Why no 4 or 5 level stack interchanges in the Northeast?

[roadman65]

Albany has one that is close at I-90 and US 9.

Elizabeth, NJ has one at 3 levels at US 1 & 9 and NJ 81.

Newark, NJ has one on I-78 at Exit 58A.

You have to remember that the expressways and freeways in some areas were built in the 30's and 40's when a clloverleaf did indeed work well.  Now to change it would require displacing businesses as NJ is so built up with so much at almost the curb of the highways now.

That is my guess to why it never got to be.  Heck SPUIS are not even that common in the Northeast either, although my home state did install one on NJ 33 in East Windsor as part of the 6-9 widening of the NJ Turnpike project.  A lot of other interchange designs could have used them and could be considered for it for those that are planned for the future.  The one at US 9 at Ernston Road at the Sayreville and Old Bridge Border which has a folded diamond could have had that done as it would have required less land to obtain as folded diamonds do use more acres than an SPUI as most of the interchange is underneath the free flowing road.

[jwolfer]

Albany has one that is close at I-90 and US 9.

Elizabeth, NJ has one at 3 levels at US 1 & 9 and NJ 81.

Newark, NJ has one on I-78 at Exit 58A.

You have to remember that the expressways and freeways in some areas were built in the 30's and 40's when a clloverleaf did indeed work well.  Now to change it would require displacing businesses as NJ is so built up with so much at almost the curb of the highways now.

That is my guess to why it never got to be.  Heck SPUIS are not even that common in the Northeast either, although my home state did install one on NJ 33 in East Windsor as part of the 6-9 widening of the NJ Turnpike project.  A lot of other interchange designs could have used them and could be considered for it for those that are planned for the future.  The one at US 9 at Ernston Road at the Sayreville and Old Bridge Border which has a folded diamond could have had that done as it would have required less land to obtain as folded diamonds do use more acres than an SPUI as most of the interchange is underneath the free flowing road.

Not many SPUI in New Jersey because of the love affair with jughandles.  They use them where( IMHO as a non engineer) they make no sense

[cl94]

I mentioned the Albany stacks pretty early on. Both are traditional Maltese cross 4-levels. I-90 at US 9 is pretty spread out, with I-90 running in a deep ravine and road cut (this being the reaso8n for the design). The merge onto SB US 9 is staggered because of the long bridge carrying US 9 over the ravine and Amtrak tracks. I-90 at I-787, less than a mile to the east, is much more compact, having to fit between the Hudson river and several industries. I-90's high-level Patroon Island Bridge over the Hudson is immediately to the east of the interchange. The presence of the high-level bridge and the small amount of space not directly adjacent to the mainlines forced the stack interchange.

As far as jughandles, while annoying, the idea is to reduce the number of signal phases. This allows 2-3+ through lanes on the main route on a tight ROW. Businesses are often located inside the jughandles at this point and, as previously mentioned, modifying anything in Jersey would likely have a huge impact on businesses.

SPUIs are becoming more common in the northeast, at least in New York. As of now, we have 5, all being in very logical locations. In the rare case where an interchange is rebuilt in this state, a SPUI or DDI is typically considered nowadays.

[empirestate]

Topography issues, older and more-established development, and less open space play factors as well.

This is the answer so far that has been the most on-point in my opinion...New England's infrastructure is rooted in much older development patterns.  Simply put, an area laid out based on 1787 standards is going to be less automobile-conscious than an area laid out in 1947.  This leads the Northeast to be an unfriendly landscape for tall stack interchanges due to a lack of available ROW.  In order to build large grandiose interchanges, you need lots of ROW.  Regulations on uphill and downhill grades mean that a certain amount of roadway length is required to achieve the height you need to build any flyover ramp over another traffic way.  With limited space, it's hard to build any interchange that doesn't have loop ramps and short weaving sections.  In a more general sense, building the Interstates largely took off in the '60s, and more urbanized development had occurred on the East Coast compared to most anywhere.  Texas has space.  New England doesn't.

I understand what you are stating, but we have examples in Texas where stacks were built on land with limited ROW, example the 410/280 interchange where before there were NOT an interchange, not even a cloverleaf (long story, and it involved NIMBYs when originally built).

