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Author Topic: Delaware  (Read 305129 times)

jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1150 on: January 29, 2019, 02:09:30 PM »

If Newark wants meters added wouldnt they just make Deldot install them? Or do they use another company?


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Newark can't make DelDOT do anything. Governments Government agencies and departments can push each other around, but in the they need to have some sort of agreement in place if one agency wants another to do something.

DelDOT probably approves a request from Newark for on street metered parking. Newark is then responsible for the type of meters they want to use, and contracts the installation out to a private contractor.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1151 on: February 07, 2019, 05:24:47 AM »

http://mchhistory.blogspot.com/2011/09/trolley-comes-to-stanton.html?m=1

A good read, & some history that some of us may not know, I wonder why Delaware got rid of the trolleys.


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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1152 on: February 07, 2019, 06:01:51 AM »

I wonder why Delaware got rid of the trolleys.
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When you go back in history, there were quite a number of towns, cities and regions that had trolleys and trains.  As ownership of private vehicles increased, the trolley lines experienced less traffic and were shut down.  In some cases, the rail lines are still under the pavement we drive on today.  Sometimes they're known; sometimes they're unexpectedly hit when a road is being dug up!
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1153 on: February 07, 2019, 06:04:37 AM »

I wonder why Delaware got rid of the trolleys.
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When you go back in history, there were quite a number of towns, cities and regions that had trolleys and trains.  As ownership of private vehicles increased, the trolley lines experienced less traffic and were shut down.  In some cases, the rail lines are still under the pavement we drive on today.  Sometimes they're known; sometimes they're unexpectedly hit when a road is being dug up!
But look at philly! I know philly is way bigger & more populous, but they still use trolleys & are adding some old lines back. I think Delaware messed up by removing every single Trolly track. One to the riverfront would greatly bring more tourists & people for example.


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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1154 on: February 07, 2019, 06:10:38 AM »

I wonder why Delaware got rid of the trolleys.
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Cars.

When you go back in history, there were quite a number of towns, cities and regions that had trolleys and trains.  As ownership of private vehicles increased, the trolley lines experienced less traffic and were shut down.  In some cases, the rail lines are still under the pavement we drive on today.  Sometimes they're known; sometimes they're unexpectedly hit when a road is being dug up!
But look at philly! I know philly is way bigger & more populous, but they still use trolleys & are adding some old lines back. I think Delaware messed up by removing every single Trolly track. One to the riverfront would greatly bring more tourists & people for example.


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Where are tourists going to stay that they would make use of a trolley line to the Riverfront?

Also, they are way slower than most public-transit modes of transportation.  And when there's an option of not driving to a tourist destination, rideshares (Uber/Lyft) are the overwhelming favorite mode of choice.
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Tonytone

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Delaware
« Reply #1155 on: February 07, 2019, 06:23:14 AM »

I wonder why Delaware got rid of the trolleys.
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When you go back in history, there were quite a number of towns, cities and regions that had trolleys and trains.  As ownership of private vehicles increased, the trolley lines experienced less traffic and were shut down.  In some cases, the rail lines are still under the pavement we drive on today.  Sometimes they're known; sometimes they're unexpectedly hit when a road is being dug up!
But look at philly! I know philly is way bigger & more populous, but they still use trolleys & are adding some old lines back. I think Delaware messed up by removing every single Trolly track. One to the riverfront would greatly bring more tourists & people for example.


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Where are tourists going to stay that they would make use of a trolley line to the Riverfront?

Also, they are way slower than most public-transit modes of transportation.  And when there's an option of not driving to a tourist destination, rideshares (Uber/Lyft) are the overwhelming favorite mode of choice.
Well they are building two new hotels at the riverfront, & all the improvements such as the new bridge & roads, will create more development. Now that Im thinking about it buses are basically trackless trolleys, I assume the pro of a trolley is to pass all the bs that you would deal with on the street. Delaware’s roads aren’t even wide enough to handle the traffic of Multiple transit modes, but the app taxis seems to be the best choice, not many taxis in Wilmington anyway.  im surprised they fit the trolly tracks on the streets they did. In fact im shocked that we dont have a subway system, Wilmington is small enough for a compact system that could travel the whole city & some suburbs.


