Do we need inside shoulders on freeways?

[1995hoo]

The inner shoulder comes in very handy for emergency vehicles on I-12 in BR during evening rush hour.  So benefit > costs.

Why couldn't they use the outside shoulder?

Because most drivers are idiots and will panic in case of a mechanical problem and stop at the closest available spot rather than limp a bit further to find a safer spot to stop.  Especially if there's any decent amount of traffic.  If they're in a left lane, they'll use the left shoulder rather than try and merge their way over to the right shoulder where it's wider.  They call it the "breakdown lane" for a reason.

You can find various videos on YouTube (Stanley Roberts has posted a good number from his "ride-alongs" with San Francisco area police) in which a cop goes to stop a driver, the driver panics and wants to pull to the left shoulder, and the cop has to go on the PA telling the driver either to pull to the right shoulder instead or (preferably) to exit the highway altogether to a safer location. People are conditioned to the idea of "stop immediately."

[kernals12]

Maybe I should clarify: I'm not saying there would be no space between the edge of the left lane and the Jersey Barrier, but I'm imagining it would be only 3-4 feet wide instead of 10.

[kphoger]

Maybe I should clarify: I'm not saying there would be no space between the edge of the left lane and the Jersey Barrier, but I'm imagining it would be only 3-4 feet wide instead of 10.

So, less than 12 inches different from current Interstate requirements?

[WillWeaverRVA]

Seeing as my wife nearly got killed in a car accident on a freeway a few years ago and probably would have if not for an inside shoulder, I say yes we fucking need inside shoulders on freeways.

[DriverDave]

And inner shoulders should be wider, not narrower, as it is more dangerous to be right next to the left lane than the right. But let's say someone's car breaks down in slow traffic, and they don't have the momentum to get over to the right, there should always be a left shoulder.

[jeffandnicole]

The inner shoulder comes in very handy for emergency vehicles on I-12 in BR during evening rush hour.  So benefit > costs.

Why couldn't they use the outside shoulder?

Because most drivers are idiots and will panic in case of a mechanical problem and stop at the closest available spot rather than limp a bit further to find a safer spot to stop.  Especially if there's any decent amount of traffic.  If they're in a left lane, they'll use the left shoulder rather than try and merge their way over to the right shoulder where it's wider.  They call it the "breakdown lane" for a reason.

You can find various videos on YouTube (Stanley Roberts has posted a good number from his "ride-alongs" with San Francisco area police) in which a cop goes to stop a driver, the driver panics and wants to pull to the left shoulder, and the cop has to go on the PA telling the driver either to pull to the right shoulder instead or (preferably) to exit the highway altogether to a safer location. People are conditioned to the idea of "stop immediately."

Especially people that aren't used to getting pulled over, they do panic and freeze. It's a natural reaction by most people.

We watch OP Live where they pull people over, and there was one video where someone pulled ahead to a side street and stopped and the cop yelled at them, saying they were to pull over the moment the officers lights were turned on. So it doesn't help that there's disagreements among officers themselves when and where to pull over.

And going back to triples comment, there's some people out there that will stop right in the travel lane when their car is disabled claiming they don't want to damage it further by turning the wheel. I'm sure in their mind, if they're having car trouble, they might as well cause everyone to have a bad day and jam up the entire highway. I would love to know if cops actually gave tickets for that.

[hbelkins]

The inner shoulder comes in very handy for emergency vehicles on I-12 in BR during evening rush hour.  So benefit > costs.

Why couldn't they use the outside shoulder?

Because most drivers are idiots and will panic in case of a mechanical problem and stop at the closest available spot rather than limp a bit further to find a safer spot to stop.  Especially if there's any decent amount of traffic.  If they're in a left lane, they'll use the left shoulder rather than try and merge their way over to the right shoulder where it's wider.  They call it the "breakdown lane" for a reason.

You can find various videos on YouTube (Stanley Roberts has posted a good number from his "ride-alongs" with San Francisco area police) in which a cop goes to stop a driver, the driver panics and wants to pull to the left shoulder, and the cop has to go on the PA telling the driver either to pull to the right shoulder instead or (preferably) to exit the highway altogether to a safer location. People are conditioned to the idea of "stop immediately."

Especially people that aren't used to getting pulled over, they do panic and freeze. It's a natural reaction by most people.

We watch OP Live where they pull people over, and there was one video where someone pulled ahead to a side street and stopped and the cop yelled at them, saying they were to pull over the moment the officers lights were turned on. So it doesn't help that there's disagreements among officers themselves when and where to pull over.

And going back to triples comment, there's some people out there that will stop right in the travel lane when their car is disabled claiming they don't want to damage it further by turning the wheel. I'm sure in their mind, if they're having car trouble, they might as well cause everyone to have a bad day and jam up the entire highway. I would love to know if cops actually gave tickets for that.

This brings up something I've always wondered about. Many states have passed "quick clearance" laws that require drivers to move disabled vehicles -- if the vehicle can be safely moved -- to the shoulder. Yet insurance companies advise drivers not to move their vehicles from the site of the accident until the police come to draw the diagram up for the accident report.

