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Author Topic: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?  (Read 1518 times)

RobbieL2415

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Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« on: March 08, 2019, 06:40:40 PM »

Slow down more and cut the wheel harder. It's not that difficult. You have no excuse. You're just lazy. It's different if you're towing something, I get that. But stop being ditzy on the road.  USE BOTH HANDS.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2019, 07:19:56 PM »

   
That's just it. They only have one hand on the wheel. The other is usually occupied with the phone. Even if both hands are free the habit seems to be ingrained.      
   
This is one of my pet gripes, too.   
   
Another one is the tendency of some drivers to start into a left turn before an oncoming car has got past them. Like they feel the need to time it just right even though there may not be another car for a hundred yards in the oncoming lane. If they were to get rear ended they could clip the oncoming car before it is clear.   
   
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2019, 07:55:46 PM »

   
That's just it. They only have one hand on the wheel. The other is usually occupied with the phone. Even if both hands are free the habit seems to be ingrained.      
   
This is one of my pet gripes, too.   
   
Another one is the tendency of some drivers to start into a left turn before an oncoming car has got past them. Like they feel the need to time it just right even though there may not be another car for a hundred yards in the oncoming lane. If they were to get rear ended they could clip the oncoming car before it is clear.   

Or the drivers who literally cannot wait for one more car to pass them before they can safely make a turn and they whip out in front of you or into the lane to your left.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2019, 10:47:13 PM »

Because drivers are awful at slowing down for turns, roadway obstructions, pedestrians, bicyclists, pets, animals, etc.

Brandon

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2019, 12:04:06 AM »

Because drivers are awful at slowing down for turns, roadway obstructions, pedestrians, bicyclists, pets, animals, etc.

Not to throw stones here, but bicyclists are just as bad, speaking from the perspective of a pedestrian.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2019, 12:07:14 AM »

Because drivers are awful at slowing down for turns, roadway obstructions, pedestrians, bicyclists, pets, animals, etc.

Not to throw stones here, but bicyclists are just as bad, speaking from the perspective of a pedestrian.

Most people are sub-par vehicle operators in general.

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2019, 02:26:42 AM »

Because drivers are awful at slowing down for turns, roadway obstructions, pedestrians, bicyclists, pets, animals, etc.

Not to throw stones here, but bicyclists are just as bad, speaking from the perspective of a pedestrian.

Bicycle-on-pedestrian collisions are rarely fatal.

If we had good bike lanes in every urban center, they wouldn't need to use the sidewalks, but because people freak out over road diets, they get to choose between a deadly lane/shoulder or a relatively safe sidewalk.

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2019, 04:29:46 AM »

I'm more annoyed by people that slow down excessively slowly to make a turn. It is almost like they want to draw attention to themselves.
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Brandon

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2019, 07:46:26 AM »

Because drivers are awful at slowing down for turns, roadway obstructions, pedestrians, bicyclists, pets, animals, etc.

Not to throw stones here, but bicyclists are just as bad, speaking from the perspective of a pedestrian.

Bicycle-on-pedestrian collisions are rarely fatal.

But, they have the potential to be, and I usually fear more for my life and safety from the bicyclists (on multi-use paths where motorized vehicles are not allowed) than from the motorists.  At least, as a pedestrian, a car is big enough to see.  A bicycle comes flying silently out of nowhere.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2019, 08:54:23 AM »

Because drivers are awful at slowing down for turns, roadway obstructions, pedestrians, bicyclists, pets, animals, etc.

Not to throw stones here, but bicyclists are just as bad, speaking from the perspective of a pedestrian.

Bicycle-on-pedestrian collisions are rarely fatal.

If we had good bike lanes in every urban center, they wouldn't need to use the sidewalks, but because people freak out over road diets, they get to choose between a deadly lane/shoulder or a relatively safe sidewalk.

Car vs. car accidents are rarely fatal.

Car vs. Ped or Bike accidents are rare, period.  And under the subject heading of failing to make tight turns, the likelihood of a car turning into a ped is extremely rare, because the motorist should've yielded to the ped in the crosswalk in the first place.  If a car was turning right in front of a bicyclist, then turning wide is actually a *good* thing, because it gives the bicyclist additional room to account for the motorist's error. 

