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Author Topic: County seats that aren't town seats (?)  (Read 1597 times)

hbelkins

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2019, 08:34:51 PM »

Did some checking -- as I thought, McCreary County still has no incorporated cities. Whitley City is designated as the county seat, but it's not incorporated. If Wikipedia is to be believed -- always a big if --it's one of two counties in Kentucky where the county seat is not an incorporated city. Boone County is the other. Burlington is the county seat. Wiki says it's not an incorporated city, but also says it was incorporated in 1824 (it does not state when Burlington became unincorporated). There are plenty of incorporated cities in Boone County, but the county seat isn't one of them.
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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2019, 09:32:40 PM »

There are some low-population counties out west where the seat isn't in an incorporated place. For example: Esmeralda, Lincoln, and Nye County in Nevada all have a county seat that is simply an unincorporated community and also a CDP. So technically, there is no lower-order government seat located in the county seat.

(side note: Lincoln is fascinating because there is one incorporated city, but it's not the county seat!)

Not just the low-population counties. Hawaii has no local governments below the county level, so all its county seats are in unincorporated communities, even the City and County of Honolulu which has a population just under a million, which is about two-thirds of the state's population.

Alaska has several consolidated city-boroughs, including for high-population boroughs (Anchorage, Juneau) and very low-population boroughs (Yakutat, Skagway), which do not include any separately-incorporated communities. Lake and Peninsula Borough has several tiny cities, but its borough seat is not only unincorporated, but isn't even in its own borough. It's in neighboring Bristol Bay Borough, which has no incorporated communities, and its own borough seat (Naknek) is in a different unincorporated community than Lake and Peninsula's seat (King Salmon). Then there's the vast Unorganized Borough, which has no borough seat or government separate from the state government, but includes more than a dozen incorporated communities like Nome, Bethel, and Valdez, plus some native communities with their own local governments.
Hilo is not a city?
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Flint1979

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2019, 09:38:00 PM »

I think that the Michigan counties that don't have actual cities as their county seat that there isn't a city in that county at all. I could be wrong but that seems logical to me.

Some Michigan counties that don't have cities as county seats are

Antrim (Bellaire is the seat with no cities in the county).

Baraga (L'Anse is the seat with no cities in the county).

Benzie (Beulah is the seat and there is a city which is Frankfort) Beulah is the seat probably because it's more centrally located in Michigan's smallest county by land area.

Cass (Cassopolis is the seat and Cass County has two cities Niles most of which is in Berrien County and Dowagiac).
Kalkaska (Kalkaska is the seat with no cities in the county).

Keweenaw (Eagle River is the seat with no cities in the county).

Lake (Baldwin is the seat with no cities in the county).

Leelanau (Suttons Bay Township is the seat with only a small portion of Traverse City extending into the county for a city) this is the only township I know of that is a county seat.

Luce (Newberry is the seat with no cities in the county).

Montmorency (Atlanta is the seat with no cities in the county).

Ontonagon (Ontonagon is the seat with no cities in the county).

Oscoda (Mio is the seat with no cities in the county).

Roscommon (Roscommon is the seat with no cities in the county).

St. Joseph (Centreville is the seat with two cities Three Rivers and Sturgis in the county) Centreville hence the name is more centrally located in the county.

Van Buren (Paw Paw is the seat with four cities in the county Bangor, Gobles, Hartford and part of South Haven) Paw Paw is somewhat more centrally located in the county but more east than west.