[webny99]

There are very few scenarios where a disabled vehicle can make it to the inside shoulder but can't get over to the outside. And as cars become more reliable and electronic safety aids reduce rear-end collisions, the need for breakdown lanes in general is falling. So perhaps it's time to consider getting rid of inside shoulders.

Have you ever driven considerable distance in the inside lane of the PA Turnpike? It's very tedious, and will make you rethink the value of wider shoulders. The presence of shoulders improves the overall driving experience, not just the safety of the roadway.

Now I'm wondering if the inside shoulders on US freeways is a contributing factor in our lack of lane discipline here.

Interesting thought. It definitely seems possible that high standards of road quality reach a point of diminishing returns where the benefits to safety are outweighed or even counteracted by increased driver laziness.

[RobbieL2415]

We need to fine people who remain stationary in the extreme left lane when they reasonably could have moved it to the shoulder.

[jeffandnicole]

The inner shoulder comes in very handy for emergency vehicles on I-12 in BR during evening rush hour.  So benefit > costs.

Why couldn't they use the outside shoulder?

Because most drivers are idiots and will panic in case of a mechanical problem and stop at the closest available spot rather than limp a bit further to find a safer spot to stop.  Especially if there's any decent amount of traffic.  If they're in a left lane, they'll use the left shoulder rather than try and merge their way over to the right shoulder where it's wider.  They call it the "breakdown lane" for a reason.

You can find various videos on YouTube (Stanley Roberts has posted a good number from his "ride-alongs" with San Francisco area police) in which a cop goes to stop a driver, the driver panics and wants to pull to the left shoulder, and the cop has to go on the PA telling the driver either to pull to the right shoulder instead or (preferably) to exit the highway altogether to a safer location. People are conditioned to the idea of "stop immediately."

Especially people that aren't used to getting pulled over, they do panic and freeze. It's a natural reaction by most people.

We watch OP Live where they pull people over, and there was one video where someone pulled ahead to a side street and stopped and the cop yelled at them, saying they were to pull over the moment the officers lights were turned on. So it doesn't help that there's disagreements among officers themselves when and where to pull over.

And going back to triples comment, there's some people out there that will stop right in the travel lane when their car is disabled claiming they don't want to damage it further by turning the wheel. I'm sure in their mind, if they're having car trouble, they might as well cause everyone to have a bad day and jam up the entire highway. I would love to know if cops actually gave tickets for that.

This brings up something I've always wondered about. Many states have passed "quick clearance" laws that require drivers to move disabled vehicles -- if the vehicle can be safely moved -- to the shoulder. Yet insurance companies advise drivers not to move their vehicles from the site of the accident until the police come to draw the diagram up for the accident report.

I'm not sure if some of these states have passed laws, or if they're just advisory signage on the roadway. Either way there's some areas that won't even send a officer out for some accidents. If it was a accident in an intersection where cars are at unusual angles and positions its good not to move them. If these accidents are on highways where one car bumped into or sideswiped another car, it's pretty obvious what happened by looking at yhe damage and those cars can be moved off the road without much of an issue.

[kphoger]

there's some areas that won't even send a officer out for some accidents

The last accident I was in was during heavy Covid-19 restrictions.  I called the police, they asked if anyone was injured, I said no, and they told me officers were only being dispatched for injury accidents.  They instructed me to fill out an accident report ourselves online.  So the other driver and I went into my house (the accident was right in front of the driveway) and filled out an accident report on my home computer.

[1995hoo]

I once witnessed an accident and a responding cop told the drivers to move their cars out of the road. One of them refused to do so, claiming he was told not to move the car following an accident. That didn't sit too well with the cop for rather obvious reasons. (I recall the driver was of some sort of East Asian ethnicity and had a very strong accent, so who knows what the standard might be in his home country.)

That rather absurd example aside, it certainly used to be the norm that you were not supposed to move the vehicles after an accident until a cop told you to do so. I seem to recall that's what we were taught in driver's ed in the late 1980s. As noted above, that standard has changed in many places as states and localities realized that minor fender-benders were causing major unwarranted traffic tieups when people didn't move their cars. But I wonder how many people who learned the old rule are unaware of the newer standard. Wouldn't surprise me at all–I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who think that everything they learned about driving in the 1960s still applies today.

[SectorZ]

I once witnessed an accident and a responding cop told the drivers to move their cars out of the road. One of them refused to do so, claiming he was told not to move the car following an accident. That didn't sit too well with the cop for rather obvious reasons. (I recall the driver was of some sort of East Asian ethnicity and had a very strong accent, so who knows what the standard might be in his home country.)

That rather absurd example aside, it certainly used to be the norm that you were not supposed to move the vehicles after an accident until a cop told you to do so. I seem to recall that's what we were taught in driver's ed in the late 1980s. As noted above, that standard has changed in many places as states and localities realized that minor fender-benders were causing major unwarranted traffic tieups when people didn't move their cars. But I wonder how many people who learned the old rule are unaware of the newer standard. Wouldn't surprise me at all–I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who think that everything they learned about driving in the 1960s still applies today.

