Dallas IH 345 study RFQ

[roadman65]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+dallas+freeway+removal&view=detail&mid=C3DB6C45E68E36ECC53EC3DB6C45E68E36ECC53E&FORM=VIRE
I just saw this and apparently some local group is pushing for the removal of I-345 saying its crumbling and separating the city.

Forget the amount of traffic that uses it daily.

[sparker]

^^^^^^
The video seen via the above post is over 3 years old at this time; this thread isn't even that old, so what you're hearing on it is (a) "old news" and (b) essentially a screed rather than a look at the various alternatives available re I-345, which have been rather thoroughly discussed upthread.  Whenever there's a major city undergoing changes, often in the nature of "gentrification", there's invariably one group or another who want to eliminate area freeways; this is really no different.

[txstateends]

There are still a few hangers-on to the notion that the elevated freeway is a wall or barrier to economic and sociological movement in that part of Dallas, which is completely ridiculous.  There are apparently others that seem to think there are development possibilities by getting rid of I-345.  Occasionally social media, online sites, and traditional media locally have articles or postings about the possibilities, not really realizing the sheer amount of traffic that would have to go in other directions (and not all along Cesar Chavez or Good-Latimer) in the absence of the freeway.  TxDOT has other projects and plans closer to the front burner than anything regarding redoing/redirecting/removal of I-345 at the moment.  Not to mention the real possibility that enough could be done to promote the conversion-to-interstate of US 75 north of downtown to as faraway as OK (which many that aren't roadfans or economic development types don't seem to be aware of).  To me, that alone would preclude any long-term push to completely get rid of I-345.

[mrsman]

Is there a reason why this highway is 345 and not a northern extension of I 45?

Nexus 5X

[sparker]

There are still a few hangers-on to the notion that the elevated freeway is a wall or barrier to economic and sociological movement in that part of Dallas, which is completely ridiculous.  There are apparently others that seem to think there are development possibilities by getting rid of I-345.  Occasionally social media, online sites, and traditional media locally have articles or postings about the possibilities, not really realizing the sheer amount of traffic that would have to go in other directions (and not all along Cesar Chavez or Good-Latimer) in the absence of the freeway.  TxDOT has other projects and plans closer to the front burner than anything regarding redoing/redirecting/removal of I-345 at the moment.  Not to mention the real possibility that enough could be done to promote the conversion-to-interstate of US 75 north of downtown to as faraway as OK (which many that aren't roadfans or economic development types don't seem to be aware of).  To me, that alone would preclude any long-term push to completely get rid of I-345.

Just the notion that the freeway segment they want to eliminate may be considered as a part of an even longer new Interstate trunk designation would likely evoke an apoplectic reaction from the "teardown" activists.  It may even be seen as "doubling down" on the sort of situation they abhor -- insult added on to their perceived injury!  But, OTOH, once the activists realized that they'd now be dealing with a regional rather than simply a neighborhood issue, consideration of an alternate concept to a simple removal (cut/cover, etc.) may emerge as a longer-term acceptable solution. 

[txstateends]

Is there a reason why this highway is 345 and not a northern extension of I 45?

I've never understood it.  I guess they feel it's too short to sign it as I-345.  It is signed NB as US 75 and SB as I-45, but why they don't 'officially' do it one or the other, I'm not sure.  The exit numbering keeps going NB until Woodall Rodgers, but not the designation.  I guess it's the old-school "can't have an interstate end anywhere but another interstate" thing, although exceptions for that now abound.

[txstateends]

...., consideration of an alternate concept to a simple removal (cut/cover, etc.) may emerge as a longer-term acceptable solution. 

I wouldn't mind a US 75-north-of-downtown-style trench or a deck park like over Woodall Rodgers.  Some of the naysayers have come out and said the 2nd DART line that is to be a subway-style downtown would be a problem if the freeway is trenched, but they are probably the same people that don't want it at all.  It's probably staying for a while, since TxDOT has had inspectors going over the undersides of the freeway deck for the last couple or so years looking for bridge problems/issues, and I guess fixing the stuff they run across.

[sparker]

...., consideration of an alternate concept to a simple removal (cut/cover, etc.) may emerge as a longer-term acceptable solution. 

I wouldn't mind a US 75-north-of-downtown-style trench or a deck park like over Woodall Rodgers.  Some of the naysayers have come out and said the 2nd DART line that is to be a subway-style downtown would be a problem if the freeway is trenched, but they are probably the same people that don't want it at all.  It's probably staying for a while, since TxDOT has had inspectors going over the undersides of the freeway deck for the last couple or so years looking for bridge problems/issues, and I guess fixing the stuff they run across.

Probably right about the "naysayers"; likely their ranks are mostly political activists, possibly with a few friendly technical types as consultants.  But engineers have been layering underground facilities within cities for at least the last century; look at S.F., with surface LR on Market Street, a subway version of LR directly below it, and BART commute rail underneath it all.  Not to mention NYC, where subway lines have been ducking each other -- as well as the city utilities -- for as long as there has been the proverbial "hole in the ground", as the song goes!  A trenched I-345 (45?) down 25 feet or so wouldn't stop DART from crossing it at minus 45-50 feet!   

