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Tolling Methods Compared

Started by theroadwayone, September 14, 2018, 12:46:35 AM

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abefroman329

Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 08:49:33 AM
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.

How would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it?   What would the toll agency do if you did that?

The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.
At a barrier toll plaza, they wouldn't let you through if you had a negative balance associated with the transponder. Same as what would happen if I tried to get on the L using a Ventra card with a negative balance.

At any rate, the complaints I've heard from those likeliest to line their baseball caps with tinfoil is the fact that "the government"  is tracking your moves using your toll transponder. Methods of replenishment are largely irrelevant to them (though they probably hate credit/debit cards too).


J N Winkler

Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 05:03:55 PMI would love to see more physical payment option - like ATMs - at nearby locations. I suspect many stores and gas stations would be happy to get extra visitors, and rest/service areas are already there. It is hard to justify extra footprint on a road itself, especially in urban areas with high traffic.  Online payment is better than nothing, though.  It's a matter of being willing to create extra options as opposed to benefiting from fees and fines...

The Illinois Tollway has a partnership with Jewel-Osco stores in the Chicago area that allow toll road users to obtain (and possibly also activate and recharge) toll transponders over the counter.  This is useful when Internet access is unavailable, the lead time is too short for delivery by mail, or it is late at night and the Tollway service centers are all closed.

The really important thing, I feel, is to avoid setups like NTTA's ZipCash system.  "Cash" in the name sounds like it is possible to settle on the spot with cash, but it is actually a pay-by-plate system, with no option for settling the toll bill before NTTA bills you.  (A well-designed pay-by-plate system, like the FasTrak setup used for the San Francisco Bay Area bridges, allows you to specify a license plate, billing window, and payment instrument in advance; NTTA makes it impossible for you to pay until they bill you because an invoice number has to be supplied with the remittance.)

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 07:06:15 PMLiterally anyone with an EZ-Pass or a toll transponder that's compatible with EZ-Pass is entitled to the discounted I-Pass rate. It's far from "soak the strangers."

The "soak the strangers" complaint is not about the Illinois Tollway but rather about other E-ZPass toll agencies that offer commuter discount plans that are tied to residence in a particular commutershed, such as the New York Thruway's discount for the Grand Island bridges on the Niagara Thruway that is available only to residents on Grand Island.  This is arguably discrimination on the basis of residency, but attempts at getting the federal courts to buy this argument have so far not proved successful.

One logical and effective remedy is to make buy-in to commuter discount plans available to everyone, at the same price, regardless of the actual agency issuing the transponder.  For example, if I had an I-Pass but was located in the Buffalo area for my job (a plausible scenario for, e.g., my uncle, who worked for a company that was headquartered in Chicago and had a house in Naperville, but spent a large share of his working time in Tonawanda, New York), this setup would allow me to pay a set amount each year to access the commuter discount for the Grand Island bridges with my I-Pass.

Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 08:49:33 AMHow would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it?   What would the toll agency do if you did that?

The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.

The underlying problem is that the E-ZPass group is unwilling to contemplate billing in arrears, apparently because the agencies want to collect interest on funds on deposit and also retain the opportunity to charge fees when accounts are temporarily depleted before auto-replenishment kicks in.  These practices border on the predatory, and take-up of transponders would likely be higher if they were abolished.

In the Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas interoperability area, all billing (at least in Kansas) is in arrears.  Tolls are allowed to accumulate on account before they are zeroed through automated withdrawal at the end of the month, if the outstanding balance is above a threshold amount, or at the end of the current six-month zero-out period, if the balance is below the threshold.  The only catch is that the payment instrument linked to the account has to be valid at the time zero-out is sought.  If it is not (usually because the credit card linked to the account has expired), then the outstanding balance has to be resolved as a late payment.  For this reason the KTA encourages K-Tag holders to link their checking accounts to their K-Tag accounts rather than simply their credit cards.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

jeffandnicole

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 10:27:33 AM
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 08:49:33 AM
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.

