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Author Topic: I-345 in Dallas?  (Read 24053 times)

bugo

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2017, 11:59:37 AM »

Meanwhile, it's exactly the same thing for people who want 345 to be buried or torn down. They simply don't think configuring their city to cater to suburbanites is the best use of public policy, and no one in the suburbs is offering much in counterargument beyond "but we deserve it!" and "you're being selfish by not giving me exactly what I want, when I want it!"

On the flipside, the urbanites are being selfish by wanting to tear down the highways. "How dare you drive through MY part of town!" There is racism involved as well.
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bugo

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2017, 12:26:06 PM »

I vote with my wallet when I drive to Dallas by not spending money in any of these shit towns. I get gas in Tulsa or Dallas, and if I need to stop for other reasons I'll stop at an exit on a freeway section (or the concessions on the Indian Nation Turnpike) and not in Podunkia.
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bugo

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2017, 12:50:15 PM »

Part of that was a sour taste left in my mouth from bugo's and Bobby5280's earlier comments

I have a sour taste in my mouth from almost getting killed several times on that deathtrap of a road. The risk of being pulled over and becoming a victim of police brutality is another hazard of this road. When I have time, I just go through OKC. It's slower but much more relaxing.
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silverback1065

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2017, 07:27:48 AM »

look at the stats, people are continuing to move to cities, it shows no sign of stopping.  rural life will continue to decline. 
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sparker

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #104 on: November 13, 2017, 02:28:22 PM »

look at the stats, people are continuing to move to cities, it shows no sign of stopping.  rural life will continue to decline. 

And by and large they're taking their existing attitudes with them when they do.  However, very few end up in city centers; recent arrivals from smaller areas tend to cluster in suburbs or even exurbs -- principally because they move for economic reasons rather than a social "sea change".  The more diffused suburban experience is often markedly more reminiscent of their previous situation -- something they can "slide into" with relative ease.  It's simply a matter of self-selection.  Those who prefer city life and its accoutrements are the ones who occupy the condos and/or high-rises in densely packed city cores; again, they self-select into that environment.  Their attitudes tend to gel when in proximity to others of like minds -- including a sense of self-satisfaction with their living choices.  They can't imagine giving up the proximate availability of the conveniences they value; the thought of going elsewhere on a regular or continuing basis just doesn't fit into their particular bounded rationality.  Seeing a freeway in their area, particularly one that eventually heads out to the 'burbs, may strike them as a poor use of available city space -- space that could be utilized to fortify their raison d'etre with housing for more like-minded folks or more of their favored amenities.  Eventually a collective form of that sentiment is politicized (and tribalized) into such things as the freeway tear-down movement seen with I-345 in Dallas, I-81 in Syracuse, and elsewhere, abetted by the urbanist viewpoint (largely affiliated with urban-planning departments at major universities -- their graduates tend to populate if not dominate city planning agencies).  Laying claim to the "high ground" with localized support, these movements tend to affix themselves as the center of attention within a specific situation.  Previous "tear-downs" are cited as successful examples; of course, none of these to date involved severing a major artery (all were spurs or underutilized connectors).  Unfortunately, the discussion has been itself tribalized; the "good/sustainable" urban environment vs. the "misbegotten/wasteful" suburban idiom.  Sides dig in and formulate inviolable credos -- and the matter goes to "study" within the governing institutions.  That's more or less where matters are today; both sides have retrenched to their corners, each positing that the matter is existential to the conduct of their lives (often a series of overstatements).  I, for one, don't know where all this will go in 15-20 years -- or whether an extensive reconfiguration of city centers will take place in one form or another.  All I know is that the sides need to at least achieve a common sense of communication with one another -- or mistakes will be made that, given the fact that billions of dollars are involved, will be difficult to remedy.       
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2017, 04:47:14 PM »

It seems like giant sized cities have a gravitational tractor beam sucking anyone under age 30 to them. However, it's becoming increasingly possible for smaller cities and towns to start poaching away these young people, even after they move to huge cities. But that's only if the cities and towns have enough job opportunities and quality of life features in place to attract those people.

We've been hearing a lot about income inequality lately. Those differences are becoming excruciatingly painful in many large cities, particularly those in the Northeast and California coast. Living costs in these places have soared to profanely ridiculous levels.

New York City, a place where its 5 boroughs tallied over 2000 murders in 1990 is celebrating the likelihood it will finish 2017 with a new record low homicide count near 300 (and that's with 1 million more people living there now than in 1990). The current record low is 333, set in 2014. Seems great, right? What they're not taking into account is massive levels of gentrification that have spread all over. Former combat zones in the South Bronx and Bedford Stuyvesant turned into relatively safe (and mostly white) areas. Many thousands of apartments that were relatively affordable and rent controlled have been, via measures both legal and not, renovated and flipped to higher income tenants paying far higher rent prices. While it may seem great to price all the "bad people" out of a certain neighborhood, doing so comes at a cost. The soaring prices end up pushing a lot of lower and middle income workers out of the neighborhood or completely out of town. NYC's government is dealing with a ballooning number of homeless people. Many of these people are workers with jobs but can't afford anything but staying in a shelter. The city is even putting some homeless people into hotels! It's easy for a tiny efficiency apartment anywhere in NYC to cost over $2000 per month in rent. An apartment big enough for a wife and kids can go for $5000 per month or more.