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.5201989,-98.4828026,3a,75y,100.65h,83.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjWsSjGNlS8Jr3Jm9LbrhRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

It involved long, very long onramps to gain the necessary elevation to work. However, as some posts here have stated, I do not think Northeasterners would stand for such a sight near their homes, no matter how ethically pleasing one tries to make a stack look.

There is no wrong or right viewpoint, I just find it interesting the difference in cultures.

Another factor that probably plays into it is the relative dominance of local governments in New England and the Northeast. In New England, the town is the basic unit of government and the affairs of the populace are centered largely around this, with the state taking a more limited role and the county very little (and often none whatsoever) in general-purpose government. In the northern Mid-Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA), you still have comparatively powerful local governments with the addition of relatively strong counties; in short, there are more layers of government with more home-rule power than in places like Texas.

That said, another 4-level stack that I think would have existed is at I-590 and I-390, had the Genesee Expressway not been cancelled.

[paulthemapguy]

^ The relative prominence of local governments

So THAT'S why the Northeast is a NIMBY's paradise.

We've been spendin' most our lives livin' in a NIMBY's paradise
Killin' plans when they arise, livin' in a NIMBY's paradise
We got dismal travel times, livin' in a NIMBY's paradise
Everybody hates to drive, livin' in a NIMBY's paradise.

[cl94]

Topography issues, older and more-established development, and less open space play factors as well.

This is the answer so far that has been the most on-point in my opinion...New England's infrastructure is rooted in much older development patterns.  Simply put, an area laid out based on 1787 standards is going to be less automobile-conscious than an area laid out in 1947.  This leads the Northeast to be an unfriendly landscape for tall stack interchanges due to a lack of available ROW.  In order to build large grandiose interchanges, you need lots of ROW.  Regulations on uphill and downhill grades mean that a certain amount of roadway length is required to achieve the height you need to build any flyover ramp over another traffic way.  With limited space, it's hard to build any interchange that doesn't have loop ramps and short weaving sections.  In a more general sense, building the Interstates largely took off in the '60s, and more urbanized development had occurred on the East Coast compared to most anywhere.  Texas has space.  New England doesn't.

I understand what you are stating, but we have examples in Texas where stacks were built on land with limited ROW, example the 410/280 interchange where before there were NOT an interchange, not even a cloverleaf (long story, and it involved NIMBYs when originally built).

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.5201989,-98.4828026,3a,75y,100.65h,83.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjWsSjGNlS8Jr3Jm9LbrhRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

It involved long, very long onramps to gain the necessary elevation to work. However, as some posts here have stated, I do not think Northeasterners would stand for such a sight near their homes, no matter how ethically pleasing one tries to make a stack look.

There is no wrong or right viewpoint, I just find it interesting the difference in cultures.

Another factor that probably plays into it is the relative dominance of local governments in New England and the Northeast. In New England, the town is the basic unit of government and the affairs of the populace are centered largely around this, with the state taking a more limited role and the county very little (and often none whatsoever) in general-purpose government. In the northern Mid-Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA), you still have comparatively powerful local governments with the addition of relatively strong counties; in short, there are more layers of government with more home-rule power than in places like Texas.

That said, another 4-level stack that I think would have existed is at I-590 and I-390, had the Genesee Expressway not been cancelled.

I agree with all of your points. Even in New York, the prominence of the town is really dependent on where in the state you are. In Western New York, counties are relatively powerful, but towns in eastern parts of New York are very similar to their New England counterparts. In many counties out here, services are limited to not much more than police and highway maintenance (with relatively few county highways in relation to total road mileage). The county I grew up in (Warren County) does little more than provide a countywide police force (that all but one municipality uses) and maintenance of the most major roads that aren't state-maintained. Towns provide all services. Nassau County, from what my father tells me, is pretty similar, with a countywide police force and towns providing all the services. At the other extreme, Erie County is quite powerful, maintaining virtually every road in rural areas, providing a countywide water and sewer system, and many more services.

[empirestate]

^ The relative prominence of local governments

So THAT'S why the Northeast is a NIMBY's paradise.

