Button Copy

[Quillz]

Was button copy ever shown to actually be less legible than the modern retro-reflective signs, or was it simply discontinued due to cost reasons?

From my own personal standpoint, I never found button copy signs difficult to read, but they did seem less legible from a distance.

[J N Winkler]

To my knowledge, there has never been a direct legibility comparison between button copy and either demountable or direct-applied copy with whole-letter retroreflectorization.  The main concerns in the research that has been done on the button copy versus retroreflective sheeting question have related to the durability of materials (which includes aspects of sign construction, not just copy type) and the lifecycle cost.  Caltrans has the 1959 Roseville bypass sign study on its website, which is a prime example of this.  I am also aware that Caltrans carried out at least four studies of signing policy between 1960 and 1980, at least two of which touched on the button copy versus retroreflective sheeting issue.  Most if not all of these should be in a reasonably well-stocked library in the UC system (I know UC Berkeley has some of them; perhaps UC Irvine does as well?).

The 1959 sign study shows some sheeting, copy, and substrate material combinations which were subsequently abandoned in California:  button copy on retroreflective sheeting (used by Arizona DOT until 2000), retroreflective sheeting on porcelain enamel (no recent use in California that I am aware of, though Caltrans used OCB with sheeting for foreground elements for decades until the mid-2000's), and sheeting on sheeting (now the current standard).

[agentsteel53]

and that clears up a mystery.  I know someone who has a retroreflective sign with a Div Hwys logo.  It is very likely from a related signing experiment, and therefore dates to about 1955.  (It was firmly attached to a wall so I could not get a glimpse of the date code.)

that sign is a yellow diamond; I forget what legend is on it.  Too bad no guide signs from these experimental runs appear to survive!  

it looks like in 1959 they chose to go with button copy on non-reflective background for roadside-mounted signs, but not completely consistently.  Porcelain signs were being made as late as 1963.

overhead porcelain signs (with either over- or under-lighting, and no retroreflective elements) were used until 1973.

I think for small distance signs signs (those that replaced white porcelain signs with black legend), they went with retroreflective white on retroreflective green by 1959.

[realjd]

I always thought California's way of doing button-copy on non-reflecting backgrounds was easier to read, but I think that was more related to the fact that the letters reflected but the background didn't. In state like Indiana that use button copy on reflective backgrounds, the button copy seems harder to read, especially as the signs age.

Not that me driving around is anything close to a scientific study!

[agentsteel53]

you are quite correct; retroreflective background with button copy foreground tends to wash out something awful, because the plastic buttons turn yellow and opaque over the years due to UV radiation (much like car headlights) while Scotchlite sheeting loses its effectiveness much more slowly.

[mobilene]

In state like Indiana that use button copy on reflective backgrounds, the button copy seems harder to read, especially as the signs age.

I've seen plenty of signs here in IN at night where the green lights up and the letters are dark. Still legible, just not what the signmakers intended.

[hbelkins]

I think the last button copy sign in Kentucky is now gone.

The last one on a road was on southbound I-75 in northern KY approaching the KY 236 exit and IIRC it was mounted on one of the bridges of the I-275 interchange. I think I may have a small video still capture of it somewhere but I have no actual photo. It went bye-bye sometime in the late 90s.

But there was a blue sign for the University of Kentucky Agricultural Experimental Station out in the field at the UK facility, located near the NW quadrant of the Newtown Pike exit (KY 922) in Lexington. The sign was some distance off the highway but it was very obviously and noticeable button copy.

I never got a photo of it. On a recent trip to Frankfort I noticed it had been replaced with a decorative-type sign.

[Alps]

My I-275 page disagrees. Coney Island / River Downs, button copy, eastbound just before the Ohio River, very much on the Kentucky side.

[agentsteel53]

is the one on 275 an Ohio product? 

an out-of-state job is the only way you will ever find button copy in Virginia for example (not counting some extra-old glass cateyed signs) - on I-77, the Exit 1 advance signage for West Virginia begins before the state line, but all the signs are courtesy of WV.

[hbelkins]

My I-275 page disagrees. Coney Island / River Downs, button copy, eastbound just before the Ohio River, very much on the Kentucky side.

There's a sign for I-164 on northbound US 41 that's button copy that's in Kentucky, but it's an Indiana product.

I think the button copy sign you have posted is an Ohio product.

