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Author Topic: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards  (Read 3097 times)

Beltway

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2019, 01:41:18 PM »

Is I-44 in Oklahoma a violation of the rule that new Interstates cannot be toll roads, or was it grandfathered?
It was applied to the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes in the 1960s, and then extended down to the Bailey Turnpike in the 1980s. So probably both.
Similar happened w/portions of I-95 in both DE & MD (Delaware Turnpike & JFK Memorial Highway respectively).  Even though such were designated as part of the Interstate System from day one (other, older tolled facilities were grandfathered in); such were constructed as toll roads as a financial means of getting such built sooner rather than later.

The H.E. Bailey Turnpike looks like an addition to the original Interstate Highway System.  It doesn't even connect to another Interstate highway at its western end.
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Scott M. Savage
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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2019, 02:08:57 PM »

Is I-44 in Oklahoma a violation of the rule that new Interstates cannot be toll roads, or was it grandfathered?
It was applied to the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes in the 1960s, and then extended down to the Bailey Turnpike in the 1980s. So probably both.
Similar happened w/portions of I-95 in both DE & MD (Delaware Turnpike & JFK Memorial Highway respectively).  Even though such were designated as part of the Interstate System from day one (other, older tolled facilities were grandfathered in); such were constructed as toll roads as a financial means of getting such built sooner rather than later.

The H.E. Bailey Turnpike looks like an addition to the original Interstate Highway System.  It doesn't even connect to another Interstate highway at its western end.

That’s because it is — I-44 was only extended past I-35 in 1982, replacing the north half of I-240 in the process.
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froggie

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2019, 02:33:35 PM »

Is I-44 in Oklahoma a violation of the rule that new Interstates cannot be toll roads, or was it grandfathered?

Actually, Federal law for the past several years has allowed "new Interstates" to be toll roads.
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hbelkins

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2019, 03:08:17 PM »

I don't really have an issue with the Cumberland section of I-68, except for the underposted speed limit. Only time I drive the posted speed limit there is if it's raining. Otherwise, I'm comfortable doing 50-55 through it. In this case, you have a modern freeway on either side of a one-mile stretch, so I'm not going to get too worked up over it. Neither am I concerned about the Kentucky parkways that might have medians not quite as wide as some rural interstates.

Probably the one I'm most familiar with that bothers me is I-70 between Washington and New Stanton, with the stop signs at the end of on-ramps.

Lots of people don't like I-78, but that one never bothered me, either. I never figured out what was so unsafe about it.
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Beltway

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2019, 05:15:48 PM »

I don't really have an issue with the Cumberland section of I-68, except for the underposted speed limit. Only time I drive the posted speed limit there is if it's raining. Otherwise, I'm comfortable doing 50-55 through it. In this case, you have a modern freeway on either side of a one-mile stretch, so I'm not going to get too worked up over it.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com/I68_MD_CT.jpg

It is winding and has no shoulders and has a number of urban ramps.  I can't really say that it is underposted.
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Scott M. Savage
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bing101

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2019, 06:04:28 PM »

I-580 between Oakland and Hayward does not meet interstate standards due to a truck ban between I-880 interchange to I-238.

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sprjus4

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2019, 09:52:50 PM »

I-73 at Asheboro, NC
The only real section that violates interstate standards is the left exit, if you even want to call it that. It's not up to "ideal" standards, though it doesn't have any substandard features. It has 12 foot lanes, 10 foot shoulders, barrier median. The left exit isn't prohibited under interstate standards, the median is permitted, etc.

What's substandard about it? Ideally, the exit be on the right, a grassy median, etc. but it's not against minimum standards.

Now, if you want to talk substandard, I-73 south of this location still has 4 foot shoulders! NCDOT signed it I-73 / I-74 and still hasn't added 10 foot outside shoulders yet. That's definitely substandard and against interstate standards.
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Beltway

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2019, 09:59:32 PM »

I-73 at Asheboro, NC
The only real section that violates interstate standards is the left exit, if you even want to call it that. It's not up to "ideal" standards, though it doesn't have any substandard features. It has 12 foot lanes, 10 foot shoulders, barrier median. The left exit isn't prohibited under interstate standards, the median is permitted, etc.

The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.  THSDOT needed to spend $345 million to bring that section up to full Interstate standards, but only spent $20 million.  It should not have been signed as I-73.
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Scott M. Savage
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2019, 10:05:21 PM »

The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.
It may well be, though it still meets interstate highway standards. There's no where defined where it states left exits are prohibited on the interstate system. They were to spend the $345 million to bring the section up to ideal standards for safety reasons, but it's not prohibited.

