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Author Topic: Delaware  (Read 319954 times)

ixnay

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1175 on: February 10, 2019, 08:03:04 AM »


The best source for old plans may actually be at the University of Delaware Library.  Colleges, Universities and State Libraries are typical locations where plans of old wound up.

The Hugh Morris Library at UDel is where Cary Todd and I found the document on the Newark Beltway way back in 1993. What I presented on AARoads, some of which dates back to the old Geocities days, was from my recollection of us going through them.


Draft EIS, 1970
DE-4, Newark Beltway, Ogletown to New London Road, New Castle County
https://tinyurl.com/y88qv3pm

Project about 7.7 miles long, a divided multi-lane arterial.  Page down and you can see a map of the alternatives.
...

I don't see the DE 141 extension yet, but I will note that I saw the viaduct under construction in 1976 and the scale and size and straightness looked like it would be part of a major freeway (and I later noticed that it never did).

I scanned several News Journal articles I saved from the early 1990s about completing the Delaware 141 freeway back in 2005. IIRC I posted a 1994 article that included graphics for all the projects envisioned for finishing Delaware 141 to Steve Anderson's phillyroads FB group several years back. I can dig that out and post it here at some point if there is interest.
Alex you know im down to the bone interested, so thats 1 vote for yay.


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Here's another yes vote.  Let's see it.  I've driven the 141 freeway many times.

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Alex

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Delaware 141 freeway proposal
« Reply #1176 on: February 10, 2019, 12:47:43 PM »

Uploaded the scans to the gallery section of the forum. Turns out the article was not from 1994, but instead was published on November 29, 1992.

It outlined a pretty optimistic time table for completing SR 141... Besides the grade separation at Rockland Road, none of this moved forward.



Alex you know im down to the bone interested, so thats 1 vote for yay.
Here's another yes vote.  Let's see it.  I've driven the 141 freeway many times.

Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1177 on: February 10, 2019, 02:53:09 PM »

Uploaded the scans to the gallery section of the forum. Turns out the article was not from 1994, but instead was published on November 29, 1992.

It outlined a pretty optimistic time table for completing SR 141... Besides the grade separation at Rockland Road, none of this moved forward.



Alex you know im down to the bone interested, so thats 1 vote for yay.
Here's another yes vote.  Let's see it.  I've driven the 141 freeway many times.
So basically Deldot plans for the future, but Residents are not satisfied with the plans (or any plans). Did dupont & the other business ever expand? Or did they cancel their plans because the highway wasn’t built. Its a shame that Deldot planned all our roads to handle capacity till 2030, but plans were shot down because, residents sight of view changed or maybe some people are scared of highways. Now look, Delaware is lacking in road infrastructure & connections & that causes people to think twice about living or working in De. IMHO. Thanks Nimbys. You live in the strip of houses on porter road or Red lion & you control all the say in the whole New Castle. What a corrupt county.


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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1178 on: February 10, 2019, 04:21:25 PM »

Apparently you are completely unaware of all the road projects throughout the nation that were cancelled or changed due to community opposition. I'm not sure how the lack of a 141 as proposed by Deldot results in a corrupt county.
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Tonytone

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Delaware
« Reply #1179 on: February 10, 2019, 04:26:39 PM »

Apparently you are completely unaware of all the road projects throughout the nation that were cancelled or changed due to community opposition. I'm not sure how the lack of a 141 as proposed by Deldot results in a corrupt county.
141 is just one project J & N, you should know New Castle is famous for corruption, For a state in a Major area in the northeast, why are major projects always shot down by people who only go outside to buy groceries & go home, No disrespect intended, but the past generation of “important people” didn’t do their job. I understand projects were scaled down after the 70’s & up.


Delaware is finally catching up, but damn after traffic is bad & they have to?! Sometimes you should just go with your gut.

Also I say the county is corrupt because only certain people <10%> control all the say, any project proposed, 50 people in one area will say no & its a no. Not even thinking about the future or the other 1000’s of people around, I believe thats call corruption in the system.

