Holding a pedestrian push button to get a longer time

[hotdogPi]

Let's say that the MUTCD requires a 25-second pedestrian walk time, but doing that delays the cars significantly. Because of this, the intersection is set up so that pressing the button gives you 15 seconds, and holding it gives you 25 (with a sign saying exactly that). This means that most people can cross regularly in 15 seconds (or diagonally in 25, if it's an all-red phase), and slower walkers, such as people with canes or wheelchairs, can hold the button to get the full 25 seconds they need (but not diagonally).

Does this type of setup exist anywhere?

[roadfro]

I haven't seen this implemented anywhere, but the 2009 MUTCD does provision for it.

One of the big gripes traffic engineers had about the 2009 MUTCD was the reduction of assumed pedestrian walking speed down to 3.5 ft/s (this determines the length of pedestrian clearance interval and results in longer FDW times from the original 4.0 ft/s assumed speed). A mitigating factor though is that in cases where an extended push button exists, clearance intervals based on the original 4.0 ft/s walking speed can be used but the extended press will use an a clearance interval calculated for 3.5 ft/s.

[mrsman]

FOr whatever reason, this reminds me of some toilets that allow for pushing the handle one way for less water (for #1) or more water (for #2).  In a way, it seems effective as you only use a full flush when its needed, but conserve water a majority of the time.

I like the concept as there are many signals that are on state red because they assume that pedestrians are still crossing, when all but the slowest can clearly get out of the way quickly.  In some ways it is the underlying concept of HAWKs and similar signals that allow drivers to proceed on flashing red once peds have cleared.

[1995hoo]

Seems like most people push the button 25 times anyway thinking it'll make the light turn sooner, similar to how people behave with elevators. One time when I had pushed the button for the down elevator and a colleague came along and pushed it again, I asked him, "What, do you think I pushed the button with the wrong hand so the elevator won't come?" He didn't know what to say.

[jeffandnicole]

Let's say that the MUTCD requires a 25-second pedestrian walk time, but doing that delays the cars significantly. Because of this, the intersection is set up so that pressing the button gives you 15 seconds, and holding it gives you 25 (with a sign saying exactly that). This means that most people can cross regularly in 15 seconds (or diagonally in 25, if it's an all-red phase), and slower walkers, such as people with canes or wheelchairs, can hold the button to get the full 25 seconds they need (but not diagonally).

Does this type of setup exist anywhere?

The anti-car community is already up in arms that they need to press the button at all, and they believe that the light should cycle every time, and every walk signal should operate automatically. These people also have no clue - or don't care - at what congestion this would cause by every signal going into a lengthy cycle even for 0 cars 24/7, and many bicyclists and mass-transit users would suffer by needlessly stopping at red lights (which, especially for bicyclists, they'll ignore anyway).  Being that more congestion would cause more pollution; those on foot or bike at the longer red lights would suffer the most, so they're hurting themselves wanting this.

So, asking them to press the button even longer would give some of them heart attacks at the very thought of the inconvenience bestowed upon them.

Seems like most people push the button 25 times anyway thinking it'll make the light turn sooner, similar to how people behave with elevators. One time when I had pushed the button for the down elevator and a colleague came along and pushed it again, I asked him, "What, do you think I pushed the button with the wrong hand so the elevator won't come?" He didn't know what to say.

Shit like this drives me crazy. I had a co-worker that would step into the elevator, then several seconds later would press the close door button, even though the doors were already closing.  Every. Single. Time.

[kphoger]

Seems like most people push the button 25 times anyway thinking it'll make the light turn sooner, similar to how people behave with elevators. One time when I had pushed the button for the down elevator and a colleague came along and pushed it again, I asked him, "What, do you think I pushed the button with the wrong hand so the elevator won't come?" He didn't know what to say.

I once walked up to an elevator with a few people already waiting for it.  I didn't see the button lit up, so I walked up and pushed it.  It turned out that everyone assumed someone else had already called the elevator but nobody actually had.

