We don't need no Infrastructure (spending)

[Otto Yamamoto]

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/06/trump-infrastructure-nationalism

[Rothman]

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/06/trump-infrastructure-nationalism

Hm.  I'm wondering about the "number of structurally deficient bridges being cut in half since 1992" statistic.  Not my area of expertise, but given what I've heard in more recent years, I'd wonder if this statistic is based on some sort of definition change or some other shenanigan.

[roadman]

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/06/trump-infrastructure-nationalism

Hm.  I'm wondering about the "number of structurally deficient bridges being cut in half since 1992" statistic.  Not my area of expertise, but given what I've heard in more recent years, I'd wonder if this statistic is based on some sort of definition change or some other shenanigan.

Remember that the term "structurally deficient" covers a very large range of "substandard" conditions, most of which have nothing to do with the actual structural integrity of the bridge itself.  So I could see how it could be very easy to come up with statistics in support of such a claim.

[cpzilliacus]

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/06/trump-infrastructure-nationalism

Hm.  I'm wondering about the "number of structurally deficient bridges being cut in half since 1992" statistic.  Not my area of expertise, but given what I've heard in more recent years, I'd wonder if this statistic is based on some sort of definition change or some other shenanigan.

It is my (informal) observation that bridge deck replacements or in some cases rehabilitation projects will often remove a bridge from the structurally deficient list, and some state DOT's have been doing a lot of that sort of work. Disclaimer: I am not a bridge engineer.

Sometimes bridges get rebuilt as part of widening projects or to add new managed lanes.

And sometimes a total replacement is warranted (one example not too far from me is on Maryland's I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel Thruway) just north of the north  tunnel portal, where the structurally deficient Canton Viaduct will soon be replaced (MDTA is supposed to be advertising it for bids in the near future).

Apparently a very large chunk of the revenue from the motor fuel tax increase in Pennsylvania is going for bridge replacement and/or repair. Since Penn's Woods has had so many structurally deficient and/or functionally obsolete structures, that work should be "moving the needle" on national statistics.

[sparker]

Not to get too political here, but Dalmia, like other Reason Foundation pundits, essentially functions from the viewpoint that public-sector spending, aside from "existential" purposes as defense and public safety, should be shrunk to the greatest degree feasible -- if not eliminated.  Thus, the infrastructure spending proposals by either Trump or Clinton are, de facto, contrary to their overall view; concluding that there is substantially reduced need for such proposals is part & parcel of their supporting methodology.  I, for one, view such ideologically-motivated articles with a shaker -- rather than a single grain -- of salt!

[SSOWorld]

Lets keep the topic focused on roads and away from politics.  The article is more political than road, but lets try to focus on roads more than politics.  If that doesn't happen, this topic will be locked.

[Revive 755]

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/06/trump-infrastructure-nationalism

The number of potholes on some of the interstates, much less the quality of traffic flow on some of the interstates in rural areas (such as I-70 across Missouri) are strong indications that the roads in the US are not fine or getting better.  Additionally, even though most of the roads and bridges are maintained by non-federal agencies, those agencies can still get, and very frequently do get federal funding for repairs and improvements.

EDIT:  Then there's the existence of the whole 'federal aid' road system for the US, probably detailed somewhere in a state dot manual for local agencies (possible example from Illinois).

[cpzilliacus]

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/06/trump-infrastructure-nationalism

The number of potholes on some of the interstates, much less the quality of traffic flow on some of the interstates in rural areas (such as I-70 across Missouri) are strong indications that the roads in the US are not fine or getting better.  Additionally, even though most of the roads and bridges are maintained by non-federal agencies, those agencies can still get, and very frequently do get federal funding for repairs and improvements.

My bigger gripe with Missouri's part of I-70 (in particular the long segment, about 190 miles, between the eastern suburbs of Kansas City, Missouri and the western suburbs of St. Louis) are the numerous substandard diamond interchanges and nearly all of the freeway being the same four lanes that it was when built, even though the traffic volumes that I observed would seem to imply that it should be six or even eight lanes. 

The long truss span over the Missouri River near milepost 114 (Rocheport) seemed pretty narrow (no shoulders of any kind), and not much fun to cross in the company of many large commercial vehicles.

The wearing course of the pavement on I-70 seemed to be in fairly good condition, but I have read elsewhere (or maybe here) that what is below that wearing course is in bad shape, and that full-depth reconstruction of most of I-70 will soon be needed.

[Duke87]

Rebuilding perfectly serviceable infrastructure just to make it look nicer is stupid.

However, I daresay the prevalence of desirable and useful projects which do not move due to lack of funding is an indicator that something could stand to be improved.

Not that that necessarily means more money, mind you. Here in NYC we'd be set if we could figure out how to make things not cost ten times what they do everywhere else, and what that requires is better management.

[Rothman]

Here in NYC we'd be set if we could figure out how to make things not cost ten times what they do everywhere else, and what that requires is better management.

Have to disagree with the idea that "better management" could dramatically reduce costs in NYC.  Contractors go through the competitive bid process for most projects in the NYC area, just like they do everywhere else (the big exclusion being design-build, from which a winner is chosen from a much more restricted pool of contractors).  The fact of the matter is that the factors that affect costs in NYC are simply not in NYSDOT's (or NYCDOT's, or PANYNJ's, or NYSTA's...) control.

