Virginia

[Rothman]

That's the initial financial plan from 2023.  What would be more interesting is what the engineer's estimate was more recently -- like I said, at Final RFP, the design-build equivalent to PS&E.
And it looks like you made the mistake of comparing total costs to the contract awards which only include detailed design, construction and construction inspection for design-build contracts, anyway.  Not a huge difference percentage-wise, though.

These as mentioned are design-build contracts that include right-of-way acquisition, everything but:
VDOT Project Oversight Costs: VDOT post-award costs to manage the project and provide oversight of the project are estimated to be approx. 6% of the Design-Builder's cost. These costs include overall project management, contract administration, and construction oversight.

If you have been following contract awards for a good time, you know that they can vary widely from the engineering estimate.

Depending on current industry economical conditions, a (for example) $100 million project could get several bids in the 70s, or could get a couple bids around 100, or could get bids in the 110s, or maybe only one bid around 120 (which the DOT rejects).

It all depends on what contractors are willing to build it for.

These projects were stated as a $750 million project when this was initiated about 2020.

There would have been little if any significant changes, and very little new right-of-way is needed. Like I said, the project is add one lane and full shoulder each way in the median. No interchange upgrades.

You can read the terms, but you don't seem to understand them fully. You aren't reading the rest of the document as carefully as you should, either. Please review again the contractor's responsibilities again.

ROW acquisition is a distinct phase of a project, whether design-build or not.  I'd love to see how the funding is actually programmed for the project, since the financial plan is only a description.

In any matter, given how the contractor's duties are described, mostly as expected, once again the comparisons you're making are not totally accurate.  It could be that there were some true savings, but without the actual estimate at the time of Final RFP, one cannot be sure.

Dealing with a decent-sized design-build project mysef right now and the initial financial plan is now quite a bit removed from reality and it hasn't even hit draft RFP yet...

[Beltway]

ROW acquisition is a distinct phase of a project, whether design-build or not.  I'd love to see how the funding is actually programmed for the project, since the financial plan is only a description.
In any matter, given how the contractor's duties are described, mostly as expected, once again the comparisons you're making are not totally accurate.  It could be that there were some true savings, but without the actual estimate at the time of Final RFP, one cannot be sure.

You are way overanalyzing this.

Here is the estimate on the Initial Financial Plan.
First entry is Segment A, second is Segment B, and the third and fourth are Segment C.


As can be seen, there is very little new R/W needed. There is less than a year between this finance plan and the award of Segment A. I will see if there is a Final RFP estimate online, but given the aforementioned nature of construction there would be very little if any design changes.

I am not interested in getting down into minutia on this. The project engineers will handle all the details.

Bottom line is that the bids came in much lower, and the average cost per mile is $20.9 million, which is good news in my book.

Better than the original $26.8 million per mile average.

[Rothman]

I will see if there is a Final RFP estimate online,

Look forward to it.

[Rothman]

Well, I did the least searching I can do.  You can see VDOT's comparison and how it differs from Beltway's in pages like this:

https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/hampton-roads-district/i-64-gap-segment-c-widening/

You can see VDOT using different cost estimates than Beltway's at the bottom of the page in the cost tab.  So sure, savings, but not to the degree Beltway showed in his spreadsheet.

I'd go as far that I don't fully trust these numbers, either, given that DOTs strive to put their best public foot forward.

(public opinion emphasized)

[Beltway]

Well, I did the least searching I can do.  You can see VDOT's comparison and how it differs from Beltway's in pages like this:
https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/hampton-roads-district/i-64-gap-segment-c-widening/
You can see VDOT using different cost estimates than Beltway's at the bottom of the page in the cost tab.  So sure, savings, but not to the degree Beltway showed in his spreadsheet.
I'd go as far that I don't fully trust these numbers, either, given that DOTs strive to put their best public foot forward.

"The $174 million design-build contract was awarded on April 16, 2024, to Allan Myers, in a joint-venture with Wagman" comes from that webpage.

Same figure here within one digit --
Allan Myers' latest project to kick off in the region is the I-64 Gap Segment C Widening Project. This $173 million design-build job got under way in spring 2024 as a joint venture with Wagman Heavy Civil.
https://www.allanmyers.com/allan-myers-plays-major-role-in-relieving-congestion-on-i-64-in-virginia/

As far as -- "Estimated cost of the project: $208 million" on the VDOT webpage, that matches the Construction estimate on the Initial Financial Plan.

Apparently did not include PE and RW, and if you add them you get the $231.2 million.

Those VDOT project webpages are maintained by communications specialists, not engineers. So yep they can have errors or inconsistent figures.

The original estimates are on an official Initial Finance Plan, so they can be taken as what the agency officially wanted to release to the public.

The I-64 Gap Segment A --
Work on this segment of the freeway is slated to finish in July 2027 at a cost of $210 million, far below VDOT's original estimate of $277.8 million.
https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/six-lane-i-64-superhighway-in-va-to-be-completed-between-richmond-hampton-roads/62990

I get the award amounts from what I see as the most accurate sources. I have a high degree of confidence in the numbers that I have listed, and they are fine for informal discussion purposes.

