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Author Topic: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?  (Read 2868 times)

Takumi

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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 08:43:44 PM »

Automatic. Why make driving more difficult than it has to be?
Because quite a few people enjoy driving for its own sake, and a manual transmission adds another element of skill to that.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 08:59:47 PM »

I prefer manual, especially on a curvy road and over hill-and-dale, but if someone is going to be stuck in a lot of city traffic, I can understand going to an automatic.

Automatics have come a long way in recent years. Many now have 6 gears or more, and aren't widely spaced like the 4-speeds of the past. Manual overrides which don't hesitate, will hold a desired gear up and down the rev range, and paddle/manumatic shifting is an vast improvement over slap-shifting. Speeds between shifts are no longer sluggish, can handle lots of power, and many will come with some sort of "SPORT" or "ECO" switch to switch between driving styles.

There's a few maddening shift-logic autos out there which insist on 3rd gear starts or seem to jump into the highest gear at anything over 25 mph, which is just to there to impress the MPG numbers. Most CVTs are not to my liking, although it seems to work well in some applications, if nothing too racy is asked of them. Some of them seem to have limited lifespans.

I believe the Mazda 5 is the most recent seven passenger vehicle available with a stick though.

Unfortunately, 2015 was the last year for it. My wife wasn't going for that, besides...the GT package with sunroof, 17" wheels, and leather seating was only available in auto. It's not a bad slushbox in that van, to be honest. Dynamically speaking, it's a sharp handler for a minivan, at the expense of $700-800 for tires every 35K miles.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 07:03:55 AM by formulanone »
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2019, 09:14:11 PM »

I should say that it's rather difficult (impossible?) to find a seven-passenger vehicle with a stick shift.
In the US, yeah, probably, unless there’s a seven-passenger SUV with a stick shift that I’m not aware of.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2019, 11:57:04 PM »

Automatic. Why make driving more difficult than it has to be?

Agreed.  The machinery knows when to shift.  I drove my first 500 thousand miles in manuals, and then got an automatic, and I see no reason to go back, and have driven 600 thousand miles in them.  If I need to shift manually for engine braking, I can still do that.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2019, 01:25:38 AM »

Manual, for several reasons:

* it's fun!
* it's cool (ladies love a good handbrake turn)
* I like the control, especially in snow or traffic
* theft-prevention
* more money in the used market (depending on the car and buyer)

My first car was an auto, but I've been driving my manual Golf for almost four years now. Wouldn't have anything else.

Automatic. Why make driving more difficult than it has to be?
Agreed.  The machinery knows when to shift.  I drove my first 500 thousand miles in manuals, and then got an automatic, and I see no reason to go back, and have driven 600 thousand miles in them.  If I need to shift manually for engine braking, I can still do that.

I do wonder if old people like you and HB are at least partly responsible for the death of the manual. Younger people (who prefer manual more frequently than older people) cannot always afford new cars. Those that can afford new cars are usually older, and find that there's no novelty or usefulness to the manual, so they go for the automatic (especially if they prefer higher-specced models which are usually automatic). So, new manual sales continue to decline, despite a (seeming) continued popularity in the used market.

It's sort of like how Gen-X'ers don't like wagons because their parents owned them. As they grew old enough to buy new cars, they didn't buy any wagons (because they weren't cool), so they've started to die out. Now they've suddenly become (at least a little bit) cool again, as there's a whole age group who lived in the SUV-era, who want something that's both practical and fun to drive.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2019, 06:23:52 AM »

Automatic. Why make driving more difficult than it has to be?
Agreed.  The machinery knows when to shift.  I drove my first 500 thousand miles in manuals, and then got an automatic, and I see no reason to go back, and have driven 600 thousand miles in them.  If I need to shift manually for engine braking, I can still do that.
I do wonder if old people like you and HB are at least partly responsible for the death of the manual. Younger people (who prefer manual more frequently than older people) cannot always afford new cars. Those that can afford new cars are usually older, and find that there's no novelty or usefulness to the manual, so they go for the automatic (especially if they prefer higher-specced models which are usually automatic). So, new manual sales continue to decline, despite a (seeming) continued popularity in the used market.

