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Author Topic: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?  (Read 69436 times)

cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2012, 09:20:57 AM »

WTOP Beltway Poll: Yea to Potomac bridge, nay to gas tax

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Two-thirds of people in the Washington area support the building of a new bridge across the Potomac River to ease traffic congestion, according to a new WTOP Beltway Poll.

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Sixty nine percent of Marylanders support a new span. The poll finds that 65 percent of Virginia residents back a new bridge, while 58 percent of District residents support the idea.

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Overall, 66 percent of those surveyed say they approve of building a new bridge.

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The poll shows overwhelming opposition to an increase in the gas tax, with 78 percent saying they would oppose paying higher fees at the pump.
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2012, 06:41:54 PM »

WTOP Beltway Poll: Yea to Potomac bridge, nay to gas tax

Quote
Two-thirds of people in the Washington area support the building of a new bridge across the Potomac River to ease traffic congestion, according to a new WTOP Beltway Poll.

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Sixty nine percent of Marylanders support a new span. The poll finds that 65 percent of Virginia residents back a new bridge, while 58 percent of District residents support the idea.

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Overall, 66 percent of those surveyed say they approve of building a new bridge.

Quote
The poll shows overwhelming opposition to an increase in the gas tax, with 78 percent saying they would oppose paying higher fees at the pump.

Toll it is, then.

cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2012, 09:56:54 AM »

D.C. Examiner: McDonnell, O'Malley discuss new Potomac crossing

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Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell and Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley are discussing building a new Potomac River crossing to ease traffic on the Beltway.

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Virginia Secretary of Transportation Sean Connaughton told reporters Wednesday that the two governors are reviving discussions of the project, which has been proposed several times in recent years only to collapse under local and environmental concerns.
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cpzilliacus

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« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 11:10:14 AM by cpzilliacus »
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bsmart

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2012, 10:37:01 PM »

Won't happen in my lifetime.  As the one article says 'Ordinary folks want it special interests are against it'  Some of those special interests are the high end residential land owners along the river who don't want to spoil their nice estates.  Those land owners are very well connected politically and have held up road improvements in that area for years.
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vdeane

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2012, 01:45:58 PM »

This is why special interests should be curtailed or outlawed altogether.
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hbelkins

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2012, 09:28:25 PM »

This is why special interests should be curtailed or outlawed altogether.

Why would one group of people be a special interest while another group not be?
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cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2012, 11:13:44 AM »

Won't happen in my lifetime.  As the one article says 'Ordinary folks want it special interests are against it'  Some of those special interests are the high end residential land owners along the river who don't want to spoil their nice estates.  Those land owners are very well connected politically and have held up road improvements in that area for years.

Groups claiming to represent those land owners (including those on the Virginia side of the river) were very much involved in the frantic opposition to the Md. 200 (InterCounty Connector) toll road project, though they did not contribute money to the (ultimately failed) federal lawsuits against the project (the main litigation was provided, pro-bono, by the Georgetown University School of Law).

Not that they lived near the ICC, but they were opposed to the project anyway, even they all of them reside in areas not well-served by transit.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 12:47:50 PM by cpzilliacus »
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cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2012, 11:14:42 AM »

This is why special interests should be curtailed or outlawed altogether.

Why would one group of people be a special interest while another group not be?

Very good (and very fair) question. 
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2012, 11:41:44 AM »

This is why special interests should be curtailed or outlawed altogether.

Why would one group of people be a special interest while another group not be?

more powerful lawyers.
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vdeane

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2012, 11:52:26 AM »

This is why special interests should be curtailed or outlawed altogether.

Why would one group of people be a special interest while another group not be?
It's about influence.  Normal voters are powerless against groups like the environmentalists or the NRA to influence policy due to the supreme court's delusion that money = speech.  I'm talking groups like the anti-69 people in Bloomington.

As far as I'm concerned, people should vote or write their congressman.  That's it.  No bribing officials.  No multi-million dollar attack ads against officials that refuse your bribe.
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qguy

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2012, 03:34:55 PM »

Normal voters are powerless against groups like the environmentalists or the NRA…

Actually, normal voters band together to *form* groups like the environmentalists or the NRA.

Ironically, "special interest groups" as often as not start because a bunch of normal voters decide that individually they are powerless against some other perceived "special interest group" (or the government) and get together to promote or oppose something they think is either toward or against their benefit.
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hbelkins

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2012, 09:57:17 AM »

Actually, I think "special interest group" means any group that holds a position that is opposite to yours. ;-)
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vdeane

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2012, 12:06:27 PM »

Hey, I actually do the right thing and refuse to place myself in groups.  For example, while I identify with the Democrats and loathe most Republicans, I refuse to join any political party (those should be abolished as well).

