AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly  (Read 655805 times)

KEVIN_224

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1437
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Connecticut
  • Last Login: Today at 06:32:40 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3875 on: November 08, 2018, 10:57:29 PM »

With the Bushnell Theater in the background of the last picture. The state capitol is with that lawn BTW. :)
Logged

D-Dey65

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1882
  • Age: 53
  • Last Login: Today at 07:18:26 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3876 on: November 08, 2018, 11:08:38 PM »

Okay, more odd ones. I suspect this might be acceptable under MUTCD's emergency management classification:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sand_Bags_sign_on_Anderson_Snow_Road;_October_2018.jpg


If not, perhaps it should be.

Logged

ipeters61

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 256
  • Highway Safety Analyst

  • Age: 24
  • Location: Dover, Delaware
  • Last Login: Today at 09:06:11 PM
    • Personal Website
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3877 on: November 08, 2018, 11:14:21 PM »

With the Bushnell Theater in the background of the last picture. The state capitol is with that lawn BTW. :)
Aha...funny thing is even though I lived in Hartford County for 14 years, I never knew where the Bushnell actually was (simply put, I never really went to Hartford much, even though my father worked there).  Only reason I mentioned the State Library was because that was my destination that day.  I do remember the Capitol being in the vicinity though!
Logged
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
Instagram

roadfro

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3499
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Reno, NV
  • Last Login: Today at 03:56:09 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3878 on: November 09, 2018, 10:37:33 AM »

Okay, more odd ones. I suspect this might be acceptable under MUTCD's emergency management classification:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sand_Bags_sign_on_Anderson_Snow_Road;_October_2018.jpg


If not, perhaps it should be.

That one is probably not even covered by the MUTCD since it's not a traffic control device. If it should be covered by MUTCD, I don't even think the incident management category (black on pink) is appropriate, and should probably be a guide (white on green) or motorist service (white on blue) sign.
Logged
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadman65

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8686
  • Location: Orlando, fl
  • Last Login: November 12, 2018, 03:53:17 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3879 on: November 09, 2018, 12:45:18 PM »

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/9107495135/in/photolist-eSNhVa-eSNi1c-dX5SaK/
This one with the missing EAST header that has a place made for it in Lake Mary, FL.
Logged
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8580
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 22
  • Location: Tacoma, WA · Vancouver, BC · Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 09:44:29 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3880 on: November 10, 2018, 06:56:11 PM »

I've learned that one of the major differences between OR and WA is that, in WA, you can enter intersections and turn, or go straight, on a yellow light (yellow and green are the same thing). But in OR, a yellow light means the same thing as red, except that you can go through on yellow only if you physically can't stop. WA has a "permissive" yellow law, while OR has a "restrictive" yellow law.

So far, I'd never actually seen this law signed, but I did find this sign today in OR, which would be illegal in states like WA with permissive yellow laws. Frankly, I think the sign is dumb and should be removed. Slamming on the brakes on yellow is a safety hazard, but is apparently a driver's only recourse at this signal if there's no gaps.

https://goo.gl/apVQzQ

Logged

Kniwt

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 466
  • Last Login: Today at 11:36:28 AM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3881 on: November 10, 2018, 08:22:12 PM »

Snow Canyon State Park (unsigned UT 300). I trust that the poop is MUTCD-compliant.

Logged

MNHighwayMan

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 2957
  • Blue and gold forever!

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Des Moines
  • Last Login: Today at 10:15:14 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3882 on: November 10, 2018, 08:30:38 PM »

I trust that the poop is MUTCD-compliant.

Makes me think that the FHWA Series needs to be extended to include emojis. :bigass:
Logged

7/8

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 2394
  • Civil EIT (Enjoying the lack of homework!)