Technological improvements have steadily eliminated any advantage for manual transmissions, even for the older cars on the road which are nearly 2000 or later.

Automatics now have quicker shift times, more gears for better acceleration, quieter and more-efficient highway cruising, shifters that allow manual gear selection in an automatic transmission, and lockup torque converters that improve fuel economy by reducing that irksome slipping when you step on the accelerator, says Seredynski.  Modern automatics have at least six speeds, and many have seven or eight.  Ford is developing a new 10-speed automatic.  It's not clear how a driver would ever shift through that many gears manually.  “People tend not to buy a manual when economy is so much better in [an automatic].”

New automatically controlled continuously variable transmissions (CVTs) have the potential to get even better gas mileage.  “We saw a big drop in manuals when we introduced the CVT with much better fuel-economy,” says McHale.

Automakers are pushing to develop better and better automatic transmissions as they chase every last fraction of mpgs to meet ever tightening Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards passed by the EPA.  Automatics give engineers better control over how every drop of fuel is used in every revolution of the engine, and every molecule of pollution that comes out the tailpipe.  Every stick shift they sell that gets worse gas mileage than an automatic drags down their average fuel economy.  If they don't meet the steadily increasing targets on the way to an average of 39.4 mpg by 2025, automakers face big fines.


https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/best-cars-blog/2016/09/why-are-manual-transmissions-disappearing
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2019, 09:16:09 AM »

Such is quite an about-face from when gas prices started skyrocketing and the original CAFE standards were first imposed during the 1970s.  By 1973, manuals were all but gone from the full-sizes and even on the mid-sizes (most muscle cars in this size segment either morphed into or were replaced by similar-sized personal luxury coupes) it was scarce to find one with a manual... even on a stripped-down, bare-bones model.

When many mid-sizes were downsized or some larger compacts became de-facto mid-sizes a few years later (1978); manual transmissions were re-introduced in this size category for fuel economy reasons.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2019, 11:31:42 AM »

I do wonder if old people like you and HB are at least partly responsible for the death of the manual.

Considering the automatic dates back to about 1940 (although like a lot good innovations, it takes 15 years for full industrial and societal adoption), that's a bit unfair. As people's tastes change over the years, they tend to drive less aggressively and have preferred comfort and convenience. The vehicle-buying public didn't demand it enough, so the market changed, as it always has. It changes at a slow pace for a variety of reasons, the biggest being that idea conception to production is 3-5 years, and keeps going that way because it's harder to turn the ship around (production, part suppliers, other pressures). Technology seems to march well when it makes tasks easier to perform.

The proliferation of SUVs and trucks also haven't helped the manual's cause either; a longer shift throw due to the location of the gear selector to the floorboard has always been clumsy. It's not an easy solution, other than to build a wall-like center console and a seemingly unresponsive shift linkage. As generations have rarely or even never had to use a manual transmission, you can see why it's disappearing. And as a lot of folks on the fence about their transmission choices have told me, "if it makes enough power, I'm fine with automatic". Power outputs and have increased, acceleration times have decreased, shifting times have sped up, and fuel economy differences are negligible, which has negated most of the manual's benefits.

But just as some people want a flip-phone or insist on paper maps, there's going to be some resistance for personal reasons. I enjoy the engagement of a manual transmission and the various manual controls and switch-gear in an increasingly tactile-free world.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 11:41:29 AM by formulanone »
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2019, 11:35:58 AM »

Such is quite an about-face from when gas prices started skyrocketing and the original CAFE standards were first imposed during the 1970s.  By 1973, manuals were all but gone from the full-sizes and even on the mid-sizes (most muscle cars in this size segment either morphed into or were replaced by similar-sized personal luxury coupes) it was scarce to find one with a manual... even on a stripped-down, bare-bones model.

When many mid-sizes were downsized or some larger compacts became de-facto mid-sizes a few years later (1978); manual transmissions were re-introduced in this size category for fuel economy reasons.

