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Author Topic: State approved 'old highway' routes  (Read 1391 times)

Mapmikey

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2019, 11:01:21 AM »

^^^^

All of which leads back to what I was getting at—what’s their significance? Do they in fact represent a former route-numbering scheme in which most of the old route numbers have been superseded by road names and, for whatever reason, a few haven’t been? Or is it something else? It’s certainly weird for a road near Durham to be called “Old NC 10” when there’s no “new” NC 10 nearby and all the other nearby roads have names (except maybe NC-751, which becomes Cameron Boulevard closer to Duke’s West Campus but, as far as I know, isn’t named through Duke Forest—the street sign at Kerley Road refers to it as “751 Hwy”).

There are numerous examples of what you describe with NC 10...

OLD NC 75 Durham to Oxford hasn't been NC 75 since 1923.  The new NC 75 in that area was run along US 15 and NC 75 was deposted altogether in 1934.
OLD NC 13 Seagrove NE to US 64 hasn't been NC 13 since 1951.  There was no new NC 13...the corridor was downgraded to secondary status
OLD NC 515 southwest of Wadesboro (https://goo.gl/maps/dMFqZAxzZUN2) was not bypassed on new alignment until 15 years after NC 515 became NC 109 in 1934.  I believe this is named Old NC 515 because of the OLD NC 109 further southwest by the SC border (thus avoiding two roads with the OLD NC 109 name).
OLD 93 btw Pittsboro and Graham stopped being NC 93 in the 1930s when it was placed on today's NC 87.  The longer old alignment south of there (Old Graham Rd) used to be called OLD NC 87 even though it had never been NC 87.

There are innumerable roads named Old US 64, Old US 70 and Old US 74, plus other Old NC 10s (NC 10 was greatly reduced in 1934).

Is there some sort of system?  I don't believe so.  Not every former state route is named after that former designation.  For example old NC 284 from Cove Creek to TN is Cove Creek Rd.

Both photos below by Adam Prince:


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dfilpus

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2019, 11:25:42 AM »

^^^^

All of which leads back to what I was getting at—what’s their significance? Do they in fact represent a former route-numbering scheme in which most of the old route numbers have been superseded by road names and, for whatever reason, a few haven’t been? Or is it something else? It’s certainly weird for a road near Durham to be called “Old NC 10” when there’s no “new” NC 10 nearby and all the other nearby roads have names (except maybe NC-751, which becomes Cameron Boulevard closer to Duke’s West Campus but, as far as I know, isn’t named through Duke Forest—the street sign at Kerley Road refers to it as “751 Hwy”).
North Carolina had a state highway system before the US Highway System was created. NC 10 was the longest state highway that was designated from Beaufort to the Tennessee state line past Murphy. When the US highways were designated in North Carolina, they replaced the old state highway designations. NC 10 was replaced by US 70 east of Asheville and US 19 west of Asheville. NC 75 was replaced by US 15 north of Durham. The roads named "Old NC 10" were so designated when NC 10 was rerouted before the US 70 designation. There is a web page dedicated to them at http://roadgeek.filpus.org/OldNC10.html
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NE2

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2019, 01:27:02 PM »

Who says the state approved it?

Assuming that comment is directed at me, I think the second and third sentences of my post directly above yours more or less ask that same question.

I'm directing it at the original post.
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1995hoo

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2019, 01:33:02 PM »

^^^^

All of which leads back to what I was getting at—what’s their significance? Do they in fact represent a former route-numbering scheme in which most of the old route numbers have been superseded by road names and, for whatever reason, a few haven’t been? Or is it something else? It’s certainly weird for a road near Durham to be called “Old NC 10” when there’s no “new” NC 10 nearby and all the other nearby roads have names (except maybe NC-751, which becomes Cameron Boulevard closer to Duke’s West Campus but, as far as I know, isn’t named through Duke Forest—the street sign at Kerley Road refers to it as “751 Hwy”).
North Carolina had a state highway system before the US Highway System was created. NC 10 was the longest state highway that was designated from Beaufort to the Tennessee state line past Murphy. When the US highways were designated in North Carolina, they replaced the old state highway designations. NC 10 was replaced by US 70 east of Asheville and US 19 west of Asheville. NC 75 was replaced by US 15 north of Durham. The roads named "Old NC 10" were so designated when NC 10 was rerouted before the US 70 designation. There is a web page dedicated to them at http://roadgeek.filpus.org/OldNC10.html


Thanks! That's exactly what I was asking.
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Hot Rod Hootenanny

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2019, 09:25:41 PM »

Who says the state approved it?

I'm directing it at the original post.

Since when do State/Federal/Interstate shields get placed along any sort of road out there?
Otherwise, all our numeral designations become meaningless?
And we don't want 13,740 posts to become....meaningless, do we?

