The Hutch

[mc78andrew]

There are several large signs on the side of the hutch that are still bent right in half from hurricane sandy. To point one out, the sign for route 120 (aka purchase street) in the south bound lanes is a good example. I wish I had a pic but its tough to get on your phone while you are commuting.  Has anyone else noticed this?  Does anyone know whether the billions in storm aid will include fixing these signs?  They are quite impressive with what appears to be to large "I" shaped steel beams sticking vertically out of the ground and the sign attached to them some how.  I guess the beams were welded somehow as there is basically a clean break several feet off the ground with only a thread holding the sign to the vertical stubs sticking out of the ground. 

i'm not sure we need a new thread for this so feel free to move it to a more appropriate place if need be.

I also noticed a sign I have never noticed before on the hutch.  In the north bound lanes, just before the monster curve that leads this part of the hutch to its merge with the cross county there is an old sign with neon lettering just like the old variable message signs on the NJ turnpike.  I have driven this way many times but only noticed it tonight.  I could barely make out only the last word which appeared to be "ahead".  I assume this is a warning sign for the curve.  Are the anymore like it?

[BamaZeus]

Is this the sign you're referring to?  http://goo.gl/maps/mFqdi

I can make out the word "Ahead" as well, but not the first couple of words.  I looked on a few Youtube videos of the Hutch as well, and I don't see any where the sign is lit up

[mc78andrew]

Is this the sign you're referring to?  http://goo.gl/maps/mFqdi

I can make out the word "Ahead" as well, but not the first couple of words.  I looked on a few Youtube videos of the Hutch as well, and I don't see any where the sign is lit up

That is it!  you nailed it.  It's only lit up at night.  That puppy is old school for sure.  I'll see if I can get a picture of it at night next week.  I wonder why it's the only one?  Or maybe the others just didn't survive? 

[agentsteel53]

I believe it is CAUTION CURVES AHEAD.  don't know if I've ever seen it lit up, but it was definitely there when I regularly drove the road in 2003-4.

[Duke87]

There are several large signs on the side of the hutch that are still bent right in half from hurricane sandy. To point one out, the sign for route 120 (aka purchase street) in the south bound lanes is a good example.

That particular sign has blown over three times in as many years now. It blew over after a massive nor'easter that brought hurricane-force winds to the area in March of 2010. Irene blew it over again the following September. 14 months later, Sandy blew it over once more. It took a couple months to fix the first time, a couple weeks the second time. The third time... 3 1/2 months later it's still down.

Here's a picture I took of it after the 2010 blowover:
 

I also noticed a sign I have never noticed before on the hutch.  In the north bound lanes, just before the monster curve that leads this part of the hutch to its merge with the cross county there is an old sign with neon lettering just like the old variable message signs on the NJ turnpike.  I have driven this way many times but only noticed it tonight.  I could barely make out only the last word which appeared to be "ahead".  I assume this is a warning sign for the curve.  Are the anymore like it?

The sign says "CARS STOPPED AHEAD". It is there because not too far north of this point is a DOT maintenance yard located on the northbound side which has a median break so trucks can also access it from the southbound side. When trucks want to go to/from the southbound lanes they can temporarily stop northbound traffic to let them through, and this sign is to warn of that.

I remember back when I was a kid seeing all the letters light up properly once, and indeed, cars were stopped ahead. I've seen it lit up at night a couple times recently but by now it only reads "PPE   HEAD" (or something similar) with a couple of those letters flickering. No cars were stopped either time, so I assume it was simply malfunctioning.

The letters glow red when lit, just like the NJTP signs.

[SidS1045]

I guess the beams were welded somehow as there is basically a clean break several feet off the ground with only a thread holding the sign to the vertical stubs sticking out of the ground.

I believe that's the type of signpost that's designed to give way if a vehicle crashes into it.  It's intentionally manufactured with one weak spot, which is still strong enough to hold up the sign under normal conditions.  But if a vehicle crashes against it, the post breaks at that point and the vehicle travels under the falling sign, minimizing the damage to the vehicle and its occupants.

[roadman]

I guess the beams were welded somehow as there is basically a clean break several feet off the ground with only a thread holding the sign to the vertical stubs sticking out of the ground.

I believe that's the type of signpost that's designed to give way if a vehicle crashes into it.  It's intentionally manufactured with one weak spot, which is still strong enough to hold up the sign under normal conditions.  But if a vehicle crashes against it, the post breaks at that point and the vehicle travels under the falling sign, minimizing the damage to the vehicle and its occupants.

You are correct.  The support beams for large ground-mounted signs like this one are hinged just below the bottom of the sign panel, and the supports are mounted on "slip bases" with frangible hardware.  The slip bases are designed so a struck post will push up and out of the path of the vehicle.

This is also one of the reasons why roadside signs are installed with a minimum vertical clearance to the bottom of the panel, so most errant vehicles (except perhaps tractor-trailers) will strike the post instead of the sign panel.  Properly designed ground-mounted posts will also enable the sign panel to remain standing, at least temporarily, should one of the posts break away.