Automatics were still pretty primitive in the late 1970's, with most having just three forward speeds and none having lockup in any gear.  Four gears with lockup in top gear was common by 1985, and lockup in forward gears other than top gear was available at least in some models by 1995.  More than four forward gears began appearing on luxury cars in the mid-1990's and was common on midrange vehicles by the mid-2000's.  These are changes I have personally observed as an owner or principal driver of a 1978 Chevrolet Impala, a 1986 Nissan Maxima, a 1994 Saturn SL2, and a 2005 Toyota Camry.

In regard to Jakeroot's comments upthread about changing preferences among older drivers who can afford to buy new drying up the supply of manuals on which younger drivers can learn, the biggest difference I see between now and 20 years ago is the near-disappearance of manuals in daily-driver compacts and subcompacts.  The selling point for manuals in these vehicles was that they were cheap (automatics were a higher-cost option), economical (less fuel consumption), and reliable (less repair liability since the OEM ATFs in use at the time were conventional and sheared down rapidly, with consequent degradation in transmission performance and reduction of service life; current-generation OEM ATFs are semi-synthetic).  Manuals on these cars were a learning opportunity, as Jakeroot points out, but they were never oriented for a pleasure-driving market and some of them were quite bad ergonomically.

I suspect that manuals will continue to be available on cars that are oriented for driving for pleasure, though market share for automatics even on these will increase over time owing to fewer and fewer buyers knowing how to drive manuals.  And on these cars even the automatics will be tuned more toward pleasure driving.  On budget subcompacts the automakers have all kinds of little tricks they use to push you to spend more on a slightly bigger and more capable vehicle:  where transmissions are concerned, one of these is having the automatic downshift directly from 3rd to 1st when drawing up at red lights, which makes it very difficult to modulate braking to roll to a stop without dive.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2019, 04:31:00 PM »

Automatics were still pretty primitive in the late 1970's, with most having just three forward speeds and none having lockup in any gear. 

Manual transmissions in American cars back then (like my 1975 Chevy Nova)  typically had no more than three forward speeds, so they would have been no less "primitive'.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2019, 05:16:56 PM »

I do wonder if old people like you and HB are at least partly responsible for the death of the manual.

Considering the automatic dates back to about 1940 (although like a lot good innovations, it takes 15 years for full industrial and societal adoption), that's a bit unfair. As people's tastes change over the years, they tend to drive less aggressively and have preferred comfort and convenience. The vehicle-buying public didn't demand it enough, so the market changed, as it always has. It changes at a slow pace for a variety of reasons, the biggest being that idea conception to production is 3-5 years, and keeps going that way because it's harder to turn the ship around (production, part suppliers, other pressures). Technology seems to march well when it makes tasks easier to perform.

The proliferation of SUVs and trucks also haven't helped the manual's cause either; a longer shift throw due to the location of the gear selector to the floorboard has always been clumsy. It's not an easy solution, other than to build a wall-like center console and a seemingly unresponsive shift linkage. As generations have rarely or even never had to use a manual transmission, you can see why it's disappearing. And as a lot of folks on the fence about their transmission choices have told me, "if it makes enough power, I'm fine with automatic". Power outputs and have increased, acceleration times have decreased, shifting times have sped up, and fuel economy differences are negligible, which has negated most of the manual's benefits.

But just as some people want a flip-phone or insist on paper maps, there's going to be some resistance for personal reasons. I enjoy the engagement of a manual transmission and the various manual controls and switch-gear in an increasingly tactile-free world.
I say the blame for the death of the manual transmission is equally shared amongst everyone who knows how to drive a manual, but didn't teach the next generation how to drive one.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2019, 06:27:47 PM »

Automatic, although I have driven a manual on a semi truck.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2019, 06:46:10 PM »

Honestly I blame manufacturers as much as consumers- in the U.S. there are very few people who insist on driving a manual- not enough for a dedicated market.

There's a greater share of people who would prefer a manual, but are willing to settle for an automatic if that's what is on the lot with incentives. Those folks killed the manual by being willing to settle for an automatic car out of convenience. There's simply very little incentive for a dealer to stock them, and since dealer lot purchases represent the vast majority of cars bought there's no reason for the manufacturer to build manuals.

