STOP painted on pavement but no sign

[cpzilliacus]

It is common in many shopping centers and other private properties that STOP is painted on the pavement, but there is no octagon to be found.

The STOP letters are frequently painted on pavement at  what seem to be arbitrary locations. 

What is your opinion of this practice?   

Are they legally enforceable? 

There appears to be nothing written in the MUTCD that covers this.

IMO it should be forbidden.

[DaBigE]

IIRC, at least in Wisconsin, it is only enforceable when it is signed. At least that is the case with handicapped parking spaces. There's a nearby Home Depot that I frequent which only has 'STOP' painted on the pavement for the ped xings to the front doors, but no signs. Unless someone is crossing or about to cross, I won't stop (I treat it as a yield condition, as is what I do at the end of a parking lot aisle). Paint but no sign is a waste of paint IMO, especially in the states which see significant snow.

[Brian556]

At the Target I work at, there is one intersection like this. The others have both signs and markings.

At the Lowe's across the street, They have only markings. also, they have one STOP marking at a location that completely does not make sense. It Requires the road that passes in front of the store (the one within the lot) to stop for no reason at the entrance to the loading area. That's right, the entrance. Nobody coming out of it. Not only that, only one direction has the STOP marking.

I really wish city code enforcement would crack down on this.

[jeffandnicole]

I've never seen police enforce stop signs in a parking lot anyway.

If a parking lot has so much snow that 'STOP' is a waste of paint, then why bother painting lines for parking spots or fire lanes?

[vtk]

It is common in many shopping centers and other private properties that STOP is painted on the pavement, but there is no octagon to be found.

The STOP letters are frequently painted on pavement at  what seem to be arbitrary locations. 

There appears to be nothing written in the MUTCD that covers this.

Actually I thought I read somewhere in MUTCD that this is sufficient for parking lots.  Why MUTCD even applies to private parking lots is puzzling to me; maybe McDonald's should take notice re lane markings in one-way vs two-way multilane parking lot aisles.

Really freakin' annoying though. Especially when I'm pretty sure the present location of the STOP was some smalltime contractor's mistake that stuck.

[Brian556]

I really think parking lot intersection traffic control needs to be taken much more seriously. There are many dangerous situations in parking lots due to lack of proper traffic control. There are some with uncontrolled intersections, and there is no way to tell that you need to do anything are far as stopping or yielding.

It's really ridiculous that businesses are allowed to be so carless and endanger people's safety like this.

You would think that they would take it more seriously, if for no other reason, to avoid a lawsuit.
They put up a WET FLOOR sign every time a speck of water gets on the floor, and are hyper -sensitive bout employee safety; but can't be bothered with stop signs.

[talllguy]

I do remember a podcast about police enforcibility of private signs.

The short and practical answer is that the police usually have the power to enforce traffic regulations on private property. - See more at: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-career/legal/traffic-signs-posted-private-property#sthash.EqvryRXe.dpuf

[DaBigE]

If a parking lot has so much snow that 'STOP' is a waste of paint, then why bother painting lines for parking spots or fire lanes?

Can't argue the logic with parking lines, but as with handicapped spaces, fire lanes must also be signed as well to be enforceable.

I do remember a podcast about police enforcibility of private signs.

The short and practical answer is that the police usually have the power to enforce traffic regulations on private property. - See more at: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-career/legal/traffic-signs-posted-private-property#sthash.EqvryRXe.dpuf

What I've heard from a few LEO friends is that they generally won't enforce private property regulations unless they are asked by the property owner. Although they will occasionally do handicapped enforcement stings.

[cpzilliacus]

I do remember a podcast about police enforcibility of private signs.

The short and practical answer is that the police usually have the power to enforce traffic regulations on private property. - See more at: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-career/legal/traffic-signs-posted-private-property#sthash.EqvryRXe.dpuf

I own a small townhome in Montgomery County, Md. in an HOA near the U.S. 29 and Md. 200 interchange, and we have gone out of our way to tell our local police (in writing) that we appreciate and encourage them to enforce Maryland's Transportation Article on our private streets.