That's 14 counties that don't have a city as a seat, with 5 of those counties having at least a portion of a city in the county, granted it's a small portion and that city would probably already be serving as another counties seat such as Traverse City extending into Leelanau County but it's also the seat of Grand Traverse County.
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vdeane

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2019, 09:57:22 PM »

Does New England even DO villages?  I can't find anything marked as such in my New England atlas outside of VT and the pieces of NY that happen to be on a page.
When I think of a village I just think of a small group of houses in the middle of nowhere.
In NY those are called Hamlets (contrary to the name, we don't force people in them to speak in iambic pentameter).  Villages here tend to be larger and have incorporated governments that provide additional services and ordinances over whatever town they're in has.
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Flint1979

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2019, 10:31:41 PM »

Does New England even DO villages?  I can't find anything marked as such in my New England atlas outside of VT and the pieces of NY that happen to be on a page.
When I think of a village I just think of a small group of houses in the middle of nowhere.
Well you should see Schaumburg and Arlington Heights, Illinois.
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MantyMadTown

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2019, 10:40:41 PM »

Does New England even DO villages?  I can't find anything marked as such in my New England atlas outside of VT and the pieces of NY that happen to be on a page.
When I think of a village I just think of a small group of houses in the middle of nowhere.
Well you should see Schaumburg and Arlington Heights, Illinois.

It's so weird how villages can be of any size from pretty much a hamlet to the size of large suburbs. Still, Illinois' largest villages are much larger than Wisconsin's. Schaumburg and Arlington Heights both have a population of about 75k, while Menomonee Falls (the largest village in Wisconsin) only has about 35k.
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empirestate

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2019, 11:22:24 PM »

There really is no township seat in Illinois.  The most a township really has is a garage for maintenance in most places.

Even in the big urban townships in Cook County, say?

In Wisconsin villages are separately incorporated from townships, which by definition are unincorporated. So villages cannot be the seat of town government.

And is that of note because all county seats are villages (or cities)? Or are there any unincorporated ones?

In Virginia, a "town" is legally part of the surrounding county, while an independent city is separate from the county and does not have the same legal status as a town. Some county seats are located outside the counties in adjacent independent cities (Albemarle County's is in Charlottesville, for example). Some county seats are located in towns (Loudoun County's is Leesburg). I suppose you might argue that to the extent some of a town's government comes from the county in which it's located, the only Virginia towns that are fully "town seats" are those that are also county seats, but I think that's too much of a technicality because the better way to view it is whether the town's own government (to the extent such exists under state law) is located within the town. Insofar as I'm aware, they all are.

Virginia doesn't have sub-county general purpose governments at all, so the whole concept wouldn't apply there.

For your comment about Michigan, whatever the county seat is that is where the courthouse, jail and everything like that is; the same city has their own city hall or township hall elsewhere. Like Saginaw County, the courthouse and jail are in the same place, the courthouse is at 111 S. Michigan and the jail is at 208 S. Harrison but it's the same complex. Saginaw's city hall however is at 1315 S. Washington about a mile and a half away.

I guess you could say Wayne County has their courthouse and city hall in the same building but they aren't combined together.

This…this all isn't quite on the point. If you're talking about different buildings in the same municipality, that's automatically not an example. Examples will always be two different localities.

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Ingham County's seat is Mason but there are several county offices in Lansing, the state capital which is much larger than Mason.

That's correct, which is why it's the prime example: because Mason, and not Lansing, is the county seat; but Lansing, not Mason, is the state capital.

I would have to do some research, but it's my understanding that at least for a time, at least one county of Kentucky had no incorporated cities within its boundary, which meant the county seat was not in a "town" but rather in a recognized named community.

And was that recognized named a community a different one from where the township (or whatever minor civil divisions Kentucky may once have had) government sat?

An obvious example to me is New York City, in which the five boroughs are in separate counties but there is only one City Hall (which I assume is in Manhattan). The other four boroughs would fall in this category.

No, the counties all have seats that coincide with the borough hall locations (or else the county/borough is the seat of itself).

There are some low-population counties out west where the seat isn't in an incorporated place. For example: Esmeralda, Lincoln, and Nye County in Nevada all have a county seat that is simply an unincorporated community and also a CDP. So technically, there is no lower-order government seat located in the county seat.

But then there is no lower-order government seat elsewhere, either—because there is no lower-order government. So the western states won't qualify for this.