How would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it?   What would the toll agency do if you did that?

The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.
At a barrier toll plaza, they wouldn't let you through if you had a negative balance associated with the transponder...

Not true (at least at most agencies).

With auto-replenishment, they replenish the card after you get below a certain amount, but that occurs overnight.  Well, if I have a $22 balance and take a long ride on the PA Turnpike, it'll drop it below $0.  I have had no problem continuing onto the Ohio turnpike, which has gates.  The system knows I'm good for the money due to the replenishment that'll occur that night.

Also, many agencies don't use gates, so there's nothing to stop you.

Also, of the agencies that have gates - they'll still rise even with no balance, or no EZ Pass whatsoever.  The lane would quickly jam up with people waiting to go thru behind the stopped car, and that causes numerous other issues.  Most agencies have video surveillance and will send the account holder a bill and/or fee for the unpaid toll.

abefroman329

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2018, 11:12:08 AM
Also, of the agencies that have gates - they'll still rise even with no balance, or no EZ Pass whatsoever.  The lane would quickly jam up with people waiting to go thru behind the stopped car, and that causes numerous other issues.  Most agencies have video surveillance and will send the account holder a bill and/or fee for the unpaid toll.
This is absolutely not how it works on the Indiana Toll Road. The barriers stay down if there's any sort of issue at all with the transponder.

stwoodbury

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 07:06:15 PM
Literally anyone with an EZ-Pass or a toll transponder that's compatible with EZ-Pass is entitled to the discounted I-Pass rate. It's far from "soak the strangers."  And yes, the fee to use a toll transponder in a rental car is usurious. So is the fee for XM. You can get a month of streaming for what you pay the rental agency to use it for two days.
Rental car companies are notorious for finding ways to triple or quadruple the cost of renting a car. The base rate of 19.99 a day (which sounds really cheap) can easily top 60 or 70 dollars a day if you accept the extras like additional insurance, a gps, xm radio, toll transponders, etc. not to mention the taxes. I recall a rental car company in Belgium charging an extra 10 or 15 EUR a day for the special type of tires (not studded more like all-weather) that are required on all vehicles in Germany a during winter months. It would be cheaper to pay the fine if you got caught.


iPhone

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 10:27:33 AMAt any rate, the complaints I've heard from those likeliest to line their baseball caps with tinfoil is the fact that "the government"  is tracking your moves using your toll transponder.

Of course, those folks tend to forget that this concern is readily addressed by placing one's transponder in a Faraday bag when not in use.


1995hoo

I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.

Ultimately, it's the user's responsibility to ensure there's a sufficient balance, regardless of whether he replenishes with cash, credit, mailing in a check or money order, or some other means (do some agencies offer direct debit?). If you have to get a new credit card number for whatever reason, or (more commonly) if you get a new card when your old one is about to expire, it's still your responsibility to update your payment method.




Quote... tinfoil ...

Where does one even buy tinfoil these days? All the stores I visit only sell aluminum foil (although it works just fine for faraday cage purposes; I recently tested it with the keyless remote for my wife's TLX).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

stwoodbury

Quote from: theroadwayone on September 14, 2018, 12:46:35 AM
In case no one has done this before, here are the three main methods that are used for collecting highway tolls.

Ticket system
Method: Closed, distance-based payment. Ticket with prices to exits (and highway termini) is obtained at entry and handed over with toll at exit.
Benefits: Tolls are collected mainly at exits, eliminating need for frequent mainline toll plazas, except at the ends of the highway. All traffic entering and exiting can be clustered into a single interchange for getting tickets/paying tolls, in most instances leading to less traffic. Good for long-haul roads.
Drawbacks: Usually only a small number of interchanges can be built, owing to the cost of building them along with the toll booths (although the PA Turnpike, with the EZ-Pass-only slip ramps, gets around that.) Along with that, congestion can occur at the tolls as the vast majority of toll lanes are low-speed.

