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Author Topic: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi  (Read 444 times)

707

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US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« on: November 28, 2018, 01:13:20 AM »

The 2018 Mississippi State Highway Map is showing part of US 80 east of Vicksburg re-routed back onto its old route. AASHTO route logs online don't show this change for some reason. Suggesting it's no longer concurrent with I-20 between Exit 11 and Exit 4B. It would be right to pass this off as an erroneous error, but the signage on the state highways seems to agree with the new state highway map.

Southbound MS 27 at MS 822 and US 80?:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3448689,-90.8293869,3a,15y,208.11h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRNx0pIBReBDY_G2I6recaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Northbound MS 27 at the same junction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3436612,-90.828878,3a,15y,24.74h,89.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siT9ehQsJKxt0OaT3qBGRTg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I-20 reassurance marker east of Vicksburg above "US 80" doesn't have a US 80 shield anywhere in sight:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3479916,-90.8228064,3a,22.1y,120.11h,84.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1ngtNNX8Q1eUKLu9LmBaqA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Signage on Tiffentown Road at Exit 11 has signs pointing to West I-20 and East I-20, but only East US 80:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3537302,-90.7341154,3a,31.5y,67.7h,101.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfQloJx99S2JsM3G8j7cFaQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

No signs at Exit 4A saying US 80 is on its older route, but the sign for travelers staying on I-20 only shows a US 61 shield next to I-20:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3416951,-90.8452,3a,15.8y,52.52h,90.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG-2ga8P6d5KazmNzREog9Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Yet there's a West US 80 re-assurance marker where US 61 begins its short concurrency with I-20:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3477412,-90.8352125,3a,15.7y,276.74h,92.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHZClUxM-faQsXez27csj4Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Eastbound clay street at the I-20 on-ramp, telling Eastbound US 80 traffic to stay on Clay Street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3424265,-90.8423525,3a,41.8y,61.77h,84.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDtrEwjhuksJSUIl02_dDAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And here's an eastbound reassurance marker telling traffic they're on both US 80 and MS 822:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3443754,-90.8275758,3a,17.9y,124.39h,90.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sO0zZD8lZkfaKvBQMgFCswQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And here is the offending state highway map:
http://mdot.ms.gov/documents/planning/Maps/State%20Highway%20Maps/Statewide%20Map%20-%20Front%20Side.pdf
http://mdot.ms.gov/documents/planning/Maps/State%20Highway%20Maps/Statewide%20Map%20-%20Back%20Side.pdf

The I-20 strip map and Vicksburg inset very clearly reference the old highway between Exit 4B and Exit 11 as US 80. I checked the most recent county map on the MSDOT website for Warren County. It only shows MS 822 on the route, but the map is dated 2015. The front side of the state highway map shows a state highway running between both exits as well. It's also worth mentioning all the signage putting US 80 on its older route looks recent.

So what's the verdict? Does Mississippi recognize this section of older route as part of US 80 again? I want to double check with the AARoads community before I make any changes in OpenStreetMap.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 03:10:12 AM by 707 »
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oscar

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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2018, 02:58:35 AM »

And here is the offending state highway map:
http://mdot.ms.gov/documents/planning/Maps/State%20Highway%20Maps/Statewide%20Map%20-%20Front%20Side.pdf
http://mdot.ms.gov/documents/planning/Maps/State%20Highway%20Maps/Statewide%20Map%20-%20Front%20Side.pdf

The I-20 strip map and Vicksburg inset very clearly reference the old highway between Exit 4B and Exit 11 as US 80.

Do you have a link to the strip map and inset? You only posted duplicate links to the front side of the statewide map.
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707

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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2018, 03:10:44 AM »

And here is the offending state highway map:
http://mdot.ms.gov/documents/planning/Maps/State%20Highway%20Maps/Statewide%20Map%20-%20Front%20Side.pdf
http://mdot.ms.gov/documents/planning/Maps/State%20Highway%20Maps/Statewide%20Map%20-%20Front%20Side.pdf

The I-20 strip map and Vicksburg inset very clearly reference the old highway between Exit 4B and Exit 11 as US 80.