Same reason cars are all black, white and silver now- people are willing to buy them even if it isn't their ideal color.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:18:19 PM by corco »
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2019, 07:38:04 PM »

Honestly I blame manufacturers as much as consumers- in the U.S. there are very few people who insist on driving a manual- not enough for a dedicated market.

There's a greater share of people who would prefer a manual, but are willing to settle for an automatic if that's what is on the lot with incentives. Those folks killed the manual by being willing to settle for an automatic car out of convenience. There's simply very little incentive for a dealer to stock them, and since they represent the vast majority of cars bought there's no reason for the manufacturer to build them.

Same reason cars are all black, white and silver now- people are willing to buy them even if it isn't their ideal color.
I’m one of those. My TL wasn’t available with a manual with the options that I wanted, and I was thinking about going to an automatic anyway. Had the option package I wanted been available with a manual, I might have held out for one, but even then they’re very rare.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2019, 09:26:40 PM »

^^^
I guess I didn't make it clear upthread. I 100% understand why "older" people don't buy manuals on technical grounds (worse fuel economy, slower, more cumbersome in traffic), but the manual transmission is no longer a technical decision...it's an emotional one (unless you drive in snow a lot, or climb rocks). Older people don't see it as cool, since it was so common for so many decades, whereas I do, since automatics are by-and-large the norm for my generation. But since the majority of new car buyers are older, more practical people, the manual transmission is quickly dying as it has no modern purpose, other than being fun.

Automatics were still pretty primitive in the late 1970's, with most having just three forward speeds and none having lockup in any gear. 

Manual transmissions in American cars back then (like my 1975 Chevy Nova)  typically had no more than three forward speeds, so they would have been no less "primitive'.

Sure, but they were dimwitted and slow. The manual three-speeds were always better in the fuel economy and speed categories because the automatic transmissions were, more or less, idiotic in their decisions.

I'm sure there were a few good automatics over the years. But largely, they were terrible compared to any equivalent manual gearbox. Though the automatic has been around for 60+ years, without a doubt it has only been perfected in the last 10. Automatics, in my family, have always been the minority choice. My grandparent's decision to buy manuals up until the mid-noughties was primarily based on poor experiences in the 50s and 60s...automatics may have had the same number of forward gears, but they were dimwitted and slow. At least with the manual, you could make the calls yourself.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 09:40:20 PM by jakeroot »
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2019, 09:33:20 PM »

Manual transmissions in American cars back then (like my 1975 Chevy Nova)  typically had no more than three forward speeds, so they would have been no less "primitive'.
Sure, but they were dimwitted and slow. The manual three-speeds were always better in the fuel economy and speed categories because the automatic transmissions were, more or less, idiotic in their decisions.
Maybe your Nova had a great automatic. I'm sure there were a few good automatics over the years. But largely, they were terrible compared to any equivalent manual gearbox. Though the automatic has been around for 60+ years, without a doubt it has only been perfected in the last 10. Automatics, in my family, have always been the minority choice. My grandparent's decision to buy manuals up until the mid-noughties was primarily based on poor experiences in the 50s and 60s...automatics may have had the same number of forward gears, but they were dimwitted and slow. At least with the manual, you could make the calls yourself.

My 1975 Nova (see above) had a 3-speed -manual- transmission, shift lever on the steering column.  It was ok.

Put 305 thousand miles on it, replaced the clutch 4 times.  Never had to service an automatic except fluid changes.
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 09:35:33 PM by Beltway »
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2019, 09:42:23 PM »


My 1975 Nova (see above) had a 3-speed -manual- transmission, shift lever on the steering column.  It was ok.

Put 305 thousand miles on it, replaced the clutch 4 times.  Never had to service an automatic except fluid changes.

Sorry, mis-read. I edited my post.

That's one clutch every 76k miles. That seems excessive.

Many modern dual-clutch automatics are very expensive to maintain. VW's DSG is hilariously expensive to maintain, for example (and one of several reasons I went for the manual).
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2019, 09:51:08 PM »

My 1975 Nova (see above) had a 3-speed -manual- transmission, shift lever on the steering column.  It was ok.
Put 305 thousand miles on it, replaced the clutch 4 times.  Never had to service an automatic except fluid changes.
Sorry, mis-read. I edited my post.
That's one clutch every 76k miles. That seems excessive.