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kphoger

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2019, 09:37:09 PM »

Came upon the following outside Bellefountaine, Ohio today:


Now, we've all seen the various 'Historic Route' signage across the nation, but I've never seen ODOT do this in regards to *expired* Ohio routes before (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_State_Route_533).

I'm pretty sure that's a reassurance assembly that was installed when that was OH 533 and, when it was decommissioned, an OLD sticker was put over the directional banner.

Who says the state approved it?

Hot Rod Hootenanny:  Now, now, I think that's a legitimate question.  What proof do you have that ODOT had any say whatsoever in how a route was signed that's no longer theirs?  Do you have any evidence that signing the road as OLD 533 wasn't, in fact, a decision the county made without any ODOT involvement?
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Kulerage

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2019, 09:58:00 PM »

Sufficient to say that I have never seen these in person. Probably because the new highway paths here are clearly marked when they're changed.
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Scott5114

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2019, 06:37:09 PM »

More fun with Kansas and "Old"—the sign is KDOT's, but the name was probably chosen by the city governments responsible.


The sign that was posted before this was demountable copy and said "Old Hwy 56".
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bing101

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2019, 07:57:41 AM »

Lewis Brown Drive in Vallejo,CA was initially signed as Old Highway 37 back in 2005-2006 because of the freeway section of CA-37 was recently constructed between the Fairgrounds drive exit to the Mare Island Bridge.

But that was a case when Lewis Brown Drive was transitioning from Caltrans maintenance to the City of Vallejo when the Old Highway 37 sign was out.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 07:59:49 AM by bing101 »
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ClassicHasClass

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2019, 09:30:48 AM »

Never seen "OLD" banners in California, but if these count, then Old Highways 58, 80 and 395 should too (they're well-signed from the subsequent freeway alignments and known as such), and arguably the various former alignments of US 66 when Caltrans puts up HISTORIC ROUTE signage. There are also the various locally signed Historic Route shields (6, 40, 66, 80, 99, 101, 395 and probably others), but these are usually erected by cities or counties, so they probably don't count here.

There's also the edge case of 14U, itself a former alignment of US 6 where an unrelinquished alignment actually got signed by the state that way (parallel to modern CA 14): https://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/mass/#14u
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 09:33:01 AM by ClassicHasClass »
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1995hoo

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2019, 05:58:23 PM »

Who says the state approved it?

I'm directing it at the original post.

Since when do State/Federal/Interstate shields get placed along any sort of road out there?

....

What is a “Federal” shield?
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kphoger

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2019, 06:02:40 PM »

I didn't understand the whole gist of his post.
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vdeane

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2019, 08:40:55 PM »

Who says the state approved it?

I'm directing it at the original post.

Since when do State/Federal/Interstate shields get placed along any sort of road out there?

....

What is a “Federal” shield?
Something viatologists sing about, I think.
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GaryV

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2019, 09:40:23 PM »

Michigan has quite a few locally named roads (county mostly) that are called "Old xx".

One of the most unique is Old 99 in Muskegon and Oceana County.  It was originally part of the West Michigan Pike, which later became Trunk Line 11 and then M-11.  It was replaced by US-31 in 1926.  But the a portion of the original road remains as "Old 99" to this day, 100 years later.

Old US-27 even has a county pentagon shield with that designation, northwest of Vanderbilt.  https://www.google.com/maps/@45.1847298,-84.6728104,3a,75y,233.24h,79.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sggHFPmG0dlLTrr44pjtCig!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en  (Trust me, it says Old 27)
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catch22

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2019, 09:42:21 AM »


Old US-27 even has a county pentagon shield with that designation, northwest of Vanderbilt.  https://www.google.com/maps/@45.1847298,-84.6728104,3a,75y,233.24h,79.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sggHFPmG0dlLTrr44pjtCig!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en  (Trust me, it says Old 27)


Otsego County does this too:

https://goo.gl/maps/pcJ6GaKAcjx
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 09:47:26 AM by catch22 »
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hbelkins

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2019, 11:02:23 AM »

Who says the state approved it?

I'm directing it at the original post.

Since when do State/Federal/Interstate shields get placed along any sort of road out there?

....

What is a “Federal” shield?
Something viatologists sing about, I think.

Saving that video for posterity may have been my single greatest worldly accomplishment.  :-D :-D :-D
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ftballfan

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2019, 04:29:07 PM »

Michigan has quite a few locally named roads (county mostly) that are called "Old xx".

One of the most unique is Old 99 in Muskegon and Oceana County.  It was originally part of the West Michigan Pike, which later became Trunk Line 11 and then M-11.  It was replaced by US-31 in 1926.  But the a portion of the original road remains as "Old 99" to this day, 100 years later.