  • Age: 23
  • Location: The K in KW (Kitchener, ON)
  • Last Login: Today at 10:13:00 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3883 on: November 10, 2018, 08:34:58 PM »

I've learned that one of the major differences between OR and WA is that, in WA, you can enter intersections and turn, or go straight, on a yellow light (yellow and green are the same thing). But in OR, a yellow light means the same thing as red, except that you can go through on yellow only if you physically can't stop. WA has a "permissive" yellow law, while OR has a "restrictive" yellow law.

So far, I'd never actually seen this law signed, but I did find this sign today in OR, which would be illegal in states like WA with permissive yellow laws. Frankly, I think the sign is dumb and should be removed. Slamming on the brakes on yellow is a safety hazard, but is apparently a driver's only recourse at this signal if there's no gaps.

https://goo.gl/apVQzQ



Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.
Logged


http://www.mob-rule.com/user/dscurtis
http://tm.teresco.org/user/?u=7_8

- Bring back the pre-Mike Harris King's Highway System!

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8580
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 22
  • Location: Tacoma, WA · Vancouver, BC · Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 09:44:29 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3884 on: November 10, 2018, 08:41:13 PM »

Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

In states with that dumb "restricted" yellow law, basically yeah. There's a reason I don't live in a state like Oregon! Such a simple maneuver that should not be illegal.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 08:43:15 PM by jakeroot »
Logged

7/8

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 2394
  • Civil EIT (Enjoying the lack of homework!)

  • Age: 23
  • Location: The K in KW (Kitchener, ON)
  • Last Login: Today at 10:13:00 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3885 on: November 10, 2018, 08:50:07 PM »

Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

In states with that dumb "restricted" yellow law, basically yeah. There's a reason I don't live in a state like Oregon! Such a simple maneuver that should not be illegal.

Damn, that could make a big difference at a busy intersection for throughput.

Do you know which other states have this rule? My quick forum/google searching isn't turning up anything.
Logged


http://www.mob-rule.com/user/dscurtis
http://tm.teresco.org/user/?u=7_8

- Bring back the pre-Mike Harris King's Highway System!

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8580
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 22
  • Location: Tacoma, WA · Vancouver, BC · Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 09:44:29 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3886 on: November 10, 2018, 09:41:04 PM »

Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

In states with that dumb "restricted" yellow law, basically yeah. There's a reason I don't live in a state like Oregon! Such a simple maneuver that should not be illegal.

Damn, that could make a big difference at a busy intersection for throughput.

Do you know which other states have this rule? My quick forum/google searching isn't turning up anything.

This is a PDF prepared by Mats Järlström, an Oregonian whose wife was handed a (IMO) very unjust ticket at a traffic light camera. It lists eight states with restrictive laws:

http://www.jarlstrom.com/PDF/Exhibit_1_FINAL_An_investigation_of_the_ITE_formula_and_its_use_R14.pdf

The states are Iowa, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Jersey, Oregon, Virginia, and Wisconsin. In these states, the only difference is that their law specifically requires drivers to stop on yellow if possible. Other states don't require drivers do anything on yellow other than acknowledge its existence.

Weirdly, it is common practice in several of these states to turn from the middle of the intersection. I didn't know it was the rule in Virginia and I do it all the time there (though I drive mostly in DC where it's technically OK).

Edit for clarification: it is legal in all states to enter the intersection to turn left but in some you have to finish the turn before red. Apparently before yellow at that Oregon intersection above.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 10:38:19 PM by jakeroot »
Logged

KEVIN_224

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1437
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Connecticut
  • Last Login: Today at 06:32:40 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3887 on: November 11, 2018, 07:17:55 AM »

With the Bushnell Theater in the background of the last picture. The state capitol is with that lawn BTW. :)
Aha...funny thing is even though I lived in Hartford County for 14 years, I never knew where the Bushnell actually was (simply put, I never really went to Hartford much, even though my father worked there).  Only reason I mentioned the State Library was because that was my destination that day.  I do remember the Capitol being in the vicinity though!