How is that excessive?  For 1977 to 1991.  By what standard?

Many modern dual-clutch automatics are very expensive to maintain. VW's DSG is hilariously expensive to maintain, for example (and one of several reasons I went for the manual).

What is the maintenance other than a fluid and filter replacement every 60,000 miles or so?
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2019, 09:57:45 PM »

My 1975 Nova (see above) had a 3-speed -manual- transmission, shift lever on the steering column.  It was ok.
Put 305 thousand miles on it, replaced the clutch 4 times.  Never had to service an automatic except fluid changes.
Sorry, mis-read. I edited my post.
That's one clutch every 76k miles. That seems excessive.
How is that excessive?  For 1977 to 1991.  By what standard?

Well obviously there's no standard, as manual transmission designs vary from car to car. But most clutches seem to last about 100k miles, from what I've read. Maybe that wasn't the case in 1977.

Many modern dual-clutch automatics are very expensive to maintain. VW's DSG is hilariously expensive to maintain, for example (and one of several reasons I went for the manual).

What is the maintenance other than a fluid and filter replacement every 60,000 miles or so?

$300-$500 every 40k for what you've mentioned.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2019, 10:01:14 PM »

My 1975 Nova (see above) had a 3-speed -manual- transmission, shift lever on the steering column.  It was ok.
Put 305 thousand miles on it, replaced the clutch 4 times.  Never had to service an automatic except fluid changes.
Sorry, mis-read. I edited my post.
That's one clutch every 76k miles. That seems excessive.

How is that excessive?  For 1977 to 1991.  By what standard?

Many modern dual-clutch automatics are very expensive to maintain. VW's DSG is hilariously expensive to maintain, for example (and one of several reasons I went for the manual).

What is the maintenance other than a fluid and filter replacement every 60,000 miles or so?

Lots of modern automatic transmissions do not even feature a dipstick, so a transmission pan service (replace the fluid, filter, and gasket) has to be performed. That seems to take at least two hours. Usually, the interval is much greater than before...I don't think I've seen a recommended 30,000-mile interval for transmissions in a long time; 45-100K is the new norm.

You'll get some that say they to never replace the ATF and others who swear by it.

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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2019, 10:01:25 PM »

That's one clutch every 76k miles. That seems excessive.
How is that excessive?  For 1977 to 1991.  By what standard?
Well obviously there's no standard, as manual transmission designs vary from car to car. But most clutches seem to last about 100k miles, from what I've read. Maybe that wasn't the case in 1977.

I don't know what the stats were back then, but I seemed to do better than most I talked to.

Many modern dual-clutch automatics are very expensive to maintain. VW's DSG is hilariously expensive to maintain, for example (and one of several reasons I went for the manual).
What is the maintenance other than a fluid and filter replacement every 60,000 miles or so?
$300-$500 every 40k for what you've mentioned.

That is hard to imagine.  For my 2016 Buick Lacrosse, about $190 every 60,000 miles.
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jakeroot

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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2019, 10:03:50 PM »

Many modern dual-clutch automatics are very expensive to maintain. VW's DSG is hilariously expensive to maintain, for example (and one of several reasons I went for the manual).
What is the maintenance other than a fluid and filter replacement every 60,000 miles or so?
$300-$500 every 40k for what you've mentioned.
That is hard to imagine.  For my 2016 Buick Lacrosse, about $190 every 60,000 miles.

It's partly the design of the gearbox, being dual-clutch. Certainly you can understand why I chose the manual in this case.
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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2019, 11:02:41 PM »

I'm sure there were a few good automatics over the years. But largely, they were terrible compared to any equivalent manual gearbox. Though the automatic has been around for 60+ years, without a doubt it has only been perfected in the last 10.