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2019, 09:04:07 AM »

   
That's just it. They only have one hand on the wheel. The other is usually occupied with the phone.

An overly inaccurate observation.  If you watched 10 people drive by, and 1 was using a phone, many will say that "everyone" is using their phone, even though in that sample only 10% actually did.

And of the rant - this type of turn has been occurring way longer than phone have been around.  I think it's picked up in recent years, but that's more due to people insisting on wanting to drive in the left lane for no good reason.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2019, 01:00:37 PM »

A related turning annoyance is when a driver first drifts in the opposite direction of the turn. Moving right, then turning left, for example. And often by drivers of small cars with tight turning radii. Seesh, you're not driving the Queen Mary. You don't need to swing wide to clear that non-existent wheelbase!

I've had people come close to hitting me going in the opposite direction or side-swipe me in the same direction because they swung so wide they crossed the line and made an incursion into my lane.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2019, 04:02:34 PM »

A related turning annoyance is when a driver first drifts in the opposite direction of the turn. Moving right, then turning left, for example. And often by drivers of small cars with tight turning radii. Seesh, you're not driving the Queen Mary. You don't need to swing wide to clear that non-existent wheelbase!

I've had people come close to hitting me going in the opposite direction or side-swipe me in the same direction because they swung so wide they crossed the line and made an incursion into my lane.
They think it improves accuracy, but it actually doesn't. And the law actually requires that you make turns all the way over to one side.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2019, 09:44:55 PM »

But, they have the potential to be, and I usually fear more for my life and safety from the bicyclists (on multi-use paths where motorized vehicles are not allowed) than from the motorists.  At least, as a pedestrian, a car is big enough to see.  A bicycle comes flying silently out of nowhere.

Cars come out of nowhere at higher speeds, and with the advent of quieter electric vehicles they'll pose just as much risk to someone with limited hearing.

But seriously, 15 pedestrians die every day in the U.S. from collisions with cars. This number is only increasing.

Bicycle-on-pedestrian collisions are on the decline and don't cause deaths on nearly the same scale.

Car vs. car accidents are rarely fatal.

Car vs. Ped or Bike accidents are rare, period.  And under the subject heading of failing to make tight turns, the likelihood of a car turning into a ped is extremely rare, because the motorist should've yielded to the ped in the crosswalk in the first place.  If a car was turning right in front of a bicyclist, then turning wide is actually a *good* thing, because it gives the bicyclist additional room to account for the motorist's error. 

40,000 people die annually (109 per day) while in cars that have crashed into other cars. They are fatal enough to be the top killer of Americans in most demographics under the age of 65.

People make too many blind right turns into crosswalks without bothering to look for pedestrians. I've been the victim of this many times, and usually the driver does manage to stop halfway in the crosswalk while looking shocked that someone would dare walk in *their* road.

Crosswalks should come with railroad-style crossing arms that actually prevent intrusion for the duration of the walk signal. Or better yet, just ban cars from making right turns on reds, which is something that many cities have considered or are planning to implement.

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2019, 11:10:31 PM »

40,000 do not die annually.  That was just for 2017.
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Brandon

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2019, 12:05:06 AM »

40,000 do not die annually.  That was just for 2017.

It varies, & about half are due to drunk drivers and/or pedestrians.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2019, 03:35:25 AM »

But, they have the potential to be, and I usually fear more for my life and safety from the bicyclists (on multi-use paths where motorized vehicles are not allowed) than from the motorists.  At least, as a pedestrian, a car is big enough to see.  A bicycle comes flying silently out of nowhere.

Cars come out of nowhere at higher speeds, and with the advent of quieter electric vehicles they'll pose just as much risk to someone with limited hearing.

But seriously, 15 pedestrians die every day in the U.S. from collisions with cars. This number is only increasing.

Bicycle-on-pedestrian collisions are on the decline and don't cause deaths on nearly the same scale.

Car vs. car accidents are rarely fatal.

Car vs. Ped or Bike accidents are rare, period.  And under the subject heading of failing to make tight turns, the likelihood of a car turning into a ped is extremely rare, because the motorist should've yielded to the ped in the crosswalk in the first place.  If a car was turning right in front of a bicyclist, then turning wide is actually a *good* thing, because it gives the bicyclist additional room to account for the motorist's error. 