How much you wanna bet that half the people living in Delaware have never seen the City of New York, they think sight lines are crazy here, go check New York Out.
(Edit : added some more words)


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« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 04:38:16 PM by Tonytone »
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ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1180 on: February 10, 2019, 04:37:57 PM »

So basically Deldot plans for the future, but Residents are not satisfied with the plans (or any plans). Did dupont & the other business ever expand? Or did they cancel their plans because the highway wasn’t built. Its a shame that Deldot planned all our roads to handle capacity till 2030, but plans were shot down because, residents sight of view changed or maybe some people are scared of highways. Now look, Delaware is lacking in road infrastructure & connections & that causes people to think twice about living or working in De. IMHO. Thanks Nimbys. You live in the strip of houses on porter road or Red lion & you control all the say in the whole New Castle. What a corrupt county.
You know Delaware is booming fairly rapidly in population, right?  Every other commercial on TV in the Dover/Salisbury market is for home builders (primarily in Sussex).

To use a New Castle reference, Middletown's population was 6,000 in 2000 and is now 21,000.  They're building everywhere in this state.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1181 on: February 10, 2019, 04:53:03 PM »

So basically Deldot plans for the future, but Residents are not satisfied with the plans (or any plans). Did dupont & the other business ever expand? Or did they cancel their plans because the highway wasn’t built. Its a shame that Deldot planned all our roads to handle capacity till 2030, but plans were shot down because, residents sight of view changed or maybe some people are scared of highways. Now look, Delaware is lacking in road infrastructure & connections & that causes people to think twice about living or working in De. IMHO. Thanks Nimbys. You live in the strip of houses on porter road or Red lion & you control all the say in the whole New Castle. What a corrupt county.
You know Delaware is booming fairly rapidly in population, right?  Every other commercial on TV in the Dover/Salisbury market is for home builders (primarily in Sussex).

To use a New Castle reference, Middletown's population was 6,000 in 2000 and is now 21,000.  They're building everywhere in this state.
And I see the Boom going on down state, and it’s great, Im happy they are building homes down there, but up here in New Castle , this area needs help, The city of Wilmington is the top of the Iceberg with plans shot down & projects failing, now some plans might have been bad & some good, Ill give you that. But look at Delawares location IMO situated between 3 major cities Baltimore, Philly and New York, You would think planners & developers would think a little more creatively, using models from Bigger cities to atleast become a moderate sized city with options for everyone & everything, I get upset when I drive to philly and see how great everything looks, but you drive to Delaware & thats a 35 minute trip ( with no traffic) & you wonder what the fuck happened.

Reading on Wiki, It says Wilmington Delaware was the biggest producer of Steel & ships on in the whole country, how did we go from that to, a population of 72,000???

New Castle is another thing, poor planning & no amenities. New Castle could have Easily made a light rail line from elkton to Wilmington, would have solved every issue for people without cars.

Newark could have been a even better city with the UD Campus, some of you know the rant I threw about the Newark beltway.

I speak so highly of these issues, because I love Delaware. I will learn everything I have to learn and be a person in Delaware to fix problems & help the people that actually care & live & work in Delaware everyday, I wont be another Pettinaro or Capano & just fuck everything up. Or let it get that way.


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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1182 on: February 10, 2019, 09:26:59 PM »

Good luck fixing those problems. You're gonna need it!
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1183 on: February 10, 2019, 09:27:52 PM »

Good luck fixing those problems. You're gonna need it!
Thank you, Its a long road of potholes.


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Alex4897

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1184 on: February 11, 2019, 01:13:14 AM »

I get upset when I drive to philly and see how great everything looks, but you drive to Delaware & thats a 35 minute trip ( with no traffic) & you wonder what the fuck happened.

...are we living in the same universe?
The trip to and through Philly is a traffic choked slog along a woefully overcapacity and under-maintained stretch of I-95. Meanwhile, headed southbound, the instant you cross into Delaware quality and north / south capacity increases greatly.

Newark could have been a even better city with the UD Campus, some of you know the rant I threw about the Newark beltway.