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Alex4897

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1156 on: February 07, 2019, 05:23:35 PM »

In fact im shocked that we dont have a subway system, Wilmington is small enough for a compact system that could travel the whole city & some suburbs.

More like small enough that a subway system isn't remotely feasible for the relatively meager amount of traffic it'd get. No city of Wilmington's stature and population is going to put billions of dollars into a subway system, at least not here in the US.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1157 on: February 07, 2019, 05:24:42 PM »

In fact im shocked that we dont have a subway system, Wilmington is small enough for a compact system that could travel the whole city & some suburbs.

More like small enough that a subway system isn't remotely feasible for the relatively meager amount of traffic it'd get. No city of Wilmington's stature and population is going to put billions of dollars into a subway system, at least not here in the US.
Now Alex, I thought of the same thing, until I found out that boston has a subway system & they are smaller then us right?


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Alex4897

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1158 on: February 07, 2019, 05:26:31 PM »

In fact im shocked that we dont have a subway system, Wilmington is small enough for a compact system that could travel the whole city & some suburbs.

More like small enough that a subway system isn't remotely feasible for the relatively meager amount of traffic it'd get. No city of Wilmington's stature and population is going to put billions of dollars into a subway system, at least not here in the US.
Now Alex, I thought of the same thing, until I found out that boston has a subway system & they are smaller then us right?


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...the Boston metro area has over 4.5x as many people as the entire state of Delaware.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1159 on: February 07, 2019, 05:29:54 PM »

In fact im shocked that we dont have a subway system, Wilmington is small enough for a compact system that could travel the whole city & some suburbs.

More like small enough that a subway system isn't remotely feasible for the relatively meager amount of traffic it'd get. No city of Wilmington's stature and population is going to put billions of dollars into a subway system, at least not here in the US.
Now Alex, I thought of the same thing, until I found out that boston has a subway system & they are smaller then us right?


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...the Boston metro area has over 4.5x as many people as the entire state of Delaware.
Im sorry, I should have done the research. Looking on the map I can see that Boston it self is bigger than the whole state of Delaware, I dont know what I was thinking rhode island size, that being said I still dont think Delaware should have gotten rid of it light rail. This would have added some type of culture That Delaware is trying to build.


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Rothman

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1160 on: February 08, 2019, 09:03:51 AM »

Boston also has the oldest subway in the U.S., so they started the bandwagon.
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PHLBOS

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1161 on: February 08, 2019, 09:39:43 AM »

In fact im shocked that we dont have a subway system, Wilmington is small enough for a compact system that could travel the whole city & some suburbs.
More like small enough that a subway system isn't remotely feasible for the relatively meager amount of traffic it'd get. No city of Wilmington's stature and population is going to put billions of dollars into a subway system, at least not here in the US.
Now Alex, I thought of the same thing, until I found out that Boston has a subway system & they are smaller then us right?
...the Boston metro area has over 4.5x as many people as the entire state of Delaware.
I'm sorry, I should have done the research. Looking on the map I can see that Boston it self is bigger than the whole state of Delaware, I dont know what I was thinking Rhode Island size, that being said I still dont think Delaware should have gotten rid of it light rail. This would have added some type of culture That Delaware is trying to build.
   :-o
A couple things:
1.  To my knowledge, RI does not have any type of light-rail/subway system that I'm aware of... not even in Providence.
2.  I don't know what maps you're looking at to determine the areas but something tells me such aren't at the same scale.

Here are some land areas for comparision:
State of Delaware = 1,981 sq. miles.
State of Rhode Island = 1,212 sq. miles.
City of Wilmington, DE = 16.94 sq. miles
City of Providence, RI = 20.6 sq. miles.
City of Boston, MA = 89.63 sq. miles.