Barrier toll system
Method: A system of toll barriers charging flat fares along regular intervals of the highway, usually in conjunction with tolls at entrances and exits.
Benefits: The need for usually only one or two mainline barriers makes it ideal for shorter-distance highways. Exits usually need tolls facing only one direction, usually away from the plaza. Some can even get away with having no ramp tolls at all.
Drawbacks: The presence of multiple toll plazas along a highway can slow traffic down quite a bit, though ETC can take a bite out of that. Also, not having exit tolls at some exits can lead to "shunpiking" and loss of revenue.

Open road tolling
Method: Same as a barrier toll, in some respects, but completely electronic.
Benefits: Saves money from having to build and maintain cash tollbooths. Traffic can continuously move at highway speeds. On top of that, all-electronic toll roads can fit into tighter areas, without need for a wider cash toll point.
Drawbacks: There are going to be plenty of users who don't pay. This, though, can be cracked down on with monetary and legal penalties to the most habitual violators.

Those are some of the benefits and drawbacks to the different tolling systems in common use. Shout out any others you can think of below. Thanks!
The "ticket"  system seems like the best to me until I come to the toll road (say the Penna Turnpike) and find that I miscalculated and that I am thirty miles from the closest on ramp, so I end  up driving on the slower alternative(ie US 30) for a significant distance.

The barrier system is okay for short segments like the VA267 Greenway between Dulles and Leesburg in Virginia where you only hit it once and EZ lanes clears everyone through fairly quickly, but these are a pain on a long distance road like the major Autoroutes in France where every ten or twenty miles you have to stop to pay a toll, which quickly eats up your on hand cash unless you have their equivalent of an EZ Pass, and they create a lot of backups. I was able to use a credit card in certain lanes. If I recall right, cash drivers had 3-4 lanes and the transponder or credit card drivers could use  the other 5-7 or so lanes which moved a lot faster. If you had to pay cash then you waited... With the shorter routes sometimes the amount seems like highway robbery (literally), such as the $6.50 charged each way during peak times on VA 267 between Dulles and Leesburg, which amounts to over $200 a month if you take that route every day. Luckily I leave early enough that VA 7 (Leesburg Pike) is a viable option, but between 7-9am and 4-6pm that is horribly congested compared to the toll option, in which case $6.50 sounds like a bargain compared to the extra 30-60 minutes longer commute inching along 7. I guess this decision point of weighing tine and money is what the toll advocates like to provide us with because certainly, if the toll on 267 stopped tomorrow, then a lot of the traffic on 7 would shift to 267, which would overwhelm that road, especially since its junction with 15 and 7 in Leesburg is already congested with the toll in place.

The third option "open road tolling"  I guess works okay, but I like the confirmation that comes from the green light at the toll both barriers on the first two options. I don't like the idea of thinking I am in order until a stack of violation notices start showing up in my mailbox several days later. The two examples in the DC area are the Beltway express lanes and I-66 in Arlington during peak times, but I don't have enough experience using them to know how much of a problem this is.

There is a fourth option that I like - paying gas taxes at the pump and not even bothering with tolls.


abefroman329

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
Where does one even buy tinfoil these days?
Oh, I bet you'd just love it
If I told you, narc!

EZ-Passes come with bags to be used as Faraday cages, and anyway, the issue the more conspiracy-minded is with being tracked while using toll transponders for their intended use, not at other times.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2018, 11:12:08 AM
Also, of the agencies that have gates - they'll still rise even with no balance, or no EZ Pass whatsoever.  The lane would quickly jam up with people waiting to go thru behind the stopped car, and that causes numerous other issues.  Most agencies have video surveillance and will send the account holder a bill and/or fee for the unpaid toll.
This is absolutely not how it works on the Indiana Toll Road. The barriers stay down if there’s any sort of issue at all with the transponder.

Hopefully traffic is light enough to deal with such issues out there.  That would never work on the east coast where the gate often doesn't even have a chance to come down with traffic flying thru the lane right behind each other!

