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Author Topic: State approved 'old highway' routes  (Read 2081 times)

Hot Rod Hootenanny

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State approved 'old highway' routes
« on: February 27, 2019, 08:13:41 PM »

Came upon the following outside Bellefountaine, Ohio today:


Now, we've all seen the various 'Historic Route' signage across the nation, but I've never seen ODOT do this in regards to *expired* Ohio routes before (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_State_Route_533).

Anyone else have examples of road signage like this?
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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 08:49:50 PM »

Came upon the following outside Bellefountaine, Ohio today:


Now, we've all seen the various 'Historic Route' signage across the nation, but I've never seen ODOT do this in regards to *expired* Ohio routes before (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_State_Route_533).


TxDOT would really have to up their sign budget if they started doing historic/OLD signage along former US/state routes in TX (it would be like if the state had to do state-sign-style installs of yellow/blue-pentagon county road signage, like some other states do, with directions and arrows included -- $$$$!!!!).  As it is, roads like the ones formerly part of Route 66 in the panhandle are having to pay for their own historic/brown signs to mark the route, because TxDOT can't/won't pay for them.  If there were the $$$$ and incentive, it would be interesting to see how far TxDOT would go as far as a rollout of previous-route historic/OLD signage.

As for the pic, I think the OLD and old-OH-route signage install really overpowers what is currently there--a county road signage labeling.  Seems like to me, they should be equal sizes <or> the OLD and OH route signage part should be a bit smaller than the signage of the current designation.  Otherwise, those out there who aren't road-scholar-ish might think that Logan CR 5 and OH 533 are an overlap.  And the topic: I don't think TX has ever done anything remotely like this.  The various Route 66 treatments since the 1980s in the panhandle (the white-on-green "Historic Route 66" signs along SW 6th in Amarillo, the black-on-white "Old Route 66" state-shape-on-brown east and west of Amarillo, and now the new gotta-pay-for-it-yourself new bigger brown-background historic 66 signs) have been the only TxDOT/local sign treatments in a historic/OLD sense (IIRR) in the whole state.
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Scott5114

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2019, 09:03:10 PM »

I'm pretty sure that's a reassurance assembly that was installed when that was OH 533 and, when it was decommissioned, an OLD sticker was put over the directional banner. Which would explain why it's bigger than the CR signage.

Kansas did something similar with a US-69 shield when it was realigned—left the shield in place and just put a red diagonal slash over the shield.
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TheHighwayMan394

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2019, 11:22:29 PM »

MnDOT will use something similar in the interim of turning back or renumbering a state Highway (though I believe this practice is skipped if the route is deemed not significant enough). MN 5 following its turnback in Washington County and MN 110’s recent renumbering as an extension of MM 62 are two recent examples in the metro.
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Roadsguy

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2019, 12:31:34 AM »

I'm pretty sure I saw a picture of an "Old PA 17" trailblazer on I-86 in northwest PA, presumably from shortly after the former PA 17 was decommissioned in favor of I-86. It might have been on the PA Highways gallery.
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hbelkins

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2019, 07:43:17 PM »

Kentucky's practice is to sign a route as "Formerly xx" for about a year after a number changes. If a state route is turned over to a county, they just either take the signs down or leave them up without changes.

I know I have seen "Old" banners somewhere, but can't think off the top of my head where.
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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2019, 08:17:16 PM »

Virginia also will do this for a year on some primary and secondary routes.  Not universal, though.  The practice dates back to at least the 1950s in Virginia...although the 1933 Official map says that old and new route numbers would be posted in the field following the massive July 1933 renumbering.  Never seen a photo of how they did that.  Which makes me wonder what is the oldest OLD posting like this?  I know of a 1935 example in South Carolina when US 401 was renumbered as US 15...


from Nov 1952 Va Hwys Bulletin


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1995hoo

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2019, 09:17:12 PM »

I don’t know the significance of it, but North Carolina has some roads signed as “Old NC ##,” not with route shields but with street signs. See link below from one I recall from my law school days—it’s probably the same sign, too.

https://goo.gl/maps/p2qdSMZXzau
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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2019, 09:18:23 PM »

I don’t know the significance of it, but North Carolina has some roads signed as “Old NC ##,” not with route shields but with street signs. See link below from one I recall from my law school days—it’s probably the same sign, too.

https://goo.gl/maps/p2qdSMZXzau

Is that the street name? MN has “Old Highway X” in places as a physical street name.
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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2019, 09:43:12 PM »

I'm pretty sure that's a reassurance assembly that was installed when that was OH 533 and, when it was decommissioned, an OLD sticker was put over the directional banner. Which would explain why it's bigger than the CR signage.