Every city needs high income earners to pay into the tax base. But cities can't function without their "ditch diggers" too. Caught in between are millions of middle income workers who are seeing their misery index rise to some degree. Young people leaving college are having a very tough time starting out in major cities due to the lack of affordable housing and other high living costs. The costs can be extreme if they're wanting to start families. Many are having to compromise and share homes or apartments with one or more roommates.

Living costs are often far lower in smaller cities and towns. But low costs alone aren't enough to attract skilled workers seeking refuge from the living cost price gouging happening in elite cities. Opportunity and quality of life amenities are important as well. Cities in Texas have been growing like crazy since there are still pockets of affordability there. But prices are on the rise.

I'm afraid cities and towns in Oklahoma will miss out on the opportunity of attracting people fleeing high cost areas of the country. Oklahoma City itself has been doing moderately well. But statewide Oklahoma is turning into a disaster, all thanks to very short-sighted policy coming from the state government. I expect our public education system to take yet another bone-deep cut in funding thanks to what's currently happening (or not happening) at the state capitol. We have teachers, police and other civic workers leaving in droves for better paying jobs elsewhere.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 05:00:33 PM by Bobby5280 »
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silverback1065

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2017, 12:49:57 PM »

look at the stats, people are continuing to move to cities, it shows no sign of stopping.  rural life will continue to decline. 

And by and large they're taking their existing attitudes with them when they do.  However, very few end up in city centers; recent arrivals from smaller areas tend to cluster in suburbs or even exurbs -- principally because they move for economic reasons rather than a social "sea change".  The more diffused suburban experience is often markedly more reminiscent of their previous situation -- something they can "slide into" with relative ease.  It's simply a matter of self-selection.  Those who prefer city life and its accoutrements are the ones who occupy the condos and/or high-rises in densely packed city cores; again, they self-select into that environment.  Their attitudes tend to gel when in proximity to others of like minds -- including a sense of self-satisfaction with their living choices.  They can't imagine giving up the proximate availability of the conveniences they value; the thought of going elsewhere on a regular or continuing basis just doesn't fit into their particular bounded rationality.  Seeing a freeway in their area, particularly one that eventually heads out to the 'burbs, may strike them as a poor use of available city space -- space that could be utilized to fortify their raison d'etre with housing for more like-minded folks or more of their favored amenities.  Eventually a collective form of that sentiment is politicized (and tribalized) into such things as the freeway tear-down movement seen with I-345 in Dallas, I-81 in Syracuse, and elsewhere, abetted by the urbanist viewpoint (largely affiliated with urban-planning departments at major universities -- their graduates tend to populate if not dominate city planning agencies).  Laying claim to the "high ground" with localized support, these movements tend to affix themselves as the center of attention within a specific situation.  Previous "tear-downs" are cited as successful examples; of course, none of these to date involved severing a major artery (all were spurs or underutilized connectors).  Unfortunately, the discussion has been itself tribalized; the "good/sustainable" urban environment vs. the "misbegotten/wasteful" suburban idiom.  Sides dig in and formulate inviolable credos -- and the matter goes to "study" within the governing institutions.  That's more or less where matters are today; both sides have retrenched to their corners, each positing that the matter is existential to the conduct of their lives (often a series of overstatements).  I, for one, don't know where all this will go in 15-20 years -- or whether an extensive reconfiguration of city centers will take place in one form or another.  All I know is that the sides need to at least achieve a common sense of communication with one another -- or mistakes will be made that, given the fact that billions of dollars are involved, will be difficult to remedy.     

when i said "cities" i meant cities and their suburbs.  i.e. the metro area.
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sparker

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2017, 03:29:18 PM »

look at the stats, people are continuing to move to cities, it shows no sign of stopping.  rural life will continue to decline. 