Beltway

#60
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 10:27:33 AM
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 08:49:33 AM
How would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it?   What would the toll agency do if you did that?
The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.
At a barrier toll plaza, they wouldn't let you through if you had a negative balance associated with the transponder. Same as what would happen if I tried to get on the L using a Ventra card with a negative balance.

At a barrier toll plaza, there is no good way to turn a vehicle around, and unless there is a police officer there, no way to detain the vehicle.  Unless they want to keep the toll gate down but that causes a traffic backup.

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.

If someone knows they will have a lot of expensive activity soon, I suppose they could deposit far more than the common replenishment level of $35.  I suppose you could deposit $200 or $300 or whatever.
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http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
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kalvado

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.
Whatever it worth..
Quote from: FDICEstimates from the 2015 survey indicate that 7.0 percent of households in the United States were unbanked in 2015. This proportion represents approximately 9.0 million households. An additional 19.9 percent of U.S. households (24.5 million) were underbanked, meaning that the household had a checking or savings account but also obtained financial products and services outside of the banking system.
Whether we like it or not, there are enough people around who have no, or very limited, banking access. So it may be a matter of necessity, not a matter of choice.
Private for-profit may cinsider these people to be of little interest (although Amazon works hard to let them use Amazon services, for example). Road agencies are on a slightly different page, though.

1995hoo

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 01:20:31 PM
....

EZ-Passes come with bags to be used as Faraday cages, and anyway, the issue the more conspiracy-minded is with being tracked while using toll transponders for their intended use, not at other times.

Not all agencies provide the "no-read bag." Virginia doesn't, or at least they didn't when I got our Virginia transponders (and they didn't offer me any when I swapped them for E-ZPass Flexes last year).




Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 02:37:29 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.

If someone knows they will have a lot of expensive activity soon, I suppose they could deposit far more than the common replenishment level of $35.  I suppose you could deposit $200 or $300 or whatever.

You can do that if you have auto-replenishment, too, at least in Virginia anyway since their website provides a "make a one-time payment" option. I did that before a drive to Maine a few years back, prior to when I had two transponders on the one account, because I was concerned the number of out-of-state tolls might cause a negative balance if the replenishment didn't happen promptly (and indeed they didn't).

I've had SunPass replenishments post within minutes of going through a toll plaza, but that's slightly different because I've only ever used SunPass in Florida so there's no issue of out-of-state posting delays.




Quote from: kalvado on September 15, 2018, 05:05:26 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.
Whatever it worth..
Quote from: FDICEstimates from the 2015 survey indicate that 7.0 percent of households in the United States were unbanked in 2015. This proportion represents approximately 9.0 million households. An additional 19.9 percent of U.S. households (24.5 million) were underbanked, meaning that the household had a checking or savings account but also obtained financial products and services outside of the banking system.
Whether we like it or not, there are enough people around who have no, or very limited, banking access. So it may be a matter of necessity, not a matter of choice.
Private for-profit may cinsider these people to be of little interest (although Amazon works hard to let them use Amazon services, for example). Road agencies are on a slightly different page, though.

But I don't see how that changes anything I said. Regardless of whether you use a bank or not, you can still keep track of your E-ZPass balance and then replenish it as needed even if you use cash, regardless of whether you store that cash under your mattress, in a coffee can in the refrigerator, tucked in your bra if you're female, or wherever. My point is that it's the user's responsibility to ensure his account is adequately funded regardless of what payment method he uses.

I guess in my mind it's similar in principle to it being your obligation to renew your car's registration on time regardless of whether you receive a reminder notice from the DMV. The woman across the street currently has a ticket on her car, which is parked on a public street with expired license plates.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

abefroman329

Ah, we bought our EZ-Pass in NJ and it came with a no-read bag. I don't believe my I-Pass came with one.