Additionally & as others have stated, land size alone isn't the determining factor for designing & building a light-rail/subway system... it's population of said-city or region.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 05:30:22 PM by PHLBOS »
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seicer

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1162 on: February 08, 2019, 11:35:22 PM »

Population and density are two of the driving factors of the type of mass transit decided upon - whether it's light-rail/subway, heavy-rail, bus rapid transit, and others.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1163 on: February 08, 2019, 11:42:57 PM »

I see, so Wilmington's population falling after 1950 furthermore insured that Trolley lines were removed, and subway plans never even came up, and lastly the city limits were never pushed making The City of Wilmington bigger. That's a shame because if the Wilmington City limits were to be the whole top of Delaware down to Kirkwood Hwy as the stopping point, the population of Wilmington would be 200,000+ right? Maybe even more, if that was the case Id Assume we would have more Transit options.
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Alps

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1164 on: February 09, 2019, 12:25:17 AM »

I see, so Wilmington's population falling after 1950 furthermore insured that Trolley lines were removed, and subway plans never even came up, and lastly the city limits were never pushed making The City of Wilmington bigger. That's a shame because if the Wilmington City limits were to be the whole top of Delaware down to Kirkwood Hwy as the stopping point, the population of Wilmington would be 200,000+ right? Maybe even more, if that was the case Id Assume we would have more Transit options.
... Please just stop dragging this thread down unnecessary Fictional roads? Please?

Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1165 on: February 09, 2019, 12:45:18 AM »

I see, so Wilmington's population falling after 1950 furthermore insured that Trolley lines were removed, and subway plans never even came up, and lastly the city limits were never pushed making The City of Wilmington bigger. That's a shame because if the Wilmington City limits were to be the whole top of Delaware down to Kirkwood Hwy as the stopping point, the population of Wilmington would be 200,000+ right? Maybe even more, if that was the case Id Assume we would have more Transit options.
... Please just stop dragging this thread down unnecessary Fictional roads? Please?
Gotcha sorry about that, just trying to make convo.


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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1166 on: February 09, 2019, 07:44:11 AM »

In regards to expanding the city, I've heard the purpose of allowing the really tall building on the Concord Pike (I forget who owns it now) as an effort to expand the city to the north. It never happened, and left that area with an out-of-place semi-skyscraper.
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ixnay

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1167 on: February 09, 2019, 08:13:52 AM »

In regards to expanding the city, I've heard the purpose of allowing the really tall building on the Concord Pike (I forget who owns it now) as an effort to expand the city to the north. It never happened, and left that area with an out-of-place semi-skyscraper.

I remember it as the Rollins Building.  You can see it from the Roth Bridge over the C&D Canal, and the DuPont Country Club (where the LPGA used to have one of its major tournaments every year) is a couple of blocks behind the building. 

I went to that building one time for a job interview in the '90s, and while killing time before going inside, this couple parked next to me, got a pair of lawn chairs out of their trunk, and headed off in the direction of the DuPont Country Club, no doubt possessing tickets to the LPGA tournament, which was going on that day. :)

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Tonytone

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Delaware
« Reply #1168 on: February 09, 2019, 11:19:02 AM »

In regards to expanding the city, I've heard the purpose of allowing the really tall building on the Concord Pike (I forget who owns it now) as an effort to expand the city to the north. It never happened, and left that area with an out-of-place semi-skyscraper.

I remember it as the Rollins Building.  You can see it from the Roth Bridge over the C&D Canal, and the DuPont Country Club (where the LPGA used to have one of its major tournaments every year) is a couple of blocks behind the building. 

I went to that building one time for a job interview in the '90s, and while killing time before going inside, this couple parked next to me, got a pair of lawn chairs out of their trunk, and headed off in the direction of the DuPont Country Club, no doubt possessing tickets to the LPGA tournament, which was going on that day. :)

ixnay
Woww, is that really why that building is there. Explains it now, why did the plan fall through? Concord Pike seems like it should already be in the city limits along with other parts.


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ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1169 on: February 09, 2019, 08:27:55 PM »

That's a shame because if the Wilmington City limits were to be the whole top of Delaware down to Kirkwood Hwy as the stopping point, the population of Wilmington would be 200,000+ right?
About 2 years ago I pulled Census data to see what Wilmington's population would be if all of its ZIP codes (19801-19810) were part of the city limits and I think it came to 216,000.  On that note, I think Newark (19702, 19711-19717) was around 150,000.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1170 on: February 09, 2019, 08:31:53 PM »

That's a shame because if the Wilmington City limits were to be the whole top of Delaware down to Kirkwood Hwy as the stopping point, the population of Wilmington would be 200,000+ right?
About 2 years ago I pulled Census data to see what Wilmington's population would be if all of its ZIP codes (19801-19810) were part of the city limits and I think it came to 216,000.  On that note, I think Newark (19702, 19711-19717) was around 150,000.
Hold on, Newark has more population then Wilmington? Or were you counting all the newark zip codes together?