So far, nobody has tried to use the private ownership of those streets as a reason to allow them to get away with violating state traffic laws.

[roadfro]

In answer to the OP question...

2009 MUTCD, Section 3B.20:

Standard:
14 Except at the ends of aisles in parking lots, the word STOP shall not be used on the pavement unless accompanied by a stop line (see Section 3B.16) and STOP sign (see Section 2B.05). At the ends of aisles in parking lots, the word STOP shall not be used on the pavement unless accompanied by a stop line.

So at the end of the aisles, no stop sign is needed. However, I think that on the main drive ways in parking lots, stop signs are helpful and should be required (where needed) in order to better regulate traffic flows.

I don't see too many places here in Nevada where stop signs are missing where they probably should exist. They are often used in the circulating areas of bigger parking lots yet omitted on the end of drive aisles, which is what I think works best.

[jeffandnicole]

If a parking lot has so much snow that 'STOP' is a waste of paint, then why bother painting lines for parking spots or fire lanes?

Can't argue the logic with parking lines, but as with handicapped spaces, fire lanes must also be signed as well to be enforceable.

The point is, if the word 'stop' is covered by snow making it unreadable, the parking stall lines, fire lines, and handicap lines are going to be covered by snow as well.

[jeffandnicole]

I'll gladly take a painted 'Stop' over no control whatsoever.  Here's one large parking lot that has no intersection control whatsoever throughout the entire parking lot.  Makes for quite a dangerous condition.  http://goo.gl/maps/ZExY3

[DaBigE]

I'll gladly take a painted 'Stop' over no control whatsoever.  Here's one large parking lot that has no intersection control whatsoever throughout the entire parking lot.  Makes for quite a dangerous condition.  http://goo.gl/maps/ZExY3

IMO, that's a situation where common sense should kick in. Unless you're in a main aisle, you should yield to other traffic in the parking lot.

[hbelkins]

I know of at least one intersection between state roads in my area where there is a stop bar and the word "STOP" affixed to the pavement because there is no place to erect a stop sign. A private parking lot for a store is at that location.

[cpzilliacus]

I know of at least one intersection between state roads in my area where there is a stop bar and the word "STOP" affixed to the pavement because there is no place to erect a stop sign. A private parking lot for a store is at that location.

What is the alternative then?  To use span wires and suspend a STOP sign above the intersection perhaps?

I know that Maryland SHA absolutely will not use the painted STOP on pavement on any of its roads (without a STOP sign, and even then it is unusual), and I don't think I have ever seen it on a street or road maintained by a Maryland county or municipality. 

Nor do I recall ever seeing it on a public street or road in Virginia (be it maintained by VDOT, a county or a municipality).

[Brandon]

It is common in many shopping centers and other private properties that STOP is painted on the pavement, but there is no octagon to be found.

The STOP letters are frequently painted on pavement at  what seem to be arbitrary locations. 

What is your opinion of this practice?   

Are they legally enforceable? 

There appears to be nothing written in the MUTCD that covers this.

IMO it should be forbidden.

I'd say it's unenforceable.  How can you even see the legend when it is covered by an inch of snow?  Or after a few years when the plow has run over it several hundred times?

It's something I've never seen around here.  Usually it's the sign with no painted legend.

[Brandon]

If a parking lot has so much snow that 'STOP' is a waste of paint, then why bother painting lines for parking spots or fire lanes?

Can't argue the logic with parking lines, but as with handicapped spaces, fire lanes must also be signed as well to be enforceable.

The point is, if the word 'stop' is covered by snow making it unreadable, the parking stall lines, fire lines, and handicap lines are going to be covered by snow as well.

Well, they still do paint the parking lines for the half the year the pavement is snow-free in the UP.  For the other half of the year, it makes for some very interesting parking.  Aisles don't always line up with the lines, and they sometimes bend and sway back and forth.

[Brian556]

In the parking lot of my workplace, there is a stop sign on the left side of the two way road because they failed to leave a place for it on the right. This is one of those newer shopping centers that has up-front parking spaces.