[cjk374]

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/06/trump-infrastructure-nationalism

The number of potholes on some of the interstates, much less the quality of traffic flow on some of the interstates in rural areas (such as I-70 across Missouri) are strong indications that the roads in the US are not fine or getting better.  Additionally, even though most of the roads and bridges are maintained by non-federal agencies, those agencies can still get, and very frequently do get federal funding for repairs and improvements.

My bigger gripe with Missouri's part of I-70 (in particular the long segment, about 190 miles, between the eastern suburbs of Kansas City, Missouri and the western suburbs of St. Louis) are the numerous substandard diamond interchanges and nearly all of the freeway being the same four lanes that it was when built, even though the traffic volumes that I observed would seem to imply that it should be six or even eight lanes. 

The long truss span over the Missouri River near milepost 114 (Rocheport) seemed pretty narrow (no shoulders of any kind), and not much fun to cross in the company of many large commercial vehicles.

The wearing course of the pavement on I-70 seemed to be in fairly good condition, but I have read elsewhere (or maybe here) that what is below that wearing course is in bad shape, and that full-depth reconstruction of most of I-70 will soon be needed.

I made regular trips to Columbia, MO 20 years ago. The running surface sucked then. Traffic was thick and tricky then as well. I had hoped all of that had been rectified since then.

Another thing that baffled me about MoDOT practices...there were many miles of 2-lane state & US highways that were concrete paved, but (what seemed to me) not a single mile of concrete paved interstate outside of the big cities. Is it still that way now?

[Duke87]

Have to disagree with the idea that "better management" could dramatically reduce costs in NYC.  Contractors go through the competitive bid process for most projects in the NYC area, just like they do everywhere else (the big exclusion being design-build, from which a winner is chosen from a much more restricted pool of contractors).  The fact of the matter is that the factors that affect costs in NYC are simply not in NYSDOT's (or NYCDOT's, or PANYNJ's, or NYSTA's...) control.

I'm thinking bigger than that with "better management". Not better management at any given agency, but rather better coordination and red tape cutting.

An example: as part of the 2nd Ave subway construction, contractors poured a new section of sidewalk, per the specs they were provided by the MTA. An inspector for NYCDOT took a look at their work and made them jackhammer the sidewalk up and redo it. Reason? The concrete they used was a different color from standard NYCDOT specs. So the contractor issued the MTA a changeorder, and our tax dollars were spent laying a sidewalk twice because it was the wrong color the first time.

So here's where better management comes in. Why in the hell does NYCDOT have a rule about what color the concrete in the sidewalk needs to be? These sort of silly rules need to go. As, for that matter, does the turf war mindset that leads to NYCDOT inspectors giving the MTA's contractor a hard time purely because NYCDOT doesn't like someone who they aren't directly in charge of working in their streets.

[Rothman]

So here's where better management comes in. Why in the hell does NYCDOT have a rule about what color the concrete in the sidewalk needs to be?

So all the City's sidewalks look the same.

[cl94]

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/06/trump-infrastructure-nationalism

But muh roads!

This is one of the places where I disagree with the Libertarians. Infrastructure spending is very important and a necessary budget item.

[kalvado]

So here's where better management comes in. Why in the hell does NYCDOT have a rule about what color the concrete in the sidewalk needs to be?

So all the City's sidewalks look the same.

Did they start ordering all buildings painted the same color as well?
Standartization is important.. until it becomes a hindrance of standardization for the sake of standardization.

[Revive 755]

Another thing that baffled me about MoDOT practices...there were many miles of 2-lane state & US highways that were concrete paved, but (what seemed to me) not a single mile of concrete paved interstate outside of the big cities. Is it still that way now?

I seem to recall I-55 between Festus and Cape Girardeau having many miles of concrete pavement, such as this section north of Jackson or this section near Bloomsdale..  However it, looks like MoDOT has overlaid many of the PCC segments.

I also recall a few stretches of concrete on I-44 between St. Louis and Springfield - I can find one on Streetview just west of Rolla,  Streetview - as well as stretches of PCC on I-29 and I-35 (which it appears MoDOT may have overlaid since the last time I've driven them).

[rarnold]

I-35 north of Liberty has many sections of concrete pavement.

[Rothman]

So here's where better management comes in. Why in the hell does NYCDOT have a rule about what color the concrete in the sidewalk needs to be?

So all the City's sidewalks look the same.

Did they start ordering all buildings painted the same color as well?

No. When buildings look different, it builds character.  When sidewalks look different, it's a mess.

[kalvado]

So here's where better management comes in. Why in the hell does NYCDOT have a rule about what color the concrete in the sidewalk needs to be?

So all the City's sidewalks look the same.

Did they start ordering all buildings painted the same color as well?

No. When buildings look different, it builds character.  When sidewalks look different, it's a mess.

Too bad they still allow that mess with building appearance! Calling it fancy words does not fix the mess!

[kphoger]

Heaven forbid there be two different colors of fire hydrants.  People would move away in droves due to the  visual blight.