Did some checking -- as I thought, McCreary County still has no incorporated cities. Whitley City is designated as the county seat, but it's not incorporated. If Wikipedia is to be believed -- always a big if --it's one of two counties in Kentucky where the county seat is not an incorporated city. Boone County is the other. Burlington is the county seat. Wiki says it's not an incorporated city, but also says it was incorporated in 1824 (it does not state when Burlington became unincorporated). There are plenty of incorporated cities in Boone County, but the county seat isn't one of them.

But Kentucky no longer has townships or anything like that, does it? (If it does, they certainly don't have governments.)

Some Michigan counties that don't have cities as county seats are
[ list snipped ]
That's 14 counties that don't have a city as a seat, with 5 of those counties having at least a portion of a city in the county, granted it's a small portion and that city would probably already be serving as another counties seat such as Traverse City extending into Leelanau County but it's also the seat of Grand Traverse County.

And are all of those county seats different localities from the governments of the underlying townships are located?
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MantyMadTown

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2019, 01:15:25 AM »

In Wisconsin villages are separately incorporated from townships, which by definition are unincorporated. So villages cannot be the seat of town government.

And is that of note because all county seats are villages (or cities)? Or are there any unincorporated ones?

I said town government, not county government. As for county seats, there are two counties I can think of where the county seat is not incorporated, and they are the two least populous counties in Wisconsin. There is Menominee County, which is coterminous with the town of Menominee and the Menominee reservation, whose county seat is the CDP of Keshena. The other county I can think of is Florence County, whose county seat is the CDP of Florence, which is located inside the town of Florence. I'm guessing that it's also the seat of its town's government. All other counties either have an incorporated village or city as their county seat (and the standard for incorporation as a city is very low, some of them have a population of less than 1,000!)

That being said, neither Florence or Keshena are incorporated, so they can still be the seat of their town's government. If they were incorporated, then they can only control the government within their municipal boundaries, which means they cannot be the seat of the surrounding town's government. They are two separate entities.

Because of this, I will point out that like in many other states, cities and villages can annex land in the surrounding area if it's not incorporated, so many suburbs have incorporated as cities or villages to avoid annexation by neighboring communities.
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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2019, 06:13:08 AM »

South Bucks has its seat in a small business park in a small village (Tatling End) that's part of Denham civil parish*. There's 2 towns in the district (which are bigger than a lot of US counties, especially eastern ones - S Bucks is small at 70,000 with only 24 of 326 districts less populated) - Denham isn't one of them and the parish council has its seat in the village of Denham.

*Civil parish councils can become town councils if they vote to - as of a few years ago (before it was by being granted town status by the Crown) - but none have. 'Town' is off brand (real estate, etc) for these places - they like the word 'Village'.
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Brandon

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2019, 07:03:07 AM »

There really is no township seat in Illinois.  The most a township really has is a garage for maintenance in most places.

Even in the big urban townships in Cook County, say?

You're just not quite getting it, are you?  Most townships are merely doing road maintenance of small roads in unincorporated areas that are not county highways.  Even the ones in Cook County.  Only a few do anything more such as senior services (DuPage Township, Will County) or have property tax assessors (DuPage County, Kane County), but the property tax assessments are delegated to them by the county assessor.

There is no concept of a town or township "seat" in Illinois.
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Flint1979

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2019, 07:03:15 AM »

There really is no township seat in Illinois.  The most a township really has is a garage for maintenance in most places.

Even in the big urban townships in Cook County, say?

In Wisconsin villages are separately incorporated from townships, which by definition are unincorporated. So villages cannot be the seat of town government.

And is that of note because all county seats are villages (or cities)? Or are there any unincorporated ones?

In Virginia, a "town" is legally part of the surrounding county, while an independent city is separate from the county and does not have the same legal status as a town. Some county seats are located outside the counties in adjacent independent cities (Albemarle County's is in Charlottesville, for example). Some county seats are located in towns (Loudoun County's is Leesburg). I suppose you might argue that to the extent some of a town's government comes from the county in which it's located, the only Virginia towns that are fully "town seats" are those that are also county seats, but I think that's too much of a technicality because the better way to view it is whether the town's own government (to the extent such exists under state law) is located within the town. Insofar as I'm aware, they all are.

