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Author Topic: Do any of these highways deserve to be removed?  (Read 2116 times)

MNHighwayMan

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Re: Do any of these highways deserve to be removed?
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2019, 01:51:05 AM »

You characterized the CNU as a "special interest group."  That is where I disagree.

Lobbies with largely a singular interest, yet isn't a "special interest group."

Okay. :rolleyes:
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hbelkins

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Re: Do any of these highways deserve to be removed?
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2019, 07:32:51 PM »

You characterized the CNU as a "special interest group."  That is where I disagree.

Lobbies with largely a singular interest, yet isn't a "special interest group."

Okay. :rolleyes:

"Special interest" and "special interest group" are used as pejoratives, but every advocacy group by definition is a special interest group. And for every special interest group, there are usually one or more equal and opposite special interest groups.
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Beltway

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Re: Do any of these highways deserve to be removed?
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2019, 09:34:51 PM »

You characterized the CNU as a "special interest group."  That is where I disagree.
Lobbies with largely a singular interest, yet isn't a "special interest group."  Okay. :rolleyes:
"Special interest" and "special interest group" are used as pejoratives, but every advocacy group by definition is a special interest group. And for every special interest group, there are usually one or more equal and opposite special interest groups.

I have heard the term "advocacy group" used as a pejorative, as well.
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Scott M. Savage
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Bruce

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Re: Do any of these highways deserve to be removed?
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2019, 08:59:22 PM »

Relevant pop-sci video from Grist looking at Portland's Harbor Drive, SF's Embarcadero, and Seattle's Alaskan Way Viaduct.


And yes, the traffic apocalypse in Seattle did not happen. But we are seeing bigger backups thanks to the buses leaving the transit tunnel, which carried more people than the viaduct did anyway...

Rothman

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Re: Do any of these highways deserve to be removed?
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2019, 09:32:50 PM »

So...moving more people at a slower speed.  Gotcha.
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Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Gnutella

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Re: Do any of these highways deserve to be removed?
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2019, 01:46:32 AM »

...not to say that there is no merit to mixed-use developments and promoting transit and the like, but a decent number of New Urbanists promote them to an extreme.

I call those people "SimCity urbanists." When I used to play SimCity, I'd build my cities with nothing but rail lines simply to enhance the land value and get bigger buildings. SimCity urbanists fail to understand that every city needs room for the "ugly" and utilitarian in order to function properly.

On a somewhat related note, if highways are a psychological barrier and an eyesore, then so are rail lines. There's a reason why less desirable city neighborhoods are said to be located on "the wrong side of the tracks."
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Duke87

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Re: Do any of these highways deserve to be removed?
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2019, 08:00:56 PM »

On a somewhat related note, if highways are a psychological barrier and an eyesore, then so are rail lines. There's a reason why less desirable city neighborhoods are said to be located on "the wrong side of the tracks."

This was a significant motivating factor behind New York City tearing down numerous elevated subway lines from the 1930s through the early 1980s.

Some of the torn down lines were functionally replaced by new underground lines immediately parallel (and in some cases even immediately underneath), but others have not been replaced by anything and have left some neighborhoods less well served by transit than they used to be.

In the 1990s, subway ridership began increasing after decades of decline. New focus has been subsequently put on transit, and the teardowns have thus ceased. The fact that elevated subway lines are noisy and create dark dingy streets underneath them is no longer used as a rallying cry for their removal, and acknowledgment of these concerns is now seemingly overshadowed by regret that maybe some of those lines shouldn't have been torn down because they might be useful if they were still there.


There are parallels to be drawn between the two but also differences. In particular:
- While if you remove a freeway some number of cars are still able to use surface streets, if you remove a train line without a replacement this completely precludes any train service along that general path.
- Elevated subway lines were being removed at a time when ridership was steadily declining, leading to a perhaps logical conclusion that the system was overbuilt and should be pruned to reduce costs (this decline uncoincidentally corresponded with the proliferation of automobiles and with rapid expansion of the suburbs while the population of the city itself was in decline). The use of urban freeways, on the other hand, is not generally declining - if anything it is increasing as city populations continue growing. So where efforts to remove elevated subway lines typically were in response to shifting travel patterns, efforts to remove urban freeways typically attempt to force travel patterns to shift in ways they otherwise would not.
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