Old US-27 even has a county pentagon shield with that designation, northwest of Vanderbilt.  https://www.google.com/maps/@45.1847298,-84.6728104,3a,75y,233.24h,79.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sggHFPmG0dlLTrr44pjtCig!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en  (Trust me, it says Old 27)

Original M-99 and M-11 did coexist in 1919: http://seekingmichigan.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p129401coll3/id/2403/rec/79
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NE2

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2019, 05:40:13 PM »

Original M-99 and M-11 did coexist in 1919: http://seekingmichigan.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p129401coll3/id/2403/rec/79
I'm pretty sure that map does not actually show what the highways were like in 1919, given that it doesn't jibe with the numbering in decreasing order of length. But yes, 99 and 11 existed at the same time.
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1995hoo

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2019, 06:12:52 PM »

Who says the state approved it?

I'm directing it at the original post.

Since when do State/Federal/Interstate shields get placed along any sort of road out there?

....

What is a “Federal” shield?
Something viatologists sing about, I think.

At least he spells his last name correctly.  :D
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"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jp the roadgeek

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2019, 10:20:35 AM »

Borrowing this one from the New Hampshire thread.  On I-89:

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kphoger

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2019, 01:37:12 PM »

Have any of the submissions to this thread exhibited any evidence of actually being "state approved" (as the thread title asks)?
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Mapmikey

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2019, 03:06:21 PM »

Have any of the submissions to this thread exhibited any evidence of actually being "state approved" (as the thread title asks)?

Here is an example.  I forgot about this...

Virginia does have a concept of Old State Route (OSR).  When a primary route is rerouted onto new construction, the previous route sometimes becomes an OSR until its ultimate designation is determined.  The two likely outcomes are abandonment or convert to the secondary system.

The OSR concept goes back to at least the 1970s.

Only one shows explicitly in the 2017 traffic logs, OSR 234 in Independent Hill.  Oddly, the old 234 through there is SR 3245 on one end, SR 619 in the middle and OSR 234 on the southern end.

Go to pg 18 for OSR 234 reference - http://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/Traffic_2017/AADT_076_PrinceWilliam_2017.pdf
Go to pg. 20 for OSR 15-29 reference (this is now SR 762 between Culpeper and Brandy Station) - http://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/AADT_1975.pdf
Go to pg. 147 for OSR 57 reference in 1980 (this is now VA 457) - http://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/AADT_1980.pdf

The old on-line VDOT map that is no longer available would show them.  I am aware of a few more that have existed.

To my knowledge I don't recall seeing one posted in the field as anything at all.

The old VA 175 approach to Chincoteague may be an OSR route as well since 2010.  Traffic logs show it as if were a separate VA 175 stub off VA 175.  It is still not posted in the field as anything as of Nov 2016 GMSV.
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I: 4 8 12 16 17 20 26 27 30 40 59 64 66 68 72 73 ew74 77 78 79 82 83 ew84 85 ew86 e88 97 99
US: 4 6N 9W 11E 11W 13 15 19W 21 44 46 48 58 72 92 113 117 123 130 158 163 176 178 192 206 209 211 219 220 221 222 258 264 276 290 311 319 322 340 360 378 401 ew422 501 521 522 601 701
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bulldog1979

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2019, 09:17:48 PM »


Old US-27 even has a county pentagon shield with that designation, northwest of Vanderbilt.  https://www.google.com/maps/@45.1847298,-84.6728104,3a,75y,233.24h,79.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sggHFPmG0dlLTrr44pjtCig!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en  (Trust me, it says Old 27)


Otsego County does this too:

https://goo.gl/maps/pcJ6GaKAcjx


Considering that Vanderbilt is in Otsego County, yes, they do. Cheboygan County does not call old US 27 anything other than South Straits Highway, its original road name.
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dlsterner

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2019, 11:33:57 PM »

Here's one on eastbound MD 450 in Bowie, Maryland.  The "OLD" sign is referring to an old alignment of the route.  Although the sign looks pretty much "official", I don't know if it really is, or if it just is there to help drivers locate businesses on the old alignment.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.972061,-76.7730224,3a,75y,93.08h,89.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfCsePqLvYWEdbbMtiwQP9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


(First time adding Google Street View picture - if I did it wrong, kindly let me know the proper way)
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NE2

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2019, 08:57:31 AM »

Who says the state approved it?

I'm directing it at the original post.

Since when do State/Federal/Interstate shields get placed along any sort of road out there?
Otherwise, all our numeral designations become meaningless?
And we don't want 13,740 posts to become....meaningless, do we?



The question stands. Don't be a knob.
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