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Author Topic: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?  (Read 24511 times)

Alex

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2009, 11:28:05 AM »

There were HOV lanes in New Jersey at one time on I-80 and I-287.  They were proposed in order to justify the widening done along the two corridors.  As it ends up, the I-80 lane was marginally successful and the I-287 lane bombed, so both were removed in the late 1990s.  (I was involved in some of the studies.)  Too many cheaters, and the lanes looked empty.  The public felt like since their tax dollars paid for the construction, they had the right to use the lanes.  I suppose the governor finally caved in.

Personally, I am for HOV and HOT lanes.  I think HOT lanes would have helped the situation in central New Jersey.

And for several years sign bridges sat empty over the left-hand lanes of Interstate 80 and such, from the failed HOV experiment.

haljackey

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2009, 11:48:19 AM »

Quote
An HOV lane has the ability to move as many people as four general-purpose lanes."

That sentence is a bit biased. Yes, it could be possible if all the cars on it would carry 4.8 people on average, but I don't think that's the reality.

Exactly what I was thinking... no one here even pays attention to the 2+ rule, and even if they did, who is actually able to commute with 4 or more people in the same car!? It just doesn't work! So if they only carried 2 people on average, it would only move as many people as less than 2 general-purpose lanes. Plus fewer cars are using them. So you have 2 people per car but half as many cars using the HOV lanes, equating to about the same amount of traffic moved for a whole lot more trouble.

Well, consider this:  http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/hov/index.shtml

Pretty much its saying that for 57 people to get to work, they could take 57 cars, 26 if they carpooled with someone, or just 1 bus.

HOV lanes aren't just 2+, it can encourage bus transit and increase that number many times over.
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Chris

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2009, 11:55:53 AM »

Yeah well, a full bus doesn't mean that would've otherwise been all cars with one person. I doubt many bus travellers have an everyday alternative in the car. Except for mass transit subway systems like in New York or Washington, most people travelling transit do that because they don't have a car for everyday commuting. Transit and freeways both have mostly different target audiences.

Duke87

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2009, 12:31:10 PM »

HOV lanes, I like, if they're implemented in a situation where people end up using them.

HOT lanes on the other hand, I don't like. So far as I'm concerned, that ruins the point. The point is to encourage people to carpool. If you allow people to just pay their way in then you reduce that encouragement and make the lane reserved not just for people who are being efficient but also for rich people in their limousines who don't mind paying a large fee to use the lane. Which is unfair to those with lower incomes who can't or aren't quite as willing to afford it.
Seems to me like allowing people to bribe their way around the high occupancy requirement, essentially.

Of course, DOTs like them because they're an easy source of perpetual income.
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vdeane

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2009, 12:46:13 PM »

Overall I don't really like HOV lanes.  They're supposed to encourage carpooling, but carpooling just isn't practical today.  This is because most trips these days are not commuting to work (commuting is only 16% of all traffic, down from 40% 50 years ago).  Most trips these days are errands where it's impractical to carpool.  Who wants to share a ride with someone who is going to day care, picking up laundry, dropping by Blockbuster, etc.  Most "carpooling" today is between family members with the kids being ferried from place to place.
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Chris

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2009, 12:51:57 PM »


Of course, DOTs like them because they're an easy source of perpetual income.

Yeah, because with HOT lanes, the incentive to reduce congestion is gone, because then that HOT lane will become unused. I'm not a fan of pricing the poor off the road/into congestion.

deathtopumpkins

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2009, 05:15:55 PM »

Hal: I know that HOV Lanes are designed for that use, but I am saying that practically that is not what ends up happening. They're just not that convenient for commuters and other traffic just disregards the rules in them.

haljackey

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2009, 07:17:36 PM »

Hal: I know that HOV Lanes are designed for that use, but I am saying that practically that is not what ends up happening. They're just not that convenient for commuters and other traffic just disregards the rules in them.

Well, like others have stated, it depends.  They seem to work in larger, denser cities opposed to smaller and/or spread out cities.  So they'd probably be excellent to use in the 5 big North American cities (Mexico City, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Toronto respectively) and denser ones as well (such as San Francisco, Boston, Vancouver, and other dense North American cities).


I don't know about these HOT lanes everyone is talking about.  Does that T stand for Transit or Toll?   :crazy:
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deathtopumpkins

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2009, 07:43:10 PM »

The T does stand for toll.

And I'm just speaking from what I've noticed around here...

Alps

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2009, 11:24:13 AM »

There were HOV lanes in New Jersey at one time on I-80 and I-287.  They were proposed in order to justify the widening done along the two corridors.  As it ends up, the I-80 lane was marginally successful and the I-287 lane bombed, so both were removed in the late 1990s.  (I was involved in some of the studies.)  Too many cheaters, and the lanes looked empty.  The public felt like since their tax dollars paid for the construction, they had the right to use the lanes.  I suppose the governor finally caved in.

Personally, I am for HOV and HOT lanes.  I think HOT lanes would have helped the situation in central New Jersey.

And for several years sign bridges sat empty over the left-hand lanes of Interstate 80 and such, from the failed HOV experiment.