The Palace Of Ned Lamont (soon) was directly across the street from you on Capitol Avenue. I went by that and the Bushnell Theater several times on CT Transit's #69 bus.
Logged

kphoger

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8064
  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 04:57:51 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3888 on: November 12, 2018, 01:18:48 PM »

Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

In states with that dumb "restricted" yellow law, basically yeah. There's a reason I don't live in a state like Oregon! Such a simple maneuver that should not be illegal.

Damn, that could make a big difference at a busy intersection for throughput.

Do you know which other states have this rule? My quick forum/google searching isn't turning up anything.

This is a PDF prepared by Mats Järlström, an Oregonian whose wife was handed a (IMO) very unjust ticket at a traffic light camera. It lists eight states with restrictive laws:

http://www.jarlstrom.com/PDF/Exhibit_1_FINAL_An_investigation_of_the_ITE_formula_and_its_use_R14.pdf

The states are Iowa, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Jersey, Oregon, Virginia, and Wisconsin. In these states, the only difference is that their law specifically requires drivers to stop on yellow if possible. Other states don't require drivers do anything on yellow other than acknowledge its existence.

My wife and I were pulled over by a cop in Princeton, MN.  The officer advised us that it was because she had turned left on a yellow light.  I would look up the Minnesota statute online, but their site seems to be down right now.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

bzakharin

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1447
  • Last Login: Today at 05:53:56 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3889 on: November 12, 2018, 01:38:31 PM »

I thought yellow was always equivalent to red everywhere, in other words, go only if you can't stop. I never make it a habit to enter an intersection when making a left turn on a green ball at a doghouse unless I see a gap in oncoming traffic. To me a sign like that would just be stating the obvious, and of course I still would make the turn on yellow if I ended up in the intersection when the light turned (what's the alternative?)
Logged

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8580
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 22
  • Location: Tacoma, WA · Vancouver, BC · Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 09:44:29 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3890 on: November 12, 2018, 02:07:43 PM »

My wife and I were pulled over by a cop in Princeton, MN.  The officer advised us that it was because she had turned left on a yellow light.  I would look up the Minnesota statute online, but their site seems to be down right now.

Sounds like you guys were cheated. MN law, according to that PDF, indicates that yellow = warning of red light, not that you must stop.

I thought yellow was always equivalent to red everywhere, in other words, go only if you can't stop. I never make it a habit to enter an intersection when making a left turn on a green ball at a doghouse unless I see a gap in oncoming traffic. To me a sign like that would just be stating the obvious, and of course I still would make the turn on yellow if I ended up in the intersection when the light turned (what's the alternative?)

No no no, yellow in most states = warning of red light, not that you must stop. Drivers Ed often teaches drivers to stop on yellow if possible, but (in most states) you are under no legal obligation to do so. Your only legal obligation is that you don't exceed the speed limit to make the yellow light.

Are you ever honked at for not pulling forward? There's always a gap at the end when the light turns yellow (and then red). In 42 states and DC (and throughout Canada), this is a legal (and practiced) maneuver.
Logged

kphoger

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8064
  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 04:57:51 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3891 on: November 12, 2018, 02:33:40 PM »

My wife and I were pulled over by a cop in Princeton, MN.  The officer advised us that it was because she had turned left on a yellow light.  I would look up the Minnesota statute online, but their site seems to be down right now.

Sounds like you guys were cheated. MN law, according to that PDF, indicates that yellow = warning of red light, not that you must stop.

I thought yellow was always equivalent to red everywhere, in other words, go only if you can't stop. I never make it a habit to enter an intersection when making a left turn on a green ball at a doghouse unless I see a gap in oncoming traffic. To me a sign like that would just be stating the obvious, and of course I still would make the turn on yellow if I ended up in the intersection when the light turned (what's the alternative?)

No no no, yellow in most states = warning of red light, not that you must stop. Drivers Ed often teaches drivers to stop on yellow if possible, but (in most states) you are under no legal obligation to do so. Your only legal obligation is that you don't exceed the speed limit to make the yellow light.