Most interest groups are backed by the wealthy and/or corporations, so the phrase "class warfare" very much applies (though it's the opposite of what FOX claims is going on).

If I was home, I'd get my AP Government and Politics notes and quote the exact definition.  My teacher gave a very good impromptu speech on how voter apathy and special interest groups are destroying the country.
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ARMOURERERIC

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2012, 01:49:25 PM »

They need to go back to the US 17 to US 15, Fredericksburg, Warrenton, Point of Rocks, Frederick plan, make it toll, limit exits to an average of 8-10 miles, maybe extend Sam Eig due west to PoR.
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qguy

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2012, 07:35:43 PM »

Actually, I think "special interest group" means any group that holds a position that is opposite to yours. ;-)

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!  :clap:

My lovely assistant will now explain your prizes…
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bsmart

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2012, 08:06:00 AM »

They need to go back to the US 17 to US 15, Fredericksburg, Warrenton, Point of Rocks, Frederick plan, make it toll, limit exits to an average of 8-10 miles, maybe extend Sam Eig due west to PoR.

It depends on what you percieve the purpose of the route to be.

If it is to provide a bypass to the heavy traffic area around DC and keep through traffic (such as trucks) away from the core of the area this route is one of two that could serve the purpose.  If the intent is to relieve daily commuter traffic between residential areas one one side of the river and jobs on the other (The I 270 and Dulles Tollroad corriders being the concentration points of both) than a route out as far as Point of Rocks does not work, you need a high volume crossing (not a barge on a string) no further out than Balls B and prefferably downstream of that (Connect Cascades Parkway in VA to Seneca Rd and on to Sam Eig in MD)

I've been commuting in this area for over 25 years  lived here for my entire life except for 9 years in the USAF and there has never been concensus on where river crossings should be.  I believe it becomes a power struggle between the VA and MD political machines to see who can force their will on the other rather than trying to resolve the issue.  I would be happy if they would just continue US-15 Straight north from the last big turn before the river (Where the now Valero gas Station is before 15 enters 'the gulley') across the eastern tip of Heaters Island, around the east side of Point of rocks and reconnect with current 15 north of the traffic circle at Rt 464.  That would avoid most of the houses built in the last 20 years (would have been better if it had been done 20 years ago)  Then we would only need to build around Lucketts and put a full interchange at US-340.  Oh amnd install good deer fencing.  There are times I think you need a hunting license to drive that road at night!
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 11:34:59 AM »

Actually, I think "special interest group" means any group that holds a position that is opposite to yours. ;-)

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!  :clap:

My lovely assistant will now explain your prizes…

You just don't get it, do you?  Stuff like this is the reason why all Americans should be required to pass the AP US History, AP US Government, and AP Comparative Government exams with a 4 or better in order to be allowed to vote.
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1995hoo

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 11:41:15 AM »

Actually, I think "special interest group" means any group that holds a position that is opposite to yours. ;-)

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!  :clap:

My lovely assistant will now explain your prizes…

You just don't get it, do you?  Stuff like this is the reason why all Americans should be required to pass the AP US History, AP US Government, and AP Comparative Government exams with a 4 or better in order to be allowed to vote.

It's been over 20 years, but I thought AP Government was one of the easiest courses I took in high school (and I include both the US and comparative portions of the course, and their associated exams, within that general statement). Passing that course wouldn't be much of a hurdle, IMO.

I could say more about legal education and the like, but it would become political and I don't want to go down that route.
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hbelkins

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2012, 11:41:44 AM »

Actually, I think "special interest group" means any group that holds a position that is opposite to yours. ;-)

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!  :clap:

My lovely assistant will now explain your prizes…

You just don't get it, do you?  Stuff like this is the reason why all Americans should be required to pass the AP US History, AP US Government, and AP Comparative Government exams with a 4 or better in order to be allowed to vote.

Do you seriously think there is no difference between, say, the AFL-CIO or the Sierra Club and the US Chamber of Commerce or the Club for Growth? Why would one be a special interest and the other not?
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2012, 11:47:49 AM »

Because the AFL-CIO is communist.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2012, 12:55:46 PM »

They need to go back to the US 17 to US 15, Fredericksburg, Warrenton, Point of Rocks, Frederick plan, make it toll, limit exits to an average of 8-10 miles, maybe extend Sam Eig due west to PoR.

It depends on what you percieve the purpose of the route to be.