Too many cheaters because the lanes were striped as regular lanes.  And there are STILL sign bridges over I-80 and I-287, and you can STILL make out the diamond markings in the pavement.

yacoded

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2009, 04:13:59 AM »

Here in Hartford we have HOV lanes but they are a hassle to use you can only enter/exit them at every other exit on I-91/84 and they take up so much space (you can look at the wikipedia article on HOV lanes and see for yourselves).  I propose using HOT lanes during peak hours with variable pricing. That way it's a compromise for those who drive. The drivers can either wait in traffic, take public transport or pay. In the off-peak the lanes can be free like in Minneapolis
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Coelacanth

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2009, 11:12:31 AM »

- Operational experience with I-394 has also shown a noticeable decrease in the number of "cheaters" after the lanes were converted from HOV to HO/T.

I think this decrease in cheaters is as much due to increased enforcement and the flashing transponder-detection indicators than to the simple fact that these are now toll lanes.

I also take issue with Chris's earlier statement that most bus commuters do not have a car alternative. That's just too broad a generalization. I have always had a car, and have always commuted by bus when I had that option. The savings on parking alone make it well worth it.
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UptownRoadGeek

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2009, 11:17:01 AM »

I'm for them as long as they work. The one's we have here took a while to catch on but they come in handy at peak times (especially with the Huey closed). To be honest we need more, we could use them on almost every stretch of highway in the metro. The only thing I don't like about the ones here is the fact that it is a HOT lane when inbound and when they reverse it for outbound it becomes HOV.
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UptownRoadGeek

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Re: HOV Lanes, R u them or against them?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2009, 08:56:33 PM »

I could understand if they charged the same 1.00 cash/0.40 toll tag, but the price is always higher.
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larryao

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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2009, 03:46:14 AM »

A couple of HOV lanes in Orange County (SR 22 and SR 55) have continuous access, meaning you can use and leave the HOV lane whenever you please.
They did the same thing on I-215 in Riverside between SR 91 to I-215 SR 60 interchange in MoValley.
 Larry
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deathtopumpkins

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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2009, 05:42:14 PM »

That's how the ones on I-64 on the Peninsula and I-264 on the Southside are here. Just separated from the travel lanes with a double dashed white line.

mightyace

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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2009, 05:58:59 PM »

The reasons why have been mentioned before in detail.  (In summary, it was a way to wangle federal tax $$$ for road widening.)

In Nashville, the HOV lanes have no pavement markings differentiating them from the non-HOV lanes.  There are just the signs on the concrete median.
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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2009, 07:05:54 PM »

I like the idea of HOV/HOT lanes, but I still maintain the only way to prevent "cheating" is to block off the lane from mainlane traffic, save a few controlled access points.  Even "soft" barriers like plastic poles would do this better than a double white line, IMO.
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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2009, 07:42:07 AM »

Quote
That's how the ones on I-64 on the Peninsula and I-264 on the Southside are here. Just separated from the travel lanes with a double dashed white line.

However, one feature the HOV lanes on I-64 on the Peninsula have that most other "concurrent HOV lanes" don't is a 4-ft buffer between the HOV lane and the adjacent regular lane.

Which is theoretically wide enough to install a jersey barrier with 1ft on each side of the Jersey barrier.
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2009, 08:02:13 AM »

I like the idea of HOV/HOT lanes, but I still maintain the only way to prevent "cheating" is to block off the lane from mainlane traffic, save a few controlled access points.  Even "soft" barriers like plastic poles would do this better than a double white line, IMO.

+1 I agree about plastic poles or a jersey barrier.

btw,  Wikipedia have the entries about HOT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-occupancy_toll and ETL (Express Toll Lanes) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express_toll_lane
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deathtopumpkins

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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2009, 11:29:51 AM »

Quote
That's how the ones on I-64 on the Peninsula and I-264 on the Southside are here. Just separated from the travel lanes with a double dashed white line.

However, one feature the HOV lanes on I-64 on the Peninsula have that most other "concurrent HOV lanes" don't is a 4-ft buffer between the HOV lane and the adjacent regular lane.

Which is theoretically wide enough to install a jersey barrier with 1ft on each side of the Jersey barrier.


They do? Didn't look like it when I drove to the mall on Thursday. Just the regular lane, a double dashed line, and the HOV lane. Unless 4 feet are taken up by that additional line...

deathtopumpkins

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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2009, 07:23:25 PM »

Yeah, you're right. There is a nice gap there.

ComputerGuy

Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2009, 08:05:44 PM »

I like em', just last year they extended them about 3 miles to Everett...soon onto Marysville and then...me!  :biggrin:
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V'Ger

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Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2009, 12:58:09 AM »

Personally I love the ones in Marin County. It's so odd because on weekends nobody ever uses them even though they're designed only for weekdays and they're just normal lanes, so I pretty much usually get a lane to myself when traffic is backed up everywhere else.
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ComputerGuy

Re: HOV Lanes, Are You For Them or Against?
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2009, 06:25:25 PM »

WA wants some HOT lanes, they're currently on WA-167 from Renton to Auburn.
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