CT 4 used to continue as NY 4!

[dgolub]

I've been looking at an old 1963 map that I obtained from Dutchess County (and plan to upload to my site once I find somewhere with the equipment to scan it) that CT 4 used to continue along the current CT 361 to the New York border and then into New York as NY 4.  It seems like they must have decided to renumber it to avoid confusion with US 4, and they also renumbered a piece in Connecticut as CT 361 for consistency with the new designation of NY 361.  Then, NY 361 was decommissioned, leaving the current mess.

[hotdogPi]

"CT-4" is a county route, according to Google Maps. If you zoom in closely enough, County Route "CT-4" is multiplexed with "4", "Hwy 4", and "Rte 4" (all county routes).

And according to Google Maps, NY 361 exists.

[NE2]

Goog-Goog-a-Goog

Most useless reply ever.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_361 it was created in the 1930s. That looks correct; a 1939 map clearly shows CT 4 becoming NY 361. So does a 1948 topo. I think the Dutchess County map is full of shit.

[dgolub]

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_361 it was created in the 1930s. That looks correct; a 1939 map clearly shows CT 4 becoming NY 361. So does a 1948 topo. I think the Dutchess County map is full of shit.

Unless they renumbered it from NY 361 to NY 4 and then back to NY 361?  There was a similar situation with the continuation of CT 124 into New York.  First it was NY 137A, then NY 394, then it was decommissioned altogether.

[kurumi]

US 4 has existed in NY state since 1926. AFAICT NY has always avoided duplication unless the state route is the continuation of an interstate route. State route 4 anytime after 1926 is really really doubtful.

Sometimes even the most official sources have mistakes. CT 350 freeway in Groton; CT 90 in Killingly, that sort of stuff. Sometimes it's an obvious typo. Sometimes it triggers that X-Files part of your brain that really really wants it to be true.

[NE2]

In particular, NY 4 (numbered to match PA 4) was renumbered NY 2 in 1926. (Later it was US 15.)

But a conflicting number assigned to match another state is plausible.

[cl94]

US 4 has existed in NY state since 1926. AFAICT NY has always avoided duplication unless the state route is the continuation of an interstate route. State route 4 anytime after 1926 is really really doubtful.

Sometimes even the most official sources have mistakes. CT 350 freeway in Groton; CT 90 in Killingly, that sort of stuff. Sometimes it's an obvious typo. Sometimes it triggers that X-Files part of your brain that really really wants it to be true.

New York typically avoids duplications between US and NY routes, except in the cases of US 2 and US 15. US 2 is NY 2U and it's only in the state for a mile, while NY 15 was once US 15.

Interstates are another story and there are several instances of duplication, as an Interstate in New York is officially NY XXI. 78, 86, 88, 95, 190, 278, 290, and 295 are duplicated.

[Duke87]

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_361 it was created in the 1930s. That looks correct; a 1939 map clearly shows CT 4 becoming NY 361. So does a 1948 topo. I think the Dutchess County map is full of shit.

Unless they renumbered it from NY 361 to NY 4 and then back to NY 361?  There was a similar situation with the continuation of CT 124 into New York.  First it was NY 137A, then NY 394, then it was decommissioned altogether.

Doubt it. CT 4 was a number created by Connecticut. And New York generally doesn't renumber routes to match other states so that wasn't what happened. No other source shows a NY 4 there, what you are seeing is no doubt a map error where some cartographer accidentally carried the designation from CT over.

As for NY 124, that's an even weirder situation. According to Wikipedia it was truncated from the state line back to Pound Ridge "by 1970", and yet I remember it being signed as continuing to the state line even in the late 1990s. Of course signage disagreeing with the route log in NY is... well, not unheard of.

Today, the former route south of Pound Ridge is signed like this:


...yeeeeah.

[cl94]

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_361 it was created in the 1930s. That looks correct; a 1939 map clearly shows CT 4 becoming NY 361. So does a 1948 topo. I think the Dutchess County map is full of shit.

Unless they renumbered it from NY 361 to NY 4 and then back to NY 361?  There was a similar situation with the continuation of CT 124 into New York.  First it was NY 137A, then NY 394, then it was decommissioned altogether.

Doubt it. CT 4 was a number created by Connecticut. And New York generally doesn't renumber routes to match other states so that wasn't what happened. No other source shows a NY 4 there, what you are seeing is no doubt a map error where some cartographer accidentally carried the designation from CT over.

As for NY 124, that's an even weirder situation. According to Wikipedia it was truncated from the state line back to Pound Ridge "by 1970", and yet I remember it being signed as continuing to the state line even in the late 1990s. Of course signage disagreeing with the route log in NY is... well, not unheard of.

Today, the former route south of Pound Ridge is signed like this:
[image snipped]

...yeeeeah.

Really? I know NYSDOT has access to squares, circles, keystones, and green ovals because I've seem them posted all along the borders. Just laziness.

[dgolub]

As for NY 124, that's an even weirder situation. According to Wikipedia it was truncated from the state line back to Pound Ridge "by 1970", and yet I remember it being signed as continuing to the state line even in the late 1990s. Of course signage disagreeing with the route log in NY is... well, not unheard of.

I've got an official NYSDOT touring route book from 1970 up on my site that doesn't show any designation for Westchester Avenue, so that's probably where they got the "by 1970" from.  I know from talking to Adam that they often use that document as a source at Wikipedia.

As far as the current signage, I wonder if it was made deliberately ambiguous so that it could be read as either going to CT 124 or to Connecticut on NY 124.  That way, they could take the first reading to say that it's consistent with what's on paper, while motorists could take the second reading when following old maps that still show Westchester Avenue as NY 124.

[dgolub]

New York typically avoids duplications between US and NY routes, except in the cases of US 2 and US 15. US 2 is NY 2U and it's only in the state for a mile, while NY 15 was once US 15.

If the map was accurate, NY 4 wouldn't have been much longer than the New York section of US 2.

[cl94]

New York typically avoids duplications between US and NY routes, except in the cases of US 2 and US 15. US 2 is NY 2U and it's only in the state for a mile, while NY 15 was once US 15.

If the map was accurate, NY 4 wouldn't have been much longer than the New York section of US 2.

Yes. They probably wouldn't have had much of an issue with it (NY 4 would likely be SR 4S or something similar)

[Duke87]

As far as the current signage, I wonder if it was made deliberately ambiguous so that it could be read as either going to CT 124 or to Connecticut on NY 124.  That way, they could take the first reading to say that it's consistent with what's on paper, while motorists could take the second reading when following old maps that still show Westchester Avenue as NY 124.

I'd say it's more just a creative frankensign job. They probably reused an old NY 124 shield that was already posted in the area, and I think both banners were once TO banners. The second TO banner is rotated 180 degrees with a whiteout N pasted over the T, and a C and second N stenciled on to make it read CONN.