UCFKnights

Quote from: theroadwayone on September 15, 2018, 12:48:14 AM
In regards to the idea of refilling an ETC account using cash, I think Puerto Rico has a few toll roads with dedicated "replenishment" lanes, and I also heard once that Florida was doing something similar.
Orlando has tested this concept using a couple lanes that are no longer needed due to the increase in electronic toll collection. They're actually full service lanes, so you can even buy a transponder in that lane.

One other concept unique in the Orlando area (at least I haven't seen it before) is as a compromise between the benefits of a ticketed system vs barrier system, there are a few toll booths that actually provide a credit on your account as well. In other words, a last entrance before a barrier toll may come with a 0.50 credit towards the barrier toll you're about to hit. Orlando's also got its tolls on roads with at grade intersections along with Florida having some tolls on a single lane undivided highways.

Florida's got it all on the toll systems: some areas AET, some barrier tolls, some ticket systems, some bridge tolls don't take any electronic methods of payment, in addition to the things I mentioned above.

Beltway

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 06:52:55 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 02:37:29 PM
If someone knows they will have a lot of expensive activity soon, I suppose they could deposit far more than the common replenishment level of $35.  I suppose you could deposit $200 or $300 or whatever.
You can do that if you have auto-replenishment, too, at least in Virginia anyway since their website provides a "make a one-time payment" option. I did that before a drive to Maine a few years back, prior to when I had two transponders on the one account, because I was concerned the number of out-of-state tolls might cause a negative balance if the replenishment didn't happen promptly (and indeed they didn't).

So doesn't EZPassVA have that covered?  I never knew that might be a problem, that if I incurred a lot of expensive tolls out of state that the replenishment level of $35 wouldn't take care of that without me having to do anything different. 

The only expensive tolls I use are here, with the HOT lanes on I-95 and I-495.

What would happen if I incurred $50 in tolls out of state in one day, would EZPass not work if it exceeded $35?
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

1995hoo

Quote from: Beltway on September 16, 2018, 02:16:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 06:52:55 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 02:37:29 PM
If someone knows they will have a lot of expensive activity soon, I suppose they could deposit far more than the common replenishment level of $35.  I suppose you could deposit $200 or $300 or whatever.
You can do that if you have auto-replenishment, too, at least in Virginia anyway since their website provides a "make a one-time payment" option. I did that before a drive to Maine a few years back, prior to when I had two transponders on the one account, because I was concerned the number of out-of-state tolls might cause a negative balance if the replenishment didn't happen promptly (and indeed they didn't).

So doesn't EZPassVA have that covered?  I never knew that might be a problem, that if I incurred a lot of expensive tolls out of state that the replenishment level of $35 wouldn't take care of that without me having to do anything different. 

The only expensive tolls I use are here, with the HOT lanes on I-95 and I-495.

What would happen if I incurred $50 in tolls out of state in one day, would EZPass not work if it exceeded $35?

I don't know. It wouldn't likely be an issue for me now because we have two transponders, which means a $70 replenishment. Back then I didn't have two and I didn't want to find out whether slow-posting transactions would cause a problem. It was easier just to make a one-time $50 payment. Might not have been necessary, but not having to think about it was a positive.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Beltway

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 16, 2018, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 16, 2018, 02:16:35 PM
What would happen if I incurred $50 in tolls out of state in one day, would EZPass not work if it exceeded $35?
I don't know. It wouldn't likely be an issue for me now because we have two transponders, which means a $70 replenishment. Back then I didn't have two and I didn't want to find out whether slow-posting transactions would cause a problem. It was easier just to make a one-time $50 payment. Might not have been necessary, but not having to think about it was a positive.