Do you have a link to the strip map and inset? You only posted duplicate links to the front side of the statewide map.

I fixed the problem. The back side link is now up where the duplicate was. The back side has the strip maps and insets on it.
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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2018, 09:01:34 AM »

Mississippi has a history of poor signage (witness US 51 in Jackson, for example...it's followed I-55 through the city for 40 years)...my own experience with Mississippi signage goes back 20 years.

The Warren County map I found recently (before this thread) on MDOT's site is dated April, 2018 and still shows MS 822 on old 80....and at that only between the battlefield park and Bovina.  GIS shapefiles (updated regularly and submitted to FHWA annually...latest batch is from July 2018) show the same...it's a state route but not a US route.  It's also worth noting that the most recent MDOT State Designated State Maintained map (updated just 2 weeks ago) also shows the road in question as MS 822 and shows US 80 on I-20.

Given past experience with Mississippi and MDOT, I stick with the GIS shapefiles and county-level maps which are usually better quality than the statewide map that is primarily geared towards tourists (and has numerous errors otherwise).

Bottom line:  US 80 follows I-20.  No changes needed to OSM, though one could argue changing the US 80 tag on the I-20 concurrency in Mississippi to unsigned_ref.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 09:04:06 AM by froggie »
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707

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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2018, 07:17:16 PM »

Mississippi has a history of poor signage (witness US 51 in Jackson, for example...it's followed I-55 through the city for 40 years)...my own experience with Mississippi signage goes back 20 years.

The Warren County map I found recently (before this thread) on MDOT's site is dated April, 2018 and still shows MS 822 on old 80....and at that only between the battlefield park and Bovina.  GIS shapefiles (updated regularly and submitted to FHWA annually...latest batch is from July 2018) show the same...it's a state route but not a US route.  It's also worth noting that the most recent MDOT State Designated State Maintained map (updated just 2 weeks ago) also shows the road in question as MS 822 and shows US 80 on I-20.

Given past experience with Mississippi and MDOT, I stick with the GIS shapefiles and county-level maps which are usually better quality than the statewide map that is primarily geared towards tourists (and has numerous errors otherwise).

Bottom line:  US 80 follows I-20.  No changes needed to OSM, though one could argue changing the US 80 tag on the I-20 concurrency in Mississippi to unsigned_ref.

Yeah. Weird how MSDOT is trying to imply the signed route of US 80 now goes down the old route. Given the official state highway map AND signage are showing it... Either way, AASHTO only recognizes the concurrency with I-20 through the whole county.

Edit: Just looked at the Warren County PDF you sent. It shows no revision date at all on the document. Just the year 2015. But good catch on the GIS and state maintenance map. Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 07:24:31 PM by 707 »
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froggie

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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2018, 08:47:35 PM »

^ Bottom right corner has the last updated date.  4/16/2018.
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cjk374

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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 09:43:11 PM »

Here is something stranger: at Bovina on old 80, MSDOT recently replaced a US 80 shield with an erroneous SR 80 shield!   :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :no: :no:

I am so sorry to mapmakers, AASHTO, MSDOT, & whatever official paperwork exists....but I go by the signage! US 80 & MS 822 run concurrent on the original slab of US 80 between Vicksburg & Bovina. drops the mic
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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 10:19:32 PM »

^ By your logic, 80 "doesn't exist" between Bovina and Clinton..

picks up mic and throws it back at you
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cjk374

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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2018, 06:33:19 AM »

^ By your logic, 80 "doesn't exist" between Bovina and Clinton..

picks up mic and throws it back at you

You are correct. MSDOT & ARDOT are kindred spirits that need good ass beatings for abusing important US routes. Such gaps in signage must be fixed.
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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 03:36:38 PM »

I've come to a few conclusions after much thought.

MSDOT likely recognizes this strange anomaly route as a part of active US 80 given all the signage and referencing in the field and on the official highway map, yet forgot to update the county maps for some odd reason. The signage also seems to suggest MSDOT might be toying with the idea of reinstating US 80 as a State Highway between Exit 11 and Edwards or building a state maintained connector road between "US 80"/SR 822 and Exit 11, filling in a small maintenance gap.