Virginia doesn't have sub-county general purpose governments at all, so the whole concept wouldn't apply there.

For your comment about Michigan, whatever the county seat is that is where the courthouse, jail and everything like that is; the same city has their own city hall or township hall elsewhere. Like Saginaw County, the courthouse and jail are in the same place, the courthouse is at 111 S. Michigan and the jail is at 208 S. Harrison but it's the same complex. Saginaw's city hall however is at 1315 S. Washington about a mile and a half away.

I guess you could say Wayne County has their courthouse and city hall in the same building but they aren't combined together.

This…this all isn't quite on the point. If you're talking about different buildings in the same municipality, that's automatically not an example. Examples will always be two different localities.

Quote
Ingham County's seat is Mason but there are several county offices in Lansing, the state capital which is much larger than Mason.

That's correct, which is why it's the prime example: because Mason, and not Lansing, is the county seat; but Lansing, not Mason, is the state capital.

I would have to do some research, but it's my understanding that at least for a time, at least one county of Kentucky had no incorporated cities within its boundary, which meant the county seat was not in a "town" but rather in a recognized named community.

And was that recognized named a community a different one from where the township (or whatever minor civil divisions Kentucky may once have had) government sat?

An obvious example to me is New York City, in which the five boroughs are in separate counties but there is only one City Hall (which I assume is in Manhattan). The other four boroughs would fall in this category.

No, the counties all have seats that coincide with the borough hall locations (or else the county/borough is the seat of itself).

There are some low-population counties out west where the seat isn't in an incorporated place. For example: Esmeralda, Lincoln, and Nye County in Nevada all have a county seat that is simply an unincorporated community and also a CDP. So technically, there is no lower-order government seat located in the county seat.

But then there is no lower-order government seat elsewhere, either—because there is no lower-order government. So the western states won't qualify for this.

Did some checking -- as I thought, McCreary County still has no incorporated cities. Whitley City is designated as the county seat, but it's not incorporated. If Wikipedia is to be believed -- always a big if --it's one of two counties in Kentucky where the county seat is not an incorporated city. Boone County is the other. Burlington is the county seat. Wiki says it's not an incorporated city, but also says it was incorporated in 1824 (it does not state when Burlington became unincorporated). There are plenty of incorporated cities in Boone County, but the county seat isn't one of them.

But Kentucky no longer has townships or anything like that, does it? (If it does, they certainly don't have governments.)

Some Michigan counties that don't have cities as county seats are
[ list snipped ]
That's 14 counties that don't have a city as a seat, with 5 of those counties having at least a portion of a city in the county, granted it's a small portion and that city would probably already be serving as another counties seat such as Traverse City extending into Leelanau County but it's also the seat of Grand Traverse County.

And are all of those county seats different localities from the governments of the underlying townships are located?
Are you implying that the township has no form of government at all? I don't think that sort of thing exists in this state. Every township has at least some form of government, a village remains a part of the township from which it was formed so even a village is still a part of the township. Why would the county seat not have it's own form of government though? Like Mason for example, that's a city and of course it has it's own city hall and everything.

The thing with Mason being the county seat is that when Michigan was seeking a new capital which at the time was in Detroit so Mason was built as an attempt to locate the state capital there. Lansing was still a township in the middle of nowhere at that time and for some reason they chose Lansing over Mason as the state capital and Mason got to be the county seat instead. Mason is more centrally located in the county than Lansing is, however yes Lansing is a much larger city now. Back in 1850 though the population was only 1,299 and Mason's 1860 population was 363 so Mason being the seat is odd.
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Flint1979

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2019, 07:08:12 AM »

I can do Saginaw County in a nutshell. Saginaw is the seat of Saginaw County and the Courthouse for Saginaw County and the City Hall for the city of Saginaw are not in the same place but are still in the same city. On this Google Maps view you have the Saginaw County Courthouse at the corner of Michigan and Court on the west side of the river, now the Saginaw City Hall is on Washington between Remington and Holland on the east side of the river.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4202321,-83.9667259,15z
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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2019, 10:49:38 AM »

In Wisconsin villages are separately incorporated from townships, which by definition are unincorporated. So villages cannot be the seat of town government.