The segment I described that has only 4 foot outer shoulders on the other hand is a clear violation, as the standards state a 10 foot outer paved shoulder must be provided.
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roadman65

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2019, 10:25:20 PM »

Has anyone mentioned I-78 on either side of the Holland Tunnel?

Definitely:

I-78 in New Jersey.  In Jersey City it becomes two surface streets. 12th Street EB from Jersey Avenue to the Holland Tunnel.  Then Boyle Plaza WB from the tunnel exit to the viaduct beginning at Jersey Avenue.
Any Interstate within New York City limits. Narrow lanes and narrow shoulders and suicide entrance ramps.
Also in PA I-78 is not up to full standards from PA 100 to PA 61 west of Allentown.  That was part of US 22 before the interstate system and was a four lane expressway with at grade intersections.
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Beltway

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2019, 11:19:17 PM »

The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.
It may well be, though it still meets interstate highway standards. There's no where defined where it states left exits are prohibited on the interstate system. They were to spend the $345 million to bring the section up to ideal standards for safety reasons, but it's not prohibited.

There is no Interstate standard for pavement thickness, but a 4 inch thickness would obviously not last long under Interstate highway traffic volumes and large truck percentages.

If there is nothing wrong with left ramps (not just exits) then why not have them at every interchange?  They are clearly not standard as seen in their rarity and safety issues.

Just because something is not spelled out in black and white doesn't mean that it meets Interstate standards.
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Scott M. Savage
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vdeane

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2019, 01:04:36 PM »

The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.
It may well be, though it still meets interstate highway standards. There's no where defined where it states left exits are prohibited on the interstate system. They were to spend the $345 million to bring the section up to ideal standards for safety reasons, but it's not prohibited.

There is no Interstate standard for pavement thickness, but a 4 inch thickness would obviously not last long under Interstate highway traffic volumes and large truck percentages.

If there is nothing wrong with left ramps (not just exits) then why not have them at every interchange?  They are clearly not standard as seen in their rarity and safety issues.

Just because something is not spelled out in black and white doesn't mean that it meets Interstate standards.
I'm pretty sure sprjus4 is talking about the FHWA regulations on the minimum design standards allowable for an interstate highway unless grandfathered in, NOT what one would ideally look like.  Unless I completely misread the point of this thread, it's for outright violations of the regulations, not stuff that is merely below average.
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kphoger

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2019, 03:01:06 PM »

it's for outright violations of the regulations, not stuff that is merely below average.

Half the Interstate system is below average.
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2019, 04:54:41 PM »

The left hand terminals of that interchange are monstrously substandard, and unsafe as well.
It may well be, though it still meets interstate highway standards. There's no where defined where it states left exits are prohibited on the interstate system. They were to spend the $345 million to bring the section up to ideal standards for safety reasons, but it's not prohibited.

There is no Interstate standard for pavement thickness, but a 4 inch thickness would obviously not last long under Interstate highway traffic volumes and large truck percentages.

If there is nothing wrong with left ramps (not just exits) then why not have them at every interchange?  They are clearly not standard as seen in their rarity and safety issues.

Just because something is not spelled out in black and white doesn't mean that it meets Interstate standards.
I'm pretty sure sprjus4 is talking about the FHWA regulations on the minimum design standards allowable for an interstate highway unless grandfathered in, NOT what one would ideally look like.  Unless I completely misread the point of this thread, it's for outright violations of the regulations, not stuff that is merely below average.
Pretty much. This highway was built in the early 60s as a US 220 bypass, and was grandfathered in the system back in 2014. It used to have a raised 22 foot concrete median, and no shoulders. At least they replaced it with barrier in the median, some left shoulder, and paved a full outer shoulder.

Of course they shouldn't be built in new construction. The interchange was built apart of 60s construction, when left exits were acceptable, just like a lot of current interstate highways. Should we remove their designations until they are corrected?
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sparker

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2019, 05:58:08 PM »

For about 55 years after it was built ca. 1959, I-80 from Colfax east to Yuba Gap, CA lacked any inner shoulders (much less the 4' Interstate minimum); it was 2+2 with (originally) a steel beam barrier, later replaced by a K-rail.  The substandard segment has since shrunk to about the first 3 miles east of Colfax itself to approximately where the twin UP trestles cross over the freeway.  East of there, the median has been brought out to about the minimum; some of that length of widened median was part of a project to add a truck climbing lane EB.  Coincidentally, a large paved area has been constructed south of the traffic lanes and gradually sloped up the adjacent hillside; this could be for either hillside ground stabilization or even snow management.
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vdeane

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2019, 08:47:41 PM »