Kansas did something similar with a US-69 shield when it was realigned—left the shield in place and just put a red diagonal slash over the shield.

It was actually the country that posted the shield. I ran the pic in the Fort Scott Tribune when I worked there:
https://www.fstribune.com/story/1649927.html


The cutline, in case the link doesn't work:
"Motorists who inadvertently turn onto old U.S. Highway 69 just north of Pleasanton will find this unusual reminder that the road is no longer a highway. A red 'No' slash has been drawn through the shield. The back of the sign notes that the Linn County road department owns the sign. The current U.S. 69 opened about a half mile east of here earlier this year. (Copyright David L. Backlin, July 2010/Used with permission)"
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hbelkins

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2019, 12:43:32 PM »

I don’t know the significance of it, but North Carolina has some roads signed as “Old NC ##,” not with route shields but with street signs. See link below from one I recall from my law school days—it’s probably the same sign, too.

https://goo.gl/maps/p2qdSMZXzau

Is that the street name? MN has “Old Highway X” in places as a physical street name.

Happens frequently here too, where county roads aren't posted with a numbered system, and are signed with blades like city streets.
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ilpt4u

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2019, 12:51:10 PM »

I don’t know the significance of it, but North Carolina has some roads signed as “Old NC ##,” not with route shields but with street signs. See link below from one I recall from my law school days—it’s probably the same sign, too.

https://goo.gl/maps/p2qdSMZXzau

Is that the street name? MN has “Old Highway X” in places as a physical street name.

Happens frequently here too, where county roads aren't posted with a numbered system, and are signed with blades like city streets.
Happens in Illinois, too. In/around Carbondale, Old IL 13 and Old US 51 are both signed that way on Street blades, and also have IDOT standard county-based mile markers. Old 13 is identified as Route 913 on the Mile Markers. I forget what Old 51 is identified as on the mile markers

Also, these Old routes are still IDOT maintained
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kphoger

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2019, 01:59:53 PM »

In/around Carbondale, Old IL 13 and Old US 51 are both signed that way on Street blades, and also have IDOT standard county-based mile markers. Old 13 is identified as Route 913 on the Mile Markers. I forget what Old 51 is identified as on the mile markers

Also, these Old routes are still IDOT maintained

Those are remnants of the FAS highway system that used to be used in Illinois.  I've actually been expecting these numbers to gradually fade away from real life.  Despite Brandon having said...

IDOT still uses the FAx numbers as internal route numbers.  Examples: FAP-431 is now I-355, FAP-432 will be the IL-53 extension.  They use the FAI numbers as the interstate numbers.  For example, FAI-55 is I-55, FAI-74 is I-74.  The only FAx numbers I haven't seen from IDOT is the FAU series.

... the state government states:

FAU, FAS, FAP numbers are no longer used to depict route information, including functional classification or funding eligibility.  They also no longer appear on IDOT maps.  The key route designation is now used as the road's identifier.  The key route designation is the Key Route Type, a hyphen, and the Key Route Number available on IDOT's Getting Around Illinois map.

For example, Old 13 (with legacy FAS-913 reference markers remaning) is now referred to as 9-9629.

Old 51 (with legacy FAS-911 reference markers remaining) is now referred to as 3-1911.
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froggie

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2019, 02:08:47 PM »

I don’t know the significance of it, but North Carolina has some roads signed as “Old NC ##,” not with route shields but with street signs. See link below from one I recall from my law school days—it’s probably the same sign, too.

https://goo.gl/maps/p2qdSMZXzau

Is that the street name? MN has “Old Highway X” in places as a physical street name.

Yes, those are considered streetnames, and that sort of thing happens all over the country (as noted by the recently posted examples, amongst numerous others).
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paulthemapguy

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2019, 02:15:10 PM »

I have a picture of the same assembly lol...It was taken at the very end of February three years ago!


OH-533STNO by Paul Drives, on Flickr

As stated above, IDOT has a whole slew of state highways that are unsigned.  Many of them are sections of road that the state wanted to hand off to counties or local agencies, but the counties/local agencies refused to accept them.  Bill Burmaster's site has a whole page dedicated to finding these "secret Illinois routes."  Here's an image of one that I found on Maxwell Road in Peoria.