40,000 people die annually (109 per day) while in cars that have crashed into other cars. They are fatal enough to be the top killer of Americans in most demographics under the age of 65.

People make too many blind right turns into crosswalks without bothering to look for pedestrians. I've been the victim of this many times, and usually the driver does manage to stop halfway in the crosswalk while looking shocked that someone would dare walk in *their* road.

Crosswalks should come with railroad-style crossing arms that actually prevent intrusion for the duration of the walk signal. Or better yet, just ban cars from making right turns on reds, which is something that many cities have considered or are planning to implement.

We definitely need to change the way we do traffic signals. Too many times drivers have cut me off as a pedestrian even though I had the walk sign. I'm suggesting we don't allow turns unless there's an arrow, and the arrow is only on when pedestrians can't cross in that area.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2019, 03:40:55 AM »

40,000 do not die annually.  That was just for 2017.

It varies, & about half are due to drunk drivers and/or pedestrians.

I'm not sure how you're arriving at your second point, unless pedestrians are made of diamond and cause the car to crumple upon hitting them. Car vs ped collisions are obviously weighted in the favor of the car (no pun intended).
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Brandon

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2019, 08:14:52 AM »

40,000 do not die annually.  That was just for 2017.

It varies, & about half are due to drunk drivers and/or pedestrians.

I'm not sure how you're arriving at your second point, unless pedestrians are made of diamond and cause the car to crumple upon hitting them. Car vs ped collisions are obviously weighted in the favor of the car (no pun intended).

OK, to show how absurd Bruce's point actually is, here's a few more pieces of information.

1. There are about 40,000 deaths on the highway every year.  That's a combination of all motorists, passengers, pedestrians, and bicyclists who get killed.

2. The number has been relatively stubborn as a raw number since 1970.

3. The US population has increased from 200 million in 1970 to 330 million currently.  Thus, that 40,000 number is much lower per capita today than it was then.  0.02% of the population in 1970 to 0.012% of the population currently.  If the dangers that Bruce is focusing on are so bad, then that number should be about 0.02% today, or about 66,000 people annually.  Obviously, 26,000 people more are not dying on our roads in any way, shape, or form, thus total deaths per capita have fallen.

4. Crashes of all types that involve alcohol range from about 20% (Utah) to about 50% (several states).  These crashes involve not just drivers under the influence, but bicyclists and pedestrians too.  For example, a drunk pedestrian running out onto a freeway and getting killed is an alcohol-related crash, even though none of the drivers were drunk.

5. Crashes per million and billion vehicle miles traveled (and possibly walked and bicycled) have also undergone a dramatic reduction between 1970 and 2019.

6. As for most pedestrian and bicyclist deaths, these occur during the overnight hours.  Speaking from a driving perspective on this, it's stunning how many choose to ride without proper lights and reflectors, and how many choose to walk in the street when there's a perfectly good sidewalk alongside.  It's also stunning how many that choose to do these things wear dark, non-reflective clothing.

Thus, Bruce's points are fairly moot.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2019, 08:58:53 AM »

But, they have the potential to be, and I usually fear more for my life and safety from the bicyclists (on multi-use paths where motorized vehicles are not allowed) than from the motorists.  At least, as a pedestrian, a car is big enough to see.  A bicycle comes flying silently out of nowhere.

Cars come out of nowhere at higher speeds, and with the advent of quieter electric vehicles they'll pose just as much risk to someone with limited hearing.

But seriously, 15 pedestrians die every day in the U.S. from collisions with cars. This number is only increasing.

Bicycle-on-pedestrian collisions are on the decline and don't cause deaths on nearly the same scale.

Car vs. car accidents are rarely fatal.

Car vs. Ped or Bike accidents are rare, period.  And under the subject heading of failing to make tight turns, the likelihood of a car turning into a ped is extremely rare, because the motorist should've yielded to the ped in the crosswalk in the first place.  If a car was turning right in front of a bicyclist, then turning wide is actually a *good* thing, because it gives the bicyclist additional room to account for the motorist's error. 

40,000 people die annually (109 per day) while in cars that have crashed into other cars. They are fatal enough to be the top killer of Americans in most demographics under the age of 65.

