Mini Signs

[Tarkus]

Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD.  Holy crap, are those things tiny.  And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere.  It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.

If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.

I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.

Fortunately, I did not receive a ticket when I was there, but as tiny as those signs were, I could see someone easily missing the sign and getting zapped for it.  The photo enforced zones are generally 30mph zones along arterial and collector roadways.  They seem to have been put in sometime earlier this year, as StreetView imagery from September 2012 shows no evidence of it.

[Scott5114]

Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD.  Holy crap, are those things tiny.  And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere.  It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.

If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.

I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.

What technical proof do you need? The MUTCD says in its preface that it is the authoritative document covering signage standards in the United States, and there are tables that spell out how big each sign is required to be at various speeds.

[jeffandnicole]

Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD.  Holy crap, are those things tiny.  And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere.  It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.

If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.

I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.

What technical proof do you need? The MUTCD says in its preface that it is the authoritative document covering signage standards in the United States, and there are tables that spell out how big each sign is required to be at various speeds.

The defendent - the one who was speeding - would have to state what the current speed limit sign size is, and show that table to the judge to reveal what the proper sized sign should be.  "The speed limit sign is too small" doesn't cut it.

It would be interesting to see one of these speed limit signs that is claimed to be undersized...to try to determine if it's truly undersized.

[Brandon]

Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD.  Holy crap, are those things tiny.  And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere.  It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.

If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.

I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.

What technical proof do you need? The MUTCD says in its preface that it is the authoritative document covering signage standards in the United States, and there are tables that spell out how big each sign is required to be at various speeds.

The defendent - the one who was speeding - would have to state what the current speed limit sign size is, and show that table to the judge to reveal what the proper sized sign should be.  "The speed limit sign is too small" doesn't cut it.

It would be interesting to see one of these speed limit signs that is claimed to be undersized...to try to determine if it's truly undersized.

Take a photograph of the sign with a tape measure or ruler in the photograph.  Take measurements of the sign.  Then present the evidence with the MUTCD, the appropriate state MUTCD supplement (if applicable), or the state MUTCD 9if applicable).

[Zeffy]

The defendent - the one who was speeding - would have to state what the current speed limit sign size is, and show that table to the judge to reveal what the proper sized sign should be.  "The speed limit sign is too small" doesn't cut it.

It would be interesting to see one of these speed limit signs that is claimed to be undersized...to try to determine if it's truly undersized.

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part2/part2b.htm#table2B01

Sign or Plaque	Sign Designation	Section	Conventional Road (Single Lane / Multilane)	Freeway	Expressway	Minimum	Oversized
Speed Limit	R2-1	2B.13	24 x 30*  SINGLE               30 x 36 MULTI	36 x 48	48 x 60	18 x 24*	30 x 36

So, if your measurement of any speed limit sign turned out to be less than 18 x 24, than you should have a valid argument that would overturn any violations that occurred due to that speed limit sign being not up to MUTCD standards.

[Scott5114]

Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD.  Holy crap, are those things tiny.  And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere.  It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.

If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.

I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.

What technical proof do you need? The MUTCD says in its preface that it is the authoritative document covering signage standards in the United States, and there are tables that spell out how big each sign is required to be at various speeds.

The defendent - the one who was speeding - would have to state what the current speed limit sign size is, and show that table to the judge to reveal what the proper sized sign should be.  "The speed limit sign is too small" doesn't cut it.

Well, of course. I've never done it before, and one of the lawyers on this forum (I am not one of course) might correct me, but I think that's how you typically present evidence like that. You don't just make an assertion without backing it up.

I don't think you could say something needed "a lot of technical proof" unless your case required having someone like Steve to show up and testify on your behalf as an expert witness. Any layman could print off the MUTCD and make it a part of a traffic case if they did a minimal amount of research to prepare.

Now, if you live in a state with an absolute speed law, this may not work; they could argue "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but I would hope that most judges would take a dim view to that, considering it is difficult to know what the speed limit is in any given area with no proper signage.

[PHLBOS]

Now, if you live in a state with an absolute speed law, this may not work; they could argue "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but I would hope that most judges would take a dim view to that, considering it is difficult to know what the speed limit is in any given area with no proper signage.