The complaints you've been lobbing out about Delaware's roadway systems have largely either been hugely exaggerated or make no sense at all. I really don't think you understand how public opinion or public policy works, or how history unfolded that led to where we are today. Yes these cancelled projects would've been cool to see come to fruition, and yes they could've solved a few traffic problems, but practically every post of yours is complaining about how no one in Delaware decided to overbuild the heck out of our infrastructure to support the major metropolis you want plopped on top of Newark. Nobody wants Newark to be a gigantic metropolitan area except you, certainly not the people who live here, and not supporting these cancelled roadway plans in no way shape or form correlates with corruption. Bigger is not necessarily better when it comes to cities, and nobody in their right mind is going to set out to just plop a gigantic city on top of a college town where's there's no demand for such a thing.

Please just take a moment and come back to reality before you post, because this is getting kinda old.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1185 on: February 11, 2019, 01:29:35 AM »

I get upset when I drive to philly and see how great everything looks, but you drive to Delaware & thats a 35 minute trip ( with no traffic) & you wonder what the fuck happened.

...are we living in the same universe?
The trip to and through Philly is a traffic choked slog along a woefully overcapacity and under-maintained stretch of I-95. Meanwhile, headed southbound, the instant you cross into Delaware quality and north / south capacity increases greatly.

Newark could have been a even better city with the UD Campus, some of you know the rant I threw about the Newark beltway.

The complaints you've been lobbing out about Delaware's roadway systems have largely either been hugely exaggerated or make no sense at all. I really don't think you understand how public opinion or public policy works, or how history unfolded that led to where we are today. Yes these cancelled projects would've been cool to see come to fruition, and yes they could've solved a few traffic problems, but practically every post of yours is complaining about how no one in Delaware decided to overbuild the heck out of our infrastructure to support the major metropolis you want plopped on top of Newark. Nobody wants Newark to be a gigantic metropolitan area except you, certainly not the people who live here, and not supporting these cancelled roadway plans in no way shape or form correlates with corruption. Bigger is not necessarily better when it comes to cities, and nobody in their right mind is going to set out to just plop a gigantic city on top of a college town where's there's no demand for such a thing.

Please just take a moment and come back to reality before you post, because this is getting kinda old.


I said without traffic, did you read my paragraph right?


I didn’t say anything about a big major city in Newark.


And you must not know the area I live in like I do. I talk to people & see what goes on around me, I didn’t blame canceled projects for corruption, I said only a certain group of people control the say in Delaware & thats corruption.

I know how public policy & public opinion works, & you wanna talk about history of how things unfolded? Yea it unfolded Onesided & racist. So you think everyone had an opinion? People still dont.

Ill post facts about things before I speak, maybe that will get people to understand.

Seeing how people take my posts, I see which way the tide flows. Instead of posting rants Ill post the changes that happen instead, Sorry that my eyes are open.


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froggie

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1186 on: February 11, 2019, 07:49:53 AM »

Just going to say this:

NIMBY ≠ corruption

Annoying, yes.  But not corruption.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1187 on: February 11, 2019, 08:29:51 AM »

Newark could have been a even better city with the UD Campus, some of you know the rant I threw about the Newark beltway.

The complaints you've been lobbing out about Delaware's roadway systems have largely either been hugely exaggerated or make no sense at all. I really don't think you understand how public opinion or public policy works, or how history unfolded that led to where we are today. Yes these cancelled projects would've been cool to see come to fruition, and yes they could've solved a few traffic problems, but practically every post of yours is complaining about how no one in Delaware decided to overbuild the heck out of our infrastructure to support the major metropolis you want plopped on top of Newark. Nobody wants Newark to be a gigantic metropolitan area except you, certainly not the people who live here, and not supporting these cancelled roadway plans in no way shape or form correlates with corruption. Bigger is not necessarily better when it comes to cities, and nobody in their right mind is going to set out to just plop a gigantic city on top of a college town where's there's no demand for such a thing.

Please just take a moment and come back to reality before you post, because this is getting kinda old.
As unexciting as Dover (a city of similar size to Newark in Delaware) may be, I am glad that it is fairly small and not terribly congested.  I get overwhelmed by the crowds, rush, and massive infrastructure fairly easily, so I enjoy the quieter and slower pace of life.  Not everybody wants to live in a big city.