People make too many blind right turns into crosswalks without bothering to look for pedestrians. I've been the victim of this many times, and usually the driver does manage to stop halfway in the crosswalk while looking shocked that someone would dare walk in *their* road.

Crosswalks should come with railroad-style crossing arms that actually prevent intrusion for the duration of the walk signal. Or better yet, just ban cars from making right turns on reds, which is something that many cities have considered or are planning to implement.

We definitely need to change the way we do traffic signals. Too many times drivers have cut me off as a pedestrian even though I had the walk sign. I'm suggesting we don't allow turns unless there's an arrow, and the arrow is only on when pedestrians can't cross in that area.

Problem is, at least around here, the pedestrians ignore their signal. DC has been putting up various new right-on-red prohibitions in the purported name of protecting pedestrians. But pedestrians continue to walk at all phases of the light cycle whenever they think they have a second or so, which essentially makes a legal right turn almost impossible at corners where the restriction was posted. When the "Don't Walk" comes on, that's the drivers' time to make their turns, so wait on the sidewalk until it's your turn again if you're a pedestrian. (Often I'm the only person who doesn't cross against the light in front of right-turning cars.)

I definitely agree that there is an awful lot of bad driver behavior, but I don't think disregarding bad pedestrian behavior is the best solution. (I also wish they'd crack down on those stupid motorized scooters and on cyclists illegally using the downtown sidewalks, but that's all a different thread.)
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MantyMadTown

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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2019, 09:03:41 AM »

But, they have the potential to be, and I usually fear more for my life and safety from the bicyclists (on multi-use paths where motorized vehicles are not allowed) than from the motorists.  At least, as a pedestrian, a car is big enough to see.  A bicycle comes flying silently out of nowhere.

Cars come out of nowhere at higher speeds, and with the advent of quieter electric vehicles they'll pose just as much risk to someone with limited hearing.

But seriously, 15 pedestrians die every day in the U.S. from collisions with cars. This number is only increasing.

Bicycle-on-pedestrian collisions are on the decline and don't cause deaths on nearly the same scale.

Car vs. car accidents are rarely fatal.

Car vs. Ped or Bike accidents are rare, period.  And under the subject heading of failing to make tight turns, the likelihood of a car turning into a ped is extremely rare, because the motorist should've yielded to the ped in the crosswalk in the first place.  If a car was turning right in front of a bicyclist, then turning wide is actually a *good* thing, because it gives the bicyclist additional room to account for the motorist's error. 

40,000 people die annually (109 per day) while in cars that have crashed into other cars. They are fatal enough to be the top killer of Americans in most demographics under the age of 65.

People make too many blind right turns into crosswalks without bothering to look for pedestrians. I've been the victim of this many times, and usually the driver does manage to stop halfway in the crosswalk while looking shocked that someone would dare walk in *their* road.

Crosswalks should come with railroad-style crossing arms that actually prevent intrusion for the duration of the walk signal. Or better yet, just ban cars from making right turns on reds, which is something that many cities have considered or are planning to implement.

We definitely need to change the way we do traffic signals. Too many times drivers have cut me off as a pedestrian even though I had the walk sign. I'm suggesting we don't allow turns unless there's an arrow, and the arrow is only on when pedestrians can't cross in that area.

Problem is, at least around here, the pedestrians ignore their signal. DC has been putting up various new right-on-red prohibitions in the purported name of protecting pedestrians. But pedestrians continue to walk at all phases of the light cycle whenever they think they have a second or so, which essentially makes a legal right turn almost impossible at corners where the restriction was posted. I definitely agree that there is an awful lot of bad driver behavior, but I don't think disregarding bad pedestrian behavior is the best solution. (I also wish they'd crack down on those stupid motorized scooters and on cyclists illegally using the downtown sidewalks, but that's all a different thread.)