Pretty much. This highway was built in the early 60s as a US 220 bypass, and was grandfathered in the system back in 2014. It used to have a raised 22 foot concrete median, and no shoulders. At least they replaced it with barrier in the median, some left shoulder, and paved a full outer shoulder.
Interesting... I thought FHWA had stopped grandfathering in newly designated interstate highways?
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sprjus4

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2019, 09:47:50 PM »

Pretty much. This highway was built in the early 60s as a US 220 bypass, and was grandfathered in the system back in 2014. It used to have a raised 22 foot concrete median, and no shoulders. At least they replaced it with barrier in the median, some left shoulder, and paved a full outer shoulder.
Interesting... I thought FHWA had stopped grandfathering in newly designated interstate highways?
Certain sections of older freeways can be incorporated. Long bridges with a right shoulder at least 3 feet wide can be incorporated, substandard features such as left exits (though still technically not against interstate standards), etc.

If an existing freeway is serving fine without any issues, there's no point to completely reconstruct it just to have "ideal" and "modern" designs. This is why these substandard, yet workable features can still be incorporated.
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Beltway

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2019, 11:20:56 PM »

Pretty much. This highway was built in the early 60s as a US 220 bypass, and was grandfathered in the system back in 2014. It used to have a raised 22 foot concrete median, and no shoulders. At least they replaced it with barrier in the median, some left shoulder, and paved a full outer shoulder.
Interesting... I thought FHWA had stopped grandfathering in newly designated interstate highways?
Certain sections of older freeways can be incorporated. Long bridges with a right shoulder at least 3 feet wide can be incorporated, substandard features such as left exits (though still technically not against interstate standards), etc.
If an existing freeway is serving fine without any issues, there's no point to completely reconstruct it just to have "ideal" and "modern" designs. This is why these substandard, yet workable features can still be incorporated.

Depends on the definition of "serving fine without any issues".  They shouldn't be accepted into a 21st century Interstate highway just because some local politician gets his jollies by the red-white-and-blue sign.
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Scott M. Savage
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thspfc

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2019, 02:17:44 PM »

I-180 in Illinois violates the general standard of being important.
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Hurricane Rex

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2019, 03:22:13 PM »

In response to Brandon: I-82 also violates the numbering standard by primarily being a N/S interstate instead of E/W interstate (caused by the original plan to come from Tacoma and over Naches Pass).

In response to KP Hoger: I will admit that I haven't been through there since September, so my memory might be a little foggy. I'm also not going through a good time in my life right now in all aspects. All I remember was it was around the Rooster Rock area (if it exists). It might not be against standards but I thought it was.

Did anyone mention the Interstate bridge or Marqum bridge yet? Both have narrower lanes, and no shoulders. Also the Freemont Bridge is borderline but I think it makes the cut of being standard.

And there are no plans to widen the I-82 bridge.

And can I add I-5 in the Willamette Valley for that ridiculous 65T60 limit? :bigass:

LG-TP260

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roadman65

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2019, 09:58:19 PM »

Since the I-280 and NJ 21 interchange project is completed, is I-280 now finally up to standards non widthstanding the Stickle Drawbridge?
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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2019, 06:42:48 AM »

I-180 in Illinois violates the general standard of being important.

But it's still up to interstate standards, though.


And can I add I-5 in the Willamette Valley for that ridiculous 65T60 limit? :bigass:

LG-TP260

Sure, go, ahead. :nod:
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23skidoo

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2019, 10:39:55 AM »

I-75 on the Mackinac Bridge and on 5he exit to itself in downtown Detroit. Nothing else I can really think of in Michigan.

I suspect the curve in I-75 at 9 mile in Hazel Park doesn't meet FHWA standards. There's been some serious accidents there. Currently, there's a section where you can't legally change lanes because of the tightness of the curve.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 10:42:12 AM by 23skidoo »
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Flint1979

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2019, 11:02:50 AM »

I-75 on the Mackinac Bridge and on 5he exit to itself in downtown Detroit. Nothing else I can really think of in Michigan.

I suspect the curve in I-75 at 9 mile in Hazel Park doesn't meet FHWA standards. There's been some serious accidents there. Currently, there's a section where you can't legally change lanes because of the tightness of the curve.
I think that curve is up to interstate standards but it slows down to 50 or 55 I can't remember which right now but you can't change lanes on the curve the Big Beaver curve is like that too well at least for now it's under construction right now.
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Flint1979

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Re: Interstates that violate Interstate Highway Standards
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2019, 11:04:19 AM »

As far as the solid white lines go that is just discouraging you from changing lanes it doesn't mean that you can't change lanes I think we had a discussion and another post about an S curve on US-131 in downtown Grand Rapids.
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