Here is what it says.  Indirectly it is saying that there are many EZPass states, and that they can't speak for what another state's tollroad would do in such a case.  Like you say, better safe than sorry.  I also found the page on the website where you can make an additional payment online.

https://www.ezpassva.com/EZPages/Maintenance.aspx

Replenishing your account balance
- When your E-ZPass account reaches a balance less than or equal to the account's replenishment threshold—minimum $10.00 per transponder.
- If you choose to set your account to automatically replenish, your pre-determined replenishment amount will be transferred into your account within 24 hours of reaching the replenishment threshold. If you experience problems, you should contact the E-ZPass Customer Service Centers.
- If you choose to replenish manually, that's easy, too. You can add funds to your account by phone or online with a credit card, or mail your payment to one of our E-ZPass Customer Service Centers.
- It can take up to 24 hours for new accounts, payments, and new transponders to be activated and reflected at Virginia toll plazas, and up to 48 hours out of state.
- If you are traveling out of state and replenish your account by cash, it's a good idea to check your balance before you go.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Super Mateo

Personally, I much prefer the ticket system that is used in Ohio and Pennsylvania.  It feels much fairer to me than barrier tolling.  We pay based on our mileage using the road, with a slightly reduced rate per mile for longer trips.  We don't have to pay multiple times, unless a barrier is put in (like PA's one way toll near the OH border).  There used to be less stops, but open road tolling fixed that issue.

With barriers, we could end up paying multiple tolls which tend to add up after a while.  However, Illinois likes to put partial interchanges where the ramps lead right into or out of a barrier.  That leads to stuff like I-80 eastbound, where a toll is paid (which is an inexpensive toll, so it's not bad here), but it doesn't matter where we get off (the options are Dixie, Halsted, or I-94/IL 394), the same amount is paid.  It doesn't matter if we go the few blocks to Dixie or all 5 miles to I-80/94 straight ahead.  Same amount.  On I-294, the tolls are cheap enough that this isn't much of an issue, but when applied to I-88 or I-355 or the Skyway, it can be a bit unfair.

J N Winkler

I was a little perplexed by Jeffandnicole's comment that replenishment lag can run overnight, so I did a GPS log study of my one and only I-Pass replenishment, which occurred when I dipped below my preconfigured replenishment threshold ($10) on Illinois Tollway infrastructure on 2018-07-29.

I entered Illinois with a balance on account of $11.60.  I passed through the South Beloit toll plaza ($0.95) and the Dixon toll plaza ($1.80).  The latter transit pushed me past the replenishment threshold.  My GPS log for the trip says I cleared the toll plaza at 6.22 PM.  The email informing me my account had replenished automatically was timestamped at 9.35 PM.

This translates to a delay of more than three hours in a situation where the toll transponder was issued by the same agency that handled the replenishment and assessed the toll that put the account past the replenishment threshold.

I don't remember exactly what the Illinois Tollway does with an account when a transponder linked to that account incurs fresh tolls (through tolling point transits) while the account balance is transiently negative.  My recollection of the fine print, however, is that the Tollway does not guarantee the auto-replenishment mechanism will protect the customer from violation fines, even when the transponder is working 100% correctly, the vehicle license plate is registered, and the payment instrument specified for replenishment is continuously valid and able to supply the required funds.  Other E-ZPass agencies may have a hold-harmless provision of this kind, but it would naturally apply only to transponders issued by those agencies.

This is why pre-payment as 1995hoo suggests confers added insulation from risk.  The interest on a one-month float is insignificant, and it eliminates absolutely the need to consider variables such as replenishment lag, toll posting lag, any bunching of toll postings that may occur when E-ZPass agencies foreign to the transponder issuer are involved, the financial consequences of allowing the account balance to go negative for any length of time, etc.
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kalvado

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 16, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
I was a little perplexed by Jeffandnicole's comment that replenishment lag can run overnight, so I did a GPS log study of my one and only I-Pass replenishment, which occurred when I dipped below my preconfigured replenishment threshold ($10) on Illinois Tollway infrastructure on 2018-07-29.