[Rothman]

Well, I did the least searching I can do.  You can see VDOT's comparison and how it differs from Beltway's in pages like this:
https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/hampton-roads-district/i-64-gap-segment-c-widening/
You can see VDOT using different cost estimates than Beltway's at the bottom of the page in the cost tab.  So sure, savings, but not to the degree Beltway showed in his spreadsheet.
I'd go as far that I don't fully trust these numbers, either, given that DOTs strive to put their best public foot forward.

"The $174 million design-build contract was awarded on April 16, 2024, to Allan Myers, in a joint-venture with Wagman" comes from that webpage.

Same figure here within one digit --
Allan Myers' latest project to kick off in the region is the I-64 Gap Segment C Widening Project. This $173 million design-build job got under way in spring 2024 as a joint venture with Wagman Heavy Civil.
https://www.allanmyers.com/allan-myers-plays-major-role-in-relieving-congestion-on-i-64-in-virginia/

As far as -- "Estimated cost of the project: $208 million" on the VDOT webpage, that matches the Construction estimate on the Initial Financial Plan.

Apparently did not include PE and RW, and if you add them you get the $231.2 million.

Those VDOT project webpages are maintained by communications specialists, not engineers. So yep they can have errors or inconsistent figures.

The original estimates are on an official Initial Finance Plan, so they can be taken as what the agency officially wanted to release to the public.

The I-64 Gap Segment A --
Work on this segment of the freeway is slated to finish in July 2027 at a cost of $210 million, far below VDOT's original estimate of $277.8 million.
https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/six-lane-i-64-superhighway-in-va-to-be-completed-between-richmond-hampton-roads/62990

I get the award amounts from what I see as the most accurate sources. I have a high degree of confidence in the numbers that I have listed, and they are fine for informal discussion purposes.

And you're still insisting on comparing total cost to a construction award, which is inappropriate.  Design-build contracts do not include preliminary engineering.

Again, VDOT's numbers on their own webpage are more appropriate, since they know how design-build projects are phased, just like they're described in the initial finance plan and then they use apples-to-apples on their website, or at least something closer to it than your spreadsheet.  So, they don't exaggerate the savings like you're doing by tens of millions of dollars.

But, keep on Beltwaying, Beltway. ;D

[Beltway]

And you're still insisting on comparing total cost to a construction award, which is inappropriate.  Design-build contracts do not include preliminary engineering.

What VDOT calls PE on the Six Year Program includes design from location studies to preliminary design to final design.

The contractor per the Inititial Finance Plan will perform final design which is 70% of the design life cycle.

Again, VDOT's numbers on their own webpage are more appropriate, since they know how design-build projects are phased, just like they're described in the initial finance plan and then they use apples-to-apples on their website, or at least something closer to it than your spreadsheet.  So, they don't exaggerate the savings like you're doing by tens of millions of dollars.

$753 million estimate on the Initial Finance Plan, and $587 million in design-build awards.

It is what it is.

But, keep on Beltwaying, Beltway. ;D

You have replied to my original post 7 times and I have replied to each.

I see this for what it is and this discussion over not very important matters has gone on long enough.

[Rothman]

And you're still insisting on comparing total cost to a construction award, which is inappropriate.  Design-build contracts do not include preliminary engineering.

What VDOT calls PE on the Six Year Program includes design from location studies to preliminary design to final design.

The contractor per the Inititial Finance Plan will perform final design which is 70% of the design life cycle.

Again, VDOT's numbers on their own webpage are more appropriate, since they know how design-build projects are phased, just like they're described in the initial finance plan and then they use apples-to-apples on their website, or at least something closer to it than your spreadsheet.  So, they don't exaggerate the savings like you're doing by tens of millions of dollars.

$753 million estimate on the Initial Finance Plan, and $587 million in design-build awards.

It is what it is.

But, keep on Beltwaying, Beltway. ;D

You have replied to my original post 7 times and I have replied to each.

I see this for what it is and this discussion over not very important matters has gone on long enough.

You may have a misunderstanding of the project development process, even by VDOT's own schedules, which follow every other typical schedule anywhere:  Scoping, PD, ROW, DD, Construction.  Simple example below:

https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/media/vdotvirginiagov/doing-business/technical-guidance-and-support/location-and-design/project-managment/project-development-schedule-templates/T1_Road_NO_ROW_PE_UT_CN_acc09062024.pdf

Or even:

https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/media/vdotvirginiagov/doing-business/technical-guidance-and-support/location-and-design/project-managment/project-development-schedule-templates/T1_Road_BR_PE_UT_RW_CN.pdf

PE is simply scoping through design approval...In any matter, its cost should not be including in comparisons to awards of construction contracts since the awards of such do not include PE...there's no need for a construction contractor to pay for engineering already done...

As always, Beltway, you are free to be inaccurate or even incorrect.