And is that of note because all county seats are villages (or cities)? Or are there any unincorporated ones?

I said town government, not county government.

You did indeed, and then I said county government, because we're looking for examples of county seats that aren't town seats (yet potentially could be). If all of the county seats were villages, then none of them could potentially be town seats, and your observation would demonstrate that Wisconsin has no examples.

Quote
As for county seats, there are two counties I can think of where the county seat is not incorporated, and they are the two least populous counties in Wisconsin. There is Menominee County, which is coterminous with the town of Menominee and the Menominee reservation, whose county seat is the CDP of Keshena. The other county I can think of is Florence County, whose county seat is the CDP of Florence, which is located inside the town of Florence. I'm guessing that it's also the seat of its town's government. All other counties either have an incorporated village or city as their county seat (and the standard for incorporation as a city is very low, some of them have a population of less than 1,000!)

That being said, neither Florence or Keshena are incorporated, so they can still be the seat of their town's government. If they were incorporated, then they can only control the government within their municipal boundaries, which means they cannot be the seat of the surrounding town's government. They are two separate entities.

Menominee is interesting, as the town and county are also coterminous with the Indian reservation. I assume they're all governed as a single consolidated entity?

There really is no township seat in Illinois.  The most a township really has is a garage for maintenance in most places.

Even in the big urban townships in Cook County, say?

You're just not quite getting it, are you?

Maybe it's because you haven't answered the question yet. ;-)

Quote
Even the ones in Cook County.

There, you answered the question. Now I get it. See how easy that was?

EDIT: Except, maybe I don't get it… Looking at some of the larger townships, they do indeed have municipal offices and a slate of elected officials—a supervisor and board of trustees—and often have websites just like their equivalent entities in New York or Wisconsin. In fact, the election of a supervisor and township board seems to be a legal requirement for all townships under the Illinois code. So, wherever those elected boards meet would be the seat of government for that township. Just a couple examples:

DuPage Twp has its seat at Bolingbrook
Thornton Twp has its seat at South Holland
Joliet Twp has its seat at Joliet—notably for the topic, this is also the Will County seat; so that wouldn't qualify as an example.
Milton Twp has its seat at Wheaton—which, again, is the DuPage County seat, so it's another non-example.

And so forth. So, the concept definitely would apply in Illinois, just as it does in New York or Wisconsin, etc. What do I still not get?

Quote
There is no concept of a town or township "seat" in Illinois.

There isn't in New York, either—that's why I had to make it up.

Are you implying that the township has no form of government at all?

No, the very opposite. This would only apply to minor civil division that have some kind of government.

Quote
I don't think that sort of thing exists in this state. Every township has at least some form of government, a village remains a part of the township from which it was formed so even a village is still a part of the township.

Just like New York, where my original example is found. So, Michigan may well have some examples.

Quote
Why would the county seat not have it's own form of government though? Like Mason for example, that's a city and of course it has it's own city hall and everything.

Because the county seat wasn't located in a place with its own form of government. Like Carmel, for example—that's an unincorporated hamlet with no defined government of boundaries.

I can do Saginaw County in a nutshell. Saginaw is the seat of Saginaw County and the Courthouse for Saginaw County and the City Hall for the city of Saginaw are not in the same place but are still in the same city.

Right. So Saginaw definitely does not count. (Would any city in Michigan count? Aren't they all independent of the townships?)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 11:51:17 AM by empirestate »
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inkyatari

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2019, 12:19:58 PM »

There really is no township seat in Illinois.  The most a township really has is a garage for maintenance in most places.  Otherwise, the county and the municipality are the basic units of government.

And most of those are in unincorporated areas.  At least around me.
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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2019, 02:31:28 PM »

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Would that not just be the town center?
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 :wow:
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:40:30 PM by webny99 »
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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2019, 02:39:48 PM »

Would that not just be the town center?
Not necessarily. For example, the town board of Sweden, NY sits at the town hall in Brockport, not in Sweden Center.