For the longest time, my hometown of Marblehead, MA only had speed limit signs posted along the Causeway (Ocean Ave.) to Marblehead Neck.  Everywhere else, the town viewed as the state-defined thickly-settled district and never posted any speed limit signs; the state-defined thickly-settled limit is 30 mph.

Over time, and when one stretch of roadway (MA 129/Atlantic Ave.) received a higher 35 mph posted limit; the town eventually posted standard, but small, SPEED LIMIT 30 signs at each roadway just after the town line/border.  The reasoning for the posted-30 signs at the town entrances was likely due to drivers getting ticketed, challenging their tickets in court, and getting their charges/fines dismissed.  Since there are no courthouses in Marblehead, the cases are handled in neighboring Salem; a judge might be more likely to toss out a ticket if there's no sign present... especially if the motorist is from out-of-state (where implied speed limits differ).

[roadman]

Now, if you live in a state with an absolute speed law, this may not work; they could argue "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but I would hope that most judges would take a dim view to that, considering it is difficult to know what the speed limit is in any given area with no proper signage.

For the longest time, my hometown of Marblehead, MA only had speed limit signs posted along the Causeway (Ocean Ave.) to Marblehead Neck.  Everywhere else, the town viewed as the state-defined thickly-settled district and never posted any speed limit signs; the state-defined thickly-settled limit is 30 mph.

Over time, and when one stretch of roadway (MA 129/Atlantic Ave.) received a higher 35 mph posted limit; the town eventually posted standard, but small, SPEED LIMIT 30 signs at each roadway just after the town line/border.  The reasoning for the posted-30 signs at the town entrances was likely due to drivers getting ticketed, challenging their tickets in court, and getting their charges/fines dismissed.  Since there are no courthouses in Marblehead, the cases are handled in neighboring Salem; a judge might be more likely to toss out a ticket if there's no sign present... especially if the motorist is from out-of-state (where implied speed limits differ).

If the Town posted these 30 mph signs without an approved special speed regulation to back them up, then the speed limit is invalid - even if it happens to match the prima-facie limit for the roadway in question.  This is because, under Massachusetts General Laws, posted limits and prima-facie limits are treated differently.  A posted limit (MGL Chapter 90, section 18) is presumed to be based on a valid speed regulation and, thus, is automatically legal, whereas, for a prima-facie limit (MGL Chapter 90, Section 17), the officer must track the offending vehicle for a certain distance.

Over the years, I've heard multiple stories where either the citing officer wrote up a prima-facie violation under Chapter 90, Section 18 (instead of Section 17), or where cities and towns have tried to enforce posted speed limits that did not have an approved special speed regulation to back up the signs.

[PHLBOS]

If the Town posted these 30 mph signs without an approved special speed regulation to back them up, then the speed limit is invalid - even if it happens to match the prima-facie limit for the roadway in question.

Personally, I have no idea regarding the behind-the-scenes effort regarding those 30 mph signs and my use of the word likely in reference to tickets getting dismissed was personal speculation.  The signs in question were erected a year or two after I moved out of the Bay State in 1990; so I wasn't following the story as closely then. 

OTOH, the speed zoning of Atlantic Ave. (for both the MA 129 and the unnumbered sections) I do remember reading the town meetings initiatives and they're petitioning for an approved special speed regulation; such happened in 1989-1990.  The speed limit was raised to 35 mph for most of the MA 129 section but lowered to 20 (or 25) mph for the downtown Marblehead portion.

Nonetheless, even if Marblehead posted those 30 mph speed limit signs without special approval; not many motorists who get pulled over (for doing 40 or above) are going to know that and they would be pretty hard-pressed to prove that 40+ mph in Marblehead is reasonable & proper.

SPEED LIMIT 30 sign along MA 114/Lafayette St. eastbound just past the Salem/Marblehead border, note the small size (Marblehead usually does not like to post large signs). 

http://goo.gl/maps/jdzkd

[roadman]

Points well taken PHLBOS.  However, if a motorist is cited under MGL 90-18 (on the basis that signs are posted), they would only need to prove that there was no legal regulation to back up the posting of the sign.  Whether or not they were travelling at a "reasonable or proper" speed is only an issue if the speeding ticket also came with a reckless driving charge (in Mass. speeding is a civil offense, but reckless driving is a criminal one).