Having worked as an auto insurance adjuster, the whole moving cars things before the cops get there enables both parties with the ability to lie a lot more effectively about what happened. Even had the "I kicked the debris from the accident to the shoulder before the cops got there" routine more than once, which made it even harder for any basic evidence to be preserved. It sucks when you're on the wrong end of it, especially if you don't have collision coverage and the person that hits you lies and has their lie become more more plausible.

Granted in certain states I handled (chiefly the one I live in), the amount of effort put in by police to document what happened can be very close to none at all in many cases. Like down to "vehicle 1 hit vehicle 2" levels of description. Always loved that Connecticut is so damn stringent about police reports and documentation from police in a car accident. They're a refreshing difference from the twelve other states I handled.

[kphoger]

Having worked as an auto insurance adjuster, ...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing an auto insurance adjuster loves more that someone who simply tells the truth about what happened.

The last accident I was in was during heavy Covid-19 restrictions.  I called the police, they asked if anyone was injured, I said no, and they told me officers were only being dispatched for injury accidents.  They instructed me to fill out an accident report ourselves online.  So the other driver and I went into my house (the accident was right in front of the driveway) and filled out an accident report on my home computer.

It sucks when you're on the wrong end of it, especially if you don't have collision coverage and the person that hits you lies and has their lie become more more plausible.

I had the advantage of sitting at my own computer when filling out the police report.  I'd type a statement and, read it to her, and ask her:  Does that sound about right to you?  She never disagreed with anything I put down on the report, so everything was my own wording.

[MikieTimT]

Yes, especially with those with more than 2X2 lanes.  Loss of power can happen while in the fast lane, and having multiple lanes to cross to get to a shoulder is quite burdensome in locales with the traffic counts that justify those extra lanes.  They are used by emergency vehicles regularly in high-traffic scenarios, and sometimes by those who make the content possible on all of the Arkansas police activity YouTube videos along with the right shoulder, usually just a few minutes before ASP maneuvers to PIT/TVI them into the Jersey barrier or the treeline.

[andrepoiy]

I think it really depends on the width of the freeway.

Is it more than 4 lanes wide? In that case, trying to move over to the right lane if you're having problems in the left may cause more trouble.

[DriverDave]

That's what I said. If you are having car trouble you may not be able to safely get over all those lanes. Such as accelerating to overtake..etc. Or traffic could be going 20 mph at the time and lack the momentum to.

[hbelkins]

I'm not sure if some of these states have passed laws, or if they're just advisory signage on the roadway. Either way there's some areas that won't even send a officer out for some accidents. If it was a accident in an intersection where cars are at unusual angles and positions its good not to move them. If these accidents are on highways where one car bumped into or sideswiped another car, it's pretty obvious what happened by looking at yhe damage and those cars can be moved off the road without much of an issue.

Kentucky passed such a law within the last 19 years (since I started this job) and the signs are black-on-white regulatory.

[kernals12]

Today, I saw a disabled car on the left side of the Mass Pike shortly before the Ted Williams tunnel. They have a small 4 foot shoulder there and that was enough that most of the car fit in with only the right wheels over the edge. Traffic was light enough that drivers, including myself, could just move over, but still, that lane would be usable in a heavy traffic situation, albeit drivers would need to slow down.

[1995hoo]

I would have thought you would be faulting the driver for stopping on the left, given your original post in this thread in which you said we don't need left shoulders because drivers can normally make it over to the right.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Today, I saw a disabled car on the left side of the Mass Pike shortly before the Ted Williams tunnel. They have a small 4 foot shoulder there and that was enough that most of the car fit in with only the right wheels over the edge. Traffic was light enough that drivers, including myself, could just move over, but still, that lane would be usable in a heavy traffic situation, albeit drivers would need to slow down.

A 1987 study looked at 10 cases from California where inside shoulders were removed to make space for extra lanes (generally in combination with narrowing the existing lanes from 12 feet to 11) and found no increases in accident rates and sometimes a *decrease* due to impact of reduced congestion.

And having no inside shoulders is the norm in most of the world.

There are very few scenarios where a disabled vehicle can make it to the inside shoulder but can't get over to the outside. And as cars become more reliable and electronic safety aids reduce rear-end collisions, the need for breakdown lanes in general is falling. So perhaps it's time to consider getting rid of inside shoulders.

So you changed your pick?

[Brandon]

A good shoulder is worth far more than an extra lane to squeeze more traffic. Collisions blocking actual lanes are a huge issue.

I seem to recall that being a common problem on I-5 north of Seattle. 

It's also a big problem on I-55 in Will County, Illinois as there is a substandard left shoulder (narrower than usual) due to the age of the freeway and the need (very big need) to add a third lane between Weber Road (mp 263) and I-80 (mp 250).

[Brandon]

Maybe I should clarify: I'm not saying there would be no space between the edge of the left lane and the Jersey Barrier, but I'm imagining it would be only 3-4 feet wide instead of 10.

Then you get this such as on I-55 in Will County: https://goo.gl/maps/5bLAMfEEGiGvGuCy7
Not quite Pennsylvania narrow, but not enough room for a vehicle.