In this case, and I assume in most cases in Upstate NY, Sweden Center is just that - the geographical center of the town and nothing more. It might not even qualify as a hamlet, just a centrally located junction of two through roads.

Brockport is definitely the town "center" in the more traditional/cultural sense of being a gathering point which is densely populated, holds town events, is home to all the municipal buildings and offices, etc. etc.
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hbelkins

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2019, 02:54:19 PM »

Kentucky does not have townships, and to the best of my knowledge, never has had townships. That's why I find it a bit confusing to drive through Ohio and see intersections with both county and township roads. How do they decide which entity maintains which road?
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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2019, 03:52:35 PM »

Kentucky does not have townships, and to the best of my knowledge, never has had townships. That's why I find it a bit confusing to drive through Ohio and see intersections with both county and township roads. How do they decide which entity maintains which road?

How does Kentucky decide whether the state or county maintains a given road?
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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2019, 05:14:48 PM »

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Would that not just be the town center?
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What?
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tchafe1978

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2019, 05:29:16 PM »

Wisconsin doesn't have such a thing as a "town seat". The township government is just located wherever the town hall hall happens to be located. Sometimes it's in an unincorporated community within the township, sometimes it's in a village or city that would be in that township, or sometimes it's along a town road out in the middle of nowhere. It's not defined as a seat of the government the way a county seat would be.
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Flint1979

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2019, 05:35:07 PM »

The county seat is the government center of the county, where the courthouse and jail and county offices are located. It doesn't make any difference if the city that's the county seat has it's own form of government at the city, township or village level it's the government center for that county such as the Capital of the county. Lansing is where the State Capital is located and also a city in Michigan but there is also a city hall, why wouldn't there be? The courthouse isn't the city hall and the city hall isn't the courthouse.
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MantyMadTown

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2019, 01:19:18 AM »

In Wisconsin villages are separately incorporated from townships, which by definition are unincorporated. So villages cannot be the seat of town government.

And is that of note because all county seats are villages (or cities)? Or are there any unincorporated ones?

I said town government, not county government.

You did indeed, and then I said county government, because we're looking for examples of county seats that aren't town seats (yet potentially could be). If all of the county seats were villages, then none of them could potentially be town seats, and your observation would demonstrate that Wisconsin has no examples.

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As for county seats, there are two counties I can think of where the county seat is not incorporated, and they are the two least populous counties in Wisconsin. There is Menominee County, which is coterminous with the town of Menominee and the Menominee reservation, whose county seat is the CDP of Keshena. The other county I can think of is Florence County, whose county seat is the CDP of Florence, which is located inside the town of Florence. I'm guessing that it's also the seat of its town's government. All other counties either have an incorporated village or city as their county seat (and the standard for incorporation as a city is very low, some of them have a population of less than 1,000!)

That being said, neither Florence or Keshena are incorporated, so they can still be the seat of their town's government. If they were incorporated, then they can only control the government within their municipal boundaries, which means they cannot be the seat of the surrounding town's government. They are two separate entities.

Menominee is interesting, as the town and county are also coterminous with the Indian reservation. I assume they're all governed as a single consolidated entity?

That's what I said.

Wisconsin doesn't have such a thing as a "town seat". The township government is just located wherever the town hall hall happens to be located. Sometimes it's in an unincorporated community within the township, sometimes it's in a village or city that would be in that township, or sometimes it's along a town road out in the middle of nowhere. It's not defined as a seat of the government the way a county seat would be.

Usually it wouldn't make sense for a village or city to be the seat of town government, because they're separate from towns. I don't know of any examples where a village or city also contains the seat of its surrounding town's government.
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empirestate

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2019, 01:58:16 AM »

There really is no township seat in Illinois.  The most a township really has is a garage for maintenance in most places.  Otherwise, the county and the municipality are the basic units of government.

And most of those are in unincorporated areas.  At least around me.

That's fine; note that the two places in my first example are also unincorporated. But the township boards probably don't meet at the highway barn. :-P (or maybe they do?)