IL-911-0MI by Paul Drives, on Flickr

And, as stated in the post above, a street blade saying "Old State Route ###" doesn't necessarily mean the road continues to be state-maintained.
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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2019, 02:53:01 PM »

And, as stated in the post above, a street blade saying "Old State Route ###" doesn't necessarily mean the road continues to be state-maintained.
True. Old IL 13 between Carbondale and Murphysboro is actually signed where State Maintenance Begins and Ends
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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2019, 04:01:52 PM »

And, as stated in the post above, a street blade saying "Old State Route ###" doesn't necessarily mean the road continues to be state-maintained.
True. Old IL 13 between Carbondale and Murphysboro is actually signed where State Maintenance Begins and Ends

I'm pretty sure you can find some "913" mile markers along that stretch, looking like the one I showed in my photo.
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D-Dey65

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2019, 04:08:40 PM »

I'm tempted to suggest it might be a good designation for Old Northern Boulevard (Old NY 25A) in Roslyn, New York.
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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2019, 04:27:28 PM »

And, as stated in the post above, a street blade saying "Old State Route ###" doesn't necessarily mean the road continues to be state-maintained.
True. Old IL 13 between Carbondale and Murphysboro is actually signed where State Maintenance Begins and Ends

I'm pretty sure you can find some "913" mile markers along that stretch, looking like the one I showed in my photo.
You can. Pretty sure the are on the stretch between Carterville and Marion as well.

The stretch between Carterville and Carbondale...well its at the bottom of Crab Orchard Lake
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kphoger

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2019, 04:50:45 PM »


IL-911-0MI by Paul Drives, on Flickr

This road is now a combination of route # 9-6577 and part of route # 2-0671.



And, as stated in the post above, a street blade saying "Old State Route ###" doesn't necessarily mean the road continues to be state-maintained.
True. Old IL 13 between Carbondale and Murphysboro is actually signed where State Maintenance Begins and Ends

I'm pretty sure you can find some "913" mile markers along that stretch, looking like the one I showed in my photo.
You can. Pretty sure the are on the stretch between Carterville and Marion as well.

The stretch between Carterville and Carbondale...well its at the bottom of Crab Orchard Lake

There were certainly FAS-913 reference markers on Old 13 west of Marion back when I lived the area before 2008.  I'm struggling to find any GSV shots of current ones along there, however.  As I said, I'm wondering if these will become relics of the past now that the numbers no longer mean anything.
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1995hoo

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2019, 05:46:48 PM »

I don’t know the significance of it, but North Carolina has some roads signed as “Old NC ##,” not with route shields but with street signs. See link below from one I recall from my law school days—it’s probably the same sign, too.

https://goo.gl/maps/p2qdSMZXzau

Is that the street name? MN has “Old Highway X” in places as a physical street name.

As I said, I had never known what, if any, significance there was to it, which is part of why this thread prompted me to mention it when I remembered those signs.
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Mapmikey

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2019, 09:34:01 PM »

In my lengthy NC experience I don't recall seeing an OLD banner for a route shield (one 1970s renumbering, 168 to 34 just had 34 patches placed on all the 168 shields), but North Carolina in the pre-911 emergency number days used to refer to some roads as OLD on interstate BGSs.

Ones that I recall (some may still be up) were OLD US 64 in Old Fort; OLD US 70 in Hickory; OLD NC 10 in Hildebran; OLD NC 42 off US 1 near Apex (this is Ten Ten Rd which was Old 42 on its eastern end but AFAIK never all the way over to US 1).

A few OLD designations are also posted on the black and white destination signs that used to be everywhere in NC.  Otherwise they have been on street blade names.
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1995hoo

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2019, 08:25:12 AM »

^^^^

All of which leads back to what I was getting at—what’s their significance? Do they in fact represent a former route-numbering scheme in which most of the old route numbers have been superseded by road names and, for whatever reason, a few haven’t been? Or is it something else? It’s certainly weird for a road near Durham to be called “Old NC 10” when there’s no “new” NC 10 nearby and all the other nearby roads have names (except maybe NC-751, which becomes Cameron Boulevard closer to Duke’s West Campus but, as far as I know, isn’t named through Duke Forest—the street sign at Kerley Road refers to it as “751 Hwy”).
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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2019, 08:41:13 AM »

Who says the state approved it?
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1995hoo

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Re: State approved 'old highway' routes
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2019, 10:07:34 AM »

Who says the state approved it?

Assuming that comment is directed at me, I think the second and third sentences of my post directly above yours more or less ask that same question.
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
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"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

 


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