I would say automatics were perfected once shifting was fully electronically controlled and integrated with engine management.  This occurred in the early 1990's.  The first generations of both the Lexus LS 400 and the Saturn S-Series had automatics with full electronic control and spark retard timed to ease shifts.  All that has happened since is just refinement.  The transmission in my 2005 Camry is much more sophisticated than the one in my 1994 Saturn, down to solenoids designed to accept sine waves rather than square waves as input, but I don't feel I am missing out when I drive the Saturn.

Things were noticeably different with the 1986 Nissan Maxima, which had some electronic actuation but still relied on a cable for mechanical input of the throttle position.  I had issues with shift quality that I eventually had to address by adjusting the cable.

Lots of modern automatic transmissions do not even feature a dipstick, so a transmission pan service (replace the fluid, filter, and gasket) has to be performed. That seems to take at least two hours.

I have heard of dipstick-less automatics, as well as ones that seem purposely designed to force the customer to go to the dealer for a factory-approved flush.  Nevertheless there are DIY ATF drain/fill procedures for newer automatics (e.g., on Toyotas in the last ten years or so) that have just a drain hole, a fill hole, and fluid level check using only onboard diagnostics.  Manufacturing transmissions without drain bolts is the same old BS the Big Three have been pulling for decades.

Usually, the interval is much greater than before...I don't think I've seen a recommended 30,000-mile interval for transmissions in a long time; 45-100K is the new norm.

Many transmissions (including the one in my Camry) have no recommended fluid replacement interval.  I tend not to consider service intervals, if they are given at all, to be indicative of any design trends.  ATF is in a sealed sump, so it is not oxidized by blow-by gases like the engine oil (intervals tend to reflect estimates of the time/distance required to reach a safety margin above TBN 1), and it is oil- rather than water-based, so unlike water-based coolant, inhibition of corrosion on metal parts is not an important consideration in service life.  Shift quality changes over time as ATF shears down, but this is a gradual, subtle process and is slow enough with many OEM ATFs that I suspect many makers opt not to quote intervals at all because they see no meaningful reputational risk from really bad transmission performance at the end of a typical 100,000-mile service life.

In the case of transmissions that do have specified drain/fill intervals, it matters what type of ATF is used.  For a Saturn S-Series with a recommended 30,000-mile service interval, for example, it might be prudent to drain and fill generic conventional Dexron III fluid more frequently because it is thinner than Saturn OEM ATF to start with and shears down fast.  On the other hand, TranSynd--which meets the Dexron III spec but is nearly all API Group IV basestocks--is essentially lifetime fill.

You'll get some that say they to never replace the ATF and others who swear by it.

I am a fan of the butt test for monitoring transmission performance.  If you drain and fill the ATF and shift quality is subsequently better, then that is a signal you do need to maintain the ATF.  For the fluid you are using, you can then consider a repeat drain and fill, or further drains and fills at tighter intervals, until you navigate to a point where draining and filling essentially maintains current shift quality instead of bringing the transmission back from noticeably worse performance.

As for what "they" say, I maintain the fluid whether an interval is specified or not, because I have seen how shift quality changes for the better when old fluid is drained out and replaced with new fluid to the appropriate specification.  I notice that "they" who say not to maintain never say how long they keep their vehicles or show any ability to describe shift quality precisely.
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Beltway

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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2019, 11:37:08 PM »

What is the maintenance other than a fluid and filter replacement every 60,000 miles or so?
$300-$500 every 40k for what you've mentioned.
That is hard to imagine.  For my 2016 Buick Lacrosse, about $190 every 60,000 miles.
It's partly the design of the gearbox, being dual-clutch. Certainly you can understand why I chose the manual in this case.

Manual transmissions need fluid replacement as well, at least every 100,000 miles.

I would rather spend $190 every 60,000 miles for maintenance, than spend $1,000 or so on a clutch replacement at around 75,000 or maybe 100,000 if it lasts that long.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2019, 12:11:30 AM »

Manual.  You can alleviate some of the problems in traffic by leaving a safe following distance and costing as much as possible.  While cruising there's virtually no difference between the two now.  Both are on par with fuel economy with the uber new automatics getting better numbers than manuals.  But I like screwing with other drivers when I downshift to a stop thus never turning on my brake lights.
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