I've seen this problem on campus as well—I'm even a little bit guilty of it myself. I've seen many people use the crosswalk during a red light, which I also do if I'm behind them and there's enough time, but it's a bad enough influence to think that if they have time to cross the street, then I can cross the street as well. So what I'm saying is, it doesn't just affect the individual, it affects everyone else behind them as well.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2019, 09:07:08 AM »

I generally cross on a "don't walk" if it's clear, including checking for turning cars. As the most common intersection where this applies to me has many pedestrians (it's on campus at UMass Lowell), I've seen groups people walk in front of turning cars, and one time, someone walked in front of an emergency vehicle.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2019, 02:21:44 PM »

That's just it. They only have one hand on the wheel. The other is usually occupied with the phone.
An overly inaccurate observation.  If you watched 10 people drive by, and 1 was using a phone, many will say that "everyone" is using their phone, even though in that sample only 10% actually did.
The problem is, if you watch 10 people drive by, nowadays 9 of them will be using a phone.
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2019, 02:36:18 PM »

That's just it. They only have one hand on the wheel. The other is usually occupied with the phone.
An overly inaccurate observation.  If you watched 10 people drive by, and 1 was using a phone, many will say that "everyone" is using their phone, even though in that sample only 10% actually did.
The problem is, if you watch 10 people drive by, nowadays 9 of them will be using a phone.

Let me guess...you're the one that isn't?
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Re: Rant: Why can't people make tight turns?
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2019, 03:13:26 PM »

40,000 do not die annually.  That was just for 2017.

It varies, & about half are due to drunk drivers and/or pedestrians.

I'm not sure how you're arriving at your second point, unless pedestrians are made of diamond and cause the car to crumple upon hitting them. Car vs ped collisions are obviously weighted in the favor of the car (no pun intended).

OK, to show how absurd Bruce's point actually is, here's a few more pieces of information.

1. There are about 40,000 deaths on the highway every year.  That's a combination of all motorists, passengers, pedestrians, and bicyclists who get killed.

2. The number has been relatively stubborn as a raw number since 1970.

3. The US population has increased from 200 million in 1970 to 330 million currently.  Thus, that 40,000 number is much lower per capita today than it was then.  0.02% of the population in 1970 to 0.012% of the population currently.  If the dangers that Bruce is focusing on are so bad, then that number should be about 0.02% today, or about 66,000 people annually.  Obviously, 26,000 people more are not dying on our roads in any way, shape, or form, thus total deaths per capita have fallen.

4. Crashes of all types that involve alcohol range from about 20% (Utah) to about 50% (several states).  These crashes involve not just drivers under the influence, but bicyclists and pedestrians too.  For example, a drunk pedestrian running out onto a freeway and getting killed is an alcohol-related crash, even though none of the drivers were drunk.

5. Crashes per million and billion vehicle miles traveled (and possibly walked and bicycled) have also undergone a dramatic reduction between 1970 and 2019.

6. As for most pedestrian and bicyclist deaths, these occur during the overnight hours.  Speaking from a driving perspective on this, it's stunning how many choose to ride without proper lights and reflectors, and how many choose to walk in the street when there's a perfectly good sidewalk alongside.  It's also stunning how many that choose to do these things wear dark, non-reflective clothing.

Thus, Bruce's points are fairly moot.

I found the most recent data available, which was from the year 2017, and compared it with your numbers:

1. 37,133 killed in 2017 (-1.8% from 2016)
2. overall crashes have gone up in the last 5 years but are finally trending back down
3. per 100M VMT, the fatality rate has gone from 3.35 (1975) to 1.16 (2017)
4. alcohol-related crashes (defined as deaths in a collision where an operator of a vehicle or motorcycle had a BAC of .08+) was 29% of all road deaths, the lowest amount since 1982
5. bit of a rehash of point 3?
6. most are killed at night, yes, but how many roads even have sidewalks? Or bike lanes? It shouldn't be a surprise that cyclists and pedestrians are in the road...there's nowhere else to go. I think it's a bit ridiculous that everyone walking at night should be expected to wear reflective clothing. That's shifting too much of the responsibility on the pedestrian. In fact, it's equal responsibility: drivers have to watch for pedestrians, and pedestrians have to watch for cars. That's the best we can realistically do when there isn't some path for non-car users.

To summarize: overall crashes per 100M VMT are down, and total crashes are down from 2016. So that's good. Pedestrian and bike deaths are about 18% of road deaths. This means that collisions involving drunk operators, plus pedestrians and cyclists, account for 47% of all deaths. But drunk operators still represent a larger portion of the issue than pedestrians or cyclists. I also cannot find any data that suggests 18% of the non-occupant deaths are due to the pedestrian or rider themselves.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 03:16:15 PM by jakeroot »
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