And you must not know the area I live in like I do. I talk to people & see what goes on around me, I didn’t blame canceled projects for corruption, I said only a certain group of people control the say in Delaware & thats corruption.
I served on a transportation committee in Newark for 8 months and now work for the state in a transportation office.  I have seen the process firsthand.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 08:32:02 AM by ipeters61 »
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1188 on: February 11, 2019, 09:06:31 AM »

I served on a transportation committee in Newark for 8 months and now work for the state in a transportation office.  I have seen the process firsthand.

Attending numerous public meetings, I've learned to be creative in my recommendations, especially in towns where I don't live.  People don't like congestion; they don't like having their front yard taken for a road expansion even more.  Nearly everyone speeds; but nearly everyone wants everyone else to slow down.  When I'm looking at plans for a project, I'm listening to those around me as much as I'm looking at the proposals.  Also, the consultants and engineers at these meetings often have little to say, and I've found that some employees at a meeting are basically low-level newbies that may not even be familiar with the project.

Depending on the history of these projects, a large scale expansion may have been whittled down to intersection improvements.  I know little ole' me won't succeed in telling them they have to do the expansion, but talk to the right people and suggesting longer turn lanes or right-green arrows on a cross street left arrow may get serious consideration.
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Alex4897

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1189 on: February 11, 2019, 05:19:38 PM »

I said without traffic, did you read my paragraph right?

That post makes little sense either way you read it.

I didn’t say anything about a big major city in Newark.

Okay, New Castle County in general. The point remains that if people here wanted to live in a gigantic city or viewed a gigantic city as preferable to the general suburban nature of the county, they'd move to an actual city or there'd be a bigger drive to start plopping skyscrapers and high rises everywhere. But there isn't, in fact it's the opposite.


And you must not know the area I live in like I do.

I do, and I can say with absolute certainty that you aren't in touch with reality. The northern end of the county is largely built out and people are largely content with the density. Efforts to redevelop the remaining open space gets met with stiff resistance from the surrounding areas regularly, people don't want more density here and people certainly don't want their homes taken by the construction of new highway facilities that will likely increase the population density. Obviously there's support for spot improvements in troublesome areas on existing corridors, or maybe the occasional new roadway connection to fill a gap in the system (the Churchman's Road extension to SR 2 near Delaware Park comes to mind, that still shows up on WILMAPCO's aspirations projects lists), but things like the Newark Beltway, or the SR 141 upgrades, or the fictional light rail system failed to come to fruition (or were never even considered) because people don't want to be pushed out of the way to build these things or they don't want the character of the area to radically change.

Building a new highway is not as easy as you make it sound, and neither is building a comprehensive light rail system.

You've been acting as though the traffic issues here are as bad those in New York City or in Los Angeles, which just simply isn't true. Opposition to highway projects does not equate to corruption, New Castle County is most certainly not well-known for corruption like you say it is.
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Alex4897

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Re: Delaware 141 freeway proposal
« Reply #1190 on: February 11, 2019, 05:25:28 PM »

Uploaded the scans to the gallery section of the forum. Turns out the article was not from 1994, but instead was published on November 29, 1992.

It outlined a pretty optimistic time table for completing SR 141... Besides the grade separation at Rockland Road, none of this moved forward.

[images]

I'm particularly interested by that snippet about the "complex interchange between Montchanin Road and Kennett Pike" and the improvements to the I-95 interchange, assuming they had finished planning the proposed layouts at those locations it's too bad the map didn't show them in greater detail.
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ipeters61

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1191 on: February 11, 2019, 06:59:51 PM »

I served on a transportation committee in Newark for 8 months and now work for the state in a transportation office.  I have seen the process firsthand.

Attending numerous public meetings, I've learned to be creative in my recommendations, especially in towns where I don't live.  People don't like congestion; they don't like having their front yard taken for a road expansion even more.  Nearly everyone speeds; but nearly everyone wants everyone else to slow down.  When I'm looking at plans for a project, I'm listening to those around me as much as I'm looking at the proposals.  Also, the consultants and engineers at these meetings often have little to say, and I've found that some employees at a meeting are basically low-level newbies that may not even be familiar with the project.