Are you ever honked at for not pulling forward? There's always a gap at the end when the light turns yellow (and then red). In 42 states and DC (and throughout Canada), this is a legal (and practiced) maneuver.



I knew we'd had this conversation before.  Cross-posting from an older thread...

Quote from: Tulsa Code of Ordinances, Title 37, Chapter 6, Section 606 B.
Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the red "stop" signal shall be exhibited immediately thereafter and such vehicular traffic shall not be crossing the intersection or signalized location when such red signal is successively exhibited.

Not exactly uncommon for various places to expect you to be completely out of the intersection by the time the light turns red.  I grew up with effectively the same rule in Oregon.

That law makes no fucking sense. I'm not allowed to enter on a yellow light if my magical gypsy senses tell me the signal will turn red? I'm surprised there aren't more accidents in Tulsa, caused by drivers slamming on their brakes when they see a yellow light, because they have no idea when the light will be red. Here in Washington, as long as I enter the intersection on yellow, I'm good. Period.

Here's an idea, Tulsa: stop micro-managing the meaning of lights. And fix your signals.

For reference, here is how it's worded in the Uniform Vehicle Code:

Quote from: UVC 2000, Chapter 11-202
(b) Steady yellow indication
1. Vehicular traffic facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter.

And here is how it's worded in the MUTCD:

Quote from: MUTCD 2009, Chapter 4D.04
Vehicular traffic facing a steady CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication is thereby warned that the related green movement or the related flashing arrow movement is being terminated or that a steady red signal indication will be displayed immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic shall not enter the intersection. The rules set forth concerning vehicular operation under the movement(s) being terminated shall continue to apply while the steady CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication is displayed.

The highlighted portion is certainly missing from Tulsa's ordinance, but you'll notice that it's also missing from the UVC, and we may assume thereby that it is also missing from most jurisdictions' ordinances.  Tulsa is far from the only place where entering an intersection on a yellow light is considered an infraction.  I remember my wife being pulled over several years ago in Princeton, Minnesota, for entering on a yellow light.  Neither one of us had heard of that being against the law, but the officer informed us that's how it's applied there.  The pertinent law in Minnesota is as follows (also missing the applicable highlighted text above):

Quote from: Minnesota Statutes, Chapter 169.06, Subd. 5
(2) Steady yellow indication:
(i) Vehicular traffic facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic must not enter the intersection, except for the continued movement allowed by any green arrow indication simultaneously exhibited.

I don't see this as being inconsistent with how it's being enforced.  Once the red light is on, the movement being controlled has been terminated and you've had sufficient warning to stop knowing that the movement was terminating.

As I read it, only the MUTCD specifically states whether the green light phase or red light phase is still in force (and it says the green is).  All the other codes I quoted just leave it at "green movement is being terminated" and leave us wondering whether that means the prohibition has already take effect yet or not.  After all, the phrase "is being terminated" sounds a lot like it's already over as soon as the yellow comes on.

In essence, I think Minnesota's statutes leave a yellow light in no man's land:  it means the laws governing a green light have expired, but also that the laws governing a red light haven't come into force yet.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

roadman65

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8686
  • Location: Orlando, fl
  • Last Login: November 12, 2018, 03:53:17 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3892 on: November 12, 2018, 02:48:29 PM »

https://goo.gl/maps/wqDhXacsQYN2
The interstate shields the way they are arranged specifically the I-95 shield.  Of course these will become history when NYCDOT makes I-895 (now officially NY 895) an arterial.
Logged
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8580
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 22
  • Location: Tacoma, WA · Vancouver, BC · Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 09:44:29 PM
Re: Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly
« Reply #3893 on: November 12, 2018, 02:55:13 PM »

In essence, I think Minnesota's statutes leave a yellow light in no man's land:  it means the laws governing a green light have expired, but also that the laws governing a red light haven't come into force yet.