During some storms with severe wind gusts, it is not that uncommon for the breakaway feature of these supports to work in reverse.  That is, the sign posts will break at the top hinge instead of the slip base, causing the sign panel to flop over.  This is exactly what happened a couple of years ago to a BBS LOGO panel on I-84 in Sturbridge MA that took a direct hit from one of the tornados that came through that spring.

[Scott5114]

There is a sign on I-35 in Norman, OK that took a hit from a tornado last spring. It's a cantilever sign, and everything above the top of the cantilever was sheared off–basically only the word "EAST" and the exit tab. The shield on the BGS is mostly on the lower part that's still there, but part of it sticks up over the top where it was bolted onto the part that is missing (it was a first-gen meat cleaver that was bolted over top of a circle).

ODOT hasn't fixed it yet. The interchange it refers to is due to be reconfigured some time in the next couple of years, and it's just a pull thru on a c/d road, so it's not really critical to get fixed before then.

[mc78andrew]

It makes a lot of sense from a safety perspective.  I donno though...those signs on the hutch seem like they would give way too high.  I am not anything close to an engineer though.  Looking at the sign it seems that if you hit it, the beams would impale your vehicle stopping it almost dead in its tracks, but I am sure that has been thought of. 

[KEVIN_224]

@ Roadman: Likely with the tornado on June 1, 2011. You still see obvious damage to this day near Mile Marker 6, between Exits 2 and 3.

[roadman]

It makes a lot of sense from a safety perspective.  I donno though...those signs on the hutch seem like they would give way too high.  I am not anything close to an engineer though.  Looking at the sign it seems that if you hit it, the beams would impale your vehicle stopping it almost dead in its tracks, but I am sure that has been thought of. 

A number of states, like New York State, use a breakaway system called "Break-Safe".  Unlike with the slip-base system used in Massachusetts and other states, "Break-Safe" couplings rest directly on top of the frangible bolts where they meet the base.  As there is no separate slip base, the post appears as one solid piece to the casual observer.

The principal issue with introducing Break-Safe couplings into states that don't currently use them is that FHWA considers the system to be a proprietary product and is reluctant to specify it on Federal-Aid projects, except in those cases where Break-Safe has been the established state standard for sign supports.

As for the hinge point on the posts, it is located just below the sign panel to insure that the posts will properly swing up and away from the vehicle.  If the hinge point was higher (i.e. behind the sign), the post would detach from the sign panel instead of breaking away from it; if the hinge point was lower down on the post, the post wouldn't break away far enough to clear the vehicle.

[roadman]

@ Roadman: Likely with the tornado on June 1, 2011. You still see obvious damage to this day near Mile Marker 6, between Exits 2 and 3.

Thanks for the clarification Kevin.  I had a brain freeze and couldn't recall the exact date of the storm.  Besides the BBS that failed, there was a cantilever sign and support that took a direct hit as well.  The support post and foundation were wrenched out of the ground as a result.

[SignBridge]

When NYSDOT completely re-signed the Long Island Parkways in the 1980's, they had a lot of signs topple over like this in high winds, for the first few years. The AAA actually gave them a hard time about it. DOT's reply was that they suspected insufficient bolt tightening by the installing contractor. Most of them were fixed and stayed up afterwards, but we did have one in my area that fell several times, though not anymore in recent years.

[roadman]

When NYSDOT completely re-signed the Long Island Parkways in the 1980's, they had a lot of signs topple over like this in high winds, for the first few years. The AAA actually gave them a hard time about it. DOT's reply was that they suspected insufficient bolt tightening by the installing contractor. Most of them were fixed and stayed up afterwards, but we did have one in my area that fell several times, though not anymore in recent years.

Not to mention insufficient bolt torque inspection by the DOT prior to accepting the project.  And if one sign continued to fall after the repairs, I suspect the original post design for that panel was insufficient for the loading as well.

[SignBridge]

I don't know that NYSDOT does any effective inspection of traffic-signal or sign installations. For example some years back when they re-signalled State-Route 24 in the East Meadow area, the new signal at one main instersection lacked the right-turn arrow that the old signal had. And it was like that for about a year until a local civic-leader reported it to them and DOT acted very surprised to find this out. But a month or two later the signal-head was rebuilt with the arrow.

In another example on Northern State Pkwy. westbound at Exit-25/Lakeville Rd. the advance sign has the exit number plaque on the left-side for no apparent reason, even though it's a right-hand exit. Been that way for years! Now if they were doing any kind of inspection before paying the contractor, they should have picked-up that error. Or maybe they did,  and they just don't care.........

[roadman]

Not defending NYSDOT here, but it could also be that the "left-side" exit tab error was never caught on the design plans, which is why the sign was fabricated that way.  Unless you have an inspector who happens to be fluent in signing design standards, it wouldn't surprise me that the error wasn't caught before final acceptance.

[mc78andrew]

Another sign falls:

http://www.lohud.com/videonetwork/2289086428001?odyssey=mod|tvideo2|article