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ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1171 on: February 09, 2019, 10:35:58 PM »

That's a shame because if the Wilmington City limits were to be the whole top of Delaware down to Kirkwood Hwy as the stopping point, the population of Wilmington would be 200,000+ right?
About 2 years ago I pulled Census data to see what Wilmington's population would be if all of its ZIP codes (19801-19810) were part of the city limits and I think it came to 216,000.  On that note, I think Newark (19702, 19711-19717) was around 150,000.
Hold on, Newark has more population then Wilmington? Or were you counting all the newark zip codes together?
I think you misread what I said.  All of the "Wilmington" ZIP codes (including ones like 19808, which doesn't enter the city limits) added up to around 216,000.  All of the "Newark" ZIP codes (including 19702, which I don't think enters the city limits) added up to 150,000 or so.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1172 on: February 09, 2019, 10:40:04 PM »

That's a shame because if the Wilmington City limits were to be the whole top of Delaware down to Kirkwood Hwy as the stopping point, the population of Wilmington would be 200,000+ right?
About 2 years ago I pulled Census data to see what Wilmington's population would be if all of its ZIP codes (19801-19810) were part of the city limits and I think it came to 216,000.  On that note, I think Newark (19702, 19711-19717) was around 150,000.
Hold on, Newark has more population then Wilmington? Or were you counting all the newark zip codes together?
I think you misread what I said.  All of the "Wilmington" ZIP codes (including ones like 19808, which doesn't enter the city limits) added up to around 216,000.  All of the "Newark" ZIP codes (including 19702, which I don't think enters the city limits) added up to 150,000 or so.
I thought thats what you meant, I was unsure if you meant the city of Newark alone, but you included the other Zips, for all that they should erase some districts & combine them up so the cities would be bigger, why doesnt Delaware want big population cities?


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Alex

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1173 on: February 10, 2019, 12:05:38 AM »


The best source for old plans may actually be at the University of Delaware Library.  Colleges, Universities and State Libraries are typical locations where plans of old wound up.

The Hugh Morris Library at UDel is where Cary Todd and I found the document on the Newark Beltway way back in 1993. What I presented on AARoads, some of which dates back to the old Geocities days, was from my recollection of us going through them.


Draft EIS, 1970
DE-4, Newark Beltway, Ogletown to New London Road, New Castle County
https://tinyurl.com/y88qv3pm

Project about 7.7 miles long, a divided multi-lane arterial.  Page down and you can see a map of the alternatives.
...

I don't see the DE 141 extension yet, but I will note that I saw the viaduct under construction in 1976 and the scale and size and straightness looked like it would be part of a major freeway (and I later noticed that it never did).

I scanned several News Journal articles I saved from the early 1990s about completing the Delaware 141 freeway back in 2005. IIRC I posted a 1994 article that included graphics for all the projects envisioned for finishing Delaware 141 to Steve Anderson's phillyroads FB group several years back. I can dig that out and post it here at some point if there is interest.

Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1174 on: February 10, 2019, 12:08:51 AM »


The best source for old plans may actually be at the University of Delaware Library.  Colleges, Universities and State Libraries are typical locations where plans of old wound up.

The Hugh Morris Library at UDel is where Cary Todd and I found the document on the Newark Beltway way back in 1993. What I presented on AARoads, some of which dates back to the old Geocities days, was from my recollection of us going through them.


Draft EIS, 1970
DE-4, Newark Beltway, Ogletown to New London Road, New Castle County
https://tinyurl.com/y88qv3pm

Project about 7.7 miles long, a divided multi-lane arterial.  Page down and you can see a map of the alternatives.
...

I don't see the DE 141 extension yet, but I will note that I saw the viaduct under construction in 1976 and the scale and size and straightness looked like it would be part of a major freeway (and I later noticed that it never did).

I scanned several News Journal articles I saved from the early 1990s about completing the Delaware 141 freeway back in 2005. IIRC I posted a 1994 article that included graphics for all the projects envisioned for finishing Delaware 141 to Steve Anderson's phillyroads FB group several years back. I can dig that out and post it here at some point if there is interest.
Alex you know im down to the bone interested, so thats 1 vote for yay.


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