Would that not just be the town center?
Not necessarily. For example, the town board of Sweden, NY sits at the town hall in Brockport, not in Sweden Center.

In this case, and I assume in most cases in Upstate NY, Sweden Center is just that - the geographical center of the town and nothing more. It might not even qualify as a hamlet, just a centrally located junction of two through roads.

Sure, it's a hamlet; there's usually a church and a cluster of houses. That's about all you need. The name "Center" usually just means the hamlet is being distinguished from other hamlets: Sweden Center, as opposed to West Sweden; Parma Center as opposed to Parma Corners; Penfield Center as opposed to just Penfield. If the principal hamlet is also the central one, like say Rush, then you don't need "Center"; it's just the hamlet of Rush.

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Brockport is definitely the town "center" in the more traditional/cultural sense of being a gathering point which is densely populated, holds town events, is home to all the municipal buildings and offices, etc. etc.

Exactly, that's the idea—things aren't necessarily centered at the town center.

Wisconsin doesn't have such a thing as a "town seat". The township government is just located wherever the town hall hall happens to be located. Sometimes it's in an unincorporated community within the township, sometimes it's in a village or city that would be in that township, or sometimes it's along a town road out in the middle of nowhere.

No state has such a thing; that's why I'm inventing it, and defining it as the location where the town government sits, the same way a county seat is where the county government sits.

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It's not defined as a seat of the government the way a county seat would be.

It is now. :-)

The county seat is the government center of the county, where the courthouse and jail and county offices are located. It doesn't make any difference if the city that's the county seat has it's own form of government at the city, township or village level it's the government center for that county such as the Capital of the county. Lansing is where the State Capital is located and also a city in Michigan but there is also a city hall, why wouldn't there be? The courthouse isn't the city hall and the city hall isn't the courthouse.

All correct. So, what is this meant to illustrate, with respect to the question?

Menominee is interesting, as the town and county are also coterminous with the Indian reservation. I assume they're all governed as a single consolidated entity?

That's what I said.

The first sentence is, yes. Would you also say the second?

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Usually it wouldn't make sense for a village or city to be the seat of town government, because they're separate from towns. I don't know of any examples where a village or city also contains the seat of its surrounding town's government.

No, not in Wisconsin; nor in Pennsylvania, for the same reason. So if there's an example in Wisconsin, it'll be an unincorporated place.
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inkyatari

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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2019, 09:14:47 AM »

There really is no township seat in Illinois.  The most a township really has is a garage for maintenance in most places.  Otherwise, the county and the municipality are the basic units of government.

And most of those are in unincorporated areas.  At least around me.

That's fine; note that the two places in my first example are also unincorporated. But the township boards probably don't meet at the highway barn. :-P (or maybe they do?)


Not sure, but I'm certain many of the more rural ones do.
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Re: County seats that aren't town seats (?)
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2019, 10:43:29 AM »

In WV, there are two county subdivisions which are, weirdly, called the same thing, districts.  None really have a government.

The original districts, which never change, generally have names and are used today only for tax records and in deeds.  Until 1976, these districts elected a constable (totally untrained guy with full police powers, paid by %age of the fines) and a JP (totally untrained guy playing judge, paid by a %age of the fines and by a %age of the filing fees).  No actual government.  The JP/Constable system was abolished in 1976.

The County Commission and the Board of Education have geographic dispersal, meaning only one from each district, although elected country wide.  They used to use the same unchanging districts, but that was ruled unconstitutional because the populations were different, so now the county is divided into three districts which are just called 1 2 and 3, and redistricted after each Census.  They have no government, it is just to insure that the county commissioners and school board members are from each part of the county.  No government and certainly no "seat". 

Municipal corporations are divided into four classes based on population.  Classes I II and III are "cities" while IV is a "town" or a "village".  The powers of each class get less as you go down.  Of road interest is a Class IV is not allowed to use radar, but is not required to have trained policemen.  Most exist just to write speeding tickets with untrained cops using a stopwatch that make minimum wage.

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