Depending on the history of these projects, a large scale expansion may have been whittled down to intersection improvements.  I know little ole' me won't succeed in telling them they have to do the expansion, but talk to the right people and suggesting longer turn lanes or right-green arrows on a cross street left arrow may get serious consideration.
That's really what I enjoy about the whole field of transportation and the field of planning.  It's the challenge of satisfying as many people as possible and reducing the dissatisfaction of others (that seemed redundant), it's seeing the odd compromises that were made to ensure that at least something was built.

Anyway, we're dragging out this issue way too long, I feel.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1192 on: February 11, 2019, 07:05:55 PM »

Anyway, we're dragging out this issue way too long, I feel.

You mean, like many construction projects? Lol
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Tonytone

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Delaware
« Reply #1193 on: February 12, 2019, 12:54:59 AM »

I said without traffic, did you read my paragraph right?

That post makes little sense either way you read it.

I didn’t say anything about a big major city in Newark.

Okay, New Castle County in general. The point remains that if people here wanted to live in a gigantic city or viewed a gigantic city as preferable to the general suburban nature of the county, they'd move to an actual city or there'd be a bigger drive to start plopping skyscrapers and high rises everywhere. But there isn't, in fact it's the opposite.


And you must not know the area I live in like I do.

I do, and I can say with absolute certainty that you aren't in touch with reality. The northern end of the county is largely built out and people are largely content with the density. Efforts to redevelop the remaining open space gets met with stiff resistance from the surrounding areas regularly, people don't want more density here and people certainly don't want their homes taken by the construction of new highway facilities that will likely increase the population density. Obviously there's support for spot improvements in troublesome areas on existing corridors, or maybe the occasional new roadway connection to fill a gap in the system (the Churchman's Road extension to SR 2 near Delaware Park comes to mind, that still shows up on WILMAPCO's aspirations projects lists), but things like the Newark Beltway, or the SR 141 upgrades, or the fictional light rail system failed to come to fruition (or were never even considered) because people don't want to be pushed out of the way to build these things or they don't want the character of the area to radically change.

Building a new highway is not as easy as you make it sound, and neither is building a comprehensive light rail system.

You've been acting as though the traffic issues here are as bad those in New York City or in Los Angeles, which just simply isn't true. Opposition to highway projects does not equate to corruption, New Castle County is most certainly not well-known for corruption like you say it is.
20190212/6fd2ce48c8e7679f3a91394f1668fe6d.jpg[/IMG]

https://m.facebook.com/delawarevotes/



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« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 12:57:09 AM by Tonytone »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1194 on: February 12, 2019, 07:37:09 AM »

Fun Fact: I lived in Cavalier Apartments for a while during my college years.  Cavalier is the apartment complex you see off Interchange 4 of I-95, with the "If you lived here you'll be home now" sign.  I lived on Capano Drive.  The elder Capano was a developer as well, and simply named the main street for the Apartment Complex after himself!

This was during the time he was accused of dumping Anne Marie Fahey's body into the ocean, stuffed into a cooler.

I guess crime runs in the family!
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1195 on: February 12, 2019, 07:56:54 AM »

Fun Fact: I lived in Cavalier Apartments for a while during my college years.  Cavalier is the apartment complex you see off Interchange 4 of I-95, with the "If you lived here you'll be home now" sign.  I lived on Capano Drive.  The elder Capano was a developer as well, and simply named the main street for the Apartment Complex after himself!

This was during the time he was accused of dumping Anne Marie Fahey's body into the ocean, stuffed into a cooler.

I guess crime runs in the family!

Power hungry with no limits, these people control Delaware like a snake, did the property have high rent back in the day too? & did you go to UD jeff?

I was shocked when I read this & learned what they are about. Ive heard from other “real estate” people, that Pettinaro is no better. 


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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1196 on: February 12, 2019, 11:41:30 AM »

Fun Fact: I lived in Cavalier Apartments for a while during my college years.  Cavalier is the apartment complex you see off Interchange 4 of I-95, with the "If you lived here you'll be home now" sign.  I lived on Capano Drive.  The elder Capano was a developer as well, and simply named the main street for the Apartment Complex after himself!

This was during the time he was accused of dumping Anne Marie Fahey's body into the ocean, stuffed into a cooler.

I guess crime runs in the family!

Power hungry with no limits, these people control Delaware like a snake, did the property have high rent back in the day too? & did you go to UD jeff?