This is. of course, totally wrong. They should eliminate the parking spaces where the stop sign should be. You really don't see it very well on the left, because you are used to them being on the right.

[jeffandnicole]

I'll gladly take a painted 'Stop' over no control whatsoever.  Here's one large parking lot that has no intersection control whatsoever throughout the entire parking lot.  Makes for quite a dangerous condition.  http://goo.gl/maps/ZExY3

IMO, that's a situation where common sense should kick in. Unless you're in a main aisle, you should yield to other traffic in the parking lot.

You can't italicize SHOULD enough there.  It's amazing how people fly around that lot. And it's a business lot, not commercial, so it's the same people everyday that use it, and probably park in the same general area, following the same general path.

...For the other half of the year, it makes for some very interesting parking.  Aisles don't always line up with the lines, and they sometimes bend and sway back and forth.

The best drivers on the road sometimes can't handle a simple parking lot.  Again...these people probably have parked here time after time, but once the lines are invisible, suddenly they act as if a streetlight pole in the middle of the drive aisle is completely normal.

I'll park vehicles on a grassy field for an event every year, and even though we guide them into their spot, we'll see the driver looking at the car next to them and try to line it up themselves.  They'll going to be a foot or two ahead or behind the car next to you, and look at the person guiding as if they have no clue what they're doing.

If you want to park yourself, and be reasonably lined up to the person next to you, there's a knack to doing this.  Rather than looking at the front of the car, look at the side view mirror.  By lining up the side mirror to the side mirror of the car next to you, the front bumpers will be very close to a straight line, regardless of the car make.  Since the side mirror is just a few feet away, it's fairly easy to line it up very closely.

(BTW, this is very similiar to how pro and good weekly bowlers bowl.  Rather than looking at the pins 60 feet down the lane, they are looking at the arrows 15 feet down the lane.  Since those bowlers tend to have the same motions and curves, by hitting their mark 15 feet away, they have a very good idea where the ball will hit the pins 60 feet away.)

[PHLBOS]

Here's where such was done on an actual street: Burrill St. & Humphrey St. (MA 129) in Swampscott

[cpzilliacus]

Here's where such was done on an actual street: Burrill St. & Humphrey St. (MA 129) in Swampscott

Wonder why they did not install an octagon there?  Looks like there's room for one on the right.

[Brian556]

Here's where such was done on an actual street: Burrill St. & Humphrey St. (MA 129) in Swampscott

That is very dangerous and highly illegal if done intentionally. I'm wondering if there used to be a stop  sign there that was hit and not replaced, or if somebody stole the sign by pulling it out of the ground (more likely if this municipality uses u-channels, since those don't require concrete.

[roadman]

Here's where such was done on an actual street: Burrill St. & Humphrey St. (MA 129) in Swampscott

Wonder why they did not install an octagon there?  Looks like there's room for one on the right.

If you look closely at the grass to the right, it appears there used to be a sign post in the ground just prior to the stop line.

[PHLBOS]

Here's where such was done on an actual street: Burrill St. & Humphrey St. (MA 129) in Swampscott

Wonder why they did not install an octagon there?  Looks like there's room for one on the right.

If you look closely at the grass to the right, it appears there used to be a sign post in the ground just prior to the stop line.

Not sure when the GSV was taken at that intersection; but the above-condition (missing sign & post) was indeed still true as of Easter weekend of this year.

[PurdueBill]

Here's where such was done on an actual street: Burrill St. & Humphrey St. (MA 129) in Swampscott

Wonder why they did not install an octagon there?  Looks like there's room for one on the right.

If you look closely at the grass to the right, it appears there used to be a sign post in the ground just prior to the stop line.

Not sure when the GSV was taken at that intersection; but the above-condition (missing sign & post) was indeed still true as of Easter weekend of this year.

On my screen it says October 2012 for the street view imagery (not that the date is shown on all platforms--this is using the "old" Google maps and street view).  Sign's been missing a long time...I wonder if they took it down on purpose so as to make the island look prettier?