If it is to provide a bypass to the heavy traffic area around DC and keep through traffic (such as trucks) away from the core of the area this route is one of two that could serve the purpose.  If the intent is to relieve daily commuter traffic between residential areas one one side of the river and jobs on the other (The I 270 and Dulles Tollroad corriders being the concentration points of both) than a route out as far as Point of Rocks does not work, you need a high volume crossing (not a barge on a string) no further out than Balls B and prefferably downstream of that (Connect Cascades Parkway in VA to Seneca Rd and on to Sam Eig in MD)

I would go for connecting Sam Eig Highway to Va. 28.

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I've been commuting in this area for over 25 years  lived here for my entire life except for 9 years in the USAF and there has never been concensus on where river crossings should be.

I disagree.  There was consensus on this in the 1960's, when the Washington Outer Beltway was planned.

Then the voters of Montgomery County, Maryland elected a slate of no-growth/slow growth people to its County Council, led by the late Idamae Garrott.  Garrott was to spend the rest of her life lobbying against any and all new highways - first on the County Council, then in the Maryland House of Delegates and finally in the Maryland State Senate.   She died in 1999 thinking that she had won the battle of the InterCounty Connector. 

She used to boast that she personally went to meetings of the Fairfax County and Loudoun County Boards of Supervisors to lobby them to cooperate in her effort to remove highways from the planning maps.  And in the case of the Outer Beltway and the Rockville Facility (part of which was recently completed as the Montrose Parkway), she got away with it.

Quote
I believe it becomes a power struggle between the VA and MD political machines to see who can force their will on the other rather than trying to resolve the issue.  I would be happy if they would just continue US-15 Straight north from the last big turn before the river (Where the now Valero gas Station is before 15 enters 'the gulley') across the eastern tip of Heaters Island, around the east side of Point of rocks and reconnect with current 15 north of the traffic circle at Rt 464.  That would avoid most of the houses built in the last 20 years (would have been better if it had been done 20 years ago)  Then we would only need to build around Lucketts and put a full interchange at US-340.  Oh amnd install good deer fencing.  There are times I think you need a hunting license to drive that road at night!

U.S. 15 is too far west, and the right-of-way does not exist in Loudoun County to significantly upgrade the road, especially near Lucketts and approaching the Point-of-Rocks Bridge.
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2012, 06:45:34 AM »

Actually, I think "special interest group" means any group that holds a position that is opposite to yours. ;-)

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!  :clap:

My lovely assistant will now explain your prizes…

You just don't get it, do you?  Stuff like this is the reason why all Americans should be required to pass the AP US History, AP US Government, and AP Comparative Government exams with a 4 or better in order to be allowed to vote.

Do you seriously think there is no difference between, say, the AFL-CIO or the Sierra Club and the US Chamber of Commerce or the Club for Growth? Why would one be a special interest and the other not?
They all are, but this is a topic for Off-Topic discussion, so I expect this thread to continue on Potomac River crossings after this post.

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2012, 07:11:00 AM »

I'll concede the point of focus in the 60s.  I was growng up in Carroll County at the time and more interested in Baltimore area roads.  Some interest in the rest of central Maryland and an awareness through travel through the area but not a focus.

I figured the lack of improvements along 15 from Lucketts on was due to right of way issues as well as lack of local need but looking at the map and having 15 years when it was my daily commute route made me wish.  And living in the Frederick area it would be just what I need to avoid the DC area.

As far as connecting Sam Eig to RT 28 that was what I thought also but looking at Google Maps it seemed like it is angling the wrong way.  Cascades Pkway cuts off Rt 28 and points more directly over to Sam Eig/Seneca Rd.  It's just the two Golf courses on the VA side (Alogonkian and Trump National) and one Golf Course (Bretton Woods) on the MD side that are in the way (I wonder if there is any political clout associated with them :-))
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cpzilliacus

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2012, 03:49:24 PM »

From Frederick News-Post via WTOP Radio: Officials: New Potomac River crossing unlikely

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When it comes to getting cars across the Potomac River, Maryland's top priority is not building a new bridge, but restoring an old one.

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Discussions between Maryland and Virginia transportation officials about the possibility of building another Potomac crossing have just begun, but Maryland seems unlikely to budge.

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The state's primary concern is the 71-year-old Harry W. Nice Memorial Bridge (U.S. 301), the southern crossing that connects Charles County with Virginia.

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A northern Potomac crossing may not be a priority for Maryland right now, but supporters hope a new bridge could divert traffic from the Capital Beltway, allowing drivers to bypass Washington and cross the river on a new connection northwest of the American Legion Bridge in Cabin John.
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