I entered Illinois with a balance on account of $11.60.  I passed through the South Beloit toll plaza ($0.95) and the Dixon toll plaza ($1.80).  The latter transit pushed me past the replenishment threshold.  My GPS log for the trip says I cleared the toll plaza at 6.22 PM.  The email informing me my account had replenished automatically was timestamped at 9.35 PM.

This translates to a delay of more than three hours in a situation where the toll transponder was issued by the same agency that handled the replenishment and assessed the toll that put the account past the replenishment threshold.

I don't remember exactly what the Illinois Tollway does with an account when a transponder linked to that account incurs fresh tolls (through tolling point transits) while the account balance is transiently negative.  My recollection of the fine print, however, is that the Tollway does not guarantee the auto-replenishment mechanism will protect the customer from violation fines, even when the transponder is working 100% correctly, the vehicle license plate is registered, and the payment instrument specified for replenishment is continuously valid and able to supply the required funds.  Other E-ZPass agencies may have a hold-harmless provision of this kind, but it would naturally apply only to transponders issued by those agencies.

This is why pre-payment as 1995hoo suggests confers added insulation from risk.  The interest on a one-month float is insignificant, and it eliminates absolutely the need to consider variables such as replenishment lag, toll posting lag, any bunching of toll postings that may occur when E-ZPass agencies foreign to the transponder issuer are involved, the financial consequences of allowing the account balance to go negative for any length of time, etc.

My experience with NY Thruway was a lag of 3 days between account going into the red on Sunday (and one more toll after that) and automatic replenishment on Wednesday. Thruway treated that as a non-event. ANother such situation was account dipping into red on Saturday and replenished on Tuesday. All with autoreplenishment from a credit card, which should be an instant transaction.
Maybe 10+ years of account history did help somehow ...

Beltway

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 16, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
This is why pre-payment as 1995hoo suggests confers added insulation from risk.  The interest on a one-month float is insignificant, and it eliminates absolutely the need to consider variables such as replenishment lag, toll posting lag, any bunching of toll postings that may occur when E-ZPass agencies foreign to the transponder issuer are involved, the financial consequences of allowing the account balance to go negative for any length of time, etc.

I have had tolls as high as $28 to use the HOT lanes on I-95 and I-495, and it is usually above $12, and I have been using them about 4 times a year since they opened, but I have never yet had a replenishment issue with EZPassVA.  On those trips other than the Bay Bridge or a short section of the PA Turnpike there are no other tolls.

The online interface at EZPassVA does enable you to set a higher replenishment amount, and to make onetime deposits.  But the replenishment threshold seems to be unchangeable at $10.

EZPassVA knows that I am their customer and that my bills are always paid, so they likely have no reason to penalize if there is a replenishment delay.  But another state's EZPass might not do that, they might refuse to pay the toll; so if I know I'll be paying say $50 in tolls in another state it would be wise to put extra money into the account, and that is no big deal it will eventually be used in any case.
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jeffandnicole

The system is way smarter than you think.

I have my EZ Pass registered to a credit card with auto replenishment. If I go thru an EZ Pass lane and the toll causes my balance to be $2.75, the screen will read "GO EZ PASS PAID".

If someone that doesn't have auto replenishment goes thru a toll that causes their EZ Pass balance to drop to $2.75, they'll get a "GO LOW BAL" message.

The system knows your account in real time. It knows how you pay for your account. It has nothing to do with your history.or any other factors.

Beltway

#73
The replenishment deposit is not in real time, from what I have been seeing here.  Sounds like a computer batch job that is run after midnight.  So the balance could drop below zero and it might be up to 24 hours before a new replenishment deposit is drafted into your account.


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1995hoo

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 16, 2018, 09:10:22 PM
....

The system knows your account in real time. It knows how you pay for your account. It has nothing to do with your history.or any other factors.


But "know[ing] your account in real time"  only means it knows what's posted. Suppose, I don't know, you've driven on toll roads in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine that day, they would give you a low balance, but those tolls have not all posted. The next barrier toll in Maine isn't going to return the "low balance"  message because that information isn't there yet.
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