[1995hoo]

Seems like most people push the button 25 times anyway thinking it'll make the light turn sooner, similar to how people behave with elevators. One time when I had pushed the button for the down elevator and a colleague came along and pushed it again, I asked him, "What, do you think I pushed the button with the wrong hand so the elevator won't come?" He didn't know what to say.

I once walked up to an elevator with a few people already waiting for it.  I didn't see the button lit up, so I walked up and pushed it.  It turned out that everyone assumed someone else had already called the elevator but nobody actually had.

[mrsman]

Seems like most people push the button 25 times anyway thinking it'll make the light turn sooner, similar to how people behave with elevators. One time when I had pushed the button for the down elevator and a colleague came along and pushed it again, I asked him, "What, do you think I pushed the button with the wrong hand so the elevator won't come?" He didn't know what to say.

I once walked up to an elevator with a few people already waiting for it.  I didn't see the button lit up, so I walked up and pushed it.  It turned out that everyone assumed someone else had already called the elevator but nobody actually had.

Seriously, that can happen.  If I don't see an indicator light, I'd rather push the button then just assume that the bulb is out.

This is probably even more true for a ped crossing button.  First, many of the older ones don't even have an indicator light.  Second, just becuase someone is standing there, doesn't mean that they had the sense to push the button.  THey may just be waiting around or they may not realize that a button is necessary to cross the street.  There are plenty of times I see a ped get to the corner and wait as someone else is waiting and then when the side street gets a green with a solid don't walk - run across the street with the realization that the signal is short and that nobody actually pushed the button and not wanting to wait for the next cycle.

In DC, the vast majority of signals do not require a push button to cross.  [The ones that do tend to be HAWKs, mid-block crossings, or where the side street is very minor.] However, most do have a button.  These buttons are meant to assist the blind and will operate voice features ("the walk signal is on") if pushed.  But they aren't necessary for most people.

[RobbieL2415]

First, make it illegal to press the walk button and then immediately proceed to jaywalk.
A lot of people do this and its annoying having to wait at an intersection for no reason. You press the button, you wait.

[kphoger]

First, make it illegal to press the walk button and then immediately proceed to jaywalk.
A lot of people do this and its annoying having to wait at an intersection for no reason. You press the button, you wait.

Or just don't push the button to begin with.  I'm fine either way.  But don't do both.

[webny99]

Seems like most people push the button 25 times anyway thinking it'll make the light turn sooner, similar to how people behave with elevators. One time when I had pushed the button for the down elevator and a colleague came along and pushed it again, I asked him, "What, do you think I pushed the button with the wrong hand so the elevator won't come?" He didn't know what to say.

I once walked up to an elevator with a few people already waiting for it.  I didn't see the button lit up, so I walked up and pushed it.  It turned out that everyone assumed someone else had already called the elevator but nobody actually had.

Funny, that reminds me of one time when I was on a guided tour (I think it was Cave of the Winds at Niagara Falls, but I can't remember for sure). We all loaded into the elevator, the tour guide got in, the doors closed, and without further ado, she started reciting her memorized blurb about whatever it was we were about to see/do.

About a minute later, someone says "are we moving?"

Whoops. Turns out she forgot to hit the down button, and we had been sitting there packed like sardines and going absolutely nowhere the whole time. 

[UCFKnights]

Seems like most people push the button 25 times anyway thinking it'll make the light turn sooner, similar to how people behave with elevators. One time when I had pushed the button for the down elevator and a colleague came along and pushed it again, I asked him, "What, do you think I pushed the button with the wrong hand so the elevator won't come?" He didn't know what to say.

I once walked up to an elevator with a few people already waiting for it.  I didn't see the button lit up, so I walked up and pushed it.  It turned out that everyone assumed someone else had already called the elevator but nobody actually had.