I was shocked when I read this & learned what they are about. Ive heard from other “real estate” people, that Pettinaro is no better. 


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I went to Goldey Beacom.

The rent was higher than other apartment complexes, at least at the time (may still be true). I think we paid $700 for a 2 bed 2 bath about 20+ years ago. But the neighborhood was pretty nice for an apartment complex. We were also the first complex as you entered. There were 3 buildings around the parking lot, not 4 like on other areas of the complex, and thus the parking lot was never filled. I guess that was to "show" the complex to potential tenants in a positive light.
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Tonytone

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1197 on: February 12, 2019, 12:45:24 PM »

Fun Fact: I lived in Cavalier Apartments for a while during my college years.  Cavalier is the apartment complex you see off Interchange 4 of I-95, with the "If you lived here you'll be home now" sign.  I lived on Capano Drive.  The elder Capano was a developer as well, and simply named the main street for the Apartment Complex after himself!

This was during the time he was accused of dumping Anne Marie Fahey's body into the ocean, stuffed into a cooler.

I guess crime runs in the family!

Power hungry with no limits, these people control Delaware like a snake, did the property have high rent back in the day too? & did you go to UD jeff?

I was shocked when I read this & learned what they are about. Ive heard from other “real estate” people, that Pettinaro is no better. 


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I went to Goldey Beacom.

The rent was higher than other apartment complexes, at least at the time (may still be true). I think we paid $700 for a 2 bed 2 bath about 20+ years ago. But the neighborhood was pretty nice for an apartment complex. We were also the first complex as you entered. There were 3 buildings around the parking lot, not 4 like on other areas of the complex, and thus the parking lot was never filled. I guess that was to "show" the complex to potential tenants in a positive light.
Hold on $700 for 2 bed 2 bath? Studio bedrooms are now $700+. You know how much you gotta pay for a 2 Bed 2 Bath in Delaware now? $1200+. Was the golf course built yet & busy or no? I believe the apartment complex still has the charm of a nice area since its close to the mall & not easy to get to. Wait you said the rent was was higher then other complexes, what year was this? I was really born in the wrong time.


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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1198 on: February 12, 2019, 03:15:40 PM »

Fun Fact: I lived in Cavalier Apartments for a while during my college years.  Cavalier is the apartment complex you see off Interchange 4 of I-95, with the "If you lived here you'll be home now" sign.  I lived on Capano Drive.  The elder Capano was a developer as well, and simply named the main street for the Apartment Complex after himself!

This was during the time he was accused of dumping Anne Marie Fahey's body into the ocean, stuffed into a cooler.

I guess crime runs in the family!

Power hungry with no limits, these people control Delaware like a snake, did the property have high rent back in the day too? & did you go to UD jeff?

I was shocked when I read this & learned what they are about. Ive heard from other “real estate” people, that Pettinaro is no better. 


iPhone

I went to Goldey Beacom.

The rent was higher than other apartment complexes, at least at the time (may still be true). I think we paid $700 for a 2 bed 2 bath about 20+ years ago. But the neighborhood was pretty nice for an apartment complex. We were also the first complex as you entered. There were 3 buildings around the parking lot, not 4 like on other areas of the complex, and thus the parking lot was never filled. I guess that was to "show" the complex to potential tenants in a positive light.
Hold on $700 for 2 bed 2 bath? Studio bedrooms are now $700+. You know how much you gotta pay for a 2 Bed 2 Bath in Delaware now? $1200+. Was the golf course built yet & busy or no? I believe the apartment complex still has the charm of a nice area since its close to the mall & not easy to get to. Wait you said the rent was was higher then other complexes, what year was this? I was really born in the wrong time.


iPhone

Yeah...$1200 is pretty cheap today for a 2/2. I ain't gonna find that in NJ!  This was in 1996/97.

The golf course was there. I never really paid attention to it though.
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MASTERNC

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #1199 on: February 13, 2019, 08:48:04 PM »

So I found out that Delaware basically treats E-ZPass violations like traffic tickets.  On top of the toll, they add a $25 fine, and then another $25 of surcharges for crime victims and EMS.  I don't recall any other state doing that.
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