[Plutonic Panda]

...., consideration of an alternate concept to a simple removal (cut/cover, etc.) may emerge as a longer-term acceptable solution. 

I wouldn't mind a US 75-north-of-downtown-style trench or a deck park like over Woodall Rodgers.  Some of the naysayers have come out and said the 2nd DART line that is to be a subway-style downtown would be a problem if the freeway is trenched, but they are probably the same people that don't want it at all.  It's probably staying for a while, since TxDOT has had inspectors going over the undersides of the freeway deck for the last couple or so years looking for bridge problems/issues, and I guess fixing the stuff they run across.

They're full of shit. A trenched or even tunneled freeway wouldn't be a subway killer. The subway will just be a little deeper in this area.

[Bobby5280]

The main thing is that's a subway killer is cost. It's ridiculous how much it costs to build a subway, much less a modest light rail line (or even trolley service) built at-grade.

[Plutonic Panda]

The main thing is that's a subway killer is cost. It's ridiculous how much it costs to build a subway, much less a modest light rail line (or even trolley service) built at-grade.

if you want something nice and done right, you have to pay for it. IMO, it's time for Dallas to invest in a real transit system with heavy rail. But you aren't wrong about the enormous expense. That's just something Dallas residents will need to decide if they want to pony up the money for. But any excuse of this freeway being built below grade preventing that is bs.

[Bobby5280]

No one expects something like a new subway line to be built for cheap. On the other hand it is nothing but flat out ridiculous for the rampant cost inflation on all sorts of infrastructure projects, such as subways, to continue going on completely unchecked. This kind of nonsense is going to lead to serious consequences for our nation unless some major changes happen. Few other nations pay as much as we do for building new roads, bridges and rail lines. China intends to become the center of all forms of world commerce. And they're building all kinds of major infrastructure projects for a fraction of what we pay to build the same thing.

[Plutonic Panda]

Well something has to give, because if we just keep sitting here and not doing anything, then we will be passed up and before we know it we could easily end up like previous empires. Not trying to be an alarmist here, but no one will ever believe it will happen until it does. We need to tread carefully.

The cities ans states just need to make sure this stuff gets built somehow and someway regardless of the costs because complaining about the costs and not doing anything but waiting to see if there is a way to bring them down is not a good strategy. They find the money and build the damn infrastructure. Meanwhile at the same time find ways to reduce costs for building such infrastructure in the future.

I always hear people complain about high costs but no one really ever seems to come forward with plans. The plans that do ever come forward never seem to go anywhere and don't get much attention.

I feel the same way about the gas tax in California. I get why people are so mad about the gas tax because Caltrans probably does waste money and I have read about the scandals, so there's not a lot of trust and it's understandable why some would be against it. But until I see a plan put forward to actually address the issue and not the symptoms, I will support the gas tax because people need a wake up call here. When it comes to hitting people's pockets, then they start to listen, unless the infrastructure starts crumbling beneath us which if people think it's bad now it will only get worse until we start doing something about it.

[Bobby5280]

The "something" that's going to end up giving is the nation going broke, the economy imploding and our national security put into a very weak situation. I'm very worried about what could happen over the next 10-20 years. Just making sure stuff gets built and what not regardless of cost is how we're getting into this sitation. It's blatant denial of basic financial math.

The price gouging trends in infrastructure spending have risen way beyond the trend of average income growth. Over the long term that creates an obviously unsustainable situation. The stuff gets paid with taxpayer dollars. If income growth is happening very slowly (and politicians are handing out lots of tax cut candy to pander to voters) that very easily means the won't be enough money for these big projects. The tax base is not growing in proportion to these price increases. It means adding more and more red ink to budget deficits. Taxpayers are being taken for a price gouging ride in other sectors, like higher education and health care. Adding more to the squeeze: private industry price gouging on the basics, like housing, child care, etc.

Basically there's a bunch of pigs eating the nation's seed corn for future crops. They're gouging away as much money as possible for themselves for short term gain at the expense of a sustainable future. Our nation's GDP in 2016 was $18.57 trillion. Our national debt has surpassed annual GDP; for FY 2018 it hit $21 trillion. If we want to keep going along with this insanity, just letting the pigs eat as much as they want, our national debt will be double the size of our GDP in less than 20 years. We'll see a crash in population growth due to the outrageous costs of having children. Over time that will lead to a hard fall in real estate values (more customers dying off than new ones being created) and a serious labor shortage for things such as our military.

The price excesses going on with things like subways, bridges and what not are a symptom of a much bigger, fundamental problem. It's going to take some tough regulation and other hard choices to get these price gouging trends under control. Right now lawmakers and business people are proceeding as if no problem exists. They're cashing in right now and living in denial. Some American financial experts almost jokingly look at the hopeless financial chaos going on in countries like Venezuela; like people rubber-necking at a car accident. 'Murica is not immune from winding up in the same hopeless mess.