Well, if by that you mean that the people have an opportunity to participate directly in their local affairs (the town meeting form of government is often cited as the most pure form of direct democracy in use today), then I suppose so.

I try not to use terms and buzzwords like "NIMBY" because it tends to obscure the intent of my meaning. (Same reason I try to avoid mentioning politicians' names; I find myself agreeing with a lot more people if we don't know who each other thinks the enemy is.)

[Gnutella]

To expand on Gnutella's comments on PA, the I-81/US 22/322 interchange north of Harrisburg is almost a four level stack (if a single flyover ramp counts as a level).

Also, something else I have not seen mentioned regarding design in the northeast vs places like Texas: Frontage roads. Not very prominent around these parts, but they're always incorporated in to interchanges in TX.

Texas is one of the only places I've seen that has frontage roads everywhere.

And as far as frontage roads in the northeast, downstate New York. Several of the expressways and parkways have them. One in Buffalo has them as well.

Missouri seems to have a lot of frontage roads as well.

[TXtoNJ]

I figured it's just a design norm that stretches all the way back to the early parkways. They tend to like hiding their expressways in the Northeast, using more environmentally-integrative design. Stacks impose their will on the environment, so they shy away from them up there.

[cpzilliacus]

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.79102,-77.1760375,878m/data=!3m1!1e3

If you are referring to this, yes I am familiar with it. I have family that leave near this intersection and saw it rebuilt over the years. It was this intersection that got me wandering why there were not more stacks (though it a low level affair) like this one in the northeast. The posts have been educational to the reason why , some NIMBY, and ROW issues.

Yes, that would be the Springfield Interchange. 

Here are the others I mentioned earlier.

I-95/I-495 (Capital Beltway) and U.S. 50/"secret" I-595, New Carrollton, Md. (not a stack, more of a "turbine" interchange, though some of the ramps are reasonably tall)

Md. 200 (ICC toll road) and U.S. 29, Silver Spring, Md. (three-level stack)

I-70 and I-695 (Baltimore Beltway), Woodlawn, Md. (classic four-level stack)

I-95 (JFK Highway) and I-695 Rossville or Overlea, Md.  (formerly a "braided" interchange, now everything has been converted to a modern four-level stack, except that the I-695 roadway is still in the process of being un-braided).

[roadman65]

Speaking of SPUIs in NY, the Big Apple has one on Northern Blivd. at the BQE.  That one, I have to say, is a smart move as no major construction was needed there.  Basically new signal heads and the aim for left turns just needed to be altered.

As far as good ole NJ goes, it took almost three decades to reconfigure the Ford Avenue intersection as well as make improvements as lane widenings from the US 9 split to I-287.  That needed attention back in the mid 70's and finally got done this in the late 2000s.  Even so, I think that grade separations would have been better at Ford Avenue than the double jughandles and long blocks.  Yes they do cut down on the signal phases as that signal had three originally and now its down to two.  Yes making a u turn requires a reverse jughandle  on US 1 NB and Ford Avenue NB to get back the other way.  Going SB on US 1 it takes a long drive around as there is no jughandles. You take a ramp past Ford Avenue over to the next block and double back to Ford Avenue and cross US 1 as no left turns are allowed there and one block over to Lafayette Avenue then take a right onto it, before going to the next cross street over and turn right again into a RIRO with NB US 1.  However, shorter wait times and much more efficiency at that intersection.

Also at Grand Avenue further down the severing of Lafayette Avenue there and eliminating the small circle there, made that intersection's operational efficiency much better, and at Parsonage Road where a normal jughandle was replaced with a reverse jughandle which now allows 2 phases over 3 as well, because the Parsonage Road to NB US 1 now does not turn left but also goes around the jughandle as well so it and turning traffic from US 1 NB to Parsonage cross the highway simultaneously.

Maybe some more SPUIs may come to the Garden State someday like at NJ 35 and NJ 36 in Eatontown or at US 1 & 9 and NJ 439 in Elizabeth as those intersections could use them badly.

[jeffandnicole]

Maybe some more SPUIs may come to the Garden State someday like at NJ 35 and NJ 36 in Eatontown...

Being they reconstructed the intersection just 2 years ago, you're gonna be waiting a half century to see that reconstructed again!