Whatever their plan is, they will have to overcome the obstacle of a maintenance gap between the eastern terminus of SR 822 and Exit 11. The roadways US 80 would have to utilize to rejoin I-20 at Exit 11 are not part of a state maintained highway as far as existong documents show. They can't leave a maintenance gap like that on a US Highway, so something will have to be done to fix tgat problem. The issue with the roadway between Edwards and Exit 11 besides it currently being a county highway, is the lack of proper shoulders and the 1925 steel bridge between Vicksburg and Edwards MSDOT would need to do something about in order to gain AASHTO approval. The route through Edwards proper is currently the northern part of SR 467, which has in recent years, been rerouted slightly to take over a few more blocks of former US 80 through town, as suggested by recent changes in signage. These changes are well documented on Google Maps street view pictures. Does this hint at a possible return of US 80 on its older route between Edwards and Vicksburg? There's no solid evidence to suggest this at the moment. It appears the SR 467 reroute was more likely done to eliminate a dangerous curve in the route. Im only saying that should MSDOT re-adopt the old alignment of US 80, this would help make the process simpler as a dedicated state highway connection to I-20 through Edwards utilizing part of the older route is already well established.

It's also very clear this anomaly has no AASHTO approval. The official US 80 by de jure still runs concurrently with I-20 between Exit 4B and Exit 11 in Warren County, even if MSDOT doesn't recognize that route any longer. So as far as that goes, nothing's changed.

SR 822 is now a signed and referenced route east of SR 27. Signage on SR 27 and reassurance signage on the eastern section of SR 822 very clearly shows SR 822 shields. I have updated ONLY the SR 822 references on OSM east of SR 27 to reflect this. However, no SR 822 signage exists on the western half. Even MSDOT signage on SR 27 suggests MSDOT wants drivers to think SR 822 ends there. Currently, the western section is signed and referenced as US 80 only.

I did not change the US 80 references on OSM, keeping US 80 on the AASHTO defined route with I-20. At the moment, there's no strong reasoning to change that.

VS988

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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2018, 04:41:45 PM »

At Bovina, just east of the overpass that goes over old 80, does have a SR 822 WEST reassurance assembly next to a US 80 WEST assembly on the same pole. But there are no reassurance assemblies east of Bovina.
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Re: US 80 through Warren County, Mississippi
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2018, 05:26:45 PM »

Quote
MSDOT likely recognizes this strange anomaly route as a part of active US 80 given all the signage and referencing in the field and on the official highway map, yet forgot to update the county maps for some odd reason.

I think it's the other way around, given my own experience and dealings with MDOT (having been stationed in the state three times).  For starters, the "official highway map" you mention is really the tourist map.  It's not THE official highway map.  That would be the State Designated State Maintained map as well as the Selected Statistics book.  The former was updated just last month and shows US 80 on I-20, not with MS 822.

MDOT's county level maps are based on their updated GIS shapefiles, which need to be updated at least annually per FHWA requirements.  I would consider those far more official (and accurate) than the state highway map.

Another point of confusion for some (including perhaps even the sign placers) is that the streetname for the roadway is "Highway 80"...a name that even extends east of Bovina despite the fact that US 80 hasn't run on it there since the 1950s.  It's not uncommon for bypassed road segments in Mississippi to retain their old designation as a streetname.

It also wouldn't be the first time that signs went up for something that was changed years (even decades) previously.  Examples include US 98 signage west of Bude, "Business 61" and "Business 84" in Natchez, US 51 between the 20/55 junction and State St (it really follows I-55), and "Business 45" in Meridian.  I also recall an error circle shield "East 80" somewhere in Bovina back in the day.

Quote
They can't leave a maintenance gap like that on a US Highway, so something will have to be done to fix tgat problem.

Not necessarily.  There are examples of locally-maintained US route segments in Mississippi along US 11 in Hattiesburg and Laurel and US 278 in Amory.
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