Ahh yes, thanks for pulling this up. But, I don't agree with your assessment.

The law in most (all?) states with the permissive yellow law has this line: "related green movement is being terminated". Note the word "being", not "has been". In effect, the yellow is indicating the green phase is being terminated, not that the green phase has been terminated and now means something else.
Logged

ipeters61

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 256
  • Highway Safety Analyst

  • Age: 24
  • Location: Dover, Delaware
  • Last Login: Today at 09:06:11 PM
    • Personal Website
Logged
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
Instagram

Occidental Tourist

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 327
  • Last Login: Today at 11:57:20 AM


In essence, I think Minnesota's statutes leave a yellow light in no man's land:  it means the laws governing a green light have expired, but also that the laws governing a red light haven't come into force yet.
No, if you know how to read laws, this means that the prior conditions apply until a red light is displayed.  This is further reinforced by the language of sub ii:

Quote
(ii) Pedestrians facing a circular yellow signal, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal as provided in subdivision 6, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway.

In sub ii, the law makes it clear that there’s an additional and exceptional condition that applies to yellows for pedestrians: no entering the intersection.  Under guidelines of statutory interpretation, this additional application of language has two effects.  One, it shouldn’t be treated as surplussage, i.e., surplussage is the idea that legislature simply added the language to sub ii even though it supposedly restates something that the prior text of the law already required.  If the legislature in sub i intended that a yellow meant the movement was immediately terminated for all, then it wouldn’t have added language specifying that the movement could not be begun for pedestrians.

The second canon of statutory construction is that the inclusion of disparate language in one part of a statute but not other parts should be interpreted to mean that the legislature intended a contrary obligation from the intent of the statute in the part where the disparate language was included.  This means that a negative inference should be drawn from the exclusion of language from one statutory provision that is included in other provisions of the same statute.

So where the legislature says in one part of the statute, “this class of persons may not start into an intersection on yellow,” but omits that language as to drivers, the inference is that the omission was intentional and that the legislature intended a contrary obligation for drivers.
Logged

bzakharin

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1447
  • Last Login: Today at 05:53:56 PM

My wife and I were pulled over by a cop in Princeton, MN.  The officer advised us that it was because she had turned left on a yellow light.  I would look up the Minnesota statute online, but their site seems to be down right now.

Sounds like you guys were cheated. MN law, according to that PDF, indicates that yellow = warning of red light, not that you must stop.

I thought yellow was always equivalent to red everywhere, in other words, go only if you can't stop. I never make it a habit to enter an intersection when making a left turn on a green ball at a doghouse unless I see a gap in oncoming traffic. To me a sign like that would just be stating the obvious, and of course I still would make the turn on yellow if I ended up in the intersection when the light turned (what's the alternative?)

No no no, yellow in most states = warning of red light, not that you must stop. Drivers Ed often teaches drivers to stop on yellow if possible, but (in most states) you are under no legal obligation to do so. Your only legal obligation is that you don't exceed the speed limit to make the yellow light.

Are you ever honked at for not pulling forward? There's always a gap at the end when the light turns yellow (and then red). In 42 states and DC (and throughout Canada), this is a legal (and practiced) maneuver.
No, I am not ever honked at as far as I know. And at least NJ's law seems to make it clear that my belief about yellow is at least correct here (NJSA 39:4-105):
Quote
Amber, or yellow, when shown alone following green means traffic to stop before entering the intersection or nearest crosswalk, unless when the amber appears the vehicle or street car is so close to the intersection that with suitable brakes it cannot be stopped in safety
Logged

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 8580
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 22
  • Location: Tacoma, WA · Vancouver, BC · Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 09:44:29 PM

No, I am not ever honked at as far as I know. And at least NJ's law seems to make it clear that my belief about yellow is at least correct here (NJSA 39:4-105):

But that law is also quite clear that you cannot enter on yellow or red unless you physically cannot help it. If you're already in the intersection, having entered on green, you should be in the clear.
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.