The first university I went to (not my username) when I lived in the dorm, I swear like half the time I went to the elevator, someone would seemingly be waiting there, but never pushed the button. I never could figure out what was going on with it. Several times I approached the elevator, the button wasn't pressed, I pressed it, and like 15 seconds later the other person would say "this takes way too long". We were on the 13th floor. I mean, it was slow, it was 1 elevator for a 13 floor building... but I imagine its even slower if you don't press the button. I was convinced I was being pranked by the end of the semester. One of my roommates also was very insistent on bringing the cloth chairs into the showers and leaving them in there. Weirded group of people ever. (Most were foreigners who just arrived in America for college, although it still didn't make a whole lot of sense to me)

[kphoger]

15 seconds later the other person would say "this takes way too long" ... I imagine its even slower if you don't press the button.

Ha!   

[M3100]

In California, pedestrian buttons are ordinarily perpendicular to the street you want to cross.  Many, but not all, had a sign with an arrow pointing the intended direction of travel.  In some other states, however, I have seen the button facing you for the street you want to cross.  Different manufacturers/designs.  Who knew?

[jakeroot]

This signal in Tacoma allows longer crossings. Hold for two seconds to activate. 'I' St is defaulted to always show a walk sign, so the buttons are only to cross over it (via 12th). I believe the button is to assist children crossing the street to the school.

North 12th @ 'I' St, Tacoma, WA (zoom and click around to see the signs).

The signal is also broken. The flashing 'don't walk' phase lasts well into the red phase for 12th, and just barely into the red for 'I' St. I'm sure this is related to the programming allowing the longer cycle length.

https://youtu.be/MXXuUl3WfQM

[STLmapboy]

When I was 10 I got an ice cream at a place in Ladue and decided to be an asshole by pushing the walk button at this pedestrian signal and not walking. It would stop reliably and I thought it was the funniest thing. Worst part was I did it continuously for 20 minutes before getting bored.

[kphoger]

When I was 10 I got an ice cream at a place in Ladue and decided to be an asshole by pushing the walk button at this pedestrian signal and not walking. It would stop reliably and I thought it was the funniest thing. Worst part was I did it continuously for 20 minutes before getting bored.

Hey, when I was seven or eight, my friend and I thought it would be fun to call the operator and to call 9-1-1 from a pay phone in the library parking lot and then say all the swear words we knew–whereupon we rode our bikes home, changed our clothes to disguise ourselves, and then ride back a little while later.  I told someone in a car that the pay phone had eaten my coins earlier and they replied:  Oh, you'd better run, the cops are looking for you!  So we rushed home again.

When we're young, we don't have a good understanding of how our "fun" impacts others.

[roadfro]

This signal in Tacoma allows longer crossings. Hold for two seconds to activate. 'I' St is defaulted to always show a walk sign, so the buttons are only to cross over it (via 12th). I believe the button is to assist children crossing the street to the school.

North 12th @ 'I' St, Tacoma, WA (zoom and click around to see the signs).

The signal is also broken. The flashing 'don't walk' phase lasts well into the red phase for 12th, and just barely into the red for 'I' St. I'm sure this is related to the programming allowing the longer cycle length.

https://youtu.be/MXXuUl3WfQM

The MUTCD allows the pedestrian change interval (FDW) to extend into the adjacent yellow clearance interval so long as there is a 3 second buffer before conflicting vehicle phases. It just seems a lot of agencies time the pedestrian change interval to end with the onset of yellow. However, the pedestrian change is not supposed to bleed over into the red change interval. They probably didn't account for this when setting up the extended crossing times.

[jakeroot]

The MUTCD allows the pedestrian change interval (FDW) to extend into the adjacent yellow clearance interval so long as there is a 3 second buffer before conflicting vehicle phases. It just seems a lot of agencies time the pedestrian change interval to end with the onset of yellow. However, the pedestrian change is not supposed to bleed over into the red change interval. They probably didn't account for this when setting up the extended crossing times.

Thanks for the information. I was thinking that, as installed, something wasn't right. I was not aware that the FDW phase was allowed to extend through the yellow phase (since that's so extremely rare), but obviously that's only part of what's going on at the signal in my video. I can say with certainty that the all-red interval at this intersection is not three seconds. I think it's about one second at most. Which is itself a bit odd, since WA is a "permissive yellow" state where all-red of at least two seconds is highly suggested (although yes, not required).