As for the exit tab, I believe Kentucky had quit using button copy on new installations by the time I-275 was built.

[Alps]

My I-275 page disagrees. Coney Island / River Downs, button copy, eastbound just before the Ohio River, very much on the Kentucky side.

There's a sign for I-164 on northbound US 41 that's button copy that's in Kentucky, but it's an Indiana product.

I think the button copy sign you have posted is an Ohio product.

As for the exit tab, I believe Kentucky had quit using button copy on new installations by the time I-275 was built.

It's hard to tell, because it's non-reflective and doesn't look like the current generation of Ohio signs. It could be the previous generation, or it could be the last remnant from Kentucky. Since it's an advance for Ohio exits, it would make sense to be an Ohio sign, but then again being on the KY side of the river it ought to have been replaced by KYDOT at some point either way.

[jjakucyk]

Not that this matters for signs, and I'm not sure if this is true along the entire Ohio-Kentucky border, but near Cincinnati all the bridges are owned by Kentucky.  The state border is at the low water mark on the Ohio side of the river, so the river itself and all the bridges are Kentucky's. 

[Mapmikey]

is the one on 275 an Ohio product? 

an out-of-state job is the only way you will ever find button copy in Virginia for example (not counting some extra-old glass cateyed signs) - on I-77, the Exit 1 advance signage for West Virginia begins before the state line, but all the signs are courtesy of WV.

At recently as 5 years ago there were button copy signs on VA 76 EB at the James River approaching VA 146 but they have been replaced.  There are still a small number of those BGS around Virginia where the letters are individually attached by rivet or similar fastening.  They've always looked old and faded so I don't know if the letters were ever reflective.

In North Carolina some of the BGS's and mileage signs on US 1 in the Sanford area are still button copy.

I-585 NB in Spartanburg still had a couple button copy BGS signs at US 221 and SC 9 when I was there 3 weeks ago.

Mapmikey

[agentsteel53]

At recently as 5 years ago there were button copy signs on VA 76 EB at the James River approaching VA 146 but they have been replaced.  There are still a small number of those BGS around Virginia where the letters are individually attached by rivet or similar fastening.  They've always looked old and faded so I don't know if the letters were ever reflective.

I believe those letters were reflective once upon a time.  I had no idea that VA ever used button copy - it may have been a one-off contract, like the single sign in Louisiana that I know that is button copy: on US-90 somewhere south of I-10.  It may very well be gone - I last saw it in Dec 2006.

There is also a black button copy sign for the Superdome that survives, but I believe that is a city of New Orleans contract.  Otherwise, the only button copy you will find in Louisiana is the glass-cateye signs on the Huey Long bridge in New Orleans, that date back to 1936 when the bridge was opened.  I am really hoping that the reconstruction of that bridge does not claim those four historic signs (one each per direction, per end).

do you know of any button copy in Mississippi or Delaware?  I can't say I've ever seen one.  Though I know Delaware experimented with some really strange reflective options from the 20s to the 50s, like this 113 shield that had the numbers cut out and faceted panels installed behind it.



I have definitely seen NC and SC; there are some on I-85 at US-158 as well in NC, and there is an SC one at the 17/17A split in the south part of the state that has "US 17" spelled out a la 1960s standard!

[Alps]

do you know of any button copy in Mississippi or Delaware?  I can't say I've ever seen one.  Though I know Delaware experimented with some really strange reflective options from the 20s to the 50s, like this 113 shield that had the numbers cut out and faceted panels installed behind it.

Not quite. Edges of the numbers are embossed, Scotchlite applied in the center. I know because I have a curve sign using the same technology.

[agentsteel53]

Not quite. Edges of the numbers are embossed, Scotchlite applied in the center. I know because I have a curve sign using the same technology.

could be either.  I've seen a stop sign with the legend cut out, outlined black, with faceted glass behind the hole.  given that this photo was sent to me as being from 1934 (before Scotchlite was invented) I'd go with the faceted stuff.

[Alps]

Not quite. Edges of the numbers are embossed, Scotchlite applied in the center. I know because I have a curve sign using the same technology.

could be either.  I've seen a stop sign with the legend cut out, outlined black, with faceted glass behind the hole.  given that this photo was sent to me as being from 1934 (before Scotchlite was invented) I'd go with the faceted stuff.

Aye, that's a fair cop.