved, they are at least where most of the traffic on those routes is going. Half of I-15's northbound load isn't going anywhere near Boise.

To my knowledge, Boise has never been used as an I-15 control city from Salt Lake. On the other hand, Pocatello has been used as a dual control with Ogden. The corresponding southbound control at that time was a dual Provo/Las Vegas, with even a couple instances of Los Angeles!

I really like the idea of a dual control, now that you mention that, but I just don't see Utah suddenly jumping on that idea. The only place I'm aware of UDOT doing such a thing is the 80/215/Foothill interchange, where the I-80 eastbound control is Park City/Cheyenne, as well as on some old signage at the I-15/70 interchange.
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pdx-wanderer

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2019, 06:27:15 PM »

Quote
To my knowledge, Boise has never been used as an I-15 control city from Salt Lake. On the other hand, Pocatello has been used as a dual control with Ogden. The corresponding southbound control at that time was a dual Provo/Las Vegas, with even a couple instances of Los Angeles!

Wow, that account has some great old Utah pictures! I remember seeing an old picture of Echo junction, where I-84 used to have a control of Portland, and I-80 had San Francisco! Fitting with the Los Angeles control. Today there are still some mileage signs for Reno up there but no sign of San Francisco (not to mention Sacramento).

I figured Salt Lake - Boise would be a more popular route than it is. Perhaps that's because it's always been the way I have gone.  :) At the state line, I-15 has quite a bit more traffic than I-84. On another note, i see that I-15 actually exits onto itself  at Tremonton. If you ignore route designations, maybe Boise would be the better control!

Using Ogden does avoid the problem of using a dual control, but it's always struck me a odd to use a more regional control with three long distance ones that are 400+ miles away.
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Flint1979

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2019, 07:57:47 PM »

Kalamazoo on I-94 in Michigan

Good idea, but so many people in Detroit would be lost.  Their knowledge of West Michigan is woefully inadequate.

I remember at lunch one day, someone was talking about going to Grand Rapids for the weekend.  Another one at the table told her to remember not to drink the water.  "That's Flint!" And the ignorant one replied, "Same difference."  I wanted to go over to her and tell her that where she was sitting (in Dearborn) she was closer to Flint than her friend would be in Grand Rapids.
In Detroit the westbound control city should be Ann Arbor.
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Flint1979

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2019, 08:02:11 PM »

The decision was made a decade ago to make McKinney a control city on northbound US 75 out of Dallas, even though Plano was and is a bigger city by far.
Is Plano a suburb? That might be why.
I think McKinney is the county seat of Collin County

I've never understood why it matters whether something is a county seat or not, and I still don't.

IMO it's a factor (but not necessarily the main factor) because a county seat is likely to be more of a destination than another city within the county.  The seat will have at least a small civic center with courthouse and county administration buildings and the like.

In Orange County, CA I-5's control city is Santa Ana (county seat) and not Anaheim, even though Anaheim is larger.  Even odder, there are now more attractions in Anaheim than Santa Ana, such that Anaheim would likely be more of a destination than Santa Ana (such as Disneyland, stadium, arena, convention center) yet the control city hasn't been changed.
Ingham County, MI has Mason as the county seat over Lansing (the state capital).
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Flint1979

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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2019, 08:04:08 PM »

The decision was made a decade ago to make McKinney a control city on northbound US 75 out of Dallas, even though Plano was and is a bigger city by far.
Is Plano a suburb? That might be why.
I think McKinney is the county seat of Collin County

I've never understood why it matters whether something is a county seat or not, and I still don't.
I think it's because the county seat is like the capital of the county most of the time the most important city in the county since it's where the courthouse, jail and the rest of the county offices are located.
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Re: Mid-Sized Cities That Aren't Control Cities, But Maybe Should Be
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2019, 08:16:05 AM »

Definitely Harrisonburg for I-81 in Virginia.

To a lesser degree, I wouldn't mind seeing Charlottesville being used on I-64 coming from I-81 and Fredricksburg used more along I-95.

 

Harrisonburg is an excellent example of a place that has grown significantly since control cities were originally designated and now merits a more prominent role on highway signs.

I’d suggest Fort Myers in Florida for I-75, but it’s so close to Naples (the current control city) that it might not work. On the other hand, Newark and Wilmington, noted further up the thread, are very close to each other as well...
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