And by and large they're taking their existing attitudes with them when they do.  However, very few end up in city centers; recent arrivals from smaller areas tend to cluster in suburbs or even exurbs -- principally because they move for economic reasons rather than a social "sea change".  The more diffused suburban experience is often markedly more reminiscent of their previous situation -- something they can "slide into" with relative ease.  It's simply a matter of self-selection.  Those who prefer city life and its accoutrements are the ones who occupy the condos and/or high-rises in densely packed city cores; again, they self-select into that environment.  Their attitudes tend to gel when in proximity to others of like minds -- including a sense of self-satisfaction with their living choices.  They can't imagine giving up the proximate availability of the conveniences they value; the thought of going elsewhere on a regular or continuing basis just doesn't fit into their particular bounded rationality.  Seeing a freeway in their area, particularly one that eventually heads out to the 'burbs, may strike them as a poor use of available city space -- space that could be utilized to fortify their raison d'etre with housing for more like-minded folks or more of their favored amenities.  Eventually a collective form of that sentiment is politicized (and tribalized) into such things as the freeway tear-down movement seen with I-345 in Dallas, I-81 in Syracuse, and elsewhere, abetted by the urbanist viewpoint (largely affiliated with urban-planning departments at major universities -- their graduates tend to populate if not dominate city planning agencies).  Laying claim to the "high ground" with localized support, these movements tend to affix themselves as the center of attention within a specific situation.  Previous "tear-downs" are cited as successful examples; of course, none of these to date involved severing a major artery (all were spurs or underutilized connectors).  Unfortunately, the discussion has been itself tribalized; the "good/sustainable" urban environment vs. the "misbegotten/wasteful" suburban idiom.  Sides dig in and formulate inviolable credos -- and the matter goes to "study" within the governing institutions.  That's more or less where matters are today; both sides have retrenched to their corners, each positing that the matter is existential to the conduct of their lives (often a series of overstatements).  I, for one, don't know where all this will go in 15-20 years -- or whether an extensive reconfiguration of city centers will take place in one form or another.  All I know is that the sides need to at least achieve a common sense of communication with one another -- or mistakes will be made that, given the fact that billions of dollars are involved, will be difficult to remedy.     

when i said "cities" i meant cities and their suburbs.  i.e. the metro area.

Got it.  Nevertheless, among the things that have hastened the flight from rural areas to more urbanized regions is both the consolidation of smaller farms into larger cooperative and corporate "agribusinesses"; this has correspondingly raised the level of available capital, which is invariably put into automation of any amenable agricultural process.  The bottom line is that more crops are capable of being planted, reaped, and processed/packed with vastly fewer personnel -- there are simply far fewer jobs in the field than there were 35-40 years ago.  Except for service-industry jobs within the rural towns, which pose limited employment opportunities regarding both numbers and prospects,  the main option for younger people in their late teens and twenties is to, literally and figuratively, "get out of Dodge" and join the ranks of metro-area jobseekers and jobholders.     
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kphoger

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2017, 03:41:36 PM »

literally and figuratively, "get out of Dodge"

The population of Dodge City has been going up since 1940, with just the slightest decrease (-700) between 2013 and now.  Over the last "35-40 years", it has grown by more than 50%.
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silverback1065

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #109 on: November 14, 2017, 06:09:47 PM »

being a hoosier, i would want nothing more than for rural towns to come back, if I could have it my way, the lion share of small towns would have strong downtowns, that are good day/weekend trip destinations. 
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sparker

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2017, 02:42:11 AM »

literally and figuratively, "get out of Dodge"

The population of Dodge City has been going up since 1940, with just the slightest decrease (-700) between 2013 and now.  Over the last "35-40 years", it has grown by more than 50%.

Q1:  In that time frame, can much of the population increase of Dodge City be attributed to people moving into that town from smaller communities nearby?

Q2:  In the "Dodge" realm, what are the population stats of the other one:  Fort Dodge, IA?
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kphoger

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #111 on: November 15, 2017, 01:23:10 PM »

literally and figuratively, "get out of Dodge"

The population of Dodge City has been going up since 1940, with just the slightest decrease (-700) between 2013 and now.  Over the last "35-40 years", it has grown by more than 50%.

Q1:  In that time frame, can much of the population increase of Dodge City be attributed to people moving into that town from smaller communities nearby?

To some degree, I suppose, but Dodge City and other towns in that area of Kansas and Oklahoma have seen a boom in recent decades due to the presence of large-scale meat packing plants.  I only speak anecdotally, having grown up in western Kansas, but I can say that immigration from other countries such as Mexico and Vietnam has played a significant part in the population growth.  They were drawn there with the promise of a high-paying job.  Dodge City, for example, is more than 60% Hispanic today, and you can even take a bus directly to Ciudad Juárez from there.

Q2:  In the "Dodge" realm, what are the population stats of the other one:  Fort Dodge, IA?

I'm not sure how that relates, since the phrase "get the hell out of Dodge" refers to the one in Kansas.  But, since you asked, Fort Dodge's (IA) population peaked around 1970 and has declined by approximately 22% since that time.  Most of that decline happened before 1990, after which point it has gone down by 7% or less (I'm finding conflicting figures for the 1990 census).  The cause of the decline leading up to 1990 was the closing of two big meat-packing plants.



I'm also not sure if should even be thinking of Dodge City or Fort Dodge as "small towns" anyway, considering they both have populations over 20k.
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sparker

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #112 on: November 15, 2017, 03:13:32 PM »

I'm not sure how that relates, since the phrase "get the hell out of Dodge" refers to the one in Kansas.  But, since you asked, Fort Dodge's (IA) population peaked around 1970 and has declined by approximately 22% since that time.  Most of that decline happened before 1990, after which point it has gone down by 7% or less (I'm finding conflicting figures for the 1990 census).  The cause of the decline leading up to 1990 was the closing of two big meat-packing plants.



I'm also not sure if should even be thinking of Dodge City or Fort Dodge as "small towns" anyway, considering they both have populations over 20k.

I was actually being facetious with that second question -- but thanks anyway for digging up the data on Ft. Dodge, IA!
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #113 on: November 15, 2017, 04:17:29 PM »

There's quite a lot of illegal migrant labor working in cattle processing and meat packing plants out on the high plains. Very few American-born people want those jobs. The pay is not great, working conditions are often unpleasant (disgusting and nightmare-fueling on the livestock slaughtering side of business). Even in the bigger name brand companies that at least try to hire American citizen workers the pay is not high at all. We have a Bar-S plant out on Lawton's West side. Most of those jobs pay only a couple dollars or so above minimum wage.

With all the talk of shutting borders and clamping down on illegal immigration, I'm wondering how all these livestock processing plants, meat packaging plants and other agricultural businesses that sell hand-picked produce are going to do if a big chunk of their labor force gets deported. Americans could be paying a hell of a lot more at the grocery store, and/or we would be eating a hell of a lot more imported food imported from who knows where with who knows what we need to wash off it before eating. Several other industries would be affected, like hotels and construction to name a couple. It's a shame all these industries became moderately to heavily dependent on migrant labor. But a bunch of those problems were self-inflicted in the pursuit of higher profit margins.
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kphoger

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #114 on: November 15, 2017, 04:22:20 PM »

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sparker

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #115 on: November 15, 2017, 04:30:21 PM »

Bar-S

cheap, nasty hot dogs...

Absolutely concur -- the only national brands of dogs that are worth anything are Hebrew National, Nathan's, and Vienna; out here we also have Farmer John's; if you get the all-beef variety, they're not half bad!  Everything else, IMO, tastes like bland mush in a tube!
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kphoger

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #116 on: November 15, 2017, 04:36:03 PM »

You know they're cheap when the casing sticks to the grill grate...
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #117 on: November 17, 2017, 11:57:32 AM »

When you see how hot dogs and other processed cold cuts are made and find out what goes into them you won't want to eat any of it regardless of the brand. Polar opposite of health food.
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sparker

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #118 on: November 17, 2017, 05:07:42 PM »

When you see how hot dogs and other processed cold cuts are made and find out what goes into them you won't want to eat any of it regardless of the brand. Polar opposite of health food.

Never though that hot dogs -- or any form of meat sausage, for that matter -- could be in any way confused with health foods.  In a sesame bun, with hot mustard, dill relish, pickled hot peppers, and shredded sharp cheddar, the high-quality ones are awfully good-tasting, though.  I might treat myself to one of those maybe once a month -- and I turn 68 in a couple of weeks, so they haven't killed me yet! 
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kphoger

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #119 on: November 17, 2017, 05:51:21 PM »

Yeah, I don't suppose there are very many people out there thinking of their hot dogs and pepperoni as healthy.
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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #120 on: November 18, 2017, 08:21:47 PM »

When you see how hot dogs and other processed cold cuts are made and find out what goes into them you won't want to eat any of it regardless of the brand. Polar opposite of health food.

Not true for Hebrew National as they have to pass stringent tests to be certified as kosher.
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sparker

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2017, 01:39:45 AM »

When you see how hot dogs and other processed cold cuts are made and find out what goes into them you won't want to eat any of it regardless of the brand. Polar opposite of health food.

Not true for Hebrew National as they have to pass stringent tests to be certified as kosher.

Nevertheless, like most cured meats, they contain a fair amount of nitrates & nitrites; it's probably best if one rations the consumption of those compounds to avoid any deleterious effects.  That being said......if I-345 (even if it eventually  becomes part of a I-45 northern extension) were to be trenched and capped in downtown Dallas, the chances of a hot-dog cart showing up on a "city commons" type of cap is pretty damn good! 

And.........after a detour through the wide world of processed meat products, we're more or less back on track!
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silverback1065

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Re: I-345 in Dallas?
« Reply #122 on: November 20, 2017, 12:24:05 PM »

When you see how hot dogs and other processed cold cuts are made and find out what goes into them you won't want to eat any of it regardless of the brand. Polar opposite of health food.

Not true for Hebrew National as they have to pass